Look at those harvest numbers????

[Highbow]

Just looking through the big harvest numbers , that somehow seemed to bloom as questions were being ask. Big notices are still very easy for any eye to see, lets see 77 counties with less than 1000 taken, 40 with less 500 taken and the real big item, WHERE ARE THE DOES????
I'm sure we will end up with a huge number of does at season end they just didn't want to be seen or bred during this rut so they all headed out to Ohio or W. Va till today , they will be standing all over the place next week???? Yea, sure they will????
Our deer herd is large that in five trips back and forth on Rt. 23 to Ashland over 60 mile one way I actually saw two dead on the road at prime time too.

[KYhunter]

Take a look at a few counties. Owen has killed more does alone than the all other counties except fours' ENTIRE harvest. The top two counties took 300 and 500 more does than bucks. And Owen took more than 1100 more deer than second place Crittenden county.

[Highbow]

That sounds like a well balanced herd doesn't it, just look at the numbers on the Dept site from 2000 and 2001 and compare to this season the picture is plain.

[Xtreme]

I looked at Hardin co.'s numbers tonight. So far I have seen a total of 4 deer dead on the roads. I have heard of maybe that many more. I have contacted several hunters and presented them with the numbers at hand and all wanted to know where these numbers came from?

Yes, I have friends from Radcliff to Upton and all parts in between. It makes one wonder[?][?][?]

[GSP]

Let me throw a wrench in this system. Today, I grouse hunted Wolfe county. I can take anyone that wants to see 7 deer laying dead that were just shot apparantly for the hell of it. 3 were thrown in a pile.
I hauled 2 others back to Nicholasville (that were tagged yesterday) because the guy that shot them didn't want them. He said he shot them because, "well, they don't care how many you kill anymore". His son has killed 7 bucks this fall. None larger than 6 pointer.

This train is so far off the track it will never run right again.

[RutNBuck]

7 bucks this fall did you report him?


"A wise indian once said,the more you move the less you will see,the less you move the more you will see"

" I live to hunt, but my wife says i may hunting a place to live"

[GSP]

To whom??????

At this point it's his word against mine. CO's are allowed to work 37 hours per week. Most of that is spent checking spotlighters. No one except the hunters really give a damn.
It is sickening.
The once noble beast of the woods has been de-valued.

[mossyhorns]

I agree with GSP. The unlimited tags have devalued antlerless deer to the point where they are killed for the heck of it. I've seen more deer shot an left laying this year than ever.

[Multidigits]

I just about only look at the comparison anymore. It's fun to play with. You can look at different dates and different counties. Some of the numbers make me think that some of the numbers are doctored up. They wouldn't do that would they????

[Highbow]

wHY WOULD SUDDENLY GO FROM 47,000 TO 103,000 ?

[Highbow]

I don't think there is much hope of getting control of things now that the Dept. is so set on having things their way and the heck with the hunters opinion.

[Wildcat]

If the CO's are only aloowed to work 37 hours a week then something is wrong. Take everyone of us if our pay was cut back to 37 hours a week or less you all would know right off the bat where that was coming from, the company is not making money so they can't pay you. Those CO's have a family to support just like the rest of us and if they can't make ends meet then they need more money, that means higher license and permit fees.

If nobody on here is not going to report someone shooting 7 bucks, IN A ONE BUCK STATE, then I don't see any reason to report the large deer I found across the road with his head cut off.

[GSP]

Wildcat & RnB, I made a call this morning. I'll see if I get a return call. The problem is, these have been killed through youth, muzzleloader and reg gun season. I don't know what can be done. All I have is word of mouth. I would like seeing him busted, I just don't see it going anywhere. I bothers me as much as anyone.

About the CO's hours?? Ask one.

[Marvin Campbell]

This post says exactly what I have been seeing and saying (when I post on this site or others) for the last three years!!!!

I have hunted on public land in Laurel, Perry, and Jackson Counties this year. Been in stand on 20 hunts that were either 1/2 to a full day in the stand (before daylight until after dark), and have seen 8 deer in approximately 120 hours of hard core hunting.

I don't believe the harvest numbers, how can they possibly be right.

[TripleBlind]

ALL state employees are capped at 37.5 hours, this is not due to revenue, but to our state legislature not passing a budget. The CO's and every other state employee are getting the same amount of $$ as they always have because they are on salary, they don't get paid overtime, but get comp time for anything over 37.5. As far as the deer harvest jumping from ~40thous to ~100thous, two words...modern firearm.
A lowly highway worker.

