Hey Ralph/KBA....Turkey tag discussion.

[Xtreme]

Hey Ralph! I got my KBA newsletter and it looks like you guys are a good bunch to be a member of. I read where you were wanting a youth Fall Turkey permit? Explain what you have in mind and we will discuss it and maybe vote on something. I saw where you were not haveing much luck on the correspondence. Maybe KBA as well as Cyberhunters together could help this.

[Ralph]

I just thought that it would be nice, if a kid did not kill a turkey during the spring season why couldn't he use the tag during the Fall gun season? I left the flexibility, to price the tag, to F&W. It doesn't have to be a reduced-price tag. More value for the dollar would be a plus. I don't even have a kid that would be in the youth-tag ballgame, but I think more kids would get to go after fall turkey if that unused tag that was bought in the Spring was still good. I don't know why some people think that having to buy a kid ANOTHER tag (that probably will not get filled either)is of no concern to anyone. It would be a big deal to a lot of people I know. It would determine whether some kids hunted fall turkey or not. I do believe that. When they move the Turkey season to Thanksgiving weekend next year, wouldn't it be great if those kids that DID NOT get a spring turkey could share that weekend with an adult, trying to get the Thanksgiving turkey. Well, some will get to & SOME WON'T. I can't believe that everyone in KY is so well-off now that they have unlimited funds to hand over for all these different tags. That's the attitude I have run in to. "So, they have to buy another tag, so what? It's not a big deal. It wouldn't stop me from taking my kid." Well, I bet it won't take one night of this post to find someone that doesn't HAVE that kind of money, someone that works for every dollar that they have to spend on these UNFILLED tags. When I bring this up to anyone that would be involved in the process, you would think I was standing on their toe or something. I'm going huntin. See ya in a week or so! :)

[GSP]

To help your argument.
For me to take my daughter fishing, dove hunting, deer and turkey this year will cost me. $143.75

[Xtreme]

Sounds logical to me. Especially for folks who have more than one young un.

[Bowcrazy]

I think you've hit upon a great idea Ralph hope you can muster some support for it. (just now got the water out of all my equipment, remind me the next time I come to NKY to bring a boat)

[Xtreme]

It's about time you "surfaced" there Dale!!...Welcome back!![:D][:o)]

[Bowcrazy]

Been busy working and raising my three boys Rick. 14 year old broke his arm on a scout campout last weekend. There goes his chance at hunting Ballard on the youth hunt. I've been trying to follow the cyberhunters activity from time to time, but you guys move so fast it makes my head spin. (never did sort that porn thing out) Good hunting.

[Strutter]

I think the youth permit being carried over if not used is a great idea. Some people may have only a day or two to hunt the fall season and figure it's not worth the expense to hunt such a short time. For me and one son it's $30.00. In a couple more years it will be $45.00. I could buy several turkeys for that at Krogers. That's how a lot of people would look at it anyway. I own my own farm and don't have to buy tags and such but it would be nice to go other places and hunt without costing to much. Anyway, I think it's a great idea.

[Xtreme]

What should be the cut off age on the "recyclable" youth spring/fall tag? 18 yrs. old?..,,,,Guys I think we are getting close to a motion as well as a vote for a letter to be drafted. This is a noble idea indeed.

[GSP]

It is a great idea. I think we should let Ralph make the motion. I have a few questions and suggestions that may help, hurry back Ralph and tell us some good hunting stories.

[Ralph]

I am finally back from the "Wilds" of H-H & it wasn't that much fun. Boys, that place is getting SLAMMED like you wouldn't believe. No matter how far you walk or how long you sit your stand someone is always around you. Bummer. Anyway, I would very much appreciate any support I can get on this issue. Is this the place to make a motion? If it is, I hereby make it. If not, a little help on proper procedure would be appreciated.

Ralph

[GSP]

Hey Ralph, sorry to hear there were no good stories.
I have a thought I would like to throw into this ring. Since we are a part of the LKS. How about we vote this in as a resolution to the LKS? We (if passed by Cyber-Hunters) have had our say and we can work our contacts to get this passed. Then we can gain support (if passed by LKS)we will have even more leverage. Just a thought.
Give me your thoughts and opinions.
Rick- GSP

[shogan]

I would like to raise the age on the recylclable permit to say 40 for the next 7 years then bump it up to 50 for 10 years and then a seniors no tag required starting at the age of 50. Havn't we paid back the turkey program already. If not then I don't mind helping to pay for it.

[Ralph]

Sounds like a good idea to me, GSP. But it won't be well received, I can tell you that.

Ralph

[GSP]

I'm willing to call you on a bet there Ralph. I think the LKS will recieve this well.
I'll send you an e-mail and a bet (which you don't want to call) about this.[;)]
I think this is a wonderful idea that will get great support. How far along is the KBA with this?
Rick - GSP

[Birdman]

Ralph and GSP, I fill sure the league will back this, at least the directors. Of course something like this must be voted on by our people but there should be no problem. Now the commission my be a different story. Anything that cost the department money or the lose of money, will be hard for them to agree to.

