The Magic Crossbow

[michunter]

I am all for crossbow expansion, I would love to get into the woods more than I do, but in years past when I hunted with a crossbow, people would say well thats the easy way of doing it , well unfortunately thats the only way I can hunt seeing I have a shoulder injury that was fixed but hurts like hell to pull a bow back, so I hope it goes into full swing, Get tired of people thinking crossbows are going to take over and take away from THEIR hunting, GOSH lighten up!!!!!

 

[Rackophrenic Rick]

This is the PM that I received, just so no one feels left out. Which provides for good debate in the mind of one like myself that is still undecided on the issue. Go ahead an dispute. I will leave it up to the individual to disclose himself if he chooses, which I figure he will since he has never had trouble speasking his mind in the past.

Rick
Thanks for showing an interest in the crossbow expansion issue.

First of all you have to know alot of the potentials that are involved with this proposed expansion so let me try to explain them to you if you have a minute.........
Right now there are over 140,000 crossbow hunters that border our state. There are another 50,000 to 55,000 in Arkansas and Georgia to think about as well. We have the earliest opening day for bow season of those states.....What is so attractive to all these hunters including those from Ohio is that Kentucky produces more Boone and Crockett bucks than any of them...In fact over the last 10 years Kentucky ranks 2nd in the number of B and C entries into the record book! Now given the fact that they can hunt a month to a month and a half earlier you can see the potential for a huge influx of hunters coming into Kentucky and taking advantage of the resource that guys like you and your Dad have helped pay for......There was a huge onslaught of ads placed in daily newspapers across south central and western Kentucky for land leasing from folks with out of state phone numbers when this regulation passed last March. Luckily we were able to defeat it and were able to stop loss of hunting land and held down the cost of leasing through our efforts. We have repeatedly asked the KDFW for their opinions on what the expected influx of out of state hunters would be and they have absolutely no idea!

With respect to wild turkey I know you and I have had some discussion about this issue. Here are the facts you can look up for yourself on the KDFW website.....Over the last 4 years the spring turkey harvest has been in decline by 10%. During this same time period turkey hunters have increased 20-25 percent according to Deputy Commissioner Norm Minch. Now 10% doesnt sound like a whole lot over a 4 year period but when coupled with an increase of 20% more hunters you have to wonder why we arent killing more birds every year! The Wild Gobbler mortality rate is about 15% higher than what George Wright, who is revered as the premier wild turkey biologist nationally said it should ever be.....George was the turkey biologist for Kentucky since its inception and some say was solely responsible for reintroducing wild turkey back into Kentucky.....His models for reintroduction, management and mortality studies are all still being used by the NWTF today. The biologist that we have now is degreed in Forestry.
Today there are many experts that think that our turkey flock is in serious peril. We have just witnessed the worst turkey hatch in the last 28 years! There simply are not enough mature gobblers to breed hens.....We have a ton of hens and I wont argue that. We are seeing alot of jakes each spring ( 50% will die within there 2nd winter btw) but jakes cannot breed in there first spring.....They can try but they are not mature enough to impregnate a hen....I thought they could because I have seen them mount hens but they cannot reproduce. I asked the KDFW how many more birds would be harvested from this expansion and again they said we just dont know!

Finally, there are approximately 120,000 bowhunters in the state of Kentucky. There are 4500 to 5000 crossbow hunters with the majority being handicapped hunters. We are not trying to keep folks with a handicap from enjoying the entire bow season.....They already are....Handicapped hunter that want to hunt with a crossbow all bow season can now anyway as long as they get a signed letter from their doctor. By the way there has never been anyone denied by the KDFW to use the exemption so it is a very liberal policy as well it should be.....Now the importance of these facts is this....These numbers reflect almost exactly in percentage where Ohio was 26 years ago. Today Ohio has over 120,000 crossbow hunters and less than 90,000 bow hunters.....Their bowhunters have declined by 25%. They have seen a decline in the number of archery clubs they have there as well as the number of proshops....These facts were revealed by the bowhunter defense department of the IBO.
The bottom line is there has never been this much expansion this quickly for any weapon type. The KDFW has admitted openly that they do not know what the impact will be. They dont think that there will be a sugnificant impact but they simply dont know. Im not willing to sit idle and wait to find out. The resource is the sole most important thing to be concerned for. With out quality deer herds and turkey flocks our sport is doomed....There is no doubt about it.....I again say I cannot take a leap of faith for more revenue for the KDFW to spend......

I hope this has given you some insight and I appreciate you wanting to get involved. If you have any questions about anything let me know and I will be happy to help you find it if I cannot give you the answers myself.

gwhilkerz,
Concerning your question on "why not an influx of non-resident compound hunters?" Just an assumption but I'd say the theory is probably based on the fact that in some states the crossbow hunters out number the bowhunter and also that gun hunters (the largest deer hunting group in any state) are more likely to also be crossbow hunters than bowhunters.

