I'm totaly confused

[Wildcat]

I know this post will ruffle some feathers but I hope it makes some think. I've been reading all the forums on here for the past several weeks and all I read are negative complans about the deer herd, KDFWR, elk, bating, and poachers BUT it seems like nobody really wants to do anything about it, just give it some talk.

I'll agree that KDFWR does not have a handle on the numbers that are killed during the season but then some always blame that on unlimted does. Not all counties are the same, not ever areas within the same county. The way I've read here about poachers is like it's an acceptable way of life here in Kentucky. This morning going to the mail box I saw a deer in the dich with his head cut off, I called the CO and reported it. He thanked me and put it on his record, there was nothing more I could do because I had no idea who shot it or when. But others keep posting they know people who take 2, 3, 4 and 5 bucks a year some ever more. Some have posted they don''t know how a one buck state herd can be out of balance. Hey, from what I've read it seems like nobody but me is taking just one buck. I guess poaching is OK here.

I live just 15 miles from LBL and have hunted there since 1965, I've seen the herd there go up and down several times over the years.I've bowhunted there about 20 days this year so far and seen few deer. Is this because of unlimited does? You can't use them there. Looking at my hunting journal I saw I never put on a jacket until almost the end of Oct. in fact most of the days were 70 and above. Opening day of gun season on my place I hunted in shirt sleeves. Still all in all over the season so far I've seen as amny deer as I did in the past 3 years. I did have trouble hunting them early in the season but then my journal says it's been that way for me the past 10 years, in fact I've never taken a big boy before the second week in Oct since I first started hunting in 1965.

Baiting. Man, I'm really getting in hot water here.

[:D]

Xtyeme made a remark on another post about setting up a pile of corn next to a Zone 3 or 4 county line and getting the deer in a Zone one county or something like that. I know baiting is legal in KY but is that what we really use it for? To pull the deer to our place from our neighbors? Or is it really like some like to call it "feeding"? Did anybody ever wonder if some poeple bait and spotlight the pile at night? But no that's not a problem, it's got to be the unlimited does.


I had never heard about the insurance companies being in bed with the game depts until I read it here. When I lived in the city limits of Memphis Tn I had late model truck, van, and a car. All 3 were insuranced under one policy. I sold the van and car when I moved here they charged me almost the same amount for one truck they did for all three in Memphis. I could not beleive it, less than 2,000 live where I do now and I called the company up. They told me because of the high deer density they were charging me more. I changed companys but it wasn't much chaper than the first one. Now this insurance was making almost $1,000 a year more off me where the numbers were high. That's a money machine. And if it is why would the insurance companies want to lower the numbers?? There's ever article in the Jan 2003 issue of Deer & Deer Hunting about it.

I'm NOT trying to start a fight here, just make people think. Like I said I'm confused. Just what are we really after here. Do some of us want to raise the herd just so they will raise the buck limit. Do some of us want a balanced herd? Or do some just want to blame it all on someone else? Take my post the way you want to but like I said I'm not trying to start a fight, just talking.

[Xi Bowhunter]

You made several good points, but i just don't think that catching poachers is high on the states list of "things to do." I myself are going to school to become some sort of game warden or game official to do my part for the state I love. I am born and raised Kentuckian, and I have never poached....and I mean NEVER. Poachers make me sick, and they hurt the guys who play by the rules and do our fair share for the enviroment. I wouldn't be afriad to cause a scare or a heated debate on this board, I think we are all adults here, and maybe that is what we need to get more people involved. Just today I found a tresspasser on the land I hunt. He had somehow managed to put a tree stand in the exact tree that I use to hunt out of with my climbing stand! I couldn't help but be mad at first, but i guess i will just have to find out who it is before I go doing anything drastic....just kiddin. I just wanted to say great post, and let you in that there are some of us out there that are still doing our part. Happy hunting.

Matt Goetz

[Multidigits]

I'll try in answer some of your questions. First if all, this debate has been going on for at least 3 or 4 years both here and on the Ky. Bowsite. At one time, the wildlife director(Roy), the head deer biologist(Gassett), and a PLB all contributed to the discussion.

I disagree that nobody wants to do anything about it, just talk? In fact, a lot of us are heavily involved in trying to stop adding the changes that the Dept. is pushing hard.

If you had been part of the debate, you would have learned a lot about how the Dept. determines what Zone stategy to use. It's based on several factors logged into a computer, then discussed with the county CO and the local biologist and the Zone is determined. At one time, they said that the numbers are verified every so often by spotlight surveys, but couldn't find out when one was going to be done in either of the two main palces that I hunt.

