contractor dilemma

[corndogggy]

Just wondering what others thought of this situation...

Had a neighbor who runs a very small time ghetto contracting operation help me with my roof. The agreement was that him and his son both were going to make $25 an hour. Basically he got $15, and his son got $10. They busted tail and did alot of roof work in a short amount of time.

This didn't last long though, and within a couple of days his son had stopped coming over, so it was mostly just him. Well, he needed a helper, so I had to pay another neighbor $10 an hour to come help. I thought he would take this into consideration, but then he gave me a bill for the full $25 an hour, by himself, so I was paying $35 an hour at that point.

He was getting a ton of work done, in conditions that I wouldn't want to be in, on the roof in very hot days with reflective foil all around, so I didn't say anything for that 2 days.

That other guy couldn't come over anymore, and he still needed help, so he recruited his wife, who did actually work alot. They got the roof finished, but then they moved inside to work on interior rafters.

This proved to be rather slow, basically the two of them weren't much faster than me by myself. I noticed that girl was standing around alot too. I started tracking their hours pretty accurately at this point, and taking note of what his help was doing.

So, this morning comes around, and they both showed up to work at 8 AM. They needed more 2x6's, so he offered to go to Lowe's to pick them up. I said that's fine, but if I'm paying two people to work, I want somebody to stay here and work on my bathroom. He said no, I don't work that way, I don't start my hours until I start working, so she'll just come with me. I said that's fine, but if she has any down time, I want her working on my bathroom. So they take off, and get back at 9 AM and start working. I had my wife pay attention to what was going on. Maybe once every 15 minutes she had to hold a board while he nailed it in, otherwise she was standing around, right beside the bathroom that she could have been putting tiles on. They didn't start the bathroom until about 1:30, and they only got 5 rows of tiles on one wall in the shower all day.

They leave at 2:30, then ask for a check for the last 3 days. Based on what he said, I calculated their time today from 9 to 2:30, 5.5 hours. He said no, that's not right, I worked 8 hours today. He talked my wife into paying him 2.5 hours more than what he was actually working. Even if he did count the 1 hour trip to Lowes, he was overpaid 1.5 hours.

So, I call him up, telling him that's not right. He gets all mad, telling me how much money he has saved me, etc. I told him to not come back for a few days because I needed to work by myself, and he got pretty ticked.

I guess I'm wondering, would you guys have ignored this, or done the same or worse? Where I come from, when you're paid by the hour, you don't round up 1.5-2.5 hours per day, go back on your word about when the clock starts, and definitely don't go back on an agreement for $25 for two people then expect the same pay for just one person, then STILL round up. Basically I just paid over $36 an hour for mostly just one person to work today and think I have a right to not ask him over anymore. He seems to think otherwise though.

I understand people have to make a living, but that was definitely not the agreement. The agreement was that him and his son combined got $25 an hour. It's apparently been evolving ever since then. I've got another guy begging me to work for $10 an hour and he's a good worker so I have to consider that.

[raven_over_easy]

What does it say in the contract?

[quackrstackr]

Most people that falsify their time record get fired.....

[corndogggy]

contract, what does it say in the contract?

We didn't have one, he was just in between jobs, working by the hour. That's why I can stop the employment at any time.

[KYBOY]

I dont blame you..Id get aggrevated too. I cant stand when a price is agreed on then someone tries to "re-negotiate" afterwords.:mad:

[KYHUNTER14]

I would stop employment right now and take it as a lesson learned. "Ghetto contractors" get the reputation as "ghetto contractors" for a reason.

[quackrstackr]

I worked at your house a couple of hours today. You just didn't see me.

The bill will be in the mail. :D

[raven_over_easy]

I dont blame you..Id get aggrevated too. I cant stand when a price is agreed on then someone tries to "re-negotiate" afterwords.:mad:

Learned my lesson on that a couple times. Now when I need work done I Hire by the job and pay by the job. I supply materials they work. When the job is done they get paid. Much simpler that way and you have less standing arround and more work getting done.

[corndogggy]

Learned my lesson on that a couple times. Now when I need work done I Hire by the job and pay by the job. I supply materials they work. When the job is done they get paid. Much simpler that way and you have less standing arround and more work getting done.

