WMA in Dist. 7 of KY.

Discussion in 'Small Game Hunting' started by Birdman, Feb 26, 2002.

  1. grouseguy

    grouseguy 12 pointer

    CSS, believe me, I'm not picking on you. I have this very same debate regularly with one of my hunting buddies.

    I understand your beliefs and concerns, but I see a obstacle to early grouse hunting in KY. With the expansion of firearms (ML & rifle) deer seasons, little real hunting remains early for small game. Furthermore, firearm deer seasons will probably be expanded further at todays commission meeting. Most grouse hunters will not take their dogs afield during these periods, I know I don't. So while season is technically open, it is not useable.

    I agree with your theory of grouse being the only "game in town" during February. My suggestion would be to expand rabbit and quail till Feb. 15th at least and preferably through the end of February and begin them after modern gun deer season rather than November 1. To me this would still protect the resource while offering expanded opportunities for hunters.
     
  2. Birdman

    Birdman Cyber-Hunter

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    Feb 26, 2002
    Paintsville, KY, USA.
     
  3. Valley Station

    Valley Station Cyber-Hunter

    Gentlemen ,

    Has everybody seen the article at Ky League of Sportsman website written by Terry Sullivan titled "The strange irony of Little Galoo Island"? If you haven't , you should.
    It's an interesting parallel to the problem with grouse predation by gosh hawks and great horned owls.
    Maybe there is some hope for the Federal Fish & Wildlife Dept., yet!!
    Need to get the beuracrats out of wildlife management!
     
  4. Birdman

    Birdman Cyber-Hunter

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    Feb 26, 2002
    Paintsville, KY, USA.
    Valley Station I checked for the article that Terry done and it wasn't there I would very much like to see it, knowing Terry it's worth reading, if you know where I can obtain it let me know.

    Edited by - birdman on 03/14/2002 8:10:47 PM
     
  5. Valley Station

    Valley Station Cyber-Hunter

    Birdman ,
    When you go to League of Ky Sportsman website , click on articles , schroll down to 3rd article, your there.
     
  6. Birdman

    Birdman Cyber-Hunter

    3,669
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    Feb 26, 2002
    Paintsville, KY, USA.
    Valley Station I done what you said and nothing. I would really like to see that articile. I'll get in touch with Terry and see if he has a copy, thanks.
     
  7. grouseguy

    grouseguy 12 pointer

    I enjoyed the Terry Sullivan article and agree that there must be a place in wildlife management for predator control. Man has altered the environment to such a degree that it is no longer possible for the "balance of nature" to exist without artificial measures to maintain that "balance".

    I also caught the end of a program on Outdoor Life Network last night (3/17/02) that dealt with the positive effects of predator control on some Ducks Unlimited breeding grounds. It was the very first time that I have seen this subject discussed on TV, and was backed up by scientific research. The results were very positive for game populations, and the study only dealt with mammalian "nest" predators. Think what could be accomplished if avian predators could also be controlled.

    It appears that the wildlife biologists are beginning to question some long held beliefs regarding predators, which I only see as a positive for hunters and game animals.
     
  8. GSP

    GSP 14 Pointer Staff Member

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    Dec 12, 2001
    Montrose
    I don't know if you folks read Fur-Fish and Game, but this (April) edition has a very good article on predator control. It post the numbers over the past years showing the differance.
     
  9. Birdman

    Birdman Cyber-Hunter

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    Feb 26, 2002
    Paintsville, KY, USA.
    Some people will tell you that predators are under controll. Under controll my a-- when you see coyotes walking in roads, bobcats sitting in your back yards and hawks sitting on fence post paying no attention to humans. It's past time for doing something.
    For the past 30 years we've sat back and let things go to h--- not only in our hunting but in our daily lives.
    It's time to get in touch with our Sentors and Congressman and get this band lifted on these flying eating machines and start hunting predators. And get our daily lives back in order also.
     
  10. Birdman

    Birdman Cyber-Hunter

    3,669
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    Feb 26, 2002
    Paintsville, KY, USA.
    Grouseguy, GSP, and anyone that's really interested in our WMA's we need to get together and talk and I mean talk. Things almost went to h---. yesterday. Get in touch by e-mail.
     
  11. Birdman

    Birdman Cyber-Hunter

    3,669
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    Feb 26, 2002
    Paintsville, KY, USA.
    CSS the Feb. hunting theory of to many people in the woods because it's the only game in town doesn't hold water up here. It's not like roller skating in a buffalo herd. By that time all of your so called hunters are either watching football games or at the mall with their sweet thing. The only people hunting at that time are true grouse hunters and I'm sure you know what a true grouse hunter is. One that is there because he or she loves the resource and the time alone.
     