You would have learned that one of the factors used is roadkill data being +/- a certain number. Although we all know that most roadkills go unreported to local CO's or police, it would seem that this number would have to be a guesstimate at best. In fact, Mr. Dey was quoted in the Louisville paper as saying that they still use the figure of 10,000 per year "EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THIS NUMBER IS HIGHER THAN THAT". Does that soundlike good data gathering?

In fact, they have no idea what the number is unless it's gotten from the insurance company's. You talk about your insurance rate, and imply that the insurance company has an interest in keeping the deer herd high, you would have to know that an average claim on a car/truck deer colision is over $4000 per event. Kentucky Farm Burea has some say in what these Zones are set at, you can bank on that.

The Dept. has decided that the Zones should be based on a certain number of deer per sq. mile. This number, as you say, is different in parts of each specific county, sometimes drasticlly different. But the number is average by the Dept. in hopes that the deer in the high number areas with travel to the low number areas. Then you would know that the total number of the herd in each county, is based on "the social carrying capacity" not the biologic carrying capacity or the capcity that the land will support. Most of us have suggested that the herd needs to be "micro managed" instead of managing on an unlimited basis. This was denied as not being possible or to costly.

You would have learned that the number of hunters who purchase tags, have remained fairly stable of the past few years, as had the number of deer annually kill and checked. Yet since John Phillip's retirement, we see reports of a large increase in the deer herd each year. This years numbe was reported at several different levels depending who was recieving the information. The number is supposed to be somewhere between 800,000 and a million pre-hunt. Yet, the biologist admits that this number could be off by as many as a 100,000 or so. That doesn't sound very precise to me and might be the reason that the numbers are skewed?

So if the number of hunters remains the same, the number of deer are rising rapidly, and the bag limits have increased drasticly, why haven the number of kills followed the increase? You'll say it's the weather, maybe it has some effect on hunter killed deer. But deer need to eat and bucks love to have sex. So you'd have to assume if their not moving during the day so that hunters can kill them, that they would be moving at night. If they do that, roadkills should increase, right???? Check the Ky. State Police site and click on this link-- http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/deerauto.htm Did you notice the decline in the graph since 1999?

You make a remark about everybody else on this site being a poacher. Your wrong about that. Poaching has increased in recent years, but has always been high since the one-buck limit went into effect. One buck is simply too much for some of these scumbags. Unlimited tags at $6.50 a piece should have eliminated all the poaching of does, but it hasn't. They get whacked at high rates also. You said that your buck/doe ratio is 1:4--that's not possible unless your having lots of bucks taken, especially at the rate that your killing does.

You say that LBL doesn't have unlimited tags. When did LBL start regulating the number of bowhunters entering the area to hunt. So, you see, that on public hunting areas, unless the number of hunters is controlled, you have the same effect as unlimited tags.

Extreme was making a point about the unlimited tags being abused in areas where Zone 1 meets a Zone 2,3 or 4. You can look at most of these counties and see a down trend in the last 3 years. Check the comparison on the Dept.s web site. It's fun to play with, but nothing in there shows an icrease in over 400,000 animals over the last 3 years. Here's the link: http://kyeasupt1.state.ky.us/kdfwr/harvest/harvestcomparison.asp

From a Cyberhunter's perspective, we declined to fight against unlimited tags because we are a diverse group from all over the state. Some of our members have plenty of deer, some don't your lucky that you have lots to choose from. It's not like that all over. Those of us that have bought farms and have spent literally thousands of dollars trying to draw and hold deer are particulally disgruntled with the numbers were seeing. This is not only during the seasons, but all year long. The county that my farm is in was a Zone 1 for two years, this year thay made it a Zone 3. The past two years, the kill steadily declined, yet it took them two years it decide that it should have never been a Zone 1 to start with. You really want to be confused, I'll tell you about having a PLB out to my farm. We ask for assistance to help improve the habitat for deer. We had plenty of field mice and songbirds, but wanted to hold more deer. The fellow had only been out of his truck for a few minutes, whne he uttered the now famous phase-"you guys are going to have to kill plenty of does here". After we completed the walk around, I ask him where the tracks were of all those does we need to kill? He seemed to not have an answer. Then I was confused. In fact, after spending thousands on food plots, tractor and equipment and even a bulldozer, I'm still confused.

I'm going to close by saying that I've seen the highs and lows of the deer herd in Kentucky. I've hunted them for the past 39 years and have seen it evolve to what we have. I support the one buck limit, but not unlimited tags on does. I would support any style of management other than letting untrained hunters do their own management by whats in their frezzer at the time.

