I see it this way!........ am I wrong?

[barney]

There was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab, the prof noticed one young man, an exchange student, who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.




The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his


country's government and install a new communist regime.



In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked:


'Do you know how to catch wild pigs?' The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said that it was no joke.



'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You


continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat that free corn again. You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught.

Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.'



The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of


programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax cuts, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time.





One should always remember two truths: There is no such thing as a free lunch and you can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

I recieved this in an email a few days ago, and thought I would post it, as I actually know several farmers, who live very well off of free government money. Don't take me wrong, they work very hard to get it, although they never sit in a tractor seat, and their hands are as smooth as a babys bottom.

These guys are not the welfare bums that everyone talks about' no.....food stamps and a monthly check, ain't near enough for these guys........They got DRIVE!...............They want ALL of the money they can steal or cheat the gov. out of, yet they are "upstanding" guys?:rolleyes:

In my opinion.....This type of smooth talkin, size'n you up individual, no matter what his profession, is taking a toll on our country. I think gov. is way to big right now, and that just gives these crooks more access points to........ OUR MONEY! I say stop the hand outs, and let everyone work their way to the top, the old fashioned way!


A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.




-Thomas Jefferson

[Scott7m]

Great post Barney, your exactly right.....

[KYBOY]

I now know what your talking about. Ever since the govt started listing who gets their subsadies Ive seen a half dozen in my county that dont even live on a farm or own one thats been getting it. The one big producing farmer in our county only claims a very,very small ammount. I know that the beaver in two of his corn fields took more $ in corn than he claimed. From now on maybe I wont flinch so hard when a predator takes my laying hens :D :p ;)

[Al]

Ever since the govt started listing who gets their subsadies Ive seen a half dozen in my county that dont even live on a farm or own one thats been getting it.
KYBOY, could you post a link to that site?

[shot'm&hook'm]

This is one of the greatest posts I've seen on here! I have a neighbor doing exactly that. He has bought over 200 head of cattle and probably hasn't had to pay for maybe 50 of them. He has CRP ground out the bum. He used to grow tobbaco so he getting that money. And of coarse hes cashing in on that hay shortage last year. Hear I am with just 10 cows and the calves they raise on about 50 acres trying to make an extra dime.

[treerat]

so true...so true

[barney]

KYBOY, could you post a link to that site?
I will, http://farm.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=21000

Now bare in mind, this isn't all of the money these "upstanding" guys are getting their hands on. The phase I master tobacco settlement, has money allocated, for distribution in individual countys........by county commities, guess who heads these commities in my county, and every other neighboring county. You guessed it!......... The suit and tie farmers I mentioned earlier, and they always appropreate money for their needs, while denieing the most of the smaller farmers funding.

I was, at one time close enough to the inside, to know how it worked. They would have "closed door" meetings, to figure out how to split the money up. Yes, that was illegal to do, the public is supposed to be notified..........but they would call it a special meeting, and to keep it legal would just post a flyer on the door anouncing the meeting, to the public.........like anyone who might be interested, would see it?:rolleyes:

I for one would like to see these guys have to pay all the money they have been stealing.......BACK!

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/TobaccoEcon/publications/kysettlefund.pdf

[redneckbuck]

No Farmers, No Food!!!

[drakeshooter]

Question: "Why do farmers' hats have curved bills?"

Answer: "From sticking their heads in the mailbox and looking for a government check."

[Al]

$14,431,380 paid out to lincoln co farmers last yr.
One guy got $35,196 for corn.
Unbelievable!!!!!!

[KYBOY]

thanks for posting that link barney. I just got back to checking this post.

[turkeytalker]

Looks like more handouts on the way. All in the name of socialism, i mean conservation.

[DearDoctor]

Question: "Why do farmers' hats have curved bills?"

Answer: "From sticking their heads in the mailbox and looking for a government check."


My family members who allow me to hunt on their farm are hard working people. They have famed all of their lives and do not live comfortably. I do not know if they get government money, but I really don't care. They work there A$$E$ off and don't have much to show for it. If it wasn't for them and people like them I wouldn't have enjoyed the meal I had tonight for dinner!

