QDM thought

[shogan]

Ok let me get this out of the way! Shogan you don't know beans about QDM, deer, or hunting in general. Your just one of them weekend warriors who's only thought is go out opening weekend and shoot a deer. Hence your a shooter. Leave QDM to us Hunters.

If I were a big ole 37 point buck where would I be. In an area where the owners have thinned out the does and theres a bunch of 8-10 point 2 and 3 year olds running around bidding for the same packages as me.

Or an area where there's a whole lot of Does in Heat and other bucks are less scarce.

This thought just crossed my mind. I'm not saying it's right but I was thinking if I were a BUCK in need of spreading the seed what area's would I gravitate towards.

[Multidigits]

AHHH Shogan....for once your getting hot!!! QDM means a lot of different things to different folks, as you can tell by some of the posts on this board. What it means to me is having a herd that is well managed, is in good health, has a good, solid age class difference(verses one with only a few buck over 1 1/2 years old), and is close to a 1:1 buck/doe ratio.

Now, depending on where your hunting, you could have that combination with a deer density as high as 35-40 deer per sq. mi. or even higher OR as low as 10 per sq. mi or even less. I think most people that hunt would perfer the first one as long as the carrying capacity of the land will handle it. Dr. James Kroll has said that farm country generally can support 30 to 60 deer per square. Yet the Dept. want to maintain only in the 25 to 30 per sq. mi.. Sure in Eastern Kentucky the carrying capacity will be less than that in the grain belt. So before you can practice much QDM on your land you need to know what it will support, and how many you have to start with. Just shooting ever doe you se without this info will just be shooting yourself in the foot, as Shogan has pointed out.

[shogan]

Though I'm not sure what part of my statement you are saying is a step in the right direction, I'm just happy I said somting right.

Quick someone close this post before someone else tells me I'm wrong.

Of course the scientific community use to think the world was flat!

[Wildcat]

Shogan,
If you were a 37 point affressive buck it wouldn't mater where you were you would be boss until some whipersnapper pushed you off your throne.[:D]

Like Mults said, QDM is different to different people. Some thing it's all about bigger and older bucks when it about a healthy balanced deer herd. Biger older bucks is nothing more than a by-product of a healthy balanced deer herd. Anything more than that is trophy management.

What your asking what the buck would rather have, he takes what he can. But ask what the hunters would rather have. A long drawn out rut with all the spikes, 4 pointers and all the rest of the bucks chasing the does or a real sharp rut with just the bigger older bucks doing the work. Where there is an out of balanced deer hred you will have a long rut with all the bucks doing thr rutting, the big boys can't cover all the does if there are too many and will be more than happy to let the younger ones have their time. The older bucks will not have to travel much to find all the does he can handle. But bring that herd into balance and you will have a hot rut with buck fights and the older ones running all over the place chasing does and pushing the younger ones away, just like nature intended.

Another thing people don't understand is herd dynamicsn in QDM. Herd dynamics are very complex and one of the hardest things to explain to the hunters are herd dynamics and fawn production. having "X" nimbers of does does "NOT" mean you will have "X" numbers of fawns, in fact offten the opposite is true. Fawn production is NOT a given and is driven by herd-dyaniey-quality relationship, a nature immutable law. The law is that a herd density increases, over-all herd health decreases. When that happens the average weight of the deer by age class decreases. You have to understand that fawn per doe decreases as the herd density incresses.In essence each doe products the maximum number of fawns at THE LOWESTS DEER DENSITY. The high quality food is spread out over more mouths to feed when the density is high which in trun lowers the weight of the deer. Then nature takes over by producting less fawns, theres no reason on earth an underweight doe would producte healthy fawns. Those unhealthy fawns have a high rate of NOT surveying. Mults, is right about what Dr.Knoll said. But by keeping the herd UNDER the carrying capabillity of the land there is more than enough quality food to go around which in trun makes for more healthy deer.

I really do wish I could show you all my place. Last summer we estimated the ratio on the place at 4-1 and it looks like we've been able to bring it down enough this season. We'll know for sure with the cameras next summer.

[Multidigits]

What Wildcat is saying wold only apply "if" the carry capacity was exceded. The deer at carrying capacity or under all have plenty to eat. That's what the words carrying capacity mean.

