Call to Arms for Small Game Hunters

[grouseguy]

Guys,

Once again in the KDFWR committee meetings yesterday, another attempt is being formed to expand the late muzzleloader season to 9 days, which will, if effect, take away another weekend from the small game hunter using dogs, as I personally will not take my dogs afield, especially in the wooded hills of eastern KY, during firearms deer seasons.

Every year we lose additional days afield to expanded gun deer seasons. Last year we lost the weekend after X-mas to a youth deer season that <b>NO ONE </b>requested or supported. Now this year they're asking for another weekend for extended muzzleloader season, that as far as I can tell, again <b>NO ONE </b>has requested. We simply have to change the mind set in Frankfort that <b>KILLING MORE DEER </b>is necessary.

Let's start the discussion here about how we will oppose this season. I would also like to invite all of you to visit the Cyber-Hunters Public Forum below and consider joining, as we will be mounting a organized opposition to this proposal and will be present at the March Commission meeting to state our case directly to the KDFWR and Commission.



"It's time for the commissioners to value their relationship with the sportsmen, more than their relationship with the governor." Address of outgoing President, Rolly Beers, to the LKS convention, June 14, 2003

[CPA Hunter]

I for one think we have enough days to gun hunt. I gun hunt, but enough is enough. Small game hunters are getting squeezed hard and it is not right. We often forget where we started. To go out with dogs during a gun weekend is not nearly as relaxing. Who is over that next hill that might not like dogs around while they hunt and happen to have a gun in hand.

Most people that have been around this site for 4 or 5 years no I am not one to complain about the KDFWR, but they need to take some cosideration of small game hunters and if they plan to take away half of our season they need to either extend it later or start it earlier (later prefered by most rabbit hunters).

[CPA Hunter]

On another note, but the same topic. I enjoy taking my daughter (6 years old) on rabbit hunts with our beagles. BUT, due to all the gun weekend limitation and her school there was one a single weekend day where the weather cooperated and the orange army was not out. Today would be a great day to put a rabbit in her sack, but we can’t go. One day a year, yea that will make a hunter out of her.

The weather often rules out Jan for taking young kids small game hunting with dogs—that hurts.

[nubby]

hey i agree totally with grouseguy on this. between the early and late
muzzleloader and modern firearms season should be plenty enough
time to put some meat in the freezer. if the people who are
pushing this idea need more time to harvest an animal, then
let them pick up a bow--how long do they have now? mid-sept. thru
mid jan. if they can't do it then maybe they should get a
bird dog so at least they could have a good time while they are
out not bagging any game. if the dept. thinks we have too
many deer, put out 2 buck tags. imagine the delight in the trophy
hunters eyes. anyway i got out several times last weekend , 0 kills
haif a dozen flushes, couple of points, tired legs, and a
great time.

[Birdman]

Everyone that frequents this site knows my interest lies with small game hunting. I truly understand Rob's and Big's point on wanting the extra weekend. While at the same time nubby's feeling about JUST BEING OUT AND HAVING A GREAT TIME. I understand that muzzle loader hunting isn't nearly as dangerest as modern gun. I would probably hunt the weekend in question by myself or with a nother seasoned grouse hunter (if I could find one that would hunt). But no way would I run beagles or take a kid hunting with me. I have the privilege of working with children on a daily bases. We set up hunts through out the year for children and their parents. I know NO ONE that participates in these programs that would let or take their children small game hunting with either modern gun or muzzle loader season going on. Nor would I even ask a parent to do so.

The number of species we have to hunt is a great problem to have. While at the same time, time and time again not only on this site but during committee and commission meetings we've pushed for our youth to be directly involved in the out doors. To me we're saying one thing and doing the opposite.

We've made some progress concerning habitat work not only for small game but deer and turkey also. If we take the children out of the equation, what have we been working for. It's time to look in the minor and ask yourself what are we busting our ass for.