Only problem was that most of the guys who looked at my job didn't even want to bid on it. The only bid I got that made sense was for $4,000. I thought that sounded great, but he left a bunch of stuff off, that was only for leaving my current shingles on, raising the pitch on my upper gable roof, and covering with shingles. He just kept adding stuff on, did that several times. Went to $4,700 with metal. Went to $5,200 with insulation. $5,500 if I wanted my dormer to match the other one. etc., etc., etc.

When it was all said and done with, he wanted $7,500 for the job and that didn't include $1,000 for taking off my shingles, would have been $8,500 total. I just did it for $2,800 with better specs than his. I did do alot of it myself.

So yeah, he did save me money, but they're starting to slack off, and it still wasn't the agreement. He got paid $63 too much just for today. So, that's why it's kind of a dilemma. I guess he thinks that if you look at the big picture, I should overlook all this rounding up and other changes, but I just don't agree.

[carpenterguy]

Learned my lesson on that a couple times. Now when I need work done I Hire by the job and pay by the job. I supply materials they work. When the job is done they get paid. Much simpler that way and you have less standing arround and more work getting done.

Best advice ever! That way the guy has to get the work done or he goes in the hole! This is the same as cost plus to me... I want my price in writing so i know exactly what i'm paying in advance! Thats the way i conduct business!

[raktrakr]

Put his arse on the road and hire the one begging for the job. These kind of people need to learn to quit stepping on someone every chance they get. Him saving you money doesnt guarantee him a bonus either

[daking]

So let me get this straight. You got your roof done for about half of the best estimate and used better practices and materials. You did some of the work yourself. If you did 1/4 of the work, then you still got your roof done for 3/4 of the original price of $5500. That means (accounting for your labor at 1/4 of the entire job or 2/3 of what your pal did), you saved about $1400 on the deal. And you're complaining about $63? Hell we all spill that much on an average day. Is your complaint with his accounting system or the total value you got for the money you spent?

[deadaim]

So let me get this straight. You got your roof done for about half of the best estimate and used better practices and materials. You did some of the work yourself. If you did 1/4 of the work, then you still got your roof done for 3/4 of the original price of $5500. That means (accounting for your labor at 1/4 of the entire job or 2/3 of what your pal did), you saved about $1400 on the deal. And you're complaining about $63? Hell we all spill that much on an average day. Is your complaint with his accounting system or the total value you got for the money you spent?

And also he is an out of work neighbor correct ? Help a brother out:D

[corndogggy]

Is your complaint with his accounting system or the total value you got for the money you spent?

My complaint?

1. He brought animals over to my house today, which my dog promptly just about ate, then his kids tried to save a kitten from my dog, which could have been VERY ugly. He continues to bring his dog over, which gets his ass kicked by my dog nearly every day, but I still don't like it, it is a liability.

2. His son, which was part of the original agreement, has only worked 1 day out of the 10 or so that he has been over.

3. His wife, which I am paying by the hour, outright refused to do the easy job I wanted her to do.

4. He went back on his promise to start the clock when he actually starts working.

5. Even considering #4 and paying him for the extra hour, working 8 to 2:30 is NOT 8 hours.

6. He chewed me out over work I did to replace the rafters in one room, saying it was substandard work, yet a more expensive contractor just came over and literally could not tell the difference between the room I did in 3 hours and the room he did in 5. It had the same flaws.

7. He tore up my deck, using my wife's law office entrance as a shave horse, then when called on it, he replaced it with a board that wasn't cut right and with big nails that didn't match the rest of the deck at all.


It just all adds up, he just keeps getting sloppier, keeps rounding up more and more. Overbilling me today was just the last straw.

[RutNBuck]

any Amish close by?
they seem to do good work
the only thing i have heard in a "some what bad way" is they bring the entire family (all boys) and you gotta pay em all unless you create a contract with a final total on it

[yote hunter]

if the guy did good work $35 an hour it is a steal. consider your self lucky to get him.if he did lousy work remember you get what you pay for.

[drakeshooter]

if the guy did good work $35 an hour it is a steal. consider your self lucky to get him.if he did lousy work remember you get what you pay for.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Kinda like a tatoo.:D

[barney]

I would say, just get down on your knees tonight, and thank God one of them didn't fall from the roof, or "hurt their back" during the process.;)

And the #1 lesson I have learned in life is............YOU CAN"T MAKE A SILK PURSE, FROM A SOWS EAR.....NEVER, EVER, EVER! Just lick your wounds, and be thankfull.

[corndogggy]

if the guy did good work $35 an hour it is a steal.