Dennymac, I wish you many days afield but it has been stated many times, for folks such as yourself, you already have the priviledge of using a crossbow due to the disability permit. Not to discount your testimony but there is a difference between using one because you have to and using one because you want to. Not to say because you want to is a bad thing. It is just that the conflict is over the latter.

Watermelon3308,
I think you are correct that the big conflict with most bowhunters is the numbers in the woods. Call it selfish or whatever but truth be known NONE, and I mean NONE of us no matter what our weapon choice is wants to hunt in a woods where every tree has a hunter in it. If anyone says they wouldn't mind I call BS. Deer hunting is not much of a team sport. I have hunted for too long and have seen it to many times. Hunters in general get hot when they are interupted by other hunters, even on WMA's, quota hunts, etc. We all want to hunt un pressured animals without interuption, its just the nature of the beast. So let's not just single out one weapon user as the grinch when it comes to wanting space to hunt.

 

[sirgiovanni]

Dennymac,

You're hunting experiences are an inspiration to me! I have a couple re-curves (not 85lbs. though ) that I really keep telling myself to gain prowess with. Maybe this will be the year.

I hope if you choose to hunt with X-Bow this year you find enjoyment. Personally, I can't pick mine up without thinking about the crossbows history and the changes made to my modern design. I just smile every time I shoot it!

 

[Multidigits]

Rick, not hard to figure who you got the PM from. Let's just say, there's a lot of misinformation in it, so be sure to form your own opinion.

 

[Feedman]

It amazes me,

All of this uproar about a crossbow. Most hunters hunt on private land. You have the option of not letting anyone with a crossbow hunt on the property. Public land is a different story. You have to share with others. Some of us was taught to share when we were little children. Grown ups having to share now are acting like children.

 

[Rackophrenic Rick]

I'd like to see how well all the people who say we "need to share" share in a real life situation. Too many times I have seen guys on public land get in heated arguements over space. Normally it is the result of people not understanding being considerate or first come first serve. I have seen guys that were so bull headed that they would rather completely ruin everyone's hunt to include their own just to prevent from moving on. The crossbow expansion circus will be a minor situation compared to what the lack of land availability will be in a few years. With the disaperence of farm land, state purchases to hord private land, the sure to increase government's ability to to simply acquire land like they have already done in MD, and the false hood that is preached by many that we need more hunter because we're all dying off, it won't be long before we get to see how sharing we all are.

 

[Multidigits]

Again, we need to deal with majorities and minorities. Most people hunt private land. A few people hunt public land, and a few hunt both. I've seen controlled hunting on public land for years as a Area Guide at Ft. Knox. Not once has there been a use conflict in all those years in my area. During bow seasons, more people can use the land than during gun seasons, so issues with users should be low if at all. Plus, those wanting to use a crossbow help pay for those lands the same as anyone else. They should have the right.

I won't address the slide in overall numbers of hunters and trends that show the slide. I think most people understand that they are true and which groups are doing what. In my opinion, we need more hunters fro several different reasons. Most of those reasons are obvious.

 

[aceoky]

Dennymac, I wish you many days afield but it has been stated many times, for folks such as yourself, you already have the priviledge of using a crossbow due to the disability permit.


OK that is outright NOT true.......

He already told you he does NOT fit the criteria for the permit......and he is correct. A doctor has to certify that YOU have a "disability" which prevents you from being able to use a bow......Age, being too weak(women and children) etc. are NOT good enough.....one of the biggest reasons that *I* picked up this banner personally.....fwiw

Also there are many more like this that they won't acknowlege, which has only served to further hurt their(the oppositions) cause......and we've proven it! Why should THEY be left out? Even many injurys won't fit the criteria for the permit, as things are now, with the expansion THEY can enjoy what we all love so much, how it that a bad thing? I submit it's not, it's only fair.....

I won't even bother with the PM, it's not worth the time IMHO to respond.......

WE ALL have a much bigger issue at hand here.......SB 211 IS BAD FOR US ALL.......have you seen any evidence presented by anyone that disputes this? Ask yourself why that is........

I have been asked(a few times in fact now)

IF the "shoe were on the other foot", and SB 211 was FOR the expansions, would I fight this hard against it?........the answer......Even after all I've tried to do to help with getting the expansion passed........

YES without question or hesitation!!

This is much bigger than expansion.......

Things are set up how they are for good reasons, and I can't support a bill that trys to "fix" what isn't broken, and allows those without the proper knowledge, or experience, and may not always have our(hunters) best interest at heart to set seasons, limits and laws on how we can or can't hunt.....it's a "no brainer"......

If you don't think so, ask some Indiana hunters, what it's like trying to get anything done ........ever heck, ask Willie, he can provide some very valuable information on why this bill must die

PLEASE if you value what all we have now, and wish to preserve it as I do for my children and for their children, serioulsy, help defeat this stupid bill. WE are the very envy of many other states, in fact many of them are "trying to copy KY" in what we're doing to improve their own states! Does that sound to anyone , as if it needs to be changed??