[Ralph]

GSP, this is not a KBA move. It is mine alone. Lots of times things get tied to KBA because I am the President, but I have tried to keep this seperate as best I can. Birdman, I really don't see this is as a money loss item at all. If the kid goes hunting, Dad is going to spend money.If nothing else, for a pop & some chips, some gas, some gloves for Jr., none of which would have been spent if He had to buy Jr. ANOTHER TAG. The Dept. only exists to raise revenue from sportsmen to spend on non-hunting activities anyway. Wow! That was cynical , wasn't it? Well, I just read my new KY Afield today & I am in a VERY cynical mood. I'll try to get over it soon & be of some value to the forum:)Go see my new post on the Forum:(

Ralph

[Xtreme]

Folks, Ralph has made a motion that we work toward a youth /recyclable turkey permit. Before we accept his most respectable as well as honorable motion I would like to see a little more detail in what we would like to propose.

Don't get me wrong Ralph and GSP...I'm with you a 100%...I just would like to see a motion that has guidelines followed by a second. At preseent there appears to be a little bit of "grey area".

You two get together and we will get the ball rolling[;)]

[Ralph]

I don't know where "recycleable" fits in here but I would move that we ask for a youth turkey tag that is good for either turkey gun season for the year issued, until the hunter is successful. Gosh, that sounds awful straight & to the point, but I think that is it. It leaves F&W options to work with. If some young fella is really an accomplished turkey hunter he has the option to purchase an adult tag the same as deer hunters do.

Ralph

[GSP]

Ralph, Again I think it's a great idea. I assumed that it was something KBA was doing and I didn't want to step on any toes.

How about proposing a $15 YEARLY turkey tag good for 1 turkey? This falls in line with the youth deer tag.

I'm going to be leaving tomorrow for a few days of hunting with my daughter. I want to help in anyway I can on this. Keep kicking around your thoughts, we can make it happen.
Good hunting to all,
Rick - GSP

[Multidigits]

Just an idea, but why not have a Youth Sportsman's license at a cheap price. Say almost free or at least half.

The future is with these kids and we need as many as possible. Let's not turn any out because of the price of a license.

I also like the Lifetime license deals that other states have but I know Roy don't like it, so there you go.

[Birdman]

Two years ago Mike Caudill and his son wrote a resoluation two reduce youth license to $5.00. this past with the league and was presented to the commission and was shot down. The reason being it would cost the department a lose of income. Not looking at the increase of young hunters that may take advanage of a $5.00 license.

[Xtreme]

I believe we have a motion and a second for implementing a "youth" turkey tag good for one turkey for a full year.

At this time we will move to the voteing booth on this.

[GSP]

Ralph,
Does the motion fit into what you were thinking about the youth turkey tags?

[Birdman]

Boys I hate I missed the vote but hope everything works out.

[Multidigits]

Birdman-It ain't over yet, go vote!

[Ralph]

Well, I saw Boss Gobbler's comment about wishing he was a kid to get 6 turkey tags for $15 & I hope no one else thinks that is the proposal. The proposal was that the tag be good until a turkey is taken for that year. Another tag would then be necessary if more hunting was wanted. That's how the youth deer tag is set up & I don't see why there is a difference. Just my opinion.

Ralph

[Xtreme]

I don't think anyone took it that way Ralph. They know it's buy and good till filled then go buy again.

[Ralph]

Good enough:)

Ralph

[GSP]

Ralph, I need some help. I have started the wheels rolling on a LKS resolution. What do you think would be the best youth tag???

[Multidigits]

POSTED by MR>BOWHUNTER in the voting booth.


Why? I don't understand where this is coming from. It's not like it's the kids who pay for the license anyways. Do you think it will get more kids into the woods because it's only a one price fee for the whole year? My son hunts spring turkey and fall archery turkey and I paid the $35 for it as well as the $35 for me and the wife. Hunting is expensive, we spend $225 for the licenses for the three of us every year. So I can save $20. What's $20? Let's do something good, make the license fees more reasonable period. Why do I have to by a hunting license, a deer permit, a bonus deer permit, a spring turkey tag, fall archery tag for turkey and a fall firearms tag for turkey for a total of $102.50? I hate to keep referring to another state but its something I'm familiar with. PA has more deer and turkey, NOT BETTER QUALITY, just more. For $42, I get my hunting license which allows me to take one antlered deer, 1 spring gobbler and 1 fall turkey either sex, 1 antlerless deer and all the small game I want.

So again, why do we worry about $35 for youth turkey. Why not reduce our cost altogether which will also reduce the youth at the same time?

Kenny

[Ralph]

GSP, as I suggested before, the youth tag would be a reduced-price tag that is good until one turkey is taken by legal means, just as the deer permit is. Then the youth hunter would have the option to purchase another youth tag if he wishes. He already has the option of buying a full-price tag anyway at the get-go. Also, as Mr. Bowhunter has mentioned elsewhere on this site, this tag business has gotten way out of hand. The whole pricing system needs to be re-structured, but that is another story for another time. But the turkey tags are REALLY getting out of control.

