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Thread: Concealed Carry and brandishing

  1. #11
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    This should link should answer your questions.
    http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIC1a2.html

  2. #12
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    Seriously? There's even a debate about this?


    1. You may carry a firearm openly in Kentucky, with or without a CCDW permit.

    2. There is no such thing as a "four step" rule. What in the holy hell are people making up these days? As long you can articulate that you were in danger of death or serious physical injury, you can use deadly force.

    The laws concerning deadly force and how one is allowed to carry a firearm are quite clear for our state. "Brandishing" isn't even a crime, and I'd love for one of these "instructors" to show me that particular charge in the Revised Statutes.

    Yeah, if you wave your gun around at someone, without a very good reason, you'll likely end up in jail. The charge will probably be "wanton endangerment 1st", though. But, if you have a good reason (life was in danger, someone was trying to rob you, etc), not much will happen...not even in Louisville.

    Please refer to KRS 237.110 for further information on the CCDW permit, or to chapter 527 for firearms violations. Alternatively, there's a wealth of information at www.kentuckystatepolice.org

    Enjoy, and carry all you want. I'm a very strong supporter of law-abiding folks carrying as much as they want, in as many places as they want. Typically speaking, permit holders aren't the bad guy, although there have been instances of them going off the deep end. To be fair, some of the people in my line of work have done the same. In any case, I prefer to give good people the benefit of the doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by 8&sand View Post
    ...what a rush it would be to legally harvest a human! Like my grandpa always said. If you shoot them outside, drag em in before the cops show up. lol

  3. #13
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    I believe the four step rule is what differentiates a legal or illegal concealed weapon.

    If you are a legal permit holder, the four step rule does not apply.

    If you are NOT a legal permit holder and have the weapon with you in public but not on your person in plain view, there is supposed to be a four step process to acquire and fire the weapon if it is being transported legally. The extra step for leaning across your front seat to get a pistol out of the glove box being the difference (legal) from carrying the exact same weapon in your console (illegal). Again this is for NON PERMIT holders. Less than four steps, the weapon is carried illegally. Four or more steps and it's legal, permit or not.

    I am not a permit holder, nor have I taken the class. That is just how it was explained to me by two different permit holders.

    While we are on the subject, I have another issue that someone could clarify for me.

    I was also told, but didn't understand, what the process is for a permit holder who is carrying if faced with an LEO. I was told that unless asked, a permit holder should not tell the LEO that he is carrying a weapon. If asked, you must tell the LEO. That doesn't make sense to me personally. If I was carrying and faced with a LEO-say for a traffic stop-I would want him/her to know right away that I had a legal weapon on my person and cooperate with the LEO in every way if asked to produce it and set it somewhere safe. I sure would hate to reach for my wallet and driver's license and find a Glock pointed at my nose if my holster became visable. I'm always going to assume the LEO is a better gunfighter than I will ever be.

  4. #14
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    There is NO four step process. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. You will never see that in our statutes, should you go looking.

    Here's how we carry guns in the state:

    1. Openly, no permit needed.

    2. Concealed, if you're a permit holder.

    Guns placed in the glovebox are NOT considered concealed by statute, and it doesn't matter if they're loaded or unloaded. The center console, under the seat, etc. would be considered concealed, and one may not store the weapon there unless you have a permit. It has nothing to do with "four steps" at all. It's simply the law. If anyone says differently, please ask them to show you the relevant statutes. All things firearms are covered in 237.110 or chapter 527 of the Kentucky Revised Statutes.

    Regarding notification - Kentucky does NOT require notification. However, you have the correct view of things. Law enforcement prefers to know, up front, if you're armed. When I had a permit, I always notified the few times I was in that position. As an officer myself, I always notify when I'm off duty, in street clothes, and another officer makes contact. The people who advise you NOT to do so, are typically hung up on "I don't HAVE to, and I'm NOT going to...even if it makes sense. Those mean evil jackbooted thugs will surely do something nasty to me if I tell them I'm carrying a gun."

    Silly nonsense, really.


