Hey, we made it to # 1

Discussion in 'Politics' started by bondhu, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    Its pretty obvious you didnt google anything or try to check any facts. Just pushing your party platform. I dont know whether you read all the previous comments leading up to when you started commenting or not. I doubt it.I think if you had you would have seen that KRS went through some reforms already .Anyone hired 2014 or later no longer has the defined benefit pension system.Whether you are Republican or Democrat it shows nothing but partisanship when you blame all on one party.Its been a two party under funding effort.. The pension problem wasnt much of a problem until the state Senate came under Republican control. In fact in 2001 the KERS NH fund was at more than 125 percent. Thats the one down around 12 or 13 percent now. I am still trying to locate the figures prior to that. One of the main culprits in this whole deal was Pattons budget director James Ramsey that later became U of L president. He helped get U of L in a mess as well before he was kicked out. Anyway the pension funding has steadily decreased since then for KERS NH. I think when Fletcher came in to office it was somewhere above 85 percent. When Fletcher left it was around 52.5 percent.Fletcher did take heat for not funding and people were raising flags every step of the way even under Patton. The media just didnt pick it up and widely report it.When Beshear left office in 2015 after 8 years it was around 15 to 16 percent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  2. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    Can you show me where you got the $80 billion dollar figure? As I said before that is extremely exaggerated. This article ( https://www.kentucky.com/news/polit...6ClH5zy8iNXIhr0T0FeSzs8RUDG_PTwdL3MR_7gS27SSc ) and it mentions Bevin as well as people in his administration say that its $23.5 billion in KRS. KRS includes 5 systems KERS Non-Hazardouss, KERS Hazardous, CERS, CERS Hazardous, and the State Police System. That does not include figures for the Kentucky Teachers Retirement System (KTRS) which is completely separate. I know the Legislators fund is around 95 to 97 percent funded. Not sure about Judicial System but I am sure it above 90 percent.
    I think when you throw in all the systems under funding you will come in under $50 billion and possibly $40 billion. Like I previously said that money isnt due now--its due paid out over decades.
    I want to think KERS- NH is around $13.5 billion in the red. I do believe this may be the first year in a long time that KERS NH will actually take in more money than it pays out. However with more people retiring and I think with this just passed legislation that could change very quickly.
     
  3. EdLongshanks

    EdLongshanks 12 pointer

    10,492
    5,757
    Nov 16, 2013
    Northern Kentucky
    $23 billion is estimated by the communists to be the bare minimum. Are you cherry picking?
     
  4. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    The article says Bevin and other GOP backers say $23.5 billion. You know mortgages dont work either if you dont pay your bill. Are you another one just touting the party platform to heck the facts? Like I said I am also a Republican but I call em like I see them. I once had one of the current House Republican legislators say in a meeting "we didnt cause this problem." Being courteous I let them finish and then I corrected that person and let them know otherwise. They started backtracking.
    Defined benefit pension systems do work if you pay the bill like you are supposed to. Just look at Tenn, South Dakota, North Carolina, Oregon and a few others.Retirement contributions should be figured as a cost to the system since it is a necessary expense and should be built into the budgets. Not paying the amount required does not go away. Just like paying your mortgage --underpay it and it keeps adding up and getting bigger and bigger.
    Some of you say the systems have to be changed. KRS has already underwent changes in the 2013 legislation session.Also no COLA's have been given in KRS since 2011 that I know of. KTRS which is the teachers system and is still a defined benefit system. Many of you say it also needs to be changed but pay the people already in it what they were promised.They should get what they were promised.
    One of the big problems with HB1 passed in the special session is that people that have already been in the system for the quasi groups have worked for 15 to 25 years maybe more.Those people may very well get kicked out of the defined benefit system and in to a 401 k if their employer decides to leave KRS. Lots of these people make less than $35000 a year or less. You think they really have much money to put in a 401k that will amount to much by the time they retire? Also HB1 will add another $827 million dollars expense to KRS and does nothing to address the unfunded pension liability.
    I dont have to cherry pick anything. Theres a huge orchard out there. Everyone keeps calling these pensions a promise. Actually its a matter of contract law and was ruled as such by the Ky Supreme Court. I think it was in 1995.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  5. EdLongshanks

    EdLongshanks 12 pointer

    10,492
    5,757
    Nov 16, 2013
    Northern Kentucky
    1. The mortgage analogy is a major fallacy for far too many reasons to list. A “functional” Ponzi scheme is much more accurate.

