Cranks Creek Special Use for High Profile Politicians?

[Hellbender]

Hey all. I don't post much, but this caught my attention and I was wondering what you all think of it.

from KRC: http://www.kyrc.org/webnewspro/123930534972657.shtml

Adventure Tourism Part Deux: KRC Critical Of Horse Council Letter to Fish and Wildlife Over Cranks Creek Trail Ride Posted: April 9, 2009

April 9, 2009

Dear Ms. Grulke:

During a review of Fish and Wildlife records as part of my ongoing monitoring of the "Adventure Tourism" initiative, I came across a March 12, 2009 e-mail from your office to Mark Cramer at KFDWR. I was taken aback by your email, in which your office sought to have the Special Permit for the Cranks Creek WMA Trail Ride issued "immediately[.]"

It would behoove your office to understand that the Cranks Creek Wildlife Management Area, and indeed all of the areas under the management of the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources, are literally "bought and paid for" not with taxpayer money, but by those purchasing hunting and fishing licenses. Those individuals have a reasonable expectation that any special use permit granted for a use that is not within the core management objectives for a WMA will be approved only after the agency is comfortable that the special use will be properly bounded and managed so as not to interfere with the primary management objectives.

The grant of a special use permit for the Cranks Creek WMA, where horseback riding is not generally permitted, is a privilege, not a right, and such a permit is granted at the discretion of the agency only after taking into account a number of legitimate ecological and management concerns. In this particular case, the Cranks Creek WMA borders a state nature preserve, and the possibility to damage to the ecological resources of that area is a significant concern not only to KDFWR, but to other agencies and to organizations such as KRC.

It might also be advisable in the future, to acquire a special use permit before you schedule a trail ride, so that the KDFWR is not placed in a position of having to consider approval or denial of a permit for an activity that has already been advertised and to which high-profile political officials or their spouses have been invited. Irrespective of the stature of any trail ride participant, it is a little much for your office or local officials to advertise a trail ride for which you have not yet received permission, and to then complain that the agency with management responsibility is not moving fast enough to approve the permit request to suit your agency.

KRC will continue, as it has since this initiative was launched, to work to assure that any expansion of the uses for which state lands are managed, whether for pedestrian, equine, or motorized use, is done carefully, thoughtfully, and in accordance with sound management principles and governing laws and regulations. I assume that your office would expect no less than that of any agency reviewing a special use permit request.

Cordially,


Tom FitzGerald
Director
Kentucky Resources Council, Inc.

[bassvax]

Wow...di guyz guy's got nadz of steel! Good on him :)

[trust me]

Who is this Grulke person? Who is the high-profile politician?

[BurleyDog]

Great post and great letter!

Whoever this person is they should be appauled for standing up for us

[GSP]

Who is this Grulke person? Who is the high-profile politician?

I'm guessing that is Ginny Grulke, she is the head of the KY Horse Council.

[ptbrauch]

Here's the link to contact the Ky Recreational Trails Authority, of which Ms. Grulke is the executive director of.

http://www.kentuckytourism.com/krta/krtacontact.htm

[ptbrauch]

Here's my letter:

It has come to my attention that recently Ms. Grulke demanded a special permit to have a trail ride on the Cranks Creek WMA. I would like to know when I can come hunt and fish on her property? Turkey season opens tomorrow, so I would like to have this permission granted immediately. I would like to be there tomorrow at sunrise. The hunters and fishermen of this great state would appreciate such a gesture of generosity. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

[big300mag]

I would guess by the way she assumed she would just get her way and her obvious indifference to whether her trail riding would offend other users of the area, she is probably a liberal. Maybe Mr. Obama is her high profile political guest. :rolleyes:

[GSP]

Before y'all blast her out of the water, you may want to wait on some more details.

[CanisMajor]

Here's my letter:

It has come to my attention that recently Ms. Grulke demanded a special permit to have a trail ride on the Cranks Creek WMA. I would like to know when I can come hunt and fish on her property? Turkey season opens tomorrow, so I would like to have this permission granted immediately. I would like to be there tomorrow at sunrise. The hunters and fishermen of this great state would appreciate such a gesture of generosity. I look forward to hearing from you soon.




ROTFL! Ya made my day!

[duckslayer870]

Im not really suprised. I grew up around the horse industry and it is full of on GIN UUUU INE a holes. but as a whole community they are good people who want to enjoy nature on horseback, Which I might add it a good way to do it if you like horses. which also if done right with respect can be very low impact. I have rode possibly over a 1k in my short life of nearly 30 years and have seen tons of beautiful sites that I would durn sure never would have walked to and tons of game that doesnt seem to be bothered by horses. I agree with the director of the F&W. They went about asking in a rather rude fashion and in the wrong way. This gal probably figured that if she threw around some names she would get here way. Just like 4 wheelin, horse back riding can be low impact but a few buttholes ruin it for everyone by breaking the rules.

