The Magic Crossbow

[Rackophrenic Rick]

Geeese! I have read and read and read post after post on this whole crossbow expansion topic and yet I just don't get it. Someone please tell me what magnificent magical event will occur if the crossbow expansion becomes or doe not become reality in KY. I see so many passionate supporters and non-supportes burning the all night candle thinking of ways to become victorious. Is it believed that all of the hunting woes in the state will be resolved simply due to an arrow legally being held at full draw for the entire archery season? Or is it that hell will fall on hunting if it does? Please, please, educate me? As a bowhunter I really see neither a huge advantage or disadvantage to the use of such a weapon. In addition I could care less if you pack a bow, crossbow, or a sling shot into the woods come September as long as you stay off my posted property. But what I want to know is what exactly is the huge motivation of the Great Crossbow or Anti-crossbow Cause. I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, I really truely want to know! What is it with this crossbow deal that energizes you guys? By gosh, I know this, if PETA ever hits the right button and gets you guys as fired up as the crossbow expansion has, they are DONE. Trouble is by the time this is done everyone will have pissed them self out and for what? All that will come from this is further division among hunters based on weapons types and that means that the weakest link in the chain will just be that much weaker. Not to mention, I used to think hunters were a bit smarter than the average joe, but I am beginning to have concerns. You guys are beginning to sound like the politicians we all hate.

 

[watermelon3308]

i am 100% in favor of the xbow expansion.i dont understand why some people are crying over it.i could care less what someone chooses to hunt with as long as its legal.its like i said in my other post its like they are crying because someone is using a 7mm-mag and they only have a 270.the way i see it is its just another choice of weapon we have to deer hunt with.no one is forcing anyone to use one its a matter of choice.for those that dont like them.dont use them.those that are in favor of them go for it its as simple as that.

 

[Multidigits]

Geeese! I have read and read and read post after post on this whole crossbow expansion topic and yet I just don't get it. Someone please tell me what magnificent magical event will occur if the crossbow expansion becomes or doe not become reality in KY. I see so many passionate supporters and non-supportes burning the all night candle thinking of ways to become victorious. Is it believed that all of the hunting woes in the state will be resolved simply due to an arrow legally being held at full draw for the entire archery season? Or is it that hell will fall on hunting if it does? Please, please, educate me? As a bowhunter I really see neither a huge advantage or disadvantage to the use of such a weapon. In addition I could care less if you pack a bow, crossbow, or a sling shot into the woods come September as long as you stay off my posted property. But what I want to know is what exactly is the huge motivation of the Great Crossbow or Anti-crossbow Cause. I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, I really truely want to know! What is it with this crossbow deal that energizes you guys? By gosh, I know this, if PETA ever hits the right button and gets you guys as fired up as the crossbow expansion has, they are DONE. Trouble is by the time this is done everyone will have pissed them self out and for what? All that will come from this is further division among hunters based on weapons types and that means that the weakest link in the chain will just be that much weaker. Not to mention, I used to think hunters were a bit smarter than the average joe, but I am beginning to have concerns. You guys are beginning to sound like the politicians we all hate.

For me, it's something different. I've master the bow years ago and want to try something else. And the division that you note isn't our fault if you analyze what has happened in the last year.

 

[JDMiller]

Geeese! I have read and read and read post after post on this whole crossbow expansion topic and yet I just don't get it. Someone please tell me what magnificent magical event will occur if the crossbow expansion becomes or doe not become reality in KY. I see so many passionate supporters and non-supportes burning the all night candle thinking of ways to become victorious. Is it believed that all of the hunting woes in the state will be resolved simply due to an arrow legally being held at full draw for the entire archery season? Or is it that hell will fall on hunting if it does? Please, please, educate me? As a bowhunter I really see neither a huge advantage or disadvantage to the use of such a weapon. In addition I could care less if you pack a bow, crossbow, or a sling shot into the woods come September as long as you stay off my posted property. But what I want to know is what exactly is the huge motivation of the Great Crossbow or Anti-crossbow Cause. I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, I really truely want to know! What is it with this crossbow deal that energizes you guys? By gosh, I know this, if PETA ever hits the right button and gets you guys as fired up as the crossbow expansion has, they are DONE. Trouble is by the time this is done everyone will have pissed them self out and for what? All that will come from this is further division among hunters based on weapons types and that means that the weakest link in the chain will just be that much weaker. Not to mention, I used to think hunters were a bit smarter than the average joe, but I am beginning to have concerns. You guys are beginning to sound like the politicians we all hate.

My reasons differ from Multi's and if you asked everyone involved you will get a different answer. Speaking for myself......the crossbow was a way of allowing me to continue enjoying archery season after being sidelined from conventional bows. I'm 38 and the thought of not being able to bowhunt after 25 plus years of enjoying was not really a option.