[Beagleboy]

I agree with u all to take away our season and give it to a season that their animals are starting to declin is just stupid

[CPA Hunter]

What is your point adam? Can’t tell where you stand.

Someone tell me, how many Saturdays (the day my daughter is not in school or church) before the end of December that I can take her out with her beagles rabbit hunting?? Count em--WHEN, there are no deer hunters with rifles, ML or turkey hunters with shotguns. Maybe ONE OR TWO freakin days and that is if the weather is good.

BY JANUARY IT IS usually TOO cold for a 7 year old.

The season is over at the end of Jan -- getting hard on a dog man.

[Multidigits]

I think Adam's going thru menopause or something????

[grouseguy]

That's Bullshit adam, and you know it!!!

If we were only talking about one weekend, period, then we likely wouldn't be having this debate. BUT, the facts are...2 years ago we lost 6 days (including one weekend) to expanded modern gun season, last year we lost the weekend after Xmas to a youth gun season (THAT NOBODY WANTED), and this year, if approved, we'll lose another weekend to expanded muzzleloader season (EVEN THOUGH WE <u>SUPPOSEDLY </u>MET PROJECTED DEER KILL #'S AND WE HAVE A DECLINING DEER HERD). By my count, that's 3 weekends lost in 3 years or <b>20% of available weekends</b> for small game hunting.

The KDFWR keeps telling us that they want to maintain the season structure for a few years to evaluate the trends, and then <b>THEY </b>propose all of these wholesale changes that, quite frankly, are completely unnecessary and as far as I'm aware, no group has requested. Seems hypocritical to me and another example of Tom Bennet's "big picture" arguments, where the KDFWR has to take care of us, because the sportsmen simply lack the ability to have meaningful input into what is in our best interests.[V]

adam, I honestly don't care which you choose, but I do wish that you'd pick a side and stick with it.

[Valley Station]

That youngin's been sniffin' to much catnip.[8]

[Highbow]

Ok, guys, you all know that I'm primarly a bow hunter, I do not think we need this extra hunting days. The deer herd is on the decline, there are lots of firearm days already at prime rut too. It appears this is just another slap in the face of small game & birdhunters. I was almost ready to get me another bird dog pup but looks like F&W don't want to help protect the season so I guess that I will not get another dog for now.I'm still waiting on Fletcher to proceed with changes.

[Hunting_Medic]

Which hunting season do you thinks brings in more money to the state, deer or small game. And do you think this plays a part in how the state sets up seasons?

[grouseguy]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Hunting_Medic</i>
<br />Which hunting season do you thinks brings in more money to the state, deer or small game. And do you think this plays a part in how the state sets up seasons?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Currently, I don't doubt that deer bring in more revenue to the KDFWR than small game, but historically, it would be just the opposite. Remember, the KDFWR was around for over 40 years before there was a viable deer herd, and during that period small game and fishermen carried the whole load. In effect, your small game hunters underwrote the costs of the deer stocking program, so I don't think you want to go with a strictly economic argument. Also, in states where their small game programs are a priority, the #'s would be much different. I know I spend MUCH more small game hunting out of state in two weeks, than I do in KY in 3 months. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a program that would allow a lot of those $$$ to remain in KY?

Which is really my point...I don't see why we can't have both viable small and big game programs, instead of managing AGAINST each. I also deer hunt, and IMHO, the deer population is dropping, but we're still adding firearms days to the seasons. Even if I didn't small game hunt with dogs, I'd be against these changes as a deer hunter concerned about the resource.

Step back from the situation and ask yourself an honest question...Was your deer hunting better before the "doe eradication program" than it is today?

In effect, we're mismanaging BOTH resources...the deer herd is suffering from too much management (fixing things that aren't broke) and the small game program is non-existant.