[barney]

My family members who allow me to hunt on their farm are hard working people. They have famed all of their lives and do not live comfortably. I do not know if they get government money, but I really don't care. They work there A$$E$ off and don't have much to show for it.If it wasn't for them and people like them I wouldn't have enjoyed the meal I had tonight for dinner!
Well, you answered your own question..........they are not in the "farmer welfare click"! And if this subsidy money is cut out, they will still work their A$$E$ off, but.......they will have somthing to show for it!

[mwezell]

barney, if you are a farmer, then preach on! If not, may I suggest that you or anyone else that cares to try it, go and give farming with the big boys a try.(or small ones either) It certainly is not for everyone. In a good year you make money. In a bad year you lose it by the bucket. I have said it before, and I'll say it again...all a farmer wants to do is make an honest living doing what he loves. But, when programs are offered to farmers that pay them for soil conservation or wildlife habitat improvement, or whatever..in most cases..it'd be just plain stupid to turn it down. Like turning down a big raise an employer gives because he got a big tax break from our gov't. American farmers are still the most productive in the World, and we need them more than they need us. Especially in times like we are facing now. JMHO----Mike

[barney]

barney, if you are a farmer, then preach on! If not, may I suggest that you or anyone else that cares to try it, go and give farming with the big boys a try.(or small ones either) It certainly is not for everyone. In a good year you make money. In a bad year you lose it by the bucket. I have said it before, and I'll say it again...all a farmer wants to do is make an honest living doing what he loves. But, when programs are offered to farmers that pay them for soil conservation or wildlife habitat improvement, or whatever..in most cases..it'd be just plain stupid to turn it down. Like turning down a big raise an employer gives because he got a big tax break from our gov't. American farmers are still the most productive in the World, and we need them more than they need us. Especially in times like we are facing now. JMHO----Mike
Mike, I am a farmer, and one who loves the lifestyle and would love to make a living at it.......and I was, untill this welfare, and tobacco buyout money came along a few years ago! And with it came the crooks, who are abusing it, and forcing me and many more out.

I am not alone! I was one of the first in this comunity to catch on, but now I have a following around here, and we are growing in numbers, and all realize the problems started with the free money, that the working farmer don't get. The deck has been stacked against us.

There is no money "offered" to us, its gobbled up, as soon as it comes down the pike, by the "claim to be farmers", who sit on these county commities, and dish it to themselves, and their friends. It is then used against us, to force us out, so they can have it all in the future. The sad part is, these guys ain't farmers.......not even close,they are free loaders, abusing the system. And one day, when all of the true farmers are forced out by these "oppertune vultures", our nation is going to starve!

[turkeytalker]

But, when programs are offered to farmers that pay them for soil conservation or wildlife habitat improvement, or whatever..in most cases..it'd be just plain stupid to turn it down. Like turning down a big raise an employer gives because he got a big tax break from our gov't.Mike


Mike tell me your not comparing a tax break and farm subsidies. You know the difference.


Logan County "farmers" recieved $88,003,000 from 1995-2006 :eek:.
Look at those farmers, hard times ehh?

[drakeshooter]

My family members who allow me to hunt on their farm are hard working people. They have famed all of their lives and do not live comfortably. I do not know if they get government money, but I really don't care. They work there A$$E$ off and don't have much to show for it. If it wasn't for them and people like them I wouldn't have enjoyed the meal I had tonight for dinner!

Lighten up a little. I grew up farming and come from a farming family, so I know that doesn't apply to all farmers. That old joke used to peeve off my grandpa like no other.

[Rabbit Runner]

Mike, I am a farmer, and one who loves the lifestyle and would love to make a living at it.......and I was, untill this welfare, and tobacco buyout money came along a few years ago! And with it came the crooks, who are abusing it, and forcing me and many more out.

I am not alone! I was one of the first in this comunity to catch on, but now I have a following around here, and we are growing in numbers, and all realize the problems started with the free money, that the working farmer don't get. The deck has been stacked against us.