    Please, folks...stop spreading the "four step rule" nonsense around. It just isn't so. Technically, the gun could be in the back seat of your car, in plain view, and you can't be charged with a crime.....the term is "concealed", after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by 8&sand View Post
    ...what a rush it would be to legally harvest a human! Like my grandpa always said. If you shoot them outside, drag em in before the cops show up. lol

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
    Seriously? There's even a debate about this?


    Yeah, if you wave your gun around at someone, without a very good reason, you'll likely end up in jail. The charge will probably be "wanton endangerment 1st", though.
    It's not likely, it's a sure thing that you will have a huge legal problem on your hands.

    I happen to know someone who made the mistake of having this issue come up. Among the several charges was "Terroristic Threatening." This occured in Grayson County, and those with roots in Grayson County can probably ID the person in question. It was an incident of considerable local lore.

    "Menacing" and "attempted assault" are other terms for the same issue.

    In any case, and whatever it might be called, pulling a weapon-gun, knife, baseball bat-and using it to intimidate another person is a serious matter and not taken lightly....just ask OJ Simpson.

    It's very common for a vehicle to be the stated weapon, particularly in domestic violence incidents where the practice seems popular for whatever reason.

    I also know of someone whose deadly weapon was a pair of cowboy boots he was wearing when he got in a fight and kicked the crap out of someone (actually put him in a coma for several days). He would have done serious prison time had it not been proven that the loser was the one who actually instigated the fight.

    I have produced a gun once during an potential altercation 25 years ago. I didn't point it at anyone or threaten to do so. In fact I never said a word at all. I just stood there with a revolver in my hand in plain view in my driveway, while a road rage incident was boiling up in front of my home in rural Georgia. It did put an immediate change of heart into the gentleman who was backing his vehicle thinking he'd like to have a fist fight with my roommate (who was busy trying to load a tractor on a trailer-causing the inconvenience which started the whole mess). This was far from my brightest moment on this earth, and I am thankful that the law did not become involved. The look on the face of the man's girlfriend, who was the one that noticed me standing there with a pistol, was priceless....though I don't recommend you try this at your home.

  6. #16
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    As hunters and owners of guns, we were or should have been taught these four rules.

    • Always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.
    • Always point your firearm in a safe direction.
    • Always keep your finger outside of the trigger guard until you are on target and ready to shoot.
    • Always be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docknboatlift View Post
    It's not likely, it's a sure thing that you will have a huge legal problem on your hands.

    I happen to know someone who made the mistake of having this issue come up. Among the several charges was "Terroristic Threatening." This occured in Grayson County, and those with roots in Grayson County can probably ID the person in question. It was an incident of considerable local lore.

    "Menacing" and "attempted assault" are other terms for the same issue.

    In any case, and whatever it might be called, pulling a weapon-gun, knife, baseball bat-and using it to intimidate another person is a serious matter and not taken lightly....just ask OJ Simpson.

    It's very common for a vehicle to be the stated weapon, particularly in domestic violence incidents where the practice seems popular for whatever reason.

    I also know of someone whose deadly weapon was a pair of cowboy boots he was wearing when he got in a fight and kicked the crap out of someone (actually put him in a coma for several days). He would have done serious prison time had it not been proven that the loser was the one who actually instigated the fight.

    I have produced a gun once during an potential altercation 25 years ago. I didn't point it at anyone or threaten to do so. In fact I never said a word at all. I just stood there with a revolver in my hand in plain view in my driveway, while a road rage incident was boiling up in front of my home in rural Georgia. It did put an immediate change of heart into the gentleman who was backing his vehicle thinking he'd like to have a fist fight with my roommate (who was busy trying to load a tractor on a trailer-causing the inconvenience which started the whole mess). This was far from my brightest moment on this earth, and I am thankful that the law did not become involved. The look on the face of the man's girlfriend, who was the one that noticed me standing there with a pistol, was priceless....though I don't recommend you try this at your home.
    Nitpicking for a moment - the cowboy boots aren't considered a "deadly weapon" per state statute. Those are specifically defined in the statute. Rather, they would have been considered a "dangerous instrument" as defined by statute.