[Birdman]

All you good old boys that deer and turkey hunt only, if you would, check your billfolds and see if there isn't a small game licenses in there. Now you may not use it but I'll bet there is one there. Now when this madness began years ago. Money from this license or at least a part was for habitat improvements and to restore species such as deer and turkey. At that time most small game seasons opened the week before Thanksgiving. And ran through Febuary. Also, and I stand to be corrected, money from tags such as deer and turkey were to pay for those programs along with habitat work. What the hell has happened?

[Hunting_Medic]

Even though I don't do a whole lot of small game hunting anymore, my son is now 9 and I hope to have him taking his share this year. I myself am such a huge deer hunter that I once quit a job because the boss would not let me off to go hunting. Like me, I believe most of us grew up chasing tree rats and cottontails, so I don't want small game hunters to be shut out. I could be wrong but this seems like a bird hunter issue rather than a small game issue. In 20 years of hunting, I have never been bird hunting, nor have I ever had any friends or family who has. I believe bird hunting has not caught on here as well as it has in other states. So the KDFWR has not made a point to expand that program as well as some hunters like. Is this fair, no. Is it a reality, I think so.

[CPA Hunter]

Good points Medic, but it also does affect rabbit hunters using beagles. I care deeply for my beagles and I do not like to run rabbits when there may be deer hunters with rifles or ML in hand or even turkey hunters. Some of those folks get really upset when a pack of beagles open up in full-cry after a cottontail while they sit on stand.

I’m not saying they might take a pot shot at a beagle when they feel their hunt was disturbed but you know it is not out of the question. Also, I do not like to take my young children out during those seasons.

There are 7 weekends after gun season opens before the end of 2004. With weather and all I might get lucky if I can take my daughter one time with her beagles before the real bad weather of January rolls in. L

[Nathan N.]

I love to deer hunt, but I like to hunt raccoon moreso than deer. I agree with you guys about small game hunters getting squeezed out. I've hunted alot around most parts of the state...my opinion is if you can't kill a deer with all the gun days you have now, a few extra days probably won't help.

Proud Member of Professional Kennel Club

[Birdman]

Medic, it's not just a BIRD thing. It's just so happens that the people that are posting are mainly bird hunters. I work with a rabbit hunting club that just formed last year. Their very up set about this matter. Why are they not posting? They don't use a computer. I was talking with the president Monday concerning this issue. He ask if I would talk with the people in charge, to stop this move on small game hunters. I gave him my word that I and others were doing everything possible to improve all hunting. But for some reason our dept. seen fit to remove days from the small game hunters. And where this will end, no one knows. That's the scary thing about this whole matter.

As for bird hunting taking off. Bird hunting especially in Eastern Ky. (grouse and quail) and in Western Ky. (quail) has had a tremendous following for years. Within the last 15 years the habitat and the number of birds have decreased therefore the number of hunters decreased. If habitat improves the number of hunters will increase as well.

[Bowcrazy]

I don't really care...guess I'll have to support my "small game brothers" on this one [:D]

[ribsplitter]

I think its time all the hunters stood up as a whole not divided against one another as deer ,rabbit ,quail or coon hunter . We all love the sport of hunting, and we can all see that the state is only concerned with money from deer, turkey and elk tags. If we would stand together as a whole it would be better for all involved in this battle. Seems to me this states management guru's are gettin above there raisin's..Forgetting where they came from . I bet there are damn few of us in here thats fathers or grandfathers hunted anything besides small game ..

[CPA Hunter]

darn good post ribsplitter!

[Hunting_Medic]

I am all for us standing up together and having a say in how our state hunting regs are set. But as long as we keep fighting among our selves over hunting days, the state will just keep on thinking we are not smart enough to have a say so. I wish there was an easy answer that was fair to all sides, but at one time or another we are all going to get our toes steped on.

[schuyler olt]

I doubt that two additional deer days will raise any significant dollars. But putting the neccesary effort into enhancing grouse hunting in eastern Kentucky.....the potential is almost without limit.