However.....As far as the expansion issue itself.....it probably hit home when my daughter started shooting my crossbow...very well I might add. I have tried to raise her in a hunting tradition and if you can relate...girls are probably the hardest to keep involved with the sport. We gun hunt together but she has never got interested in archery or really worked into a hunting weight bow. It very much appealed to both of us to use the crossbow to allow us to spend more hunting time together in the fall. When the expanded crossbow season was rescended neither one of was very happy to say the least. I pretty much decided then to do whatever I could to asist in getting this moving forward. I dont have as much time invested as a few and will always give Multi & Daking credit for keeping on top of things for us. I truely detest the political side of this and some parts of this have really opened my eyes to key issues. As much as we hate it....it does play a vital role in the things we take for granted concerning hunting.

As a sportsmen we dont need to turn a blind eye to whats going on around us. Nor do we need to always depend on others to stand up for us...its our own fault if we stand by the wayside and not attempt to get our views represented. Hopefully all issues will not be as deviding as this one has but I do feel I have made somewhat of a difference or at least presented the issue in a different light.

 

[Rackophrenic Rick]

Let me see if I understand. From what I've heard the reason to support expansion of crossbow use for the entire archery season is so people can use it because they want to, because the feel they have "mastered" the bow and arrow and want a different challenge, because they have a disability, or because they have yet developed the physical ability to use a bow. That's it? So why should I support it? I'm a bowhunter. I already have the ability to hunt for 3.5 months with my bow. Unlike, some others on this forum, I have yet to "master" the bow (after 22 years of bow hunting and 17 years of competitive archery I have only seen a handful of people that could legitimately claim they mastered the bow and arrow. I'm guessing Multi's den could be mistaken for a P&Y/B&C show room and he must keep a trash can solely for the use of disposing all the offers of professional sponsorships that are sent to him daily for being such a master?) I have no disability at this time (you never know what could happen tomorrow but as mention by one of the responders, when that happens I go get a permit to use a crossbow. In addition, my children already shoot bows at age 4 & 5 and by the time they are mature enough to hunt deer with any weapon, they will have the physical ability to bowhunt. So I guess my point is that I really have no use for the crossbow therefore their is no motivation for me to jump on the band wagon.
On the flip side, I was PM'd a response to the original post that did provide a more interesting reason why I should not support it. That being that due to KY having the earliest archery season compared to the states that border us and that KY is second in Record Book bucks, some 150,000 crossbow hunters may just take interest in coming to KY come September. Such a situation could possibly impact my hunting. I could find my lease getting sold to the highest bidder, I can forget trying to hunt WMA's, and regardless I can plan on hunting pressured deer from September until January due to the numbers of hunters in the woods. Deer and turkey are resources that I have paid to have for some 22 years from the purchase of hunting/fishing permits. Not to mention, it is possible that after a few seasons, just the influx of resident crossbow hunters may further impact an already impacted mature gobbler population. Not to hard to choose here!

Bottom line I do not see anything that the crossbow can do to benefit hunting in KY but the more and more I learn, I do see how it will change deer hunting and especially bowhunting greatly. My mind is still open to those that have better reasons? Sell me, convince me.

 

[aceoky]

Rick, with all due respect, there is NO need to "sell you", it's been passed by the Dept's commision(unananmously I might add), the majority want it, (proven fact), and if you've not figured it out already, the one's who don't want it , seem to be willing to stop short of nothing, in a "last ditch" desperate act to try to prevent the inevitable, NOW that the truth has come out completly clearing the Dept from any wrongdoing on this matter, I suspect, the time for anyone "selling" is over........

There is a good reason for my not responding, prior, the time for debate is long over, this has gone on for a year now, those who's minds are "locked", are just that, won't change, no reason to try.....

This is the second time this has been proposed, this time it WILL pass all the tests (or there will be an investigation, I'd be willing to bet on that "no loopholes" at all this time)
The Dept has been trying for over five years to do this, that is their job, not the politicians , regardless, this latest tactic(s), will IMHO "backfire", as all the other ones before have without question have done..., and it's my guess MUCH worse than they could have imagined, we'll have to wait and see how much trouble these tactics end up bringing down on them.....

MY only goal at this time is to defeat SB 211, there is NO good reason for it not being withdrawn(now doubly true), and there is a very short window of opportunity for that to be done IMHO before an official investigation is warrented to check on ethics, misleading the public (who knows what else)...and I have many other things that I consider to be relevent to what has transpired here, all in the name of "revenge" and "punishing " of our Dept.

Niether of which I support, and can't imagine why anyone else would either, there are correct ways of seeking justice, without risking it ALL.......instead, this was tried, and in the end, it will not have been worth it IMHO


Any way anyone wishes to look at it, THEY should have all known the truth, I can't imagine how they didn't , they could have, they should have, either way, they didn't present the facts ........