    WE1 is a higher level offense than TT. TT3 (threatening to kill someone) is a misdemeanor, while WE1 is a felony. TT2/TT1 are felonies, but since no one was threatening to use a WMD to kill people, those aren't applicable.

    Menacing is essentially when you threaten to cause physical harm, TT is when you threaten to cause death or serious physical injury. I don't really know of any cases where the ASCF portion of the citation had "A" in them for someone waving a gun around. Those are usually WE1, TT3; but, it's always possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by 8&sand View Post
    ...what a rush it would be to legally harvest a human! Like my grandpa always said. If you shoot them outside, drag em in before the cops show up. lol

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docknboatlift View Post
    I was also told, but didn't understand, what the process is for a permit holder who is carrying if faced with an LEO. I was told that unless asked, a permit holder should not tell the LEO that he is carrying a weapon. If asked, you must tell the LEO. That doesn't make sense to me personally. If I was carrying and faced with a LEO-say for a traffic stop-I would want him/her to know right away that I had a legal weapon on my person and cooperate with the LEO in every way if asked to produce it and set it somewhere safe. I sure would hate to reach for my wallet and driver's license and find a Glock pointed at my nose if my holster became visable. I'm always going to assume the LEO is a better gunfighter than I will ever be.
    Whoever told you that is dead wrong.

    If you are carrying and you have an encounter with an LEO, you are supposed to inform him that you are carrying with a permit and tell him where the gun is located (all while keeping your hands in plain sight).

    Otherwise, as you theorized.. things could go downhill in a hurry.
    It's not so much if you win or lose - it's how you shoot the flaming arrow while riding a camel.

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
    Nitpicking for a moment - the cowboy boots aren't considered a "deadly weapon" per state statute. Those are specifically defined in the statute. Rather, they would have been considered a "dangerous instrument" as defined by statute.
    This incident occured in Georgia when I was a college student about to graduate, and I was with the defendant when his attorney told him the boot story. It was during a two hour first interview between defendant and lawyer, and I was there for the whole thing. I believe (thinking back) that the issue might have been that the defendant had taken a minimal number of martial arts classes years prior. I can't say that with certainty though. I can say with certainty that the attorney was clear that the boots could be considered a weapon. At the time of the interview, the "victim" was still in a coma and there was a real possibility that he would die. Fortunately he recovered. The reason I was present during this situation was I was a witness that could state that the "victim" had in fact threatened the person who later beat him into a coma. I was not present for the fight itself.....I was a couple blocks away trying to romance a woman's charms from her....which is the sort of fight every young man should devote his attentions to.

    It turned out that the "victim" in this case had a long criminal history, even at the age of 19, and the history included drug and violence. I found this out after I was summoned to testify and the trial was dismissed before it ever started.

    WE1 is a higher level offense than TT. TT3 (threatening to kill someone) is a misdemeanor, while WE1 is a felony. TT2/TT1 are felonies, but since no one was threatening to use a WMD to kill people, those aren't applicable.

    Menacing is essentially when you threaten to cause physical harm, TT is when you threaten to cause death or serious physical injury. I don't really know of any cases where the ASCF portion of the citation had "A" in them for someone waving a gun around. Those are usually WE1, TT3; but, it's always possible.
    This incident obviously happened in Kentucky, and there was a whole slew of charges made, Terroristic Threatening being one. I know the guy who was charged, but it happened prior to my having met him. His legal bill was $20K, and the only reason he got off is the person he pulled a weapon on was from out of state and refused to come back and testify in the matter.

    I'm sure you agree that whatever it is called, the act of pulling a weapon on someone is an extremely serious matter and not something that one can expect the legal system to take lightly.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rock802 View Post
    But if they are going away from you, there is no longer a threat.
    Not necessarily. Which way are they facing; i.e. are they going away from you, but facing you, backing up, maybe still holding weapon? Are they going away from you but threatening someone else? Not quite that simple.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."

    "It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own."
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