Ralph

[Multidigits]

In my opinion, and I've raised two boys who have hunted with me since age 5 on one and 7 on the other, I don't think the Dept. needs to keep anyone from being able to take a kid hunting. By the time an adult spends money on all the other things you need for a child to hunt, it can get pretty costly. I say make these license and tags cheaper than that. At $15, if you take him in the spring and in the fall, you could end up spending more than the cost of an adult license if he was to get to liking it and tag out.

I say anyone under age 16 should get it for $15 but the limit should be the same as an adult on that tag.

[Xtreme]

Kenny [Mr. Bowhunter] do you think hunting is cheaper in PA overall because more hunters are paying into the pot or better management of money. What are your thoughts on this.

[Multidigits]

Most States tend to stck it to the Non-residents more than Kentucky does and this tends to make the resident licenses cheaper. I don't see anything in Kentucky getting cheaper, in fact, I'd say soon we'll see another increase.

[grouseguy]

No doubt you are right, Multi. However, contrary to what will be coming out of Frankfort, the KDFWR budget difficulties come from the expense side and not the revenue side. Just look at salary expense allocated to the individual WMA's for your answer. Way too much administrative expense (Too many chiefs and not enough indians) that gets buried in small budget amounts assigned to each WMA and thereby overlooked. You have to dig in the budgets a little, but the corruption and politically motivated expenses are there.

[KYhunter]

Is Pa cheeper because the state legislature carries some of the burden with taxes? Remember we KYhunters carry the load ourselves(along with PR monies).

[Ralph]

Grouseguy, I was gonna start a thread on your comment. At H-H there is ONE guy working right now. ONE for the entire 6000 acres. The other full-time worker got sick & retired. He had a girl doing tractor work but she is seasonal & was laid-off last week, I think she said. Maybe the end of Oct. but she will be gone until next summer. The Area Foreman (he did not refer to himself as Area Manager) said he didn't know if he was going to get a replacement for the retiree or not. Where could a fella get detailed info concerning F&W budget expenses & allocations? Boy, would I like to see that posted on here:):) !! One guy for 6000 acres to take care of EVERYTHING! West KY had 5 guys working the last time we were down there. H-H has one. Very strange. H-H certainly is utilized more.

Ralph

[grouseguy]

Ralph, Birdman had a few budgets for various WMA's that he posted a couple of months ago. What you're seeing as far as understaffed WMA's is not uncommon. Most don't have enough full time staff assigned to them to properly manage the area, but the funny thing is that the WMA's that we've seen the budgets on have around $100,000.00 each of salary budgeted (and spent).

I spent many years in corporate America and have seen how these budget figures occur. My guess is Frankfort has assigned a portion of each administrative person's salary, who could possibly do any work in connection with WMAs, to their individual budgets. That way you can "hide" an incredible amount of overhead by spreading it out over many dozen smaller budgets and it will never be questioned. The problem is, just like you have discovered, when you assign all of the "back room people's" salaries to the individual WMA's there is precious little money left to pay the folks who actually do the work of maintaining and managing the WMA. So when you question the Dept about the work being done on your favorite WMA, you get a response like "we have budgeted $100K in salaries to that WMA", when in reality maybe $80K was spent on salaries for people who sit behind a desk in Frankfort and have never set foot on that particular WMA.

[Multidigits]

I'd like to see the Dept. get out of law enforcement. A few years ago, we merged those guys with the water patrol, simply because of the Dept. of Tourism deal. We don't get the fine money or license money back on that aspect. Law Enforcement personel should fall under the Ky. State Police and be paid from their budget and out of the General Fund. Law enforcement helps protect many people that don't buy a hunting license. We shouldn't have this expense as part of the budget.

I don't know what they pay the WMA managers, but would hope it's a decent amount. Surely they ought to be making $50,000 a year or so. Add that to several part time employees and it's not hard to see a total of $100,000 for salaries. To be honest, more information would be needed before you could make a judgement. I imagine that would be hard to get.

[Birdman]

Multi your way off base. Try $26,000.00 to the low 30's. And that includes benefits, such as FICA, Retirement, Health InsuranceUniforms, and Auto. Liability Insurance. On the low 30's your looking at $25,600.00.

[Multidigits]

You might be right...I don't know for sure. But most of those guys are long time employees. Paying the kind of money your talking about doesn't contribute to longevity. Poorly paid good people would likely move on. I guess some of them have free living expenses on the WMA????

In essence, KYDFW is a pretty good size corporation. We all see what corp. greed does and most of us have been effected by it in our 401ks and in other ways. If these guys are only making the kind of money your talking about, it's a mistake and a pure example of this type of greed.

[Birdman]

No one on Eastern Ky. WMA's live on the area that I know of. The figures came from Frankfort.

[Ralph]

At Clay, H-H & West KY WMA's they all have a house & live on the area. Don't know about any other areas as I haven't been to them yet. But I am going:) I can believe the $30,000 figure for yearly salary. Few years ago I would argue that number was too high. However, factor in the free rent, vehicle, etc. & it isn't too bad. Gotta go get ready for my OH hunt. Leaving Friday & gone for a week :) Hard. Very hard:):):)

Ralph