There is no money "offered" to us, its gobbled up, as soon as it comes down the pike, by the "claim to be farmers", who sit on these county commities, and dish it to themselves, and their friends. It is then used against us, to force us out, so they can have it all in the future. The sad part is, these guys ain't farmers.......not even close,they are free loaders, abusing the system. And one day, when all of the true farmers are forced out by these "oppertune vultures", our nation is going to starve!
You are right to an extent i think...but I dont see how the tobacco buyout has anything to do with it. The only people getting that money had direct dealings with growing tobacco. Either they were the owners of the quota or they were the growers.

[DearDoctor]

Lighten up a little. I grew up farming and come from a farming family, so I know that doesn't apply to all farmers. That old joke used to peeve off my grandpa like no other.

Glad to see you weren't talking about all farmers.

[ril7572]

Logan County "farmers" recieved $88,003,000 from 1995-2006 :eek:.
Look at those farmers, hard times ehh?


Turkeytalker, Do you know why payments to farmers were so high in these years???

[barney]

You are right to an extent i think...but I dont see how the tobacco buyout has anything to do with it. The only people getting that money had direct dealings with growing tobacco. Either they were the owners of the quota or they were the growers.
The money that the farmers got, was only part of the "master"settlement. The state got a HUGE chunk also. Part of this HUGE chunk of money, was given to the counties at a rate based on the counties dependence on tobacco, and to be distributed to farmers for various projects......by "county commities". I don't know how everyone elses money is used by their counties, but several counties around here distribute our portion of the funding, in the form of grants, that are over seen by these "commities". Who sits on these commities, you ask?.........you guessed it.....the biggest and richest, suit and tie "farmers" in the county. So guess who has recieved ALL of OUR portion of the money in this county, these so called "farmers", their families and their friends.......its been a free for all for these guys. They are sitting on a gold mine, and using it to their advantage, for everything imagineable, from fertilizer to new barns, "legally";) The small farmer can't compete with these guys, and have been folding because of it.........The very reason for this funding was to help the small, tobacco dependent farmer, transition to other agricultural "fields".......no pun intended! It has had a reverse effect for most......Here is a link, you must have over looked earlier in this thread, see how much your county got. I cant get the link to work on this page, but the same link is on the first page and it works there.
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/TobaccoEcon/pu...settlefund.pdf

[turkeytalker]

Turkeytalker, Do you know why payments to farmers were so high in these years???


nope i just post dumb*** comments.

I was simply pointing out how much people in Logan co. got in reply to mwezell's comment.

The three counties i'm familiar with i absolutely don't know why the top farmers got that much, and my uncle is among them so i'm just not picking on you or anyone else. I stated what i feel about it and you called me out in another thread thats all.

I don't see the government subsidizing non farmers who struggle to make a living,instead they tax the crap out of them to give welfare to people making up to 1.5 million a year, thats not a farmer, that's a millionaire.

So again, WHO'S THIS GOOD FOR?

[mwezell]

Turkeytalker, Do you know why payments to farmers were so high in these years???
Without them...we'd have to eat rice as there wouldn't have been enough farmers left farming to feed us. Let's think about that for a minute... How bout if we quit farming and just buy all of our food from China? There are plenty of jobs that us dumb ol' farmers could do that would pay alot more and we'd get to work that....What's it called?....a 40 hour work week that comes with healthcare,dental and a 401K. Oh yeah, and we make the same money during a drought year. And we wouldn't have to have millions of dollars worth of bank loans that depended on the weather.

[ril7572]

nope i just post dumb*** comments.

I was simply pointing out how much people in Logan co. got in reply to mwezell's comment.

The three counties i'm familiar with i absolutely don't know why the top farmers got that much, and my uncle is among them so i'm just not picking on you or anyone else. I stated what i feel about it and you called me out in another thread thats all.

I don't see the government subsidizing non farmers who struggle to make a living,instead they tax the crap out of them to give welfare to people making up to 1.5 million a year, thats not a farmer, that's a millionaire.

So again, WHO'S THIS GOOD FOR?

If you do some research on the farm bill, you will figure it out.

You might also realize why farmers will recieve almost no subsidies this year.

You might also figure out that only a small percentage of the money in this bill will go to farmers.

If this bill was so bad, why do you think it was passed by a large majority of Republicans and Democrats.

I appoligize for the dumb*** comment, uninformed would have been a better choice of words.

[ril7572]

Without them...we'd have to eat rice as there wouldn't have been enough farmers left farming to feed us.

BINGO. commodity prices were below the cost of production, not the case now.

[mwezell]

BINGO. commodity prices were below the cost of production, not the case now.

And the cost of putting a crop out this year is about TRIPLE what it was TWO years ago! That really comes down to INFLATION. The dollar is not worth much. Commodities are traded worldwide and the devaluation of the American currency is driving the price that we pay for all commodities here.

[Al]

BINGO. commodity prices were below the cost of production, not the case now.
I think it still is the case for pork now amd dairy is close.

[turkeytalker]

And the cost of putting a crop out this year is about TRIPLE what it was TWO years ago! That really comes down to INFLATION. The dollar is not worth much. Commodities are traded worldwide and the devaluation of the American currency is driving the price that we pay for all commodities here.


Isn't the devalued dollar good for government funded crop exports?

I can imagine putting a crop out this year will put alot of smaller farmers out of business.

[turkeytalker]

If you do some research on the farm bill, you will figure it out.

You might also realize why farmers will recieve almost no subsidies this year.

You might also figure out that only a small percentage of the money in this bill will go to farmers.

If this bill was so bad, why do you think it was passed by a large majority of Republicans and Democrats.

I appoligize for the dumb*** comment, uninformed would have been a better choice of words.


No problem with your comment.


Uninformed? Who? I've posted alot of the reasons i feel this bill needs to be trashed, why do you think its so good?


I'm not buying the ducks,pheasants,and quail argument either.

[mwezell]

Isn't the devalued dollar good for government funded crop exports?

I can imagine putting a crop out this year will put alot of smaller farmers out of business.

Before the ethanol boom, we were using about 80% of our corn crop and selling or giving away the rest. Yes, the weaker dollar should allow other countries to buy more of our crops. I hope so. If something doesn't keep the prices above the cost of production then farmers quit farming and get other jobs instead. Do I have to tell you what that means?

[ril7572]

No problem with your comment.


Uninformed? Who? I've posted alot of the reasons i feel this bill needs to be trashed, why do you think its so good?


I'm not buying the ducks,pheasants,and quail argument either.

http://www.pheasantsforever.org/

http://www.ducks.org/news/1552/DucksUnlimitedremind.html

http://www.qu.org/farmbill/

[turkeytalker]

http://www.pheasantsforever.org/

http://www.ducks.org/news/1552/DucksUnlimitedremind.html

http://www.qu.org/farmbill/


I'm not buying the crap your sellin.

Why do you support the farm bill? Stop the conservation BS. or i will pull out numbers:eek:.

[barney]

Turkeytalker, Do you know why payments to farmers were so high in these years???
Looks like about 3/4 th's of the farmers in Ky. survived those years without welfare.

If the farm bills were to be fare and helpful to the farmers, they should be divided equally between all farmers......... that are actually farmers. Then, and only then, would you see some great things happen, on the agricultural front!
• 74 percent of all farmers do not collect government subsidy payments in Kentucky, according to USDA (http://farm.ewg.org/farm/farms_by_state.php).

[CUZZIN]

Looks like about 3/4 th's of the farmers in Ky. survived those years without welfare.

If the farm bills were to be fare and helpful to the farmers, they should be divided equally between all farmers......... that are actually farmers. Then, and only then, would you see some great things happen, on the agricultural front!
• 74 percent of all farmers do not collect government subsidy payments in Kentucky, according to USDA (http://farm.ewg.org/farm/farms_by_state.php).Barney again i agree with you,thats the problem 26% get the help and the hell with the rest.It's like they want the little farmer out of the picture.My self i'm going to try it one more year and see what happens,dont want to but may haft to sell the whole nine yards.