[.300Savage]

I have seen about 30 deer in about 40 hours of hunting on a high hunting pressure 200 acre (75 acres of woods) farm. Killed a buck and doe both this year and last. Last year's buck was about a 130 class 9-pointer and this year's buck was a smaller 8. I have seen a buck recently on the farm (of course after I already killed a buck this year) that would probably be a 170 class deer. The bad thing is that the farm was just sold to a sod-farmer, which I have heard, that doesn't grant permission to hunt or fish. This farm is in Bullitt County, near the Spencer County line by the way and I have never had problems not seeing deer there.

Rocco

[Marvin Campbell]

.300Savage, Consider yourself to have been lucky the last couple of years.

Where are you going to hunt from here on?

The whole state is not equal on the dispersion of the deer population, read RLB165 and others posts and you will find that the population is not even equal from area to area.

GSP, what you threw into the works is not a wrench but the truth.

The telechek system, tagging requirements (or lack thereof), recent press releases etc.
have impressed upon most people the the KDFWR does not really care how many deer
are killed.

Completely devalued!

It's no wonder that some CO's have a bad temper, the current harvest log system is
just another bad idea that makes their job even harder to do, and makes it harder
to convict someone of poaching (sorry judge I lost my ink pen.....well don't let it
happen again son).

[Multidigits]

I'm thinking if a judge who has a 3 or 4 month back log of cases gets one about somebody killing a doe worth $6.50 and the guy is cited for not having an ink pen, he's going to be mad as hell at the CO for taking his time away from important cases??

[Highbow]

I was working in Knott and Breathitt Co. today and talked with several hunters who said that the area had been covered up with COs trying to protect the ELK herd and that explains why we don't have anyone to cover the local areas.

[Ky Headhunter]

Highbow, that's one of the hidden costs of the elk restoration. But I pretty much get shouted down anytime I bring it up. Folks get real starry-eyed when it comes to those elk.

[Salty]

After reading the posts to this particular forum, I am very confused! I have always believed that the KDF&W had done a very good job with deer. I've hunted when there weren't any 60's & eary 70's. I hunt Owen County almost exclusively (I don't live there), the Department says it should be a Zone 1 & has too many deer. I've seen more deer this year than I have in the past 5 or 6 years. Took a kid last Sunday & saw 14 does & one buck (he missed). Why shouldn't I believe their model? I've seen a lot of deer each & every day I've spent in the woods.

The tone I get from reading these posts is there is a department cabal to overstate the deer herd for some unkown reason. I personally know 7 COs and 4 biologist and all of them are hard working good folks with no hidden agenda.

The Kentucky Department of Fish & Wildlife has done an excellant job with the deer herd. And with turkeys. I expect them to do the same with elk. Just because one species is established & they are working on a new one (i.e. elk), is no reason to not enforce deer law, they enforce all the laws. This past weekend I know one officer was called at 5:30AM about some shots & by 6:15 he had 3 young men in custody for poaching deer even though he wasn't fully dressed.

These folks really do try to do a good job & I believe for the most part they do. Are all of your co-workers perfect???

[Xtreme]

Guys, there is no way in hell that an accurate record is being kept of our deer herd. For one...if you are in a zone 1 county that has a county or counties that border it and they are zone 2, 3 or 4 then if you want to be slick you just call it in as harvested in a zone 1 county.

Granted few will even go to that much trouble but I am sure it is being done. Get a map out and look at the counties and numbers and you will see what I mean[;)] Take for instance Edmonson county. Granted a lot of it is taken by the Mammoth Cave National park but there is a corn pile every hundred feet around the border not to mention countless"uninvited" guests. As of yesterday they harvested only 362 deer so far? Lunacy my friends[:(].....[xx(]

[rlb165]

Salty, it seems like just about EVERYBODY who hunts in Owen County believes the Dept's model, and thinks they are doing a good job.

Heck, if I hunted mostly in Owen county, I would probably build a shrine to the Dept, and worship them!![8D]

BUT...,sometimes it feels like F&W's model is BASED on Owen county. Look at the Harvest Comparison, Owen is in a league all its own. The Harvest seems to go up pretty good every single year. That's not the case in most of the other counties that I kinda' try to keep up with.