Plenty of other dudes around here are willing to bust their ass for $10 an hour. I've got one upstairs installing insulation right now. I'm not going to pay $35 an hour for everything. Skilled labor, sure. Stuff that a computer programmer can do just as well and just as fast? Yeah right. I don't make that, so why should he? Seriously, that's a salary of nearly $73K a year based on a 40 hour work week. If I don't know what I am doing, and can do it just as well and just as fast without the drama and don't make that myself, that is hardly "a steal", that's just being stupid. If he was that good and was that booked up and that kind of money was "a steal", he wouldn't be living in a rented run down trailer.

[R Littleton]

I was a contractor for almost 20 years. When I bid on a job I bid it from start to finish with everything included. I pay my worker's $12 a hour and I get $24 an hour, but my deal is if you dont like the job that we do then you dont have to pay us. I can say we have always been payed and alot of time's with a bonus.

[corndogggy]

I was a contractor for almost 20 years. When I bid on a job I bid it from start to finish with everything included. I pay my worker's $12 a hour and I get $24 an hour, but my deal is if you dont like the job that we do then you dont have to pay us. I can say we have always been payed and alot of time's with a bonus.

I seriously doubt you would have stripped all the shingles off of a big roof, raised the pitch, insulated it, covered it in foil backed double-bubble wrap, install a new metal roof, use premium ridge vents, etc., all for $2,800 including materials. That's why I went this route.

[CUZZIN]

Seem's to me you need to quit cutting corners and pay someone that is respectable,you get what you pay for in this life.

[R Littleton]

I seriously doubt you would have stripped all the shingles off of a big roof, raised the pitch, insulated it, covered it in foil backed double-bubble wrap, install a new metal roof, use premium ridge vents, etc., all for $2,800 including materials. That's why I went this route.



You are right, I would not have done all of this for $2800. Depending on the size of the roof you are talking about, and how bad it is cut up with valley's and ridge's is how I price a job like your's. Now dont take me wrong, I dont know you at all, but from reading all your post's on this forum over the last year I feel like you are a good guy, but like alot of people have said on here. You get what you pay for. In no way do I disagree with you about what you have said on here but if you want something done right you need to get the right person to do the job. Just my 2 cent's.

[corndogggy]

Well, the thing is, he did a good job, up until very recently. Then he got canned once he got both sloppy and greedy. He was already finished with the major stuff anyway, my roof is done. I just felt guilty for canning him at the time, I don't anymore though. I had an electrical guy over tonight who worked for free since I knew him, and got another guy working like crazy for $10 an hour. It's all good. I'm still not going to call anybody who is "respectable"... that usually means "costs too much". I have no problem finishing the house by myself and this other guy. I have to hang drywall on the ceilings in 5 rooms, relocate some lights, paint, install hardwood flooring, trim, and I'm done. It'll only take the rest of the year. :D

[R Littleton]

Well, the thing is, he did a good job, up until very recently. Then he got canned once he got both sloppy and greedy. He was already finished with the major stuff anyway, my roof is done. I just felt guilty for canning him at the time, I don't anymore though. I had an electrical guy over tonight who worked for free since I knew him, and got another guy working like crazy for $10 an hour. It's all good. I'm still not going to call anybody who is "respectable"... that usually means "costs too much". I have no problem finishing the house by myself and this other guy. I have to hang drywall on the ceilings in 5 rooms, relocate some lights, paint, install hardwood flooring, trim, and I'm done. It'll only take the rest of the year. :D


Keep your head up I am sure you will do fine, and if you were a little closer to me I cant do alot anymore but I would be right there with you helping out. God bless and good luck.

[corndogggy]

like alot of people have said on here. You get what you pay for. In no way do I disagree with you about what you have said on here but if you want something done right you need to get the right person to do the job. Just my 2 cent's.

The quality of the major work wasn't really ever in question. The speed definitely wasn't. He got sloppy the last day or two, but crap, I'll just move on to the next dude who is willing to bust ass for a week. Yeah I took an entire week off from work to do it myself. The big problems started when I went back to work and wasn't supervising. Thought I could trust him, but I was proved wrong.

But yeah, like I said, my roof is completely done. I saved about $4,700 and have no regrets. There's no way it would have been built better by anybody else, especially not $4,700 worth of better. Biggest thing I did to save money was to buy everything myself with 20% off coupons then did the easy work myself. I worked from 7 AM to midnight for a week.

Metal roofing on a flat pitch is just too easy to pay somebody big bucks to do it.