Land of 1000 elk.

Discussion in 'Elk Hunting' started by bgkyarcher, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. BigPete

    BigPete 10 pointer

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    Sep 7, 2007
    Whitesburg, KY

    If over harvest is the issue, are not the guides the ones at fault then, even your beloved LMO's?

    Could they not have denied EVERY request for their services to help the population?
     
  2. bgkyarcher

    bgkyarcher 12 pointer

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    BG
    Wow. I don't even know how to answer that. Let me see. Uh, NO, HELL NO. The guides don't set the quotas. They just abide by them. And by self regulating, they helped the herd. Seriously. Yeah, I'm running a business, doing something that I love, working my ass off, but no, I'm going to just stop. Kill all the guide services. Nothing by DIY hunters. You're right, bump the tags to 3000 and let em rip.
     
  3. nutcase

    nutcase 8 pointer

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    Murray, Ky
    i hit a nerve, going to try and be nice
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  4. bgkyarcher

    bgkyarcher 12 pointer

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    BG
    Who the hell is Henley?
     
  5. bgkyarcher

    bgkyarcher 12 pointer

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    BG
    If you'd check the title of this thread, it had nothing to do with anything other than the shape, or lack thereof, of our elk herd.
     
  6. nutcase

    nutcase 8 pointer

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    Sep 27, 2004
    Murray, Ky
    Yes, and as you stated the outfitters will kill everything they can get tags for...so less outfitters=less filled tags=better herd numbers. looks like win win to me
     
  7. EdLongshanks

    EdLongshanks 12 pointer

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    Northern Kentucky
    I have read through the entire thread and have kinda developed an opinion...I think. I've never been selected for an elk hunt and I live in northern ky. I'm pretty ignorant to elk hunting in general. I view the elk herd as a great resource for eastern ky. The outfitting business and elk hunting in general is a great boost to a dwindling economy. If I was to draw an elk tag I would have to employ a guide service because I do not have the time or resources to properly ensure the possibility of success. If the state says I can hunt down there, why would I not hire a local to help me out? Why would it be his fault that he is helping me achieve a dream come true, while he is earning a living? If the state issues "X" amount of licenses and the population goes down from over harvesting...the blame falls squarely on the states shoulders.
     
