Flight 93 Families Ask Bush to OK Land Seizure for Memorial

[AteUp]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473404,00.html

Sunday, December 28, 2008
PHILADELPHIA — Relatives of those who died aboard United Airlines Flight 93 want the Bush Administration to seize the land needed for a memorial where the plane crashed in Shanksville, Pa., in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

The Families of Flight 93 sent a letter earlier this month asking President George W. Bush to empower the Secretary of the Interior to take the land in dispute from a homeowner who had been in negotiations with the National Parks Service, said Patrick White, vice president of the families' organization.

The group says ground must be broken early next year in time for a memorial to be build for the 10th anniversary of the crash in 2011.

Svonavec Inc. owns one of the last large chunks of land needed for the 2,200-acre memorial, including the area where the plane crashed Sept. 11, 2001. Svonavec's treasurer Mike Svonavec has said the park service has not done enough to negotiate a deal.

White said Svonavec has not been willing to negotiate, and called that unacceptable.

"We've certainly sought to do this within in the process, following protocol as much as we possibly can," White said Saturday. "It has gotten to the point where we fear we'll lose significant momentum.

"We have an administration that has been very supportive of this effort. We just wanted to make sure the president is aware of what the circumstances are. ... We just didn't want to get lost in the shuffle."

In October, the National Park Service said it would use an independent appraiser to determine the value of 275 acres of land needed for the memorial. The NPS also said it could use eminent domain to acquire the plot if all else fails.

Construction of a $58 million permanent memorial and national park is scheduled to begin in 2009.

White, whose cousin Louis Nacke II died on Flight 93, said the group would favor Bush giving the interior secretary or director of park services the power to take the necessary steps to acquire the land before the administration leaves office in January.

He said the families understand that the outgoing president has plenty to do in his final weeks in office. But White pledged that the group would carry its fight to the Obama Administration, if needed.

"I think the rest of the family members and I feel there is no point at which we will stop," White said. "Whatever it takes. As long as it takes. Whoever it takes. To do anything less would be doing a disservice to those that we love."

Flight 93 was en route from Newark, N.J., to San Francisco on Sept. 11, 2001, when it was diverted by hijackers. The official 9/11 Commission report said the hijackers crashed the plane as passengers tried to wrest control of the cockpit.

[drakeshooter]

If our Federal govt. would cut out about 2 or 3 thousand of these types of purchases per year, maybe I wouldn't be paying out so much of my salary in Federal income tax.:rolleyes:

[reivertom]

This is a worthy purchase if there ever was one. The ones I have a problem with are the ones like the gay bar in NYC that Bill Clinton made into a National Monument.:mad:

[AteUp]

If a plane crashed on my family farm and the govt wanted to seize it to make a memorial out of it, I think I'd be a little pissed. I've never understood memorials on the spot where people died anyway. Roadside memorials are the worst. Who wants to remember the spot where there loved one's head was ripped off or steering wheel went through their face in a car crash? I'd rather not memorialize where my loved one was in the most pain before they breathed their last breath. Go mourn in a cemetary. I think most of the people build those memorials for the attention to themselves anyway, not out of respect to the dead.

[RocketRider]

I am against eminent domain, period. If the owner wants to sell the property at a fair price that's one thing. But for the government to step in and seize land for whatever reason, that's just not right. Plain and simple.


RR~

[Duster]

2,200 acres seems a bit large to me. How much ground does the ground zero memorial in NYC take up. I could see 200 acres where the plane went down but over two thousand ????

[kycrat]

do i read that correctly, the man is offering to sell but they think it's too high and want the president to take it and pay what they declare the value to be! SWEET.
200+ acres? them boys are serious about that memorial. couldn't they just use our tax money for a smaller tract. then less of our money would be needed to maintain it. IMO

[KYBOY]

Im vehemently against land seizure..I honestly understand the familys point of veiw but I can also so see the land owners..If they want the property fine, get it the right way..

[trust me]

I understand the need for eminent domain; that in and of itself is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not eminent domain should be used to seize private property to build a monument. "No," says I. Monuments to the dead are not in the same class of "public good" as highways and national parks.

[AteUp]

I understand the need for eminent domain; that in and of itself is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not eminent domain should be used to seize private property to build a monument. "No," says I. Monuments to the dead are not in the same class of "public good" as highways and national parks.

Well said sir.