IF we can't trust the one's who make our very laws, we have much bigger issues here than a crossbow expansion IMHO


And after those facts have came out, how can anyone trust them or support this bill now??



You don't want them, that's your opinion, and your right,to which you're entitiled; the fact is the majority of us do, and in the end, as usual , that is what matters......or should

OPPOSE SB 211!!

 

[Rackophrenic Rick]

Ace,

Sorry, I missed something here. I was unaware that it was a done deal, finished, over with, complete. I thought when that happened people would have came on here celebrating. I thought there was still business to be completed. The KFWD hasn't announced anything on the web site or I just didn't see it.

One other thing. I'm seriously trying to figure out how SB211 will effect anything if the crossbow is a legal weapon for the entire archery season? I hate to sound dumb, but I'm not making any since as to why it needs to be killed. Not to mention why is there even a bill for the issue? Please explain.

 

[aceoky]

Sorry, I missed something here. I was unaware that it was a done deal, finished, over with, complete

First show me anywhere, that I said that.........

I said "time for debate is long over with" (or that is what I meant to imply, sorry if you took it otherwise)

Secondly, and just as importantly, SB 211 would in fact stop this(even after it passes the LRC and becomes law) THAT is the main issue, here, in effect we're transferring IMHO the ability of the Dept to make GAME laws, set seasons and limits, thus giving them away to the politicians........THAT is what SB 211 REALLY does IMHO.....(NOW who's trying to "circumvent" what?)

Which is why regardless of anyone's views on expansion the bill must die...... though there is now a better than average chance it may be withdrawn, with the facts now in the open, I serioulsy doubt the Senators can forget "Orange Day" and the numbers that came out to show we exist, are real, and mean business......

Now it does seem a few are willing to do that and risk everything IMHO.........in order to stop the expansion ;

I seriously doubt they can get much support from others though......they may be willing to cut their own throats for this cause, I would hope most are not........

It's important to realize IF this passes, it's too late to "wish" things had stayed the way they were intended, this is a one time deal, to get this thing killed and quickly, again, though I expect that it will be withdrawn, otherwise I fully expect at least one investigation(maybe more).......I don't think the Senators would risk that, for revenge and punishment, though I could be wrong, if they risk, it I'm betting they lose more than if they withdraw........

Just ask yourself, do WE as hunters want bills passed based upon revenge, when they can do US all damage in the aftermath?

Do we as hunters want wildlife biologists setting our seasons and such, or politicians doing that??

Do we as hunters want, the very things that have gotten us to this point to possibly vanish ? (book bucks etc.etc.etc.)

Some are "pizzed" at the Dept. that is their problem, they've already done the damage to themselves, IMHO, I don't think it wise to let them drag the rest of us down with them....

The Dept may not be perfect, but as Sky said they need to take care of their problems themselves , and two wrongs don't make a right......think about that, and he opposes expansion, AND opposes SB 211 what does THAT tell everyone????

Check for yourselves, I didn't say it, he did, and I again respect his opinion, and all that he's done, and tried to do for Ky hunting.....

Bottom line SB 211 IS bad for all of us, no way for anyone to dispute that fact (anyone notice they're not even trying, nor have they disputed it....)

IF you can support a bad bill, and hurt us all, over something like crossbow expansion, and live with yourselves, I guess that is your perogative, I certainly hope we don't have many who could do that.....

THIS SB 211 will very likely effect more than just crossbow expansion, and since they're on record wanting revenge and punishment for the Dept, I suspect THAT is the ultimate goal, don't be fooled, this is not really about expansion at all, it's much deeper than that, and buckfever even said so, more than once....fwiw

 

[Rackophrenic Rick]

Thanks for the info Ace. I was trying to make sense of it all. I will not set here and say I follow much of the politics, maybe I should but I haven't.

Sorry I took your statement out of context, I really thought there may have been some actual closure to the expansion topic. Regardless of the outcome I'd just like to see someone make a frigin decision. To me the best thing would have been to have a vote by licensed hunters, tally the votes and been done. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Although, from hindsight, I think we should have left well enough alone. The whole thing has caused too much bitterness and division in us as hunters. And division is definitely not what we need.

Just FYI, the reason I started this post is to get better understanding where folks are coming from. Once I understand peoples motivations, I normally become a bit more open minded, that is if the motivations make common sense. Currently, I still don't understand the pro-crossbow motivation but I do respect their right to have a view. If the crossbow does get the nod, I seriously hope it proves a positive to hunting in KY.

As far as SB211 goes, why do you think it ever made it to this stage since it just basically reiterates the old regs? Are the folks in Frankfort that stupid to even consider voting on something that alread exisited?

 

[aceoky]

As far as SB211 goes, why do you think it ever made it to this stage since it just basically reiterates the old regs? Are the folks in Frankfort that stupid to even consider voting on something that alread exisited?

