Due to popular requests..kyhuntings first bible study thread

Discussion in 'Community Forum' started by stevenvalleyagain, May 5, 2016.

  1. Carl

    Carl 12 pointer

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    Most of us are guilty on this one. I know I am.


    Luke 6:37King James Version (KJV)

    37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
     
  2. Brsutton86

    Brsutton86 12 pointer

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    Probably the most difficult thing too follow. Definitely a weak point for me, even in trying not to.
     
  3. EC

    EC 12 pointer

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    Essentially this is telling us to not judge others for the same things we're doing or worse...as the passage expands the context in verse 39:

    39 He (Jesus) also told them a parable: “Can the blind guide the blind? Won’t they both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

    41 “Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but don’t notice the log in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself don’t see the log in your eye? Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck in your brother’s eye.
     
  4. Iceman35

    Iceman35 12 pointer

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    Probably because those verses are taken completely out of context, and are applied to a modern, western view of slavery and marriage. The bible does say involuntary slavery is an abomination.

    Slavery in those times was mostly voluntary. More like indentured servitude to pay off a debt, or just to get a better life. Outside of the Roman Empire, which practiced involuntary slavery, the Hebrew version of Slavery was basically like having a job. There are literally dozens of verses on how to treat your "slaves". The verse on beating your "slaves" is a in the middle of God setting down a series of penalties so to speak, for violating his law. It does not, in any way, condone the act.

    The part on "selling your daughter" is the same thing. It's basically paying off your debt by allowing your kid to work for someone. The same verse even says after a period of time, the "owner" is to treat her like their own daughter. Not a wife or hooker, but as an equal.

    The bible must be read as a whole, with the understanding of the world in which it was written. It's not a book of one liners.
     
  5. EC

    EC 12 pointer

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    The Mosaic laws, so called, were intended for a different people for a different time... Peter was specifically told, 3 times, that anything was permissible to eat. That reference is noted previously in this very thread. As Jesus told us He was the new covenant. You are not required to sacrifice a perfect lamb because Jesus was the perfect Lamb...in fact, John the Baptist proclaimed, "Behold--the Lamb of God". Meaning He was our sacrifice. And relating to what food you may eat it was described to Peter three times, "...what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

    You'll note, for the First Passover--the Hebrews were instructed "not to break the bones" of the lamb that they applied it's blood to their doors--so the angel of death would pass over them (like so, the blood of the Lamb will save you from death and it passes over you). This, like many other examples of the Hebrew traditions and protocols reflected a hazy picture and disclosure of the Messiah...as the Lamb of God did not have one broken bone while on the cross--which breaking bones was the typical practice while being crucified.

    But you've been released of the sacrificial rituals required in the Old Testament...because those have been fulfilled by the very fact that Jesus satisfied those requirements (again, these "rituals" intended for another group of people for a different time--who were supposed to have been a "priestly nation"). You've been released from the requirement of "clean" and "not clean" specifications of food. You've been released of the burdens about touching "unclean" and dead things and requiring ritual purification, etc--as Jesus told us, His burden was light. And you've been released from these burdens...and I have no doubt these would have been real burdens to complete. As you'd have to do many of these over and over.

    In fact, I can't think of any specific ritual we are now required to perform as the ancient Hebrews were. The closest thing is what we call "Communion", that is re-enacting the Last Supper and this is to be done in remembrance of Him.

    It is necessary to understand slavery from a traditional and historical Hebrew cultural standard. From that context, slavery was more akin, as to what we would call today, an indentured servant. In fact, in Exodus, Hebrews were commanded release their slaves at the 7th year (Exodus 21)--referred to as Shemitah. Where all debts were supposed to have been forgiven and released (again, a hazy picture of Christ). Also during this time you were to give your crop producing land a "rest" and not till it--setting up the idea of crop rotation.

    Some people elected to remain a slave or "indentured servant" as at the end of the sixth year, beginning the seventh they were given a choice. As Exodus 21:5 states, "But if the slave plainly says, "I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go free..."

    Further, the Hebrews who had slaves were under the commandment to treat slaves well and dignified as specified by Colossians 4:1, "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven."

    The Old Testament provides many instructions for helping the poor, providing for widows, etc. Even directions to leave crops back when fields are harvested so those who are poor can glean the fields. Leviticus 23:22, "And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God."

    I don't believe Paul could have returned a runaway slave since he was in prison at the time. Paul did encourage him to return. However the slave was a recent convert to Christ and Paul pleaded to Philemon, via letter, to treat him as a brother in Christ upon his return since a runaway could be punished severely. In other words, the "master" and the "slave" are brothers in the Lord and that status should dominate their relationship. But we're not clear what business relationship there was between this particular master and or this particular slave. Maybe the "slave" was there to pay off family debts? Its not clear. But reneging on "business arrangements" or covenants would not be in keeping with the Lord's desires as this would provide excuses to use His name, under fraudulent pretenses, to satisfy their own individual greed and self-serving wants. In other words, a method and excuse to discredit the good name of Jesus.