Richard

[Highbow]

Salty, if you were to get out of OWEN Co you might find things much different, I'm speaking from the east end of the state and refer to 8 Co area that I cover weekly. There is another world out there. I didn't put down COs or biologist several are friends of mine and I hear from them all the time about how the Dept puts limits on what can or cannot do and how their funds are cut so they can't do land improvements. My son is a state employee and this goes on in all Dept., I'm glad Owen has deer running out its edges but count your lucky stars that you have a wealthy county.

[Salty]

I used to hunt Clark Co., Pioneer Weapons, LBL, Ft. Knox & Ft. Campbell & LBAD when I could get drawn. My hunting buddy & I decided several years ago that we were spending a lot of money running around trying to hunt places that were not as productive as what we owned in Owen Co. so we gave up trying to hunt other places. Normally, I would try to kill a doe to eat & only kill a buck if he was bigger that what I already had, but this year I heard so much talk of over population, I harvested 1 buck & 2 does (lost another one). From what I reading, I think we'll just stay in Owen Co.

[Xtreme]

Salty, I have several friends in the dept. I consider Roy Grimes a friend of mine and I have worked with him and other employees quite a bit in regards to the Archery in the Schools program. I don't always agree with what he as well as others think in regards of some issues but I still respect all of them as well as the commissioners.

[Boss Gobbler]

I like to call Owen co. the war zone, hunt there and you will know why.I would bet that they are twice as many hunters in owen as others, which will lead to more deer running, getting seen, and shot. As for the Dept. F&W they are a company with a pay role, mo money,mo money, As long as Ky looks like a hunting heaven the money rolls in. Granted we have good hunting, but somethings in the air.

[Xtreme]

Beware of success. I spoke with a fellow from Pike co. Il. last year at the AMO show and he said he can't even hunt on his neighbors farm because it is leased up by outfitters. He said Pike , Brown and one other county are nothing but one huge outfit that the locals cannot hunt any more. Lease prices for property are outrageous according to this fellow.

Food for thought.

[Salty]

Boss G - I spent the entire first week of gun season in Owen County....bet I didn't hear 40 shots all week.....Several years ago it sounded somewhat like the '68 Tet Offensive, but now that all counties have a season there are not that many "imports". It's been at least 6 years since I've had a trespasser (one of us is almost always there during a gun season).

[Boss Gobbler]

My aunt had a farm in owen county about ten years ago. I hunted it alot, On the opening day that year I heard 40 shots before daylight. Scared me so bad aint been back. I actually saw a doe running across a ridge with a group of four guys shooting every shot they had across a road, and still didnt get it.

[Walt K]

I think many here are missing the big picture of our deer problem. Everyone seems to want to make the Department the whipping boy. The one buck rule and the QDM policy are biologically sound ideas. The biggest problem we have is all the good ole, bubba redneck boys, who haven't the slightest idea what hunting ethics are or who really don't give a rat's butt about it anyway. It's these guys, who refuse to obey the laws, punch in false Telecheck numbers, leave does laying, and shoot multiple bucks that have thrown the wrench in the system. I have never hunted any other state where I have witnessed so much fudging on the rules. It makes me wonder how some of these so called hunters can look in the mirror, and how they can show off bucks on the wall, that aren't even taken lawfully. I too,(word of mouth) heard of a bowhunter who took a nice ten point, and then during gun season, shot another monster because he couldn't stand it. AND! he was taking it to a taxidermist! If it's not a legal buck, how could anyone brag on it? Unless Kentucky hunters wake up and get a conscience, it will never be right no matter what systems the Dept. uses to manage our deer herd.

[Xtreme]

I will agree with several statements there Walt...but. All of the conscience and vigilance by sportsmen in the world won't be able to make up for a lack of real accountability on our game numbers. Very few of the crimes are known to any one in time to make a difference.

Yes deals like the two bucks are fairly easy to trace but the poached doe or hen turkey are here today gone tommorow. Not to mention the gun shot deer in bow season etc. At least with a check in station you could catch some of these fools. Yes check stations are not fool proof and I hated the sight of all the bubba's driving their deer mounted on top of the hood for all to see thir bloody prize. That gave hunters a lot of bad PR. But the fact remains we in this state have a system with a few holes in it.