[NonTyp]

I understand the need for eminent domain; that in and of itself is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not eminent domain should be used to seize private property to build a monument. "No," says I. Monuments to the dead are not in the same class of "public good" as highways and national parks.

I agree with trust me. I don't want to sound cold to the families but there are a lot of more important things this country should be focused on than a memorial!

[reivertom]

You guys are right, I didn't read it good, 2200 acres is ridiculous for a monument , parking area and visitor center. 200 acres that includes the crash site would be more than enough.

[Tim T]

My question is how many people are going to go out of their way to rural Penn. to visit a memorial?

[headoftheholler]

I am against eminent domain, period. If the owner wants to sell the property at a fair price that's one thing. But for the government to step in and seize land for whatever reason, that's just not right. Plain and simple.


RR~
If not mistaken, eminent domain was used to create LBL and the Smokey Mtns Nat. Park, would you feel differently if the eminent domain was used for something other than a memorial?

[buckfever]

If not mistaken, eminent domain was used to create LBL and the Smokey Mtns Nat. Park, would you feel differently if the eminent domain was used for something other than a memorial?

I can't speak for Rocketrider, but eminent domain is a fundamental bedrock of American law (i.e. that the sovereign, not the individual holds ultimate title to the land) and is a necessary "evil" for any society.

Without it, landowners could basically shake down the government anytime the public needed land for an important public purpose. Virtually every public hospital, school, road, airport library, and park was acquired through the use of eminent domain. Without it, America's infrastructure would collapse, because the public goods would always be secondary to the lucky landowner's right to extort the highest bid fathomable.

The problem is that eminent domain has been expanded far beyond what was originally intended. The most recent proclamation by the Supreme Court (via David Souter per the Kelo case) deemed what is "necessary" to protect the public good as being whatever the politicians want it to be. In Kelo, Souter allowed local authorities to seize private land and sell it to a private developer with the intent of generating more tax revenue.

I agree with the others that while the idea of a 911 monument is nice and all, the unfortunate fact that a hijacked plane went down on your farm should not subject it to public seizure without your consent. Personally, I would have sold the land, but it just shows you why big gov't is bad. They plan unnecessary things like a huge 2000 acre memorial and spend a bunch of money designing it, and then scream foul when somebody doesn't share their view and doesn't want to sell.

It doesn't sound like this is a "family" farm operation. It looks more like this landowner (a corporation) is simply trying to extort extra money out of the gov't. He apparently is asking for $10 million for his land, which translates into about $36,000 per acre in an area that probably sells otherwise for $2000-$5000.

http://www.dailyamerican.com/articles/2007/06/05/news/news585.txt

If that's the case, I probably would boycott whatever this landowning company is selling, but I still don't think that the land should be subjected to public seizure.

[Scott7m]

I am against eminent domain, period. If the owner wants to sell the property at a fair price that's one thing. But for the government to step in and seize land for whatever reason, that's just not right. Plain and simple.


RR~

amen.................. it's not the landowners fault a plane crashed in his field..........

[treerat]

to me 2200 acres is just plain to much land,,,50 acres would be plenty for it with an access road,,,i think the government just wants to own as much land they can get there hands on,,,probably if they get that much land for it,,they will use it government purposes,,,like a 2000 acre golf course and pool for the pres,,,

[buckfever]

amen.................. it's not the landowners fault a plane crashed in his field..........

Would your opinion change if the landowner wanted to profit over the fact that a plane went down in his field?

It appears that the bargaining process broke down, b/c the Svomenac Corporation is insisting that the land be appraised at the value that it would have had if they erected their own "private memorial" instead of its pre-911 value as dairy farmland.

http://www.dailyamerican.com/articles/2008/07/15/news/news/news279.txt

IMO, the landowners are trying to use the unfortunate events of 911 to line their own pockets. I hope the park service builds the memorial right around 'em, with an extremely high fence and lots of signs explaining how these other folks wouldn't sell their property b/c they wanted their own for profit "private memorial". Again, however, I'm still against using eminent domain for this purpose.

[Scott7m]

Would your opinion change if the landowner wanted to profit over the fact that a plane went down in his field?

