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Discussion in 'Deer Hunting' started by maxcam, Aug 25, 2006.
If a guy has a cornfeeder out and a bear eats out of it, is the guy guilty of feeding bears?
I see this as three issues.
1) Enforcement: The CO's are having a terrible time enforcing the baiting laws for turkeys under the current regulations. The net effect of the current regulation favors illegal baiters and at the same time requires CO's to enter baited areas under the cover of darkness, hide in the bushes and observe the bait piles until daylight, and then observe the "armed" hunter(s) hunting over bait-before a citation can be written. Besides putting the officers in a dangerous situation, it requires a massive amount of resources to be used in an attempt to just get one illegal turkey baiter. I just described a situation that favors the illegal turkey baiters and at the same time risks our CO's lives and does not protect the turkey resource. When the CO's get together and say that they believe that thousands of gobblers every year are being killed over bait during the season, something needs to changed. Giving up a few pictures on your deer cams and seeing a fewer deer in your back yard is worth the effort to reduce illegal turkey hunting over bait.
Surely, there is some common ground that most of us can agree on regarding the situation I described. At a minimum, we should be able to agree on a baiting ban from March 1 through May 15.
2) Baiting: Comparing a 3 acre clover food plot that contains 130,680 sq feet of feeding area to a 10 square foot feeding area defies logic. Rick, Ace, and Duster, I love you guys, but even a quarter acre food plot contains over 10,000 sq feet of feeding area, so comparing a feeder to a food plot from a health standpoint is kind of silly.
The baited area works to draw repeated visits from deer in that tiny area, while a food plot works to disperse, not to mention the social factors that deer display in a food plot by getting some distance from each other.
If it wasn't for the potential disease issue, I wouldn't have as big a problem with baiting, although I have never done it. Deer are pretty tough animals and proven themselves to be pretty creative in surviving different diseases.
I can't site any diseases that baiting deer has caused, I am just applying common sense that there has to be a better way and it seems unhelathy. The fact that a majority of CWD cases in the US were found in high fence areas with high concentrations of animals living and eating together does cause me concern. Coincidence? Not sure. I could probably support some common sense baiting regulations that required sportsmen to "spread" the bait over a greater distance and then relocate the bait to a different location from time to time. Piling it up in 3 foot high piles year after year doesn't make sense to me.
In my personal opinion baiting should be banned the entire year. Several on here have said that they will support a ban of baiting once CWD is discovered in KY. That statement in itself tells me that most think baiting is unhealthy or otherwise CWD being discovered in KY wouldn't be areason to stop baiting. IMO, CWD is already here, it jsut hasn't been discovered in an animal yet.
3) Supplemental Feeding: IMO, 99% of the so called supplemental feeding of corn is really baiting and doesn't contribute enough volume to the herd to make any difference. The food intake of of a small deer herd is massive and putting out 4,000 lbs of corn for deer, possum, coon, birds, squirrels, and coyotes is noble, but biologically ineffective.
Rick243: I put out 6 acres of standing corn this year which will yield around 500-600 bu. Witihin 3 miles of my farm, farmers plant approx 2,000 acres of corn/yr yielding 300,000 bu/yr or more. You can't convince me that my 500 bu is a problem and artifically supporting a higher than normal land carrying capacity. I wish you guys had more agriculture around you so your land could support more deer, but the fact is that it doesn't. The high quality food plots you all plant over there are good for the deer, but in reality, corn piles and feeders that put out high carb/low protein feed have minimal value. Yes, corn helps milk production Ace........
Like I said, if the way baiting was done was changed, I would'nt have a problem with it.
When the elk herd reaches maxium numbers, and I think it will be more than thought. Who of us in this part of the state will be able to feed anyways? Once those behemouths find your feeder, the Clintons couldn't buy enough feed.
Then why do it??????????????
Glad you agree with me.
I don't doubt that many do pile corn feet high, though there are better ways, I think some education on the "why" to do it differnently would have more success and less contraversy imho
And the increased milk production while not always increasing the herd's size WILL/DOES make the fawns bigger/healthier, which I say is a "good thing"
CM12: Twisting of my words........
If the turkey population wasn't so suceptible to being hunted over bait, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I know the area you are in and I can tell you that if baiting of turkeys was originally and currently allowed in KY, you wouldn't have any today.