I disagree that the amount of deer has an effect on the length of the rut. The rut will only last till the last doe is bred. This might take one or two days or several months, depending on the doe and when she comes in estrus. At that time she is normally bred by the dominate buck, almost always, as the pecking order was set long ago. If she doesn't get bred for some reason, she'll come in 28 days later. Young non-dominate bucks getting to bred doesn't happen much unless there is an unexpected death in the deer family, which sometimes happens during the rut.

Last, having bigger, older bucks is not a by product of a balanced herd. You could have a 1:1 ratio and not have any bucks over age 1 1/2 if your herd was small and the hunting pressure high enough. Having bigger, older bucks is a by-product of letting the young bucks live to an older age.

I am curious as to how your herd got to be out of balance to the point of 4 does to one buck. We've been on a one buck limit for years(12) and have always been able to kill more does than that. As you know, bucks/does are at about a 51/49 rate.

[KYhunter]

To me, this is by far the most interesting thread going. I wouldn't mind having Holedigger's view on things also. Also seems like one of those deals that the more you know, the more you realize what you DON'T know. Hopefully I can sort out what has been said and add my two cents.

[Wildcat]

Multidigits,
Nobody ever wants to reach carring capacity, we want to keep it UNDER carring capacity. Once you hit the line on carring capacity it's too easy to go over then we will really be in a miss like Pennsylvania was in and look at what they've had to do to try to bring their herd in balance.

I disagree. If we only had ONE age class of deer, all deer being the same age like 1 1/2 then in a balanced herd with a 1-1 ratio then your idea would be right. But that's not the way it is in the wild. nor is that the way I would ever want it. A good healthy balanced herd has a balance in ALL AGE CLASSES. Like I said anything over that is trophy management. You don't have to beleive me, just ask the managers of those big ranges in Texas they manage for trophy.

I never once said the number of deer has an effect on the rut. I said in an out of balance herd the rut will be drawn out with the smaller bucks doing most of the breding. I've seen it my self when I lived in Tn for 27 years but hunted here at home and TN. The difference between those two are like night and day. Tn used to have a 11 buck limit then started to come down to their 3 buck limit when things got out of hand. Today most of the hunters in Tn have never seen a real rut, everybody reports that they never see any good big bucks running any of the does, in fact all they see are smaller bucks doing all the work. The hunters of Tn has grouped together to push for more and better management of their deer herd. They joke between them selves about their rut because it is so drawn out and they never see anything like we do in some parts of KY.

As for the ratio, the only thing a one buck limit guarantees is SOME of the bucks will reach old age. You, your self have post on here a number of times that KDFWR does NOT know how many deer we have in KY. Now if I'm to beleive that then I can never go by their numbers on anything, not ever the reported kills that they put out every season. My own cameras have proven to me how many deer and what the ratio is over the last 5 years on my place and the farms around me.

It is NOT hard to let a herd get out of balance with a 1 buck limit. Try this, put 10 hunters out with those limits, now some of those hunters are NEVER going to shoot a doe no mater what. Now lets say those 10 hunters take 6 bucks and 2 does a year and don't forget the poachers. The poachers shoot the racks so lets give them 2 more bucks. So far that's 8 bucks and 2 does a year, do that for 5 years and try to tell me that is a balanced herd. That's just an example, I'm not saying that happens everywhere just trying to show it is not that hard to get a herd unbalanced.

Right now I'm enjoying the fruits of my labors of managing my couisns two farms and the 5 farms between us for the past 5 years. Acourding to the cameras and what we all have seen our selves, we now have good healthy balanced herd with big bucks of all age classes. So far this year we have been able to take several 10, 12 and 14 pointers with more out there and KNOW there are several good 2 1/2 year old bucks to take their place next year.


Multidigits, I'm not trying to fight with you so why don't you tell me just what your trying to do, are you trying to increase the herd, grow bigger bucks, or what? That way I can understand where your coming from. I'm just trying to show that having a balanced herd works for everybody, it sure works on my place. What people want to do on their place is their bussiness, I don't care as long as it does not effect me and the time and money I've put into my place.

Over all I think KDFWR is doing a great job. I've been to several hunting shows across the nation and all the people in the deer managment business are talking about KY, they are saying it is the most progressive state as far as deer hunting goes. My hat's off to KDFWR for giving the hunters the tools they need to manage their herds.