Rabbit hunters are almost becoming dinosauers. The kids learn from us, and as a whole we are becoming more and more trophy oriented. Big antlers, big beard, big striper, big bass. The kids are becoming trophy oriented, too. Sadly, many of them are missing what brought us to this lifestyle--a day walking afield with relatives, being able to talk the whole time, learning how to care for and work an animal, learning how to REALLY manage a loaded firearm, and eating some awfully good vittles at Grandma's table.

Many of us strayed from small game hunting when the populations went to heck. The KDFWR needs to emphasize this area equally if not more than the "trohy" species.

I'm an avid turkey hunter. If I get po'ed because a father and son and their beagle screwed up my setup, then I'm nothing but a selfish SOB that should be flogged.

[Birdman]

For all that are not members of Cyber Hunters I want to invite you to join. This group can help with issue.

[kdfwr907]

A little good news for small game hunters..

A few months ago, the Commisionner, and Jon Gassett came to Clay County to meet w/Senator Albert Robinson, first to talk about the potential for Quail Restoration, and then to meet with about 20 landowners about Small Game / Quail Restoration.

They are in the process of gearing up for a dedicated effort to establish small game habitat using reclaimed strip mines.

This is a pilot program starting in Eastern KY, and if it shows potential will be expanded.

Just a reminder, the plight of the Small Game hunter is not forgotten.

Comparing the programs of the Dept. with the questions I am asked, and the hunters I have checked, the Dept. seems to be on track.

I agree, that many hunters, myself inclued grew up small game hunting, and personally I prefer small game hunting.

But, I see far more hunters during Deer & Turkey hunting seasons, and I have some of the best squirrel hunting terrain in the Boone NF.
Also, I get very few calls about small game, but My phone rings at all hours for 2 weeks before each deer and turkey season.

Also, the hunters I do check during small game season, are usually scouting for Deer and/or Turkey while doing so.

I unfortunately beleive this is more of a change in society. Young sportsmen do not go out and hunt small game after school as I did, they are in Football, or Basketball, or any other thing you can imagine. Also, most hunters have to dedicate time to hunt, as they have to travel to hunting areas, and the available time is usually saved for the big game seasons.

[Birdman]

I would like to know more about this program 907. When, where, how. Where is the money coming from and so on.

The dept. has been working on Clay, Fleming, Yatesville, Green River, Pine Mountain, and Fish Trap, doing cuttings for small game. Is this the same program?

I truly appreciate the work being done. After hunting an area this weekend, that we cut 4 years ago, I have no doubt this type of improvements will help all game.

[kdfwr907]

I am not sure of the details, as the meetings were first to get interested Landowners at the same place at the same time, and the second meeting was for the Commisioner to meet with as many of the interested Landowners at the same time as possible, so they could get on the same page, and get contact information for the future.

The project is a pilot program that will be based in Clay County, and will be funded from outside funds. As I understood it, it would from appropriations outside of the Dept. I am not sure exactly where from though.

The idea was to take the older reclaimed mines, that have been good small game land but are now overgrown, and return it to good habitat.

If this works, I think the idea is to add loggers first, and try to get mine reclamation to allow the planting of native grasses.

A large amount of this is up in the air, as current regulations do not allow native grasses to be planted for reclamation, and one for the better management practice, prescribed fire, is discontinued due to a lack of personal protection for the individuals actually performing the prescribed fire.

Whenever I hear more, I will put it on the message board.

[Dangermouse]

I think in other states that have a long gun season for deer allow small game hunters to hunt also . And because of the much longer season there is not as much pressure from deer hunters to cram their hunt into a couple of weeks of hunting . I was in South Carolina working and in 2 months I might have seen 2 deer hunters while I was there. The hunters I talked to seemed not to worry about getting their hunt in . But I dont know if that would work here .

Everywhere you go there you are

[Birdman]

I guess most of you know by now, if not we lost two more days of small game season in Dec. and picked up two more days of muzzle loader season.