  8. Rage2

    Rage2 6 pointer

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    Aug 18, 2008
    SOMERSET KY
    Wow-- I will respond and be done.. First of all LMO harvest 3 more today.. Now as far as BG he is been lucky to draw 2 times on ky elk.. And he has made more than 3 trips ... As you know he thinks a lot of me and LMO enough said.. He is a great guy and a friend as all that choose LMO .. I am surprised by some of you on yur comments you have made or at least a few that I know , the other I will ignore, except for "nutcase" please feel free to call me or posted with facts that LMO has screwed anyone over .. You don't know me or my business ... That's the first time I have ever heard anyone say anything about me or my business. I would like to discuss that with you anytime. I never hide behind my forum name u can look at any of my past post it will have my name on it... Now to the point !!
    All he was trying to get to is that the numbers are down and they are . I have been involved with ky elk since day 1.. I do guide/own operate a outfit.. I work with kdfw almost daily and help them all I can.. They do a great job but we all make mistakes and sometimes we have to go back and redo things.. We all have been there.. All this sounds like is a bunch of jealousy towards guides.. One- Iam not getting rich nor is it about the dollars... Believe it or not).. I do charge more but offer more than most.. That's not a knock on others for Iam friends with most other outfitters and help them out as well when needed @ no charge.. Iam fortunate enough to have a place to put hunters up were they can come and experience a dream hunt.. I agree that others are just as successful LMO and that's great for there are more people that need help than I can take. I turn them away every year... And Sam Taylor you have sent me hunters and I apprciate it.. If you ever followed up with them Iam sure they told you what a great hunt we gave them and experience ..but the fact is some of you have not been out in the field for a while and that's a fact . Am I not correct???? Please correct me if Iam wrong . Iam out everyday or have my guides out.. Again we do provide lodging, meals, taxidermist , meat processors , ect.. other outfitters base What they charge by what LMO charges.. So they have to be a little cheaper for the hunter is out of pocket for meals, hotels, gas and miles on there own truck. Also they do not get the camp experience.. It's the hunters choice on whom they choose and Iam ok with others charging less for several of them and call me and ask what Iam charging . I have nothing to hide.. Also the last time I checked all other outfitters out LMO was the only outfitter that had a registered business with the state and federal, also I pay big money for a huge policy incase of a accident.. That protects me and my clients.. So for you that don't know me iam not doing a fly by night operation.. Iam straight up with anyone for that's the way I was raised... And some of you and your comments have no ideal about a business nor could run one. See - with a business comes a profit and loss statement knows as a P&L statement ..pay guides ,gas , insurance , leases, rent , food ( and trust me we eat good) try about 7k+ each yr just for that..and less not forget about Uncle Sam at the end of the yr.. Again LMO is a straight up operation .
    Know I have 8 yrs of numbers and facts about our elk herd... For someone to say well a guide should not take people out is just CRAZY' think about it.. So those who need help and gets drawn let's turn them loose in the field I let them shoot multipal animals.. See I control a lot of lost animals and trust me I get plenty of no so experienced elk permit holders .. I see all kinds ... Doesn't make them a bad person but it happens. I am beyond blessed to get to guide and meet great people.. I love doing it..
    So those that don't know I have managed or try to mange were I take my animals and how many in each area. See I actully guide in all units .. Anyone shocked??? Ya all but Lea caney and it will not exist next yr.. When I take on clients my biggest portion of harvested animals are split between mostly 3 units.. South, north, and Lea hazard. So yur theory that LMO killed them all in one unit- well yur wrong!!!
    see I solit it for I have my guides that help me know different areas or county's . That helps lmo out a lot and keeps us from over killing . I could go on and on ..yes the elk are wiser and have gotten smarter but they are a grazing animal.. Numbers are down I have the foot travel to prove it.. When yur cover 4 units u get a pretty good ideal.. Yes we have plenty of elk still but we can't keep this rate up for quality of bulls harvested are not going to be so good.. Last 3 years quality has suffered.. Do we still have some big Bulls yes , just not as many...facts- 250 bull permits, 38 land tags,10 youth tags and 10 commissioner tags.=308 buls. Now let's take in to consider poaching which has increase a lot in the last 2 yrs., wound lost, brain worm and a few hit by cars on the road . Safe to say we loose 400 Bulls each yr.. Again why can't you understand the herd and quality will suffer..again it's not going in the rt direction.. Yes we have elk in the timber that are not coming out but I don't think its 10000.. Again this is just my opinion and mine only.. I hope I am wrong!!! But what if - just what if Iam am correct ??? I rather take the conservative approach and if Iam wrong the we have more elk and that's great.. But if we don't and the numbers are done it may be to late!!! That's all BG was stating and trying to get across for he listen to what we say and also seen it first hand himself...again Iam out there and have enjoyed elk in ky I would like to see this thing grow and have what others don't. And oh- me wanting to cut tags back - which kdfw did last Friday for next yr.. Not many but I appreciate the start...its a step in the rt direction. Lots of change coming next yr and a lot of great things happening!! Cut tags by 100 all cows.. 30 bow tags and 70 rifle tags. Me wanting to cut tags is not a way for me to raise my price!!! I didn't understand that one either.. My price will be same no matter how many tags...and for you that made that comment - I ask you to call all outfitters now to get price and compare this time next yr.. Why??? A lot of them that were trying to do this for the money will either have a higher guide fee or will no longer be around. Yes I had 3 outfitters wanting me to take there hunters for they could not find a cow.. Fact!!!! And yes it was harder hunting but more fun for all.. They got a hunt this week and will remember it... If you have a tag for next week - driving around will not get you tag punched.. Better put some walking boots on... And enjoy..update for LMO for this yr.. 38 Bulls (rifle and bow) 18 cows.. (Rifle and bow)
    Again thanks for reading and I hope this helps out a little. Feel free to call me to discuss elk herd, my operation, my friends or what ever u feel u need to get off yur chest. We all have bad days - trust me I understnd but one thing I won't do is talk out both sides of my mouth!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2014
  9. Rage2

    Rage2 6 pointer

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    SOMERSET KY
    Also for the record - or I mean kdfw records.. Only 25% of drawn hunters hire a guide... Or at least that's what the % was last season that they shared with us outfitters at the guide meeting...
     
  10. trust me

    trust me Troubled Loner

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    Jerkwater, KY
    Let's forget about antlers and camp experiences and such for just a moment...there is an important factor nobody here wants to recognize, and that's the fact that elk are a pest for the residents of the area, and the reason tag numbers went up and elk were trapped and relocated is that folks are getting darn tired of them destroying their yards and fruit trees. Not to mention their vehicles...

    It's all great and good to be like some folks from out of the area and swing by a couple of times a year and ooh and ahh at the dead elk and eat elk liver and set by the elk fire at the elk camp and speak of all things elk, but for the folks in Floyd and Knott that have to live with the things, it's not quite that romantic. The dirty little secret is that the locals are totally fed up and are taking matters into their own hands and the KDFWR knows it and can't do a thing about it except try to cut the herd and alleviate at least some of the problems.
     
  11. birdshooter

    birdshooter 6 pointer

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    Jan 22, 2012
    Greenup Ky
    Has anyone on here thought to ask the grouse guides what they did with KDFW to help bring the grouse back in their decline. Those lucky recipients of the draw or wealthy enough to buy a tag and want something to complain about, get you a bird dog and hit the hills of the grouse zone and see what that hunter success rate is. I bet if you would try grouse hunting in this state you would quit complaining about the success rate in elk hunting and probably sent you friends in Frankfort a nice donation for keeping you prestigious elk hunt in Kentucky.
     
  12. buckfever

    buckfever 12 pointer

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    Oct 25, 2002
    Harrods Creek Ky, USA.
    Here's the dilemma. Rage2's outfit is responsible for 58 elk harvests this year in its area, and he says that only 25% of hunters hire an elk guide. The total elk harvest, according to BG, is 337 elk. That means that one guide alone has been responsible for nearly 20% of the entire state harvest. Screaming6x6 alludes to the fact that other guides are just as successful.