  12. CSS archer

    CSS archer BBBC Members

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    Dec 13, 2001
    Central KY
    I think there are many true grouse hunters that also deer, rabbit and waterfowl hunt. The February season concentrates many hunters on public land, this has to negatively impact the breeding birds. I've heard birds drumming in late February. There are more people grouse hunting in February than any other month, you can't argue that. Birds that have survived to February are more likely to make it to nest.

    If the habitat is great the hunting and or predation is a non-issue, because that perfect habitat is too thick to shoot in or to thick for predators to be successful. The problem is - very little of this perfect habitat exists, and it is very short-lived. So having a February season is only going to further impact the breeding population and reduce the potential clutches for the following year.

    I like to hunt February, but I have no doubt it should end earlier for the benefit of the resource. If it ended at the end of January, I would prioritize my hunting more for grouse at that time. As I said earlier, we don't hunt woodcock as they are returning to the nesting grounds, why should we hunt grouse....and if because... is a good enough reason, then why not hunt March as well?

    I appreciate the discussion here, we've all had these before. It seems self-serving to be so intent on Feb. hunting, after all it in no way helps the resource. To evaluate the study in e. KY based on 3 years of data is not at all representative, regardless of the results, it will be subject to many discrepancies.
     
  13. Valley Station

    Valley Station Cyber-Hunter

    How many "true" grouse hunters are there in Kentucky? Anybody got any numbers? Are "human" grouse hunters really having any impact on grouse population?
    I would think the number of hunters who actually have the "grit" to actually hunt is quite low.
    Most people can't take it, the rough grouse country of eastern Ky. "Will seperate the sheep from the goats" , quickly.
     
  14. grouseguy

    grouseguy 12 pointer

    <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    I appreciate the discussion here, we've all had these before. It seems self-serving to be so intent on Feb. hunting, after all it in no way helps the resource.
    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

    CSS, I would like to disagree with your statement in general and the above portion in particular for the following reasons.

    We have all seen the successes in KY with large game (deer, turkey, and now elk). The primary reason these were successful is because there was a dedicated base of hunters who were willing to push for the things necessary to make it happen. They were the ones who had the most to gain or lose, and their passions formulated the ideas, and provided the support necessary to accomplish the fine results that are now evident.

    However, with the continued expansion of (primarily) firearm deer seasons deep into December, small game (especially those pursued with dogs) opportunities are being reduced. I know I will not run my dogs during open firearm deer seasons even though the season is technically open for grouse for obvious reasons. Now if grouse season were to be shortened to January 31 or worse yet December 31 as the Dept covertly wishes, then it no longer becomes economically feasible for a large percentage of grouse hunters to maintain quality dogs and overall grouse hunter numbers decrease. With that decrease in grouse hunter numbers, comes a corresponding decrease in interest and support for grouse issues such as habitat improvement projects or research, which in turn will cause the resource to suffer.

    Therefore, I STRONGLY believe that in KY, February hunting is indeed beneficial to the overall resource because it maintains the interest in the resource necessary to provide for the future of the resource. As strange as it may seem to some...Grouse hunters are the best friend a grouse has, and without a sufficient number of grouse hunters interested in the improvement of the resource and the sport, grouse as a species could cease to exist in the State of KY (especially on public lands) due to a loss of interest and the subsequent loss of habitat, which would occur from simply doing NOTHING.
     
  15. Birdman

    Birdman Cyber-Hunter

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    Feb 26, 2002
    Paintsville, KY, USA.
    Very good statements, the most important aspect of this study is the number of grouse taken by predators with no hunting conpared to birds taken with hunting. The only problem is that the last two years with grouse numbers up they were able to trap and monitor more birds compared to the other four years. With lease than 40 birds being monitored 2 birds can change the per centages dramatically.
    Kentucky has the worst (or best) site to study because of the lack of good grouse habitat and a fewer number of birds. If hunting makes a difference anywhere it will be on Yatesville WMA. And as I stated before in the 3rd year of this study they lost 19 birds with hunting, and in the 4th year they lost 18 birds with no hunting. To me that's not much difference. Hopefully with in a month on the web site ( www. Paintsville.org) you'll be about to see and hear the results of the first 3 yrs. of this study for yourself, and very shortly the last 3 yrs.
    The department has begun habitat mangement for grouse on Paintsville WMA this would have never happened with out grouse hunters in put. And hopefully will continue for years to come.

    Edited by - Birdman on 03/28/2002 1:11:19 PM

    Edited by - Birdman on 03/28/2002 1:14:11 PM
     

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