I know for a fact the "mystique" of how efficient our CO was has dropped drastically since tel e check. Back in those days tales abounded of how he magically appeared out of thin air to catch an offender but in most cases he just saw something that caught his eye on one of the check in cards or got a tip from someone who noticed the funny looking "broadhead" hole in the big buck some guy just brought in.

I know, I used to help at check in stations and have seen all of the above. Can you imagine what would happen on Ft. Knox if they ever went to tel e check?? Not arguing here my old writer/bow bending peezo, just food for thought[;)]

[Big58cal]

I think you guys are getting off of the original topic a little. It basically started out about how the telecheck numbers were off compared to what people were seeing.

The primary problem that I see is that the KDFWR isn't listening to the majority of the sportsmen and women in the state. If these people are seeing low deer numbers throughout the entire county, but yet according to the F&W model, the KDFWR is still saying "kill more does" in that county, then something is wrong. They need to do some old fashion foot-work and get out there and see for themselves instead of sitting in an office all day and looking at what their "model" is telling them. Bubba and Joe Bob may be killing deer, leaving them lay, and not checking them in. This is lowering the population for the area, but it isn't getting input into the "model".

It would be quite extensive and cost quite a bit of money, but what I think the KDFWR should do is send a questionaire to EVERY deer hunter that bought/was issued a deer tag. Ask the hunters what they are seeing and what they think the zone # should be for the county or counties they hunt in. Based on this information, then they could possibly make a decision on the harvest regulations based upon what the hunters want.

I too know several people that work for the KDFWR. The majority are really good, honest, hard working people. The problem comes in when you get Management involved. Think of the place that you work now. If you work on the floor, how many times does the people in Management come out to talk to you or ask your opinions? Or how often to they receive feedback from their customers as to how they are doing? Where I work, we send out CSI's (Customer Satisfaction Index) to our customers each week. Based upon what our customers are telling us, that is how we run the business. The survey that I mentioned above would be basically this same thing.

[Marvin Campbell]

I agree Big58Cal!

How about cyber hunters putting an electronic survey form on this website for every one to download, fill out, sign and mail in to KDFWR?

[Multidigits]

I like Marvin's idea. I'll be giving it some thought.

As far as the Dept. and these damn numbers. I've chatted with Roy himself about this on several ocasions. He doesn't think the number of deer poached is very high simple because people don't poach in front of him like the average hunter sees. At least when CSS was posting, he admitted that he thought the number of illegals was at least 50,000 and might be as high as 100,000. You know for the computer model, they used to count this number as 11,000 and now they use 18,000(last I heard). It's easy for me to see that the population estimates are screwed up big time.

[Highbow]

Great post guys, and Yes, this is what my arguement has been all the time. The check station was good for sportsmen and yes it did make the CO seen by more hunters and put more of a image in their mind, now all you hear is shoot more deer and heck fire Frankfort doesn't care how many you kill. THIS IS BAD PR FOR THE DEPT. and I for one care about my hunting area because it isn't a leased farm where the Dept is doing all the improvements for me and protecting my hunting grounds. We need the chance once again to have public contact with the CO at a check station and put a stop to CO's telling the taxidermist to just mount the deer brought to them and quit worrying with who killed, someone will take their if you don't, so what if grandma has never bought a license or been in the woods???? I hate to complain but this is real and this what goes on, LET'S DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE THE SITUATION or Just say kill what you will and be done with it.

[Big58cal]

I'll start working on a survey. I'm going to start another topic for what everyone wants as far as questions.

[handgunner]

One thing not mentioned here on the sightings of deer. It was once that our gun season was the main season. It seems as though now a lot of hunters are in the woods prior to that. With the advancements in archery and muzzle loading equipment, coupled with the desire to be outdoors, deer are very pressured prior to gun season. I rember when it was hard to find many people that deer hunted other than gun season, and now a lot of them are tagged out before. I feel poaching is a big problem and getting worse. QDM is great on a limited basis, we need to remember that even a spike is a first timers trophy.

[GSP]

Handgunner, you back? How was the hunting?

[handgunner]

gsp, had a really great time, seen lots of deer, shot a good one in Wisconsin, it crossed the fence and neighbor got it, will explain later. Got a nice 9 point in Ohio, its a shame, back to work tomorrow. Looking forward to muzzle loader.

[GSP]

I'll catch up with you Monday or Tuesday. Glad you had a good trip.