    2. Defined benefit pension plans provided by the government do not work. Look no further than the current garbage heap that we find ourselves in as evidence. Private businesses that don’t have the luxury of running a deficit phased out the systems decades ago.

    3. To suggest that we merely need to “adequately” fund the program defies basic logic and math.

    4. The system HAS to be changed because it’s a raging dumpster fire for the state.

    5. I don’t care who caused the problem...only who has the wherewithal to fix it. The democrats clearly have more culpability because they are the obstructing any attempt to fix the issue and provide no real solution whatsoever.

    6. Cherry picking.

    Kentucky Pension Systems are in Crisis
    • The Commonwealth currently has $33 billion in unfunded pension liabilities (pension debt) across its pension systems, as reported in pension plan annual reports as of June 30, 2016. That amounts to $10,330 for every Kentucky age 18 and older.
    • The true amount of unfunded pension liabilities is likely much greater:
      • Kentucky's pension plans have long used overly aggressive assumptions about investment returns, inflation, mortality, and payroll growth.
      • Using more conservative assumptions, the actual amount of unfunded liabilities for Kentucky's combined pension plans is likely between $62 billion and $82 billion across all eight plans. Based on the more conservative $62 billion amount, that is almost $20,000 for every adult residing in Kentucky. Compare the U.S. Government's almost $20 trillion debt that is just over $80,000 per adult.
      • This is roughly seven times Kentucky's annual General Fund spending.
    • Beyond the $33-82 billion in unfunded pension liabilities, Kentucky's also has approximately $6 billion in unfunded retiree healthcare liabilities.
    • Pension debt is weighing down the Commonwealth's credit rating:
      • Standard & Poor's ranked Kentucky as having the worst aggregate pension underfunding among the 50 states.
      • Moody's Investors Service recently ranked Kentucky as having the third-highest net pension liability as a percentage of governmental revenues among the states.
      • The Center for Retirement Research at Boston College found that Kentucky has the third-highest pension-related budget burden in the nation.
    • Even in years where the plans have received the full actuarially determined amount, payments towards unfunded liabilities have been less than interest accrued, meaning the Commonwealth's pension plans have been falling further behind every year.
    • Previous attempts to change benefits or actuarial assumptions have not been enough to save Kentucky's pension systems.
      • The combined KRS plans were 100% funded in FY2002, and the TRS plan was nearly 90% funded.
      • Those funded ratios have since collapsed due to the back-loaded funding formula, negative amortization, underfunding required contribution rates, investment underperformance, and actual experience deviating from the complicated actuarial assumptions.
      • Previous changes made to TRS have not robustly addressed the funding challenges and TRS' unfunded liabilities have increased nearly 600% since 2002. The previous changes have not put TRS on a path to solvency.
      • Previous changes made to KRS — including the creation of a cash-balance plan for new hires in 2014 — have not materially changed KRS's insolvency risks for retirees or other active members.
    • The pension plans have had negative cash flow (outflows exceeding inflows):
      • KRS has had severe negative cash flow of over $100 million every year since FY2002, while TRS has had negative cash flow nine of the last 10 years.
        • Negative cash flow requires liquating investment assets to meet current payouts. This reduces a plan's overall market performance (there are fewer assets on which to earn returns) and threatens plan solvency.
      • The KRS plan for non-hazardous state workers had just under $2.0 billion of assets on hand at the end of FY 2016. That is enough to cover two years (783 days) of benefit payments.
     
    drakeshooter likes this.
  6. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    Thanks for the source. At least you have some. Unlike some on here. Also one thing I need to correct from the other day. I thought the Governor appointed 10 members of the 17 member KRS Board of Trustees. Actually he appoints 11 of the members. 2 are elected members from KERS, 1 elected from SP, and 3 are elected from the CERS system making up the other 6 members.