[rlb165]

Wildcat, Why do you think other states' Wildlife Dept's DON'T give hunters the tools (I guess you mean more doe tags) to manage their herds? Why can't other states be as progressive?

[Multidigits]

Wildcat in reality, we both want the same thing. and I know RLB wants the same thing. The difference is that we have property in areas that are or were recently Zone 1 counties but have very low deer numbers. In fact, those area being left a Zone 1 for a year or two too long has really effected the hunting in those areas. Take a look at some of the counties in the central part of the state or in the east n the Depts. web site harvest data comparision chart. Most show steady decline since the 2000 season. Then take a look at the Kentucky State Police web sight at the road kill data and those graaphs show the same results. Then look at the overall deer kill for the past 4 years and see if it shows that the herd is expanding like the Dept. says. Some of us don't believe it is. We have different reason on what we think is behind the misconception, but it's there none the less.

Kentucky's deer herd is being talked about at hunting shows only because of the one buck limit starting to take effect. We are know able to record about 20 B & C bucks a year, verses the 8 to 10 before the one buck limit. Yet, more and more of the states own hunters are dissatisfied by the results and overall deer herd numbers.

I while back I got in on a large tract of ground in a Zone 1 county. I asked several of our biologists for an estimate number of deer per sq. mi. in that area. I heard numbers from 10 per sq. mi. to 25 per sq. mi. They didn't know and couldn't tell me. But they did recommend shooting plenty of does? Now, how could they advise that with out knowing the number of deer on the tract?

Then we heard on here a while back that the buck/doe ratio is never going to be over 1:2 or 1:3 anywhere in the state. This was by Gassett. Yet, your seeing a 1:4 ratio and are shooting does based on that. Are you sure??? What is the number of deer per sq. mi. in your area??? those are things i'd want to know before I would recommend shooting ever doe that you see. As I say, you can balance the herd at different levels of population. I'd just perfer a higher level and you'd perfer a lower level.

You make reference to Tn. and young bucks doing the breding. The only way a young buck is going to do anything other then an occasional breding is if there are no old bucks. The dominate buck will do the breding. these young bucks are the dominate buck if they are doing the breding. But it doesn't effect the length of the bredding cycle of the does. This is controlled by the does and other factors such as the moon and weather.

I've known several poachers in the past and they shoot what's available, not just bucks. In fact, I'd say most are does because they are more visable most of the time. It's a crime of oppurtunity. What ever the light falls on gets it.

As fas as other states mamagement practices. I don't know of any southern states that don't have very liberal doe limits. Who are they? I like the way Indiana does it. The base herd estimates on what hunters killed the past year. If the kill was up, the deer herd was up. If the kill was down, the deer herd was down. All other factors(hunter numbers, etc.) being the same. In 10 years, Indiana will out pace Kentucky in the B & C record book as long as the one buck limit stays in effect. They manage their doe harvest on a as needed basis, like it should be done. Most hunters don't know how to manage their herd and rely on their Dept. of F & G for the guidance. Not be given a blank check and then sit back and hope the bank gets balanced.

Good luck with your deer and QDM efforts.

[KYhunter]

Best thread going- by far. A couple of morsels for thought. I hunted Cave Run lake pretty hard for a few years, back when does were sacred. In a one day hunt I saw 54 does and one small buck. One evening I was sitting one plot and a buddy another(during gun season)- I had 28 does in the plot I was sitting and he had 16 does in his plot(within 200 yards of each other) until FINALLY a small buck came out to chase a few does around. That was an out-of-balanced herd for sure. Where were the bucks? Big bucks? Chasing? I do not know. It also is tough to compare state to state. Indiana WILL grow large deer, regardless, due to it being a more northern state, more grain, and the rapid expanse of "city folk" buying small farms where unbeknowngst to them big bucks flourish. I grew up in northern Ohio, and I always saw more big bucks up there than down here, but we had LESS deer. Also on a trip a few years back to Iowa, I saw more big bucks out there in one week than I had seen in my entire life total,yet it did not seem like they had an over abundance of does.

[shogan]

Dang Did I do this!

[shogan]

It seems moving this topic out of the deer category was the kiss of death!

[Wes Parrish]

Since I am affiliated with the Quality Deer Management Association
(www.qdma.com), and have a sincere interest in both the deer herd management of Kentucky & TN, would like to share a little info and my personal observations.

I have been an avid deer hunter for over 30 years. Most of my deer hunting has been along the TN-KY line (both sides) in Obion & Weakley Co., TN - Fulton Co., KY and Stewart Co., TN - Trigg Co., KY.

It's my opinion that neither the KY nor the TN game departments know how many deer per square mile they have in most counties. While some of you may have legitimate complaints about how KY is managing the deer herd, you would probably be less satisfied if you were hunting in Tennessee.

There is literally a "day vs. night" difference in the quality of November rut hunting experienced in Kentucky vs. Tennessee. In similar habitat and in adjoining counties - only separated by the state line - I'm talking the same genetics - the same everything - only different regulations. I WOULD NOT TRADE 7 NOVEMBER DAYS OF GUN HUNTING IN KENTUCKY FOR 30 NOVEMBER DAYS OF GUN HUNTING IN TENNESSEE. Until and unless you hunt extensively in both states, you cannot appreciate where I'm coming from.

In Tennessee, yearling bucks do most of the breeding. Yes, we have a few dominant, mature bucks, but they do not do most of the breeding. When 50 does come into heat with 72 hours for every mature buck we have, it is both impossible for the mature buck to breed but a few of them and impossible for that mature buck to prevent the yearlings from doing most of it. In Tennessee, the yearling bucks are very involved in the rut.

On the other hand, I do not see yearling bucks participating much in the Kentucky rut. I see yearling bucks feeding on acorns while mature ones are chasing does in KY. Not only that, but I actually see a lot of good bucks in KY while hunting. What few mature bucks we have in Tennessee, they're not very motivated to move during daylight. Most of the dominant does actually search them out. The does come to them.

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is about managing for a healthy deer herd, more as nature intended. Ideally, this would be near a 1:1 ratio of bucks to does. It is not about trophy buck management, although a side benefit of QDM is that there will be more trophy bucks as compared with "restorative" deer management where does are protected. One of the first goals of QDM, is to approach a 1:1 ratio. You don't need to know the number of deer per square mile to know if deer are overbrowsing their habitat, or to know if harvested deer weights are increasing or decreasing. Some habitat is above healthy carrying capacity at only 10 deer per square mile, while some can support over 45.

Even with much lower deer densities, you will see more bucks if you have a 1:1 ratio of bucks to does. Consider this hypothetical 10-square-mile tract just south of the KY line in TN. It has 400 deer (40 per square mile), but only 50 are bucks (7 does to 1 buck ratio), with only 3 being "mature".
Adjoining this tract is a similar one on the KY line side. It has only 200 deer, but 100 are bucks (1:1 ratio), with 20 of them being "mature" ones. On average, the body weights of the KY deer (both does and bucks) is 20% heavier than the TN deer, despite the similar habitat and genetics. Only difference is regulations.

The KY deer benefit from a better diet (more acres per deer, so each gets higher quality forage) and the just-coming-to-light importance of "social dynamics". Part of the "social dynamic" equation is that in the presence of more mature bucks, younger bucks do less breeding and more feeding, thus producing larger bodies and antlers at all ages.

And with a better buck:doe ratio, more of the does are bred closer to the same time, thus more fawns are born at about the same time. The importance of more fawns being born at the same time is that survival skyrockets. But when the does are breed over several weeks, fawns are born over several weeks. Coyotes and dogs can only take a small percentage of the fawns when they're all born about the same week. But spread them out over 6 weeks, and half may be lost to preditors.

In the above example, the 20 mature KY bucks are very active during daylight hours in November. The 3 mature TN bucks are almost totally nocturnal. If you could hunt 2 weeks with a rifle, where would you rather hunt?

This year (November 2002), I've hunted 10 days with a rifle and 7 days with a muzzleloader in TN near the KY-TN state line. In 17 whole days of hunting, I have passed up several yearling bucks in TN, but not even seen one that would score 125 or more. In fact, I haven't seen any older than 2 1/2. While there's a few around, theres so many more does than bucks that the mature bucks don't need to be looking --- they've got all the does they can handle just beating their door down. Fortunately, I hunt in Kentucky as well as TN. I did take a nice 140-class buck in KY the 2nd morning I hunted this year in Trigg Co.

While many of you have some very logical and legitimate concerns about the way KY is handing out the doe permits, and they may not have anything more than a wild guess about the deer densities, you probably should be more concerned about not taking enough does, rather than too many in most areas.

Even in areas with a 1:1 ratio, you should be taking about 1.2 does for every buck just to hold the population stable. Buck mortality is much higher than doe, even in unhunted environments. And I really believe there's a lot more bucks being poached than does. Should you have an overharvest of does, fawn recruitment will skyrocket to compensate.

While harvest numbers will have correlation with deer densities, so does the acorn crop. I don't know about all of KY, but this year TN has about the largest mast crop I've ever seen. Despite our herd being at a record high, deer movement is much less than normal simply because of the record acorn crop. Consequently, harvest numbers are down this year in many areas of Tennessee.

I'm not suggesting that KY doesn't need to make some changes, just want you to know I wish TN were doing as good of a job as KY is doing. We may get to hunt longer down here, but your hunting up there is more productive. Again, I WOULDN'T TRADE 7 NOVEMBER DAYS OF KY HUNTING FOR 30 NOVEMBER DAYS OF TN HUNTING, that coming from someone who hunts a lot in both states.

[KYhunter]

Wes- welcome to the forum! I enjoyed your post and its insight.

[rlb165]

Wes, WELCOME TO KENTUCKYHUNTING.COM!! I lurk a lot over at TNdeer, and I've read several of your posts. I appreciate the enthusiasm with which you promote QDM.

Unfortunately, I spend a great deal of time torn between despair, rage, and depression over how few, if any, deer that I see on my farm, that I bought specifically to deer hunt on. (I'm in a Zone 1 county).

You wrote: "Should you have an overharvest of does, fawn recruitment will skyrocket to compensate."

If that is the case, why did it take DECADES for the herd to get where it is (in places) from being overharvested during the last couple of centuries?

I can understand that a doe that doesn't have access to sufficient high-quality food will naturally have fewer fawns. BUT, if the habitat is that over-browsed, wouldn't it take YEARS for that habitat to recover to a point you would actually see a noticeable increase in the # of fawns born?

As I understand it, states that truly have too many deer in places, (PA and Wis. and TN, for example), have gotten that way because of a reluctance to harvest does. Since my goal in life (other than family stuff) is to increase the # of deer I see on my farm, it seems logical that I NOT shoot does here.(That is, assuming I'm given the chance to shoot a doe.)

I look forward to your response, as I think Wildcat has pretty much given up on 'splaining anything to me.[;)]

Again, Welcome to Kyhunting!!

Richard Burton

[Wes Parrish]

Richard,
When I said "Should you have an overharvest of does, fawn recruitment will skyrocket to compensate", I'm speaking in the context of your still having some does, and female fawns remaining. Should you overharvest, you would want to compensate the next year by reducing your female deer harvest.

As to your particular farm, I don't know why you're seeing so few deer, but might have a few possibilities. What would you estimate the deer density to be in the general area of your farm? What would make your farm more appealing to deer than the surrounding area around your farm? Is it possible that the local deer are more attracted to your neighbors' farms? Did you have a large acorn crop around your farm this year? In both the TN and KY areas I hunt, deer sightings are way down due to the tremendous acorn crop, yet we have more deer than last year.

"Why did it take DECADES for the herd to get where it is (in places) from being overharvested during the last couple of centuries?"
First, the deer weren't overharvested --- they were totally wiped out in most places. Wiping them out wasn't accomplished in one or two seasons, but a long period of time. My theory is that deer simply will not move very far from where they are born (usually less than 5 miles). When the deer herds were being restored, we had good habitat devoid of deer. Since it's not in a deer's nature to roam very far, they simply first increased their density in very local areas, and very slowly expanded into most areas over many years. Today, we have at least some deer in nearly all areas, so it's a different situation.

Overbrowsed habitat will take many years to get back to it's prior state. Does should have fewer fawns, as well as higher fawn mortality in overbrowsed habitat.

Sounds like you have a fairly low deer density on your farm, but that may or may not be indicative of the deer density in the general area around your farm. If I weren't going to shoot any does, then I wouldn't shoot any bucks either. If you want a high-quality deer herd, you need to keep the sexes in good balance. I would first try to make my farm more attractive (year-round)to the deer than the surrounding area, and see if the deer sightings didn't increase.