    When studying the Bible, it is important to study given the context of the subject...rather than taking a passage or two and trying to ascertain an understanding. A lot of it can be understood with a single reading without further exploration, but some require further review. Like anything else, it must be done within context rather than basic assumption. But with the Bible, many times there were specific things recorded or required that had a specific and relevant reasoning behind it.

    After all, it does state in Proverbs 25:2, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  6. corndogggy

    corndogggy 12 pointer

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    Please point out where.
     
  7. Farrier85

    Farrier85 10 pointer

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    I knew this thread was bound to get a interesting argument lol

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
     
  8. corndogggy

    corndogggy 12 pointer

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    They did this because that was the only way they would ever see their wife and kids again. It was either that or leave their wife and kids in slavery while they go free. Seriously, could you do this?

    Notice that when they did this, at that point the master bore the servants ear with an awl like he was a head of cattle, then owned him "forever".

    Which part of this sounds perfectly voluntary to you?
     
  9. Iceman35

    Iceman35 12 pointer

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    I believe the entire story of Moses lays out Gods view on involuntary slavery.

    In several passages it also refers to how to treat your slave, (indentured servant), as equal to yourself, and gives instructions on releasing them to their freedom once their debt is paid. I think it was Paul, though I'd have to look up the specific verse, who specifically states that there is no difference in the spiritual realm between "slave" and "master".
     
  10. Iceman35

    Iceman35 12 pointer

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    Because they voluntarily entered into it in the first place to escape from an even worse life. I'm not saying it was fair, just that if their master treated them according to Gods law, they lived a pretty reasonable life. Not even in the same class as modern slavery, or the US version of it prior to the Civil War.
     
  11. corndogggy

    corndogggy 12 pointer

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    I realize some of the language is soft enough to let you believe that, such as using the word serve or servants, but keep in mind that the same language is used in Deuteronomy 20, which is rules for enslaving conquered foreign people. I suppose this chapter is voluntary as well?

    Keep in mind that some of the instructions on how to treat them well and set them free after a period of time really only applies to fellow Israelites, it only applies to fellow Hebrews. Foreign people, not so much. Read Leviticus 25:44-46 about how people pass down slaves from generation to generation and own them forever. This and Deuteronomy 20 has jack squat to do with the rosy voluntary picture you're trying to paint.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  12. Iceman35

    Iceman35 12 pointer

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    I finally found it.

    "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
     
  13. Iceman35

    Iceman35 12 pointer

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    Uh, in neither of those does it talk about involuntary slavery. I'll concede that there were different rules for Israelites and Hebrews vs. foreigners, but nowhere does it differentiate between the two on how they are to be treated.

    Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven. (Colossians 4:1)
    Masters, do the same to them, band stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him. (Ephesians 6:9)
    Masters, treat your bondservants justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven. (Colossians 4:1)

    Keep in mind also that all of a Kings Subjects were considered "slaves". All the people that King David conquered were thence considered his slaves, whether or not their lives changed in the slightest or not.
     
  14. EC

    EC 12 pointer

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    You're not trying to equate your 21st century economic understanding to that of the 2100 BC? Yes, I can see where people would voluntarily become a lifelong slave (employee) when many were lucky to have one meal a day and a decent roof over their heads. And if you had a compassionate "master" (employer), where you'd want to stay with him for life. Again, this is a hazy picture of your ownership either by God or by the Deceiver that would later be understood after the arrival of Jesus.

    And your "awl" provides an an Old Testament example and description of being "sealed" or "owned" forever by God. And this too is voluntary. As true with the Mark of the Beast...the person will be sealed or marked who they are owned by. In this case, one is marked owned by Satan. In the Book of Revelation during the Tribulation, there is a description that forbids certain judgments from occurring to those "Sealed by God"...or marked as His, per se. If I had to go thru this Tribulation period and it required an "awl thru my ear" to escape this judgment, yes--I'd be more than willing to take it...and my family too.

    Whether one likes it or not, there's two masters. One's "ownership" is sealed spiritually to either God or Satan regardless if they believe it or not. Regardless if they contend they never made a choice of this "ownership". They have. You will understand your "ownership" by Jesus because this is a decision you must willfully make (Jesus said sheep know their master). But by even rejecting Jesus, where the person erroneously thinks they've done nothing, not made a decision--they have, in fact, accepted the conditions of Satan--willfully. They've declared their ownership...and are "awled" accordingly.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  15. EC

    EC 12 pointer

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    It depends on the circumstances. Most of any conquering was done as a judgment from God. Many times, God had the Hebrews execute His judgment. And in cases, God used the heathen to execute His judgment against the Hebrews. Even enslavement. So it is clear, sin will permeate generations and entire cultures. Look what we've dealt with for generations and generations because Adam and Eve sinned and rebelled against God? The entire universe has been cursed because of it.
     

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