[rgb62]

Here's my letter:

It has come to my attention that recently Ms. Grulke demanded a special permit to have a trail ride on the Cranks Creek WMA. I would like to know when I can come hunt and fish on her property? Turkey season opens tomorrow, so I would like to have this permission granted immediately. I would like to be there tomorrow at sunrise. The hunters and fishermen of this great state would appreciate such a gesture of generosity. I look forward to hearing from you soon.




That's great! Please let us know if you get a response.

If this is anything like the fiasco at Pine Mt. WMA, the county is probably up there with a dozer building a trail right now. For anyone that thinks this is a low impact activity, you should go check out the road they built for horses up there. That is, if it hasn't slid off the mt with all this rain. If I had to guess, I'd say the high profile participants are the same ones that have been promoting Adventure Tourism as a way to save eastern KY.

[rgb62]

Did a little digging and found this in the Harlan paper. I guess this answers the question about who the high profile folks are.

Anticipation rising for horseback ride
by JOHN MIDDLETON — Staff Writer
04.18.09 - 12:41 am



An upcoming horseback ride featuring Kentucky First Lady Jane Beshear and Lt. Governor Daniel Mongiardo and the success of permit sales at the Black Mountain Off-Road Adventure Area were among the items discussed during a meeting of the Harlan County Fiscal Court on Thursday.

Harlan Tourism Director Kim Collier discussed the May 16 horseback ride that the recently formed Harlan County Horse Trail Team has worked on since Mongiardo visited the area last summer.

“(Mongiardo and Beshear’s) idea was to have a big horse trail ride every so often and to get as many people as we can to come into the county for each event and spend money here and help the economy,” she said.

Collier said there has been a large amount of excitement surrounding the horseback ride.

“This is something that is fairly new for Harlan County, and we are hoping to expand on this. We are hoping to eventually have some horse trail rides near Putney,” she said.

She added that the event could propel adventure tourism within the county.

“This is just an event, but it is something that we can build on for the entire county,” Collier said. “We already have ATV trails, but we need more hiking trails, horseback trails and mountain bike trails. In every magisterial district, there are things that we can do to help and bring people in and create and develop more trails for different things.”

Collier then presented the court a budget for the ride.

“It is looking like you are going to bring in about $1,000 for registration and spend about $1,250 in expenses. So, that is approximately $250 that we would need to spend on this project,” she said.

Special permission to use trails at the Cranks Creek Wildlife Management area for the upcoming horseback ride has been granted by Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife officials.

Harlan County Outdoor Recreation Board Authority member Ken Crider later informed the fiscal court that approximately $23,000 in permits have been sold to those riding on the Black Mountain Off-Road Adventure Area in the last three weeks.

“People have been real receptive. We have actually had people to thank us for putting in the permit system,” Crider said. “They were afraid we would lose the park if we didn’t have any way to pay for it.”






© harlandaily.com 2009

[utkpres]

I take care of a stream gage on the Big South Fork recreation area. It is down in a ravine about a mile off the main road. We are limited on paper as to how many times we can drive down there to service it because they didn't want the road torn up by our vehicles. A few years ago they made the road part of a horse trail and they do more damage than our vehicles ever did. The whole road is loose sluff and washes badly during rains. I guess a few horses wouldn't be that bad but when you get 20 or 30 together it's another matter.

[ptbrauch]

Here's the response I got back:

As a life-long sportsman, I understand your concern about having a trail ride on the Cranks Creek Wildlife Management Area. I would like to take the opportunity to clear up a few misunderstandings regarding Ms. Grulke’s communication with the Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources.
Ms. Grulke is a member of the Kentucky Recreational Trails Authority, as is Commissioner Jon Gassett. However, the letter Ms. Grulke wrote in no manner expresses the views of the Kentucky Recreational Trails Authority, only that of her organization, the Kentucky Horse Council.

That being said, I would like to take the opportunity to explain that Ms. Grulke is being painted in a bad, and not so truthful light. In her letter, she did not demand access to the WMA, she only asked that a decision for a day use permit be rendered.

This past November, Ms. Grulke, along with members of the Harlan County Trails group and myself, met with Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources personnel. During that meeting, the process for obtaining a use permit was discussed and the KDFWR staff alluded to the fact that a permit would be issued upon receipt of an application. After submitting the application, the group waited three weeks before being informed that their application was not complete. They submitted the additional information, and then were told again that other steps were necessary to complete the application.

We have been working with the Commissioner and his staff to more adequately advertise and educate users of the process to obtain a use permit. This step will relieve any future misunderstandings and make the process more clear for future applicants.

Mr. , thank you for making me aware of your concern and allowing me the opportunity to provide you with some background information. If you have any more questions on this issue, please do not hesitate to communicate with me.

Sincerely,


Matt Osborne

Director of Adventure Tourism
Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet

[westkybanded]

When will they learn that hunters and fishermen make a MUCH larger economic impact than horse riders and canoers?

[quackrstackr]

When will they learn that hunters and fishermen make a MUCH larger economic impact than horse riders and canoers?

As soon as F&W grows a backbone and tells them that the people that bought and paid for that land are using it, go levee a fee for your own users and purchase your own land.