I'm not as qualified as some on here to answer that, but I'll give it my best shot......as I understand things

There is no good reason for anyone to expect the LRC to send back the regs the Dept. filed.......

Therefore the regs would become law for next season, which is the way it is supposed to work....

Well, the opposition, fought the commisioners to the point they lost every "against" vote they once had, and didn't like that one bit, so they went to the politicians for "revenge" .......how can they get revenge like this?

The SB 211 is a "statute" if passed thus supercedes or "trumps" a reg, thus even if passed after the reg becomes law, the reg doens't matter, it's outranked by the statute.......and as far as I can find out this tactic has NEVER been done before, thus it would set a "legal precedent" it appears........THAT is a "very dangerous" thing to us all, IF that happens anytime the Dept makes a Senator upset for whatever reason, they could draft another such bill "to punish" the Dept, who "in their eyes" didn't do things "their way"..........a HUGE can 0 worms none of us can IMHO afford to allow to be opened....

To put it another way, this already exists , yes, but only as a reg , at this point, ask them why they want that changed by a SB....but I'll warn you , you won't like the answer if they're honest with you....THAT is what should raise the 'red flag" for everyone(and did for me), since we already had the reg, why do they want to replace it by a SB? Also, one needs to realize how much harder it is to change a statute than a reg, which IS a serious matter IMHO when it comes to any game management issues that could change(disease for example causes the need to stop a season earlier than intended). Any way anyone looks at it, THIS is a bad bill, ill concieved, not well planned or thought out, and as best that I can figure, at least, soley for "revenge" and " to punish" our own Dept. Which alone would make most oppose it, if or when they find this out ...

As for the expansion, every single state that has expanded, has all positives from it.....another fact, and there is NO data from any of them that even begin to make anyone wonder about resource damage, much less prove that "concern" the oppositon keep bringing up.

...which btw is more motive for them to go to all measures to avoid expansion, I've proven(as well as some others btw) that the data proves this..........so IF the expansion happens, they would look foolish (Mr. Strader included) for saying for over a year , the real reason is concern for the resources.......the data won't back it up......and they know it!

Again , no matter one's position on expansion this stupid SB 211 must die, it could well be it or us.....in the end. IMHO

 

[gwhilikerz]

Rick you began this by asking a simple question. Then you expounded on your position based on something you had been pm'd, not something that we all could read here. You say the crossbow will not advantage you at all, then you go on to state the same old tired stuff about hordes of non-resident crossbow hunters coming to Ky. Do the non-resident compound hunters flock to Ky? Have they harmed the resource any?
I have been a bowhunter for about 40 yrs. I started bowhunting because it was a challenge. I want to hunt with a crossbow during archery season. What is wrong with that? Is it as much a challenge as vertical bow hunting? I don't know, haven't done it yet. But maybe you can tell me exactly what difference my hunting during archery season with a crossbow will make to your deer hunting.

 

[aceoky]

Rick you began this by asking a simple question. Then you expounded on your position based on something you had been pm'd, not something that we all could read here. .

Which, begs the question, IF the "facts", were in fact true, why a PM, not out here where they may be disputed/dispelled, i.e. proven incorrect (if they were)?

Has to make one wonder, why so secret?

 

[Dennymac]

I wish to add my 2 cents, I am 71 years young, still able bodied, I squirrel
hunt, dove and rabbit hunt, turkey and deer hunt, have been doing so for
62 years, with the execption of turkey. I started bow hunting with a recurve,
Bear grizzlie 85 lb no stablizer or sights no arrow rest other than shelf.shot for 30 years took my share of game, but lost the ability to draw
any bow with more than 30 lb draw weight, so I had to stop bowhunting
wait for gun season,not enough of a medical problem to get a disabled permit,
just age and damage caused by the excesive draw weight of my bow { had to be a man}.
So what I am saying is now I can resume hunting in the fall like I used to do, as you get older you will come to know that cold weather is not your friend, and I get to hunt four and a half months like you do,if I want to, NOT 28 DAYS

 

[Multidigits]

We all hope you have many, many more days afield. Git-r-dun!

 

[watermelon3308]

good point dennymac.if you dont already have one get you an xbow and go for it.if i make it to 71 i hope im still able to hunt.some guys on here are crying because xbow season could be in the whole time bow season is in.they say they dont like the ideal of people walking around with cocked xbows during bow season.ok.lets say they split the seasons into two months for bow and two months for xbow.i bet some of them that dont hunt with an xbow would still be crying because their season was shorter so whats their point.they need to get over it and injoy the seasons.and the oppretunities we have to hunt weather it be with bow.gun or xbow.i injoy hunting to much to worry about what weapon everyone else is using.i think some of them sit in their stand and think hmmm i wonder what tom-dick-or harry on the next farm over is hunting with.like i said they need to get over it and injoy the seasons that we have.