    The cash crisis in KERS-nonhaz is not a result of unaffordable enhancements to benefits.The unfunded liability was manageable until recent years, but as an inevitable result of the chronic employer underfunding and the stock market crash of 2008-09, the unfunded liability doubled. During that same time, benefits have been reduced – through eligibility changes for new hires in 2008, the end of cost-of-living adjustments (COLAs) for retirees in 2012, and the elimination of a defined benefit plan for new hires in 2013

    An insolvent fund would have to be replenished by some means, such as borrowing, cuts in other programs, or increased taxes. Not paying promised benefits is not an option.The Kentucky Supreme Court ruled in 1995 that benefits must be paid as a matter of contract law.
     
  7. Rob DeHaven

    Rob DeHaven 10 pointer

    1,453
    576
    Apr 19, 2006
    on the road
    I have asked this before but there was no response. If pensions don't work then why is the pension system for the legislators around 97% funded. No one seems to think that it's wrong that theirs is doing so well yet all the others are in such bad shape. So which party is responsible for it being 97% funded?
     
  8. bondhu

    bondhu 12 pointer

    2,997
    2,195
    Jul 3, 2015
    Battle Run
    Both parties are responsible Republican and Democrat but the difference in them and the teachers. The parties were watching their pension and the teachers were expecting Frankfort to watch theirs for them. I guess in a way they did that's probably where their 97% came from. You would think educated personnel would have been storming the capital back in the 90's when they were being robbed.
     
    drakeshooter likes this.
  9. I’m lost here a little I guess, are the pro-pension side people here arguing that the state should remain in the retirement investment planning business? Because that’s the argument here in case you think anybody here wants to rob your pension lol. I want everybody vested to remain as is and get what’s promised to them but today, going forward new hires go in a privately managed 401K and non-vested employees should be moved to one. I don’t believe the gooberment should be retirement planning (or in the healthcare business but that’s another subject) for obvious reasons and frankly I can’t imagine any sane person believing they should be after this fiasco and other examples across the country. Not to mention social security and it’s impending insolvency. It’s like you want the fox guarding the henhouse, it makes no sense. Why should the taxpayers shoulder the risk for being on the hook any longer for others’ retirement? If you want to bitch I want to bitch too lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
    bondhu likes this.
  10. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    I dont know if you re comment is directed towards me or not. I guess I would be included. Several on here are saying change the systems. Well KRS has already been changed beginning Jan 1 2014 though we still have people working that are paying into the old retirement and are yet to actually retire yet. Anyone hired after 2013 is in a new system and it isnt a defined benefit system. KTRS (Ky Teachers Retirement System) still has the defined benefit system.

    You say you want people already hired to get what they were promised. I do to.Well HB1 that just passed in the special session will not allow those people working whose employer leaves the KRS system to get what they were promised. It would be changing the rules in the middle of the game.They would get to keep what they have earned up to that date in their retirement. However going forward their money would go into a 401k. Some of these people have worked 15 to 25 years in these jobs and to be thrown out in their most productive earning years and into a 401k would not be right.Also some of these are lower paid people. The amount of money they make would not allow them to put aside enough money in order for a 401k to earn very much. Leaving KRS would cost some people a hundred plus thousand dollars or more during their retirement years. HB1 Is actually illegal and would or will end up in litigation. 401k's were not intended to be sole retirement plans. Even the guy that came up with them said so. They were intended as a tax shelter for wealthy individuals.
    There are several states and cities that have scrapped defined benefit pension systems and turned to a 401k or something else. I think West Va, Alaska, and there are several others. Because of that change people left and due to the low salaries and benefits they couldnt hire and keep enough people. Some states have actually returned and went back to the defined benefit retirement systems.
    I will say this. If they end up changing from having any defined benefit systems in Ky they will have to up salaries quite a bit as well as offer other better incentives. Most people went to work in these jobs previously due to a steady retirement pay and the health care benefits.