[GW805]

I love to small game hunt and mainly because it's what I grew up doing and can do with all three of my boys. I am aware of the Dept's work on at least Grayson Lake WMA and I see very little that really benefits rabbit, quail or grouse. I used to do all the management work on that area ( circa 75-79) when the budget for the 8000 acres was a whopping $500. I do not see the benefit of warm season grasses, if they were so hot, how come we have more deer and turkey now than when these grasses were so widespread? I agree with my dad who farmed and was a CO and the 1st superintendent of Camp Webb. "A poor farmer is better for wildlife than anybody" Meaning leaving crops, not farming fence row to fence row. I think that F&W needs to do more food plotting than grasses on all the WMA's. It's just my personal opinion, but I've been there and done that.

An hour in the woods with my son's is worth a month in the house....

[Birdman]

GW, there's a lot of truth in what you say. Supposedly native grasses are for nesting areas. Habitat work that's taking place on six other WMA's are for grouse, quail, rabbit and woodcock. Their doing cuttings of Alder on Yatesville for woodcock. Fish Trap is grouse habitat, their cutting hardwoods. Pine Mountain their creating watering holes and cutting hardwoods. The other three areas I'm not sure what their cutting. Even though these sites are being cut for specific species, all wildlife will benefit. To my knowledge this is the first time a major habitat project has taken place on our WMA's in the East. We just hope it continues. Hopefully in the future larger areas will be cut. If your interested in getting involved, consider joining the Kentucky Grouse Hunters or Cyber Hunters. Both groups played a large roll in these cuttings taking place.

[Birdman]

Have those tractors started plowing? Is seed being sown? How much burning is going on? We start tomorrow.

[kybowhunter1963]

two days...not a big deal...and who is reporting that the deer herd is in "decline"????

[kybowhunter1963]

Really....the "doe eradication program" thing is getting really old and worn out.

[Birdman]

You've got to do, what you've got to do.[;)]

[cobbhunts]

I am not going to lie and say that I am a true small game hunter because i am not. I mainly hunt deer and have began hunting turkey. I will say this though I grew up on a farm with out the benefit of having a deer poulation. So when I was old enough to start hunting it was rabbit, squirel, and the occasional quail or dove. Looking back I have to say that those days were the best of my life. Every fall after school it was to the woods til dark. Learning this way taught me the basics of stalking,still hunting, and most importantly safety. I am not really gettimg to a point here except that i believe every child should begin and have the opportunity to hunt small game even if just a learning tool. Taking two more days away from the small game hunters and giving it to muzzleloaders is wrong. I agree with Nathan N. in that if you haven't taken a deer by the time late season muzzle loading rolls around then you are probably not going to get one anyway. Plus look at how long bow season is; get off of the couch and get a bow there are more opportunities for bowhunters anyway because of the vast # of wma's that allow bow hunting but not firearms.

[Birdman]

Great post

[Larry_Reed75]

This is my first year going big game hunting so I really am in the dark to a certain extent on the longer deer seasons. But even a new guy like me knows it's not right to squeeze the small game hunters the way we have been. Yeah deer need to be killed due to the danger of accidents involving the deer but why not just extend the use of rifles a little into the other seasons. It'll make it alot easier to bag a deer and the small game hunters won't feel the pinch either. I might be wrong here like I said I'm a new hunter, if you have a different spin on the topic let me know.

[ribsplitter]

Larry that is exactly what is happening they are extending the rifle seasons or muzzle loader seasons longer which in turn cuts into days that rabbit or bird hunter could have there dogs affield . No one minds hunting thru archery seasons but most people are a little reluctant to head out with there dogs during the time a gun season is open for danger of them or their dog being shot . Anyone who cant kill a deer in the time allotted is doing something besides hunting the days they are allowed now.I for one don my orange vest as does my dog and heads out amongst'em I figure before long thats the way it will have to be anyway .