[RutNBuck]

Wildcat ,
you make some very good points...i live and hunt in Zone 1...do i see a deer behind every tree,bush ??? NO.. do i feel we can withstand unlimited does NO...limts yes...(5) but what i am saying is that some people get the idea to shoot every deer they see becuz "well the state is trying to thin them out"...TRUE and when people from other states hunt they read the info and see ok lets make sure we pick a zone 1 county to ask permission..wait TRESPASS seldom if ever do they ask..
i have heard out-of-staters make the comment "where i am from we shoot everything we see"
my reply thats why your hunting KY you wiped your herd out..

as far as everyone getting a buck NOT me i bowhunt only even during gun season...could i have taken a buck this year sure several but i am looking for mr P&Y...if he doesnt show thats ok i still had a good season.....i like a hunt where i go out see deer even if not shots are taken.... and where Ky stands now thats very common

i came up one day on one of them guys that just cut the head off this fella was doing just that and gonna leave the deer in a ditch i cussed him called him every name in the book...


"A wise indian once said,the more you move the less you will see,the less you move the more you will see"

" I live to hunt, but my wife says i may hunting a place to live"

[onearrow]

I think for the most part the KDFW has done a good job.I don't agree with unlimted tags though or some of the zones being what they are.I have saw decline in the number of deer this year for what reason I am not sure there are more factors than just hunting . Wildcat you can rest assured that you are not the only one taking one buck on the state tag.I think that the coyote population is having a effect on the deer at LBL the fawns and does anyway.
Wildcat,how big is the total farm area you have control over that is connected ?You surly remember what the hunting was like in the late 70's early 80's this is what some of us are talking about though it's not that bad.I think most of us want a balanced herd but just at a higher level than what we see now.

[Wildcat]

Multidigits,
One question if your saying the dept is just guessing on the numbers then how do you know for sure that does are being poached in high numbers?

I never said everyone on here was a poacher, I ASKED the question if I was the only one. Because I've read very little on here about anyone doing anything about poaching.

I can buy most of the rest of what you've posted and I do know that umlimited doe tags will not be around forever, it never was met to be. But I can not buy into the idea that does are poached as much as bucks. Like I said I've been hunting since 1965 so that's 37 years and the only thing I ever overhear about is how many bucks someone got. I'm not saying they don't poach does they do but why in the world would someone go into all that trouble just to poach does ? Unless it's no trouble in Ky at all. That 4-1 ratio was proven by our 12 cameras over the past 5 years, which is better than just guessing and we now beleive we have got it down to where we want it. Never in my life has anyone ever proven to me that EVERY doe ALWAYS gives birth to one buck and one doe fawn.

It's funny you should bring up the Kentucky Farm Bureau, they are who I'm with now and they save me oner $1,000 a year over the other insurance. I agree that it can cost $4,000 and more when you hit a deer but then look at the number of cars insuranced to the numbers of claims filled on hitting a deer. It'a a money machine that makes some good money for the insurance companies.


Bowhunting in LBL is the same as unlimited does??? You could say that about most of the WMA's in the state. LBL is 170,000 acres in two states. Since I'm retired I go anywhere from 3 to 7 days a week to LBL and most of the weekdays I have the place to my self, I'm only 15 miles form it and I stop by the Welcome Station at last once a week to check if any big buck has been checked out. Opening weekend which has always had the most bowhunters there at anytimne of the season, that weekend less than 40 deer were checked out in the entire LBL. Besides the limit at LBL is one buck and one doe OR two does AND if you get a draw gun hunt with a buck tag but you've already got a buck with a bow at LBL then you are out of luck, you can't hunt there because you've limited out on bucks. Sorry but the numbers do not add up for bowhunting at LBL to be the same as unlimited does.

[Wildcat]

onearrow,
The way it's set up my cousin has two large farms with two others between them and three more around us plus a golf course on the side of one of this farms which has no hunting. 5 years ago I had a cookout for the neighbor farms and had a meeting to put my ideas across for all of our deer hunting. We all agreed to do the same things, we hunt our own farms and not each others but do the same stuff. So between all the farms and golf course I'd say we have a little over 6,000 acres all doing the same thing. I know I'm very, very lucky to have been able to put this together but it did take some serious work and money. The hardest was getting the other farmers to go along. Today they treat me like I'm their best friend because of the quality of deer hunting they've been having the past 3 years. I CAN'T hunt on all those acres just my cousins two farms.

If you all wanted to try something like this get with your neighbors like I did and try to work somethiing out. One thing, if you do this be sure to patrol the place and post it like heck. That alone will pay off big time.