    Here is some of the latest news today concerning state government..
    https://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article233255121.html
     
  11. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    I venture to guess both parties made sure their retirement system was well funded. I dont think they would want to throw their funds into KRS right now but they would probably do a better job of funding the other systems if they did.
     
  12. Saying we will need to up salaries is a no brainer and why we are in this mess to begin with. Pay what the market dictates and let citizens (and their local school boards if they so choose to match 401K contributions) worry about their own retirement as the gooberment can’t do it.

    PS 401Ks may not have been intended for whatever but that along with personal investments is what is offered to us private pukes so welcome to our world.
     
    bondhu and 300winmag like this.
  13. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    I dont agree that salary increases are what caused the pension problems. In some cases state employees have not had a raise in 7 or 8 years. Not paying the ARC in to the retirement systems timely is what caused the problem. Defined benefit pensions are not that expensive if payments are made when they should have been. If ARC payments are not made as they should be not only do you not get that money, you also lose the returns that missing money would have made over the longer period of time it would have been invested.
    Also I cant remember the source but seems I read that some businesses still offer a pension system for their employees. Also some states and cities that had went away from defined benefit pensions are actually coming back to them due to not being able to fill the jobs. Ky now has a shortage of teachers and just this morning paramedics are not as available as they once were. Pay was cited as one of the main factors.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
    grouseguy likes this.
  14. Feedman

    Feedman Cyber-Hunter

    9,763
    2,356
    May 28, 2003
    In the basement
    We still have the question of why would governors an legislatures not fund the pension systems. These systems represent a large number of voters. Did they use the money's for pet projects an entitlement programs? You would think that the pension system would be the first priority not the last.
     
    bondhu likes this.
  15. Davidlondon4

    Davidlondon4 10 pointer

    1,996
    10
    Dec 2, 2004
    Laurel County
    Yes it was used for pet projects and also to fund the every day running of state government. Look around at all the new judicial centers. I am not sure all of the money for those came from the state. But one thing I know. Every single one of those judicial centers had to be approved by the state legislature before they could be built. These buildings once built and turned over to the counties also have extremely high maintenance cost. They were too extravagantly built and some were not even needed.
    Also until last year when the tax on services was passed I think it may have been all the way back to around 1990 since a tax increase that affected everyone had been passed. Not 100 percent sure of this. Think about this? How have we built all those new buildings, swimming pools,parks,etc in the last several years without a tax increase. Many of the these last projects that were built over the last several years had to get money from somewhere and many of them were built during the under funding of the pension systems. The public is continuing to demand more and better services but no one seems to want to pay for them.
    I once watched a lady in her late 60s to early 70 in tears ask a still in office state senator "why dont you all pay your payments to the retirement systems before you spend money on special projects? I think
    Also claiming their year end surpluses is sometimes exaggerated. All had to happen is for money to be moved around. Anyway I am not sure that it happened this year but in some of the this administration and past administrations and it has this employee checks at that time have been delayed until the first few days in July. The reason: their last monthly check would not count against any budget surplus. This created havoc with employees that had automatic payments taken out of their check. Some ended up in the red due to this and had to go through all kinds of hoops to get this straightened out. All because politicians wanted to claim a surplus or a bigger surplus.FYI state employees usually get paid on the 15th and the 30th of each month. If one of those days hits on a weekend they would get paid the Friday before.
    One thing I wish people would do. Take a day and go to the legislature and go in the Capitol Annex where legislators offices are. I think you would be shocked! Be ready to basically knock the lobbyists out of the way to get through the crowd. The lobby outside the legislatures office is usually swarming with people wearing 3 piece suits and carrying leather briefcases. Frankly lobbyists own Frankfort now and many legislators are beholden to them. Lobbyists write bills and ask legislators to sponsor them. There are usually 700 to 800 lobbyists registered during a 60 day legislative session.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice