About the 30-30

[Clint_Doom]

yesterday i was buying some 30-30 shells and i usually buy 150gr.powerpoint and i acadiently bought 30-30 170gr. power point i no there is know problem threre but i was wondering if a 170 gr will shoot harder or farther than a 150gr

[Clint_Doom]

so my qustion is what is the difference............

[tnRick]

You will probably not be able to tell a difference in the power or how hard the 170 shoots, but you will most likely be able to see a drop in the shot placement.

Rick

Hunt hard, Hunt often, Hunt Safe

[Salty]

tnRick is correct, you won't see much difference unless you hit a shoulder blade.......then the 170 will penetrate better.

[shogan]

But with added weight comes loss of speed and distance. YES NO

[INKYHUNTER]

The 150 Gr. is about 200 fps faster at 100 yds. about the same at 300 Yds. At 300 yds. only about a 1.5 inch. difference in trajectory. Very little difference at mid range in trajectory.

[Strutter]

I would say you will feel a little more recoil as well.

[KY_Xcutter]

I've shot both of the two and have found that the 150 grain shoots better out of my gun ( Savage Bolt action ) the 170's shoot a little less accurate than the 150's at about 100 yards. As far as knock down power I can tell no difference.

[P. Beyer]

I don't shoot my 30-30 much, in fact I've had the same box
of (20) shells since 1998 (still have <b>5</b>), but that gun
(Marlin Lever action) has not yet failed to stop a deer <u><b>DEAD</b></u> in it's tracks.[8D]



"It makes no difference whether I got anything; it has to do with how the day was spent"

Fred Bear

[shogan]

Well this year was my first with a 30=06 after a few years of 30=30 (that always put the deer down fast). Of course I felt I really needed (wanted) a gun that could reach out beyond 200 yards and take one down and the 30=06 certainly can do that. But as I was looking through the scope I also so a lot of houses, roads, and other people places. These houses were not as big a concern with the 30=30 (partly because I set myself up for short range shots) Sure if I aimed the 30-30 high enough it could travel that far but not as easily as the 30=06.

I'm going back to 30=30 unless a particular situation warrants the 30-06 and assures safe shooting. Besides I still attest the 30=30 is fun and cheap to shoot.

[Salty]

Good article on 30-30 in this months American Rifleman..........it's still going strong.

[.300Savage]

I'll stick with my ol' .300 Savage lever-action. [;)]

Rocco

[kyhuntsman]

Rocco, How well do you likeyour 300 Savage? I'm a huge Zane Grey fan and have been looking to get one ever since I found out that he used the 300 Savage. What type and of ammo do you use? What grain? How well does it pattern?

I had a chance to pick one up at a gun show this year, but thought it was a littel steap for my pocketbook.

Thanks,
Matt

[.300Savage]

Matt,
I love my .300 Savage. I typically handload all of my shells, but I didn't get a chance to this year, so I got some Winchester Super-X softpoint 150 gr. bullet that shoot just fine. I usually only use a 150 gr. bullet and I can get cloverleafs out to close to 150 yds. I have hot-loaded some rounds with max powder, a magnum primer, and a 125 grain bullet, and I'll tell you what, that thing had no drop at all! I don't like to use that load for deer though, because it will go right through without expansion. I have never had a problem stopping deer with the 150's though. If you have any other questions about it, feel free to contact me via e-mail at: Rocco@123supply.com.

Rocco

[glenn]

Knock-down power....

explain it to me

[Salty]

The general accepted standard to measure "knock-down power" is kinetic energy and is obtained by the following formula:
Velocity squared divided by 450420 times bullet weight in grains. The resulting number is "foot pounds of energy". Most gun guru's suscribe to the theory that it takes at least 1000 fpe to dispatch a deer (2000 for elk) at the point of impact, since the bullet in constantly slowing down the energy delines with range. The flaw in kinetic (if there is one) is that it does not take into effect the diameter of the bullet. A lot of folks believe that the surface area of a large slow moving bullet such as 45-70, 44 mag etc, have a kill factor greater that the kinetic enegery shows. I think that is true, but there is not a reliable way to meaure it. Some use a formula based on momenum, but I don't know what the formula is..........and most folks would not recognize it.

[glenn]

Salty:

You gave it a good try....but my question was really a setup. There is no such thing as "knockdown power". A round, and in particular a specific bullet type are measured by two separate "ballistic components. The 1st ballistic component is that of the actual trajectory of the round.......feet per second at muzzle, hundred yards, etc....; and by the path the bullet takes (amount of drop at any given distance).

The second (and important to hunters) is the "terminal ballistics" component of the round/bullet. This is the measure of the bullet's ability to create shock to flesh, create wound channels and tissue destruction to promote hemorrhage/bleeding. There is no such bullet/round/caliber etc.... that will actually knock an animal down after it has been hit...not in the sense that the bullet has the force to actually move the animal and knock it down. The concept of knock down power was created by gun magizines for green horns to be capable of arguing that their .44 mag Desert Eagle has more knock down power than some other round(for example).

I will give you a perfect example of the illustration that I have provided above. Certainly a 45-70 is capable of killing a deer. However, when you look at what the bullet does, I contend that it is not near as effective as a lighter weight bullet or caliber...say the .243 or 25-06. The lighter weight calibers definately cause more tissue damage thereby causing more hemorrhage and shock. The bullet in these calibers might not even exit, thereby forcing ALL of its energy to stay within the animal with maximum expansion of the projectile....maximum tissue disruption...maximum hemorrhage. The 45-70 will more than likely exit, with the bullet relatively intact.

The end result with both shots are a dead deer.

However, in my experience there was no tracking jobs with .243/.270/ or 25-06. I would conclude that ballisticly the 45-70 is far down the list of a preferred deer cartridge.

The correct bullet used can make all the difference in the world for any given caliber. Make the wrong bullet sellection, and a long tracking job will be in someone's future.

Just remember this........if the bullet is capable of "knocking down" and animal (talking about big game) when it is hit, then it must knock you down when you shoot it.
For every action there is an opposite and opposing reaction.

Food for thought.....................

Happy Hunting!!

Glenn

[Salty]

Granted, I gave you the formula for energy. I understand internal, external & terminal ballistics. But faced with any angry grizzley bear, or even an upset black bear, which would you prefer: a 243 or 45-70??

[glenn]

Salty:

You have changed the parameters of the discussion!!!!
I thought we were discussing the killing of deer.

Certainly the size of game dictates the caliber necessary to do the job. A bear (at least a large bear) is much larger in mass than a whitetail. You would want a projectile that would penetrate deeper and have more mass to kill that kind of animal as opposed to a round that would expend its energy prior to getting to the "heart" of the vitals. That is why some would consider a .243 too light for elk. The elk has much more mass, is a thicker animal, and with potentially much more muscle and fiber to have the bullet penetrate before getting to the vitals (depending on shot placement etc...) I would never dream of going rhino hunting with a .22 long rifle, just like I would not use .300 win mag for shooting rabbits. Luckily for us, there are MANY calibers that do extremely well on whitetails. As long as shot placement is good, you have a dead deer.

In the beginning of this thread the question was asked about 150 gr. bullets as opposed to 180 gr. bullets. For deer, the obvious choice is the lighter bullet. The deer has less mass, is not that thick of an animal, so the lighter bullet will expand properly and timely so as to cause maximum damage to the vitals. The heavier bullet is designed more for thicker game, such as elk, or even bear. The projectile in this circumstance would need additional weight to carry it deeper into the animal prior to full expansion so that the OPTIMUM tissue disruption would occur prior to any exit.

The key is always to use the BEST round for the situation given.

As a police officer that is also a firearms instructor, I have come across a great deal of training regarding bullets and what they do. Medical examiners with their lectures, and pictures, provide a great perspective of what bullets do to the body. I also was a paramedic for 8 years and saw plenty of evidence of what they can do.

This is fun discussion...........

Hope you are enjoying it also.

Glenn

[Salty]

I got into this discussion trying to give a reasonable answer to a question. Daily, I get honest questions of like "how far can I shoot this gun?" or "how far can I see through these binoculars?". I try to give an honest answer to some foolish questions without offending the guy asking. I know there is no such thing as "knock down", but usually the guy is trying to figure out which cal is more powerful & don't know how to read a ballistic chart. Yes, I changed the paramaters, but orignally you didn't ask a question you wanted an answer for, but instead laid a trap.

I yield, "you da man". BTW where to you find 180gr 30-30 ammo???

[Flintlock54]

You fellers are making this way too complicated.[:)] Just give my a 213 grain 54 caliber round ball and I'll take any game native to North America. Granted they are a little tough on squirrels and there are not enough of a quail left to worry about.

[globemountain]

Salty:

You gave it a good try....but my question was really a setup. There is no such thing as "knockdown power". A round, and in particular a specific bullet type are measured by two separate "ballistic components. The 1st ballistic component is that of the actual trajectory of the round.......feet per second at muzzle, hundred yards, etc....; and by the path the bullet takes (amount of drop at any given distance).

The second (and important to hunters) is the "terminal ballistics" component of the round/bullet. This is the measure of the bullet's ability to create shock to flesh, create wound channels and tissue destruction to promote hemorrhage/bleeding. There is no such bullet/round/caliber etc.... that will actually knock an animal down after it has been hit...not in the sense that the bullet has the force to actually move the animal and knock it down. The concept of knock down power was created by gun magizines for green horns to be capable of arguing that their .44 mag Desert Eagle has more knock down power than some other round(for example).

I will give you a perfect example of the illustration that I have provided above. Certainly a 45-70 is capable of killing a deer. However, when you look at what the bullet does, I contend that it is not near as effective as a lighter weight bullet or caliber...say the .243 or 25-06. The lighter weight calibers definately cause more tissue damage thereby causing more hemorrhage and shock. The bullet in these calibers might not even exit, thereby forcing ALL of its energy to stay within the animal with maximum expansion of the projectile....maximum tissue disruption...maximum hemorrhage. The 45-70 will more than likely exit, with the bullet relatively intact.

The end result with both shots are a dead deer.

However, in my experience there was no tracking jobs with .243/.270/ or 25-06. I would conclude that ballisticly the 45-70 is far down the list of a preferred deer cartridge.

The correct bullet used can make all the difference in the world for any given caliber. Make the wrong bullet sellection, and a long tracking job will be in someone's future.

Just remember this........if the bullet is capable of "knocking down" and animal (talking about big game) when it is hit, then it must knock you down when you shoot it.
For every action there is an opposite and opposing reaction.

Food for thought.....................

Happy Hunting!!

GlennHmmmm.....I have to disagree a little here............. I have killed dear with .243 Winchester and .45/70 Gov. We refer to killing deer with the venerable .45/70 as "freight training 'em". A hand loaded .45/70 Gov. with a 300 grain HP at 2300 to 2400 fps is a force to reconned with inside of 100 yards.....gels them in their tracks, and what an exit hole!