A lot of work went into the turkey restoration. Don't think they can't be wiped out in a few years. The turkey population is a tender balance. The deer population is nearly out of control in half of the state. Different logic for different game.
I think most would agree with that.
I went back and read the proposal. It will be interesting to hear the legal opinion on this.
legally I don't think the KYDFW can tell you to not put out a pile of corn on your property. It violates private property rights.
The only way they could mandate this is if they proved that by doing so it somehow jeopordized the herd. Which might be why they are introducing language about fungus and such.
Fish and Wildlife were never able to cite anyone for baiting right before turkey seaosn, because they couldn't. It can't be a crime for someone to put out corn on their property. its ONLY a crime to hunt over it.
Ace, if you want to cling to the theory of a doe eating an ounce of corn everyday drastically increasing milk production and thereby inreasing fawn health, go ahead....................but biologically speaking, it ain't true unless you have a high fence/covered feeders/10 lbs corn/day.........
Feedman has already answered this. It is a scale issue. Feedman should know this since he does this for a living........
If you want, we can call it supplemental feeding with little effect
How is my area different than the rest of the state? Poaching not a problem elsewhere? If cornpiles is a health hazard to turkeys, then ban them all the time. I don't bait with corn/never have. Tried apples once, but I'll be hanged if I'm gonna pack food up these dang hills for something besides me to eat. And I still doubt this has much to do with law enforcement.
Think about this though, the surest way to get someone to do something is to tell them they can't.
Lowebowe: I agree with you in respect to those that don't agree with this change or those that want to get a head start on future bait banning getting involved on a local level with their Federations so that their Director can voice their opinions to the Commission. I will say this again........nothing like getting involved and getting your voice heard.
I don't agree with tabling the issue though.
I saw where the 3rd voted unamiously for baiting during deer season. Considering the mostly urban area it is located in and urban type thinking that comes with it, I am not surprised.......
Nice talk, got to go though.
My thoughts for the dep......
EDUCATE NOT REGULATE!!!!!!
CM12 has ruled, let the ruling stand.
CM12: The counties over here are producing 2-3 times the turkey harvest as counties in your area. My logic was that the areas with the lowest turkey populations would be the first to have negative consequences on their poulations.
Baby steps ace. Baby steps.
Duster Predicts a lot of AIR TIME for the C.O.s come spring. Then the knocking on doors and handing out of citations starts. Just remember it's easy to spot the golden grain on the ground from up above before the forest greens up. The C.O. that told me about being able to spot it said it stood out like a neon sign.
First I'm not "clinging to anything" fwiw, I am basing what I'm saying on a total program that I've seen first hand, not any "theory" or "theories" for that matter
I'll "try" to explain this one more time......
I feed TONS of feed (not only corn, a great deal of high protein feed with trace mineral as well, ) a "far cry " from a "couple of ounces", and as most should know WE don't have thousands of deer here to use that either, so what I have is tons of feed, much of that high protein with trace mineral, some corn, a few food plots (and the garden wheat they "think" is for them to use also).....plus I keep 50 lb mineral blocks out year 'round as well.....(some think that minerals taken this way go "right through them" , from what I've seen I doubt that very much)....
Now I don't pretend to know what takes place in other parts of the state, where the large farms are (btw I live not far from a couple of the largest farms in this part of Whitley Co fwiw) I've seen the difference, as have my family, freinds, cousins from up North, neighbors, enough people in other words for me to KNOW it's not my "imagination" or "wishful thinking" on my part
I don't however think I'm increasing the herd's size (numbers wise) to any real extent, only those that come here are bigger and heathier overall, which I'm quite proud of, and enjoy seeing larger healthier deer (who wouldn't?)
I have seen more triplet fawns over the years I've been doing this; without question, but not to the point that I'm concerned about that though....also keep in mind I hunt mostly mature doe here, so I take some (as do the neighbor's kids on a pretty regular basis fwiw)....
It's my goal to make the best of what we have here, with what we've got to work with, and I know that is and has been happening, based on what we have all seen ourselves.....It's not unusual now to see several deer here, before I started this that wasn't the case (they were often on the bigger farms where they could eat up their profits ) and those you did see were smaller deer (as is "normal" for Whitley county as a whole) NOT like that now, over the years the overall size has increased enough, again we all KNOW it's working! And I've always felt that was a good thing for us and all around us (yes they still do plenty of traveling)