It's bad for Ky , it's bad for Ky hunters, it's bad for the resources, it's simply bad all around, AND there is no good that can possibly come from it, again PLEASE, help us to defeat it. Thank you for anything you can do, to help to defeat this in advance.

Now today, my wife and I have been married for 24 YEARS!! Since I will try to make it to 25+ I guess, I'd best get off here(great news for some no doubt)

And spend some much deseved time with my darling sweet hunting bride! Take care all, "see" you soon, and PLEASE, help us all to defeat this very stupid bill.......thank you again.

 

[JDMiller]

Rick...........everything in all your post has been debated many times. I'm not going to go in-depth and try to sell you on crossbow expansion because thats a decision you make for yourself. As far as how many non-residents crossbow hunters will come to Kentucky.....who knows. However I dont think we will be bombarded because with our license structure nothing is stopping them now from coming to hunt with a gun , muzzleloader or bow at the present. I have hunted other states in the past and have a real problem in complaining about someone coming to Kentucky to hunt. In my opinion if it is a problem the KDF&WR need to look at our non-resident fees or impose a lottery..in which I dont particularly like. The non-resident issue has been used as against crossbows since the beginning and if I were hell-bent on coming to Kentucky to kill a B&C buck .....I think I would be more interested in packing a firearm than a crossbow....in which there is nothing stopping them from doing it now.

Our license / tag structure in Kentucky plays a big part on crossbow expansion or at least how I look at it. We have a one buck limit regardless of weapon. If I purchase a tag ......what does it matter if I killed it with a bow, muzzleloader , modern firearm, crossbow or spear for that matter. I take one buck.....I'm done except for doe harvest. If we had license specific tags with different limits based on the methods...in which some states do.... it would be a little different story. I will also add ....again...this would play into the non-resident issues as well......they are not coming here for does. If they decide to hunt Kentucky....all methods attract not just crossbows. Figure in the fact that 90% of all hunting is done on private ground in Kentucky....with the option being of the landowner if he wants crossbows used on his property.......its not going to be that much of a impact as others will lead you to believe.

WMA's are a completly different issue as well that has been used or associated with crossbows. Some are over crowded ....some are not and probably relates more to geographical areas in relation to the locations of our larger cities...equals more users. "IF"... its a problem ....the only way to fix it is either regulate the number of users or provide more public land to hunt. I personally support the latter but it will take incentives and revenue to do it. Crossbows could provide additional revenue to aid in this problem. Either way we need to get beyond the crossbow issue and focus on the real problems effecting us. What someone is using (crossbow or bow) in the bigger picture of things does'nt matter and a lot of the reason a lot of states are thinking outside the box and considering expanding crossbow use.

 

[jerry]

Ace, hope you and the Mrs. have a great day on your anniversary!!!

 

[aceoky]

Ace, hope you and the Mrs. have a great day on your anniversary!!!

Why thank you very much!

Actually we're planning on the entire weekend, IF I get off here, and if I don't , well.......

So....again , I appreciate the thought and all you've done, and please keep it up, family friends co-workers, everyone who will take a couple of minutes to help defeat this bill !

(hint) this bill is unfair to female hunters, who many of which want to archery hunt, but can't use a conventional bow........Everyone..........remember this.......THE BILL is leaving out the disabled(now fixed, but too late I hope), women, younger people, seniors.........guess some don't like many of their voters? ??

 

[JDMiller]

Ace, hope you and the Mrs. have a great day on your anniversary!!!

Same here Ace.........I wish y'all a happy aniversary.

 

[Rackophrenic Rick]

I have been an area guide for 17 years at Fort Knox and see guys get aggrivated every year. Most of the time it comes down to guys walking over top of them that are trying to rabbit hunt for deer while they are trying to hunt from a tree stand and can be seen for several hundered yards away. I won't say that I have had fights break out but I have seen guys leave peed off and I will say it doesn't really tickle me to much either but I understand that its part of the deal.

I too agree that everybody that buys a license has a right to hunt on public land, never said they did not.

Like you said, hunter numbers is not one topic I really care to tackle at this time. All I'll say is we would definitely need to include the availability of hunting land when formulating the equation.

 

[sirgiovanni]

We have a one buck limit regardless of weapon. If I purchase a tag ......what does it matter if I killed it with a bow, muzzleloader , modern firearm, crossbow or spear for that matter.

You said spear! I love you man! But not in that brokedown mountain kinda way. You are now officially number 2 on my hero list.

 

[watermelon3308]

r-rick i understand your point about hunting where theres hunters in every tree no one wants to be in that situation.weather it be gun.bow.or xbow hunters.im not trying to single out anybody.just because they expand xbow season doesnt mean theres gonna be a hunter in every tree.personally i hope they do extend it to give alot of people who for some reason cant hunt with a regular bow the same amount of time and oppritunity the rest of us have to hunt(fair is fair) like i said before i could care less what someone chooses to hunt with.i injoy the seasons we have and if they want to open another season (go for it) thats just another oppritunity i have to hunt.