I've seen what the horses and atv's do to LBL. There is no such thing as low impact horseback riding or atv use if done on a regular basis.

[rgb62]

Thanks for posting the response. It seems pretty clear from his statements about making the process easier for future applicants that this won't be a one time event and we can expect to see more pressure for this type of activity on F&W management areas in the future.

[GSP]

I agree with Quackrstackr, everyone was ready to thump the person that wrote the letter requesting to ride horses and then it seems...
This past November, Ms. Grulke, along with members of the Harlan County Trails group and myself, met with Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources personnel. During that meeting, the process for obtaining a use permit was discussed and the KDFWR staff alluded to the fact that a permit would be issued upon receipt of an application.

Where are the letters and calls saying this is BS, don't issue permits and if so, levy fees??? You ever been to Clay Farm? That place is coved up with horses.

This was the reason I made the original post:
Before y'all blast her out of the water, you may want to wait on some more details.

[ptbrauch]

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering what KDFWR is thinking on all of this.

[rgb62]

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering what KDFWR is thinking on all of this.

Probably the same thing they were thinking when they signed an agreement with Letcher County to allow them to build a horse trail on Pine Mountain.

[ptbrauch]

Well, I've sent the Dept a message to find out what they think on this. I think everyone should if they disagree with the idea of horse rides on property we're supporting.

[slickhead slayer]

Well I intend to write Gasset as well, but I still have a bigtime problem with her and the whole adventure tourism cabinet. Here is what I wrote.

Ginny,
I have seen several e-mails in regards to your asking, or should I say demanding, special use permits for trail riding on a WMA. People who hunt and fish decided a long time ago that they need land in order to pursue their interest of hunting and fishing. In order to do that, fisherman and hunters decided to take funds from their purchased hunting and fishing licenses, and purchase land for said interest. What gives you the right to demand use to said property? Especially considering your activity is considered counter productive to hunting. Why don't horse riders associations suggest legislation to have trail riders pay a usage fee, and some of that money go to buying land for trail riding.
WMA's are not cheap to operate, and allowing horse back increases the operating cost. How are trail riders paying for this increase?
This entitlement mentality that you have exibited has rubbed alot of sportsmen the wrong way, sportsmen who may even be sympathetic to your cause. I suggest a different approach.
Sincerely,

[slickhead slayer]

Several other points. Like Qckr said, no such thing as low impact with horse or atv's. Its been tried everywhere, and its just not low impact.

I do take exception a little with Fish and wildlife, but not much. The two people that are spear heading this are Lt Gov Dan Mongiardo and First Lady Beshear. The Gov is Gassets boss, and his wife and Lt Gov are spearheading this. Anybody really believe he has a choice? None what so ever if he wants to keep his job.

Just more crap from the worst admin in Ky history.

[ptbrauch]

Here's the response I got back from the dept:

Thank you for your recent email concerning Harlan County ’s planned horse riding event on Cranks Creek WMA. I understand and respect your concerns relative to managing secondary public uses on our WMAs. The primary intended public use of our WMAs is for fish and wildlife related recreation and habitat conservation. I assure you that the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources (KDFWR) strives to maintain the integrity of the primary mission of our WMAs. Sportsmen and sportswomen pay for wildlife conservation in Kentucky , and we are proud to properly manage the lands that they helped us purchase.

We carefully manage and review requests for group events on our WMAs as judiciously as possible. We are particularly sensitive to potential land use conflicts during open hunting seasons and potential habitat damage. After a lengthy review of Harlan County ’s proposed event, we approved their use of the area under several terms and conditions. The terms and conditions are intended to prevent any permanent damage to the area. Their proposed ride is almost entirely on existing hiking trails on the area. We did not approve a permanent horse trail on the area, nor did we approve trail construction or the use of earth moving equipment. We always try to work with local groups who are interested in using our WMAs for various events as long as the primary intended use of the WMAs is not compromised.

Thanks again for your interest and concern in the management of KDFWR’s WMAs. We appreciate hearing from interested sportsmen and women who care about sound fish and wildlife management. It is always important to hear from those who pay for the conservation and maintenance of our WMAs.

Sincerely,

Mark S. Cramer
Wildlife Program Coordinator

[Ky'sFinest]

i am a hunter and horse rider and firmly agree with those that believe horse riders should not get a free ride through hunter purchased WMA's.

but i would like to see maybe a cooperation that would lead to more places to ride, but i would not want to see it ruin the hunting experience on the WMA's.

i think it would be great if somehow they could blend their money together somehow to satisfy both interests and expand them both. many horse riders are forced to riding roads if they are not wealthy land owners. in central ky, where i live and ride, roads are way busier than they were just 5 years ago. with population growth horse riders are facing many of the problems that all outdoors men are facing.

i guess to sum it up i would like to see as much outdoor oppertunities as possible. id much rather see support throughout the whole spectrum of outdoor recreation than to see more malls and eateries.

just my opinion, not trying to rub anyone the wrong way. i would like to see everyone benefit in there outdoor activities.