    All of this would tend to suggest that guides (whom scout year round) have a distinct advantage over John Q. Public Hunter that goes to E Ky for a week on a DIY excursion. It would seem that guided hunts (from a dozen or so ??? outfitters) represent an overwhelming % of the actual elk harvests, and because of declining herd numbers, drawn hunters end up having to pay the guides to the tune of several thousand dollars or end up going home empty handed.

    Now, after elk cow numbers have apparently fallen, these same guides are lobbying KDFWR to lower the number of elk tags available to the public. This angers me beyond belief.

    If elk numbers are indeed down, a better fix would be to actually increase the number of elk tags available to the public, but simply ban paid guided hunts. This would create more opportunities for the general public (because more people would get drawn), but the harvest would still decrease, because the hunters wouldn't have the advantage of using guides whom scout year round.

    Here are the pro's: It would reduce the cost to the public hunters taking advantage of their opportunity, because they wouldn't be forced to hire a guide to be successful. It evens the playing field. The regional economic impact would be negligible and more diffuse. More drawn hunters would travel to E KY out of season to scout their areas. This results in positive economics for hotels and restaurants in the area. Right now, instead of going to the area themselves beforehand, they simply pay the guides to do all that for them, because it's easier to have them scout for them. It also would spread the economic wealth around. Instead of concentrating all that money in the guides (for scouting, food and lodging), it would provide a broader impact to other businesses in the area.

    The Cons: It obviously would not be good for guides, and the success ratio for this "once in a lifetime" elk opportunity would also drop.

    If guides or KDFWR want to go down the road of trying to screw over the public hunter by limiting the number of public tags, there will be a lot of very upset public hunters out there, myself included.
     
  13. Rage2

    Rage2 6 pointer

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    Aug 18, 2008
    SOMERSET KY
    Trust me--- I agree with you .. We have had plenty fences down on the farm and have made plenty repairs .. Have had family cemeterys stomped and headstones turned over.. Kdfw will and has fixed those in the past.. Now as far as relocating elk yes they have and some have been as far away as Missouri .. And that's not all that bad.. The last few years I have not and most locals don't even see the elk damage anymore in our yards and hay bottoms . They have gotten smarter correct ? So they have figured out to stay in the timber and there all eating acrorns still.. So we should be having any problems in our yards at this time. Those that are having trouble should work with kdfw and get this out to all drawn hunters so they can go help with the problem at no charge and no guides/ outfitters to take advantage of.. Let those DIY hunters help. But the dang problem is the ones complaining about them are the very land owners that won't let you kill them.. So go figure.. Listen I was born and raised here .. I know and Iam involved way more than some may think .. Iam trying
    G to help all .. If some landowner is having a problem they don't need to take matters into there own hand and say well I will take care of them myself.. Not the rt approach.. Kdfw will help and I say that for I have seen them in action .. And as far as the grouse it's my understanding that were trapping more elk to trade for grouse -- ya that's rt so yur grouse hunting should get better for a little while.. Just try to get to get out and hunt them quick for yur success rate should go up... And try to hunt more of possible- the more yur out there the higher yur success rate will be.. Also try to kill them before the coyotes get there bellies full... 50 to hundred Elk for grouse --- I sure hope we get a lot of them and if you have great dogs I do love to hunt grouse and would like to join you .. I really mean that.. I really like any hunting and grouse hunted a lot back in the day .. I just hope we get thousands of grouse for 50 or more elk..
     
  14. Rage2

    Rage2 6 pointer

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    Aug 18, 2008
    SOMERSET KY
    Buck fever- I really don't understand yur thinking.. Iam sure yur a great guy and have no problems with yur thoughts.. Again the problem for drawn hunters is access to public hunting.. It's a huge problem... We don't have enough public hunting and what we do have just don't hold elk . Kdfw lost arch mine when they sold out so that's why there is o public hunting in the Lea hazard area.. You can find a place to hunt if you ask around so go for it.. If the outfitters didn't work there arse off to land places to hunt and it's not free -- just what would those that are willing to pay a guide do??? Just donate 20 each yr and not hunt at all.. Again yur just not up to date on all of this and that doesn't make u a bad person. Call me I will explain any question I can and again that doesn't make me correct on everything I think either...cutting tags just means better opportunity for you guys next year and going forth.. And makes it better for u not to have to hire a guide.. Iam happy with 10 or 50 I don't care either way.. But I will be involved with the elk either way... Cutting tags tags nothing away from you -- if I want and bases everything on numbers of clients don't u think I would be jumping up and down to raise tag numbers up-- heck that's means I could book more-- no that's not the ideal.. I just want a conservative approach until we know for sure we have 10k elk in the timber. If so after next tr lest raise tag permits to 1500 or 2000....
     
  15. BigPete

    BigPete 10 pointer

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    Sep 7, 2007
    Whitesburg, KY

    Ding, ding, ding!!

    That's the most accurate elk post on this thread!!
     

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