[Multidigits]

There are many forms of poaching. The one most think of when the word pops up is the jacklighter. Take for example in your area. The jacklighter would have a 4 times greater chance of his beam hitting on a doe that it would on a buck. Being that most of these thugs are in a bit of a hurry, they shoot what the light hits. A recent photo of three guys 'lighting near Battletown, Ky. showed a truck full of does-no bucks could be seen.

Another form of poaching is taking deer by a method that would have been legal, except theat the deer wasn't properly checked and tagged. The Dept. knows this happens at a very high rate yet when they estimate the amount of illegeal harvest for the computer model, it is a lot lower than what they know it has to be. When WD was poating here, he told of about the roadblocks that the Dept. used to run. They have been discontinued or so I'm told. But the rate of infraction was about 18% of all the hunters had a violation of some sort. I believe the number was about 13% had illegal deer. Do some math and figure if 13% of the licensed hunters were taking illegal deer(both bucks and does).

Management at LBL is a lot better than the rest of the state. At least they set a Quota and issue permits based on what they want killed. But all public hunting areas have to try and maximize the resource for as many people as possible.

[Xi Bowhunter]

What is the Kentucky Bowsite?

Matt Goetz

[Multidigits]

http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/tf/regional/threads.cfm?state=KY

[Xtreme]

Wildcat, go back and re-read my post about corn piles and zone 1 counties. As for not poaching does? Our CO just wrote two tickets last week for two untagged does. Does do get poached.

[GSP]

Wildcat, this is a very good post you made and you raise some very good questions.
You bring up a question about poaching.
I was the one that posted about finding the 7 dead does that were just left laying and also about hearing a a boy that had shot 7 bucks throughout this fall. (Yes, I made a call about it. Though they don't have much to work with.)
I have seen a lot of post here about game violators. It seems this year they have really come out of the woodwork. My honest opinion is that much is because of the "marketing" done with the "shoot more does". It seems everywhere I go I hear, "they want as many deer as possible shot". I know this is no excuse for their actions, but it IS happening. There are many sorry a$$ people out there that is using this warped rational to justify their actions. I wish there was something I could do, I really do.
As for the Deptartment's CO's, I have said this many times, "They are some of the finest in the nation"!
I have a question for you. Have you heard of any poaching yourself, not counting the web sites? I don't know how it is in your area, I can only speak for the area I know about.

[Wildcat]

gsp,
When I first post this I wasn't just talking about your post but I've seen this tread here since bow opener.

Darn, it's hard to write now while the ballgame is going on. GO CATS!!


What was I saying? Yes!! We have poachers, I found a deer across the street yesterday morning with his head removed. I call them everytime, if nothing else I make sure they mark down the numbers. If any of them make me thing it's a waste of time I just keep pushing.

I posted on here before about the place I hunt. All of us that those farms take truns patroling all the farms every night during season and any trespasser or poacher we catch we prosicute as far as it will go. We ever filled a lawsuit against a poacher that we caught with 2 deer on our land. We ended up dropping the suit but it hit the paper and word got around fast. In the past 2 years we haven't had any problems from them. It's my trun to patrol tomorrow night. In the pro shops and stores people suit up when I come in because they know I'll trun them in in a heartbeat. So I don't get a lot of hearsay myself but I have several close friends and family that helps to keep me updated on what they hear or see. So yes, we have a poaching problem here.

Wildlife managers and management plans come and go but we still have poachers. I'll say this until I die, unless we as hunters trun them in , push the CO's to get them, push KDFWR to check more and make Frankfort pass thougher poacher laws and higher fines we will never be able to get any where with a game plan. I really beleive this and that's why we are so hard on anybody caught on our place.

[GSP]

Hey, they won one! Boy last night sucked. It's gonna be a lonnnnnng season.

I know you weren't singling out my post. I posted that Tuesday out of disgust of what I saw Monday. 7 does left laying, 3 thrown in a pile (this was in a zone 3, 1/4 mile from zone 2).
It sounds like you and your neighbors have something good going on, keep it up.
I fully agree with your last paragraph. The big problem is most folks don't have the layout y'all have going. I live 85 miles from my farm.
I also know there is no magic wand that can be waved and the problem corrected. Y'all are doing the RIGHT thing.
I go back to one issue that has helped breed some of this problem. Unlimited does!
Think of it this way. Which sounds like it has more <b>VALUE</b>?
<b>2 deer for $25 or 5 deer for $45. OR the kill as many as you want for $6.50 each over 2? </b> I think the first one sounds like they are giving the hunter a "bargin", yet still "protecting" the herd. Which in reality they would be making an extra $.50. Also, who kills more than 5? Yes, some, but not many.
I know I'm throwing semantics on the table here, but "preception is reality, unless it can be changed"! People do buy into how a product is "marketed". I just don't think it is being done well now.