It appears that the bargaining process broke down, b/c the Svomenac Corporation is insisting that the land be appraised at the value that it would have had if they erected their own "private memorial" instead of its pre-911 value as dairy farmland.

http://www.dailyamerican.com/articles/2008/07/15/news/news/news279.txt

IMO, the landowners are trying to use the unfortunate events of 911 to line their own pockets. I hope the park service builds the memorial right around 'em, with an extremely high fence and lots of signs explaining how these other folks wouldn't sell their property b/c they wanted their own for profit "private memorial". Again, however, I'm still against using eminent domain for this purpose.

that part is also true...... the govt shouldn't be able to seize it, and the landowners should be able to price gouge. at the same time however... they own the land, and if they do not want to sell. that would have to be there business. i didn't see how much they were asking but i'd think they do have the right to ask more than it's worth, because there not wanting to move, but if it's absurd then it's just as bad

[kycowboy]

I am against eminent domain, period. If the owner wants to sell the property at a fair price that's one thing. But for the government to step in and seize land for whatever reason, that's just not right. Plain and simple.


RR~
I would have to agree

[KY_Fried]

I've never understood memorials on the spot where people died anyway. Roadside memorials are the worst. Who wants to remember the spot where there loved one's head was ripped off or steering wheel went through their face in a car crash?

Quoted for truth. If they're going to build a memorial (and I think they should) it should at least be somewhere where people would actually see it. Not in the middle of a field somewhere in BFE.

[raktrakr]

Isnt there already a memorial there? Why spend $58 million on a memorial when the gov't needs that money for bailouts:rolleyes:. Dont get me wrong, its a nice gesture for those that perished, but $58 million? I dont think Frankforts Vietnam war memorial cost that much

[Double D Farms]

Let's not forget that the people on that plane were true American heroes. They did what they did knowing what the end results would be. They saved possibly thousands of lives in Washington D.C. by sacrificing their own. There is nothing we can do to repay them & their families enough for what they did. This is not just a memorial for their families, but also for a grateful nation. I have to wonder if the negative response to this would be so strong if it had been in 2002, when it was easy for everyone to be a patriot & fly Old Glory in the front yard. How soon we forget:(

[Haves]

I say put it in the nearest large city. Spend the money, but don't stick it out in the farm field.

I don't think people should put crosses all over the sides of roads either. You don't need to mark the spot where a person was ripped apart in a car wreck to remember them. Build a nice memorial that isn't in a ditch on HWY 42.

[Duster]

I wouldn't be against a memoral but over 2000 acres is a bit much IMO. A lot of fine young men and women have given their lives since 9-11 and I see no concern on if a memoral will be built for them.

[Auk1124]

I don't think people should put crosses all over the sides of roads either. You don't need to mark the spot where a person was ripped apart in a car wreck to remember them. Build a nice memorial that isn't in a ditch on HWY 42.

Agreed. They seem to be the trendy thing nowadays. There's one on 80 outside of Manchester that is an elaborate wooden cross with some sort of Army helmet on it, can't guess at the story behind that one but in general they can be a distraction when driving.

On topic, while this mega-complex memorial in PA is overly ambitious to the point of being ludicrous, I disagree with those who think eminent domain should never be allowed in any circumstance. There wouldn't hardly be a paved highway in the state without it, and for those that think property owners should get whatever amount they want for land being condemned, remember that the money for that land comes out of the taxpayers' wallets. Eminent domain is a necessary thing.

[trust me]

. There wouldn't hardly be a paved highway in the state without it, and for those that think property owners should get whatever amount they want for land being condemned, remember that the money for that land comes out of the taxpayers' wallets. Eminent domain is a necessary thing.

Eminent domain is a necessity, though offensive. About like taxes. We have to give up a little but we should be able to expect a return on our dollar.

58 million for 2200 acres? That seems way out of proportion to the cause at hand. Nobody here is questioning building a memorial to Flight 93; I'm just questioning the acreage and the plea to Bush to push through the process.

[ptbrauch]

As for the road side memorials, to paraphrase some comedian, why are there only crosses? Do Jews and Muslims not crash their cars?

As for the original topic, yeah, theres nothing that celebrates freedom and the American way more than having the gov't seize someone's property!

[AteUp]

Does anyone else secretly want to swerve off the road and run over those memorials? I swear one of these days I'm gonna take one out! A bicyclist got hgit and killed at Outer Loop and I65 here a couple months ago. I'm not kidding, they got a bicycle spray painted silver and chained to the guardrail there with some flowers and other crap as a memorial. I guess it ain't as bad as some of these ghetto memorials I've seen: Gang hankies, empty malt liquor bottles and rolling papers. Brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it.