Lastly, certainly all Zone 1 counties are not equal. You may have a part of a Zone 1 county that is not being managed properly by your state game agency. When I praised KY's management, it was "as a whole for the entire state", realizing that they do have areas where they may be overharvesting the does, and other areas where they're not harvesting enough. I would hope they would make periodic adjustments, such as rezoning certain counties. We have similar problems in Tennessee, too. Tennessee is simply divided into two hunt units: Unit A and Unit B. Obviously, there's little micromanagement statewide going on here either, except where large landowners, small landowner partnerships, and hunt clubs have taken matters into their own hands, and hired professional deer managers.

One thing I am very sure of, in the presence of lots of cover, such as lots of dense pine or cedar thickets, 3 to 10 year-old clearcuts, etc., it is very difficult to shoot enough does no matter how hard you try. Different story on more open farms consisting of mostly pasture, fencerows, and small woods lots.

[rlb165]

Thanks for your response Wes.

Yes, this place could use some improvement. I hope to have some logging/clearcutting done if that works out. This place is 165 acres, 1/2 in woods (logged in the 80's) and 1/2 in pasture that is being allowed to grow up.

Acorns seem to be hit-or-miss this year, and my place was a miss. This year I've seen fewer acorns than ever before here. I didn't see the first persimmon. This is also the first year that my food plots have had any substantial use.

As far as deer density, I can't say for sure. The most deer I've seen lately was last year, I saw 6 (2 does, 2 fawns, 2 basket-racked bucks), early in the season. This year I saw 2 does and two fawns AFTER gun season, that is the first time I've seen that many deer after gun season. So maybe my whining is paying off.[8D]. I should say that even though I'm in a Zone 1 county, I'm just a few miles from 2 counties that are Zone 3. The info. I have from the Dept. says that a county is designated Zone 3 if the herd is estimated at 12~20 deer per sq. mile. I wouldn't be suprised if that is pretty close for this area.

I've taken a total of 3 does off this place since I bought it in '95. No bucks. The last doe I got was in '99. Don't get me wrong, I'm not by any means opposed to taking does-where it is needed. But after taking that doe in '99, I never saw a deer from a treestand in '00. I've kinda been in on-going panic attack since then. (Incidentally, I had only seen 4 deer here in '99). Now, the buzz is that since we won't kill enough deer, the Dept. is looking to split/extend gun season. I know there are places (even in this county) where deer do need thinning out, and I understand the rationale behind keeping the #'s under control, but it is so frustrating to put every spare penny and minute I've got into this place, and feel like I'm just wasting time and money.

To put it in perspective, imagine buying 2 or 3 Humvees, working on them every chance you get, then realizing you don't have reliable transportation. Does that make sense?

Thanks for listening, I've pretty much whined to everybody in this state, I'm having to go outside state lines to get anybody to pay attention to me now.[:p]

[Wes Parrish]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I would continue to diversify the habitat as much as possible. Ideally, you should have food, cover, and water year-round to help hold the deer on your property, and/or attract them in from the neighboring property. I suspect your lack of acorns plays heavily into what you have not seen this year. If there are any large corn fields within 2 or 3 miles of your place, I suspect there are the deer.

[Xtreme]

Where have you been Shogan??? May the gods of hunting bless you and your scientific view.

I said the same thing several times over the years and got the "aint you a dumb ass look"...but. If you are a healthy strapping male are you going to go to a place where a few females congregate and you have to whip or be whipped to get a little affection or are you gonna go where they are begging for it[:0][?]

It's kind of like the two bulls looking down at a field full of heifers.....the young bull says" hey lets run down there and breed one of those heifers"...The OLD bull just looks around slyly and says" let's walk down there and breed em all!".....Hang in there Shogan[:D][:o)][:D][:o)][;)]

[GSP]

Where is Shogan??????

[Wildcat]

rib165,
Sorry I've been gone so long, I have a limited amount of time and Wes can explain it much better than I ever could. My biggest pitfall is trying to express my self. On somethings I can understand it and work hard to make it all work but then i trun around to try to explain it to someone else and I get lost, it's like hunting those mature bucks. I post about it on TnDeer but it doesn't come out like it does when I have someone with me while we're scouting, I can show him and explain it easy but I just can't seem to write it. That's one reason I told Wes about this site, he's much better than I am plus he hunts Ky too.

I also have been wondering where Shogan was. I enjoyed talking with him though the emails.