[barney]

Barney again i agree with you,thats the problem 26% get the help and the hell with the rest.It's like they want the little farmer out of the picture.My self i'm going to try it one more year and see what happens,dont want to but may haft to sell the whole nine yards.
Well, they have succeeded with me. With fertilizer over $700 a ton, and looking at $5 fuel this summer, and no subsidy money flowing my way. I'm gonna concentrate on feeding my family, friends and neighbors. possibly setting up some sort of CSA, to help with funds, and farm labor. ;)

[ril7572]

Looks like about 3/4 th's of the farmers in Ky. survived those years without welfare.

If the farm bills were to be fare and helpful to the farmers, they should be divided equally between all farmers......... that are actually farmers. Then, and only then, would you see some great things happen, on the agricultural front!
• 74 percent of all farmers do not collect government subsidy payments in Kentucky, according to USDA (http://farm.ewg.org/farm/farms_by_state.php).

This is a good one. Listing a link as USDA (United States department of agriculture) But it opens the EWG (Environmantal working group) a group of tree hugging Kooks.:D:D:D Surely you know the difference:confused:

[quackrstackr]

That email has been circulated for years, although the dig against the farmers is newly added.

[buckfever]

I see it this way!.........am I wrong?

I think you're wrong in a lot of respects, and right in a few.

The way that I see it, the purposes of the farm bill make are so complex and multi-dimensional that it's grossly short-sighted to try to paint it as a "handout to rich farmers". A very good analogy is the "tax cuts for the rich" label that the democrats put on Bush's tax cuts.

I think you ignore the fact that wildlife conservation (along with other goals such as price stabilization) is also a principle goal and primary purpose of this bill.

IMO and in terms of wildlife and conservation, the federal farm bills, by far, have done the most to protecting our wildlife and our hunting heritage than any bills in the country's history. You can say what you want about the "rich" landowners getting CRP money to keep their lands out of production, but the bottom line is that wildlife depends on private lands in the USA for their survival. Absent the CRP-type programs, ducks, geese, quail and pheasant habitat would be reduced dramatically. IMO, if CRP didn't exist, hunting for these species would have gone the way of the Dodo some time ago. These programs are also immensely beneficial to virtually all other game and nongame species as well, including turkeys, whitetail, elk, and muleys.

I found it interesting that turkeytalker made the comment "leave the conservation BS out of it". If you left the conservation BS out of this bill, which is clearly of tantamount importance to anyone interested in wildlife conservation, just when does it become important?

Wildlife conservation ain't going to happen all by itself. Private landowners (rich or not) are simply not going to unilaterally agree to take their land out of production and basically donate it for the noble purpose of wildlife conservation. It's just totally unrealistic to expect private land owners to make a huge financial sacrifice to protect wildlife for the public good.

And if all these "rich" private landowners weren't able to take advantage of CRP and other benefits, just exactly what do you think is going to happen? Yep, all those "rich" landowners will look for other ways to get a return on their investment. That would include land development and/or row crop farming. Either way, it means loss of habitat and bad news for wildlife. Moreover, I think this would hurt the small farmer, b/c the increased supply of farm grain would result in lower prices.

Don't get me wrong though. I agree with the anti-farm billers that bill doesn't do enough to directly help small farmers that are struggling. I don't see that as a sufficient reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

However,

[barney]

This is a good one. Listing a link as USDA (United States department of agriculture) But it opens the EWG (Environmantal working group) a group of tree hugging Kooks.:D:D:D Surely you know the difference:confused:
I'm very well aware of that, it was the way the link was on EWG's site. And I don't agree with all that the "kooks" do, but..........I am also very well aware, that it takes bees........to make honey!;)

Also, something that seemed funny to me was the fact that,the CED of my local FSA office, gave me the web address to the EWG farm subsidy data base.:eek:

[buckfever]

I will, http://farm.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=21000

Now bare in mind, this isn't all of the money these "upstanding" guys are getting their hands on. The phase I master tobacco settlement, has money allocated, for distribution in individual countys........by county commities, guess who heads these commities in my county, and every other neighboring county. You guessed it!......... The suit and tie farmers I mentioned earlier, and they always appropreate money for their needs, while denieing the most of the smaller farmers funding.

I was, at one time close enough to the inside, to know how it worked. They would have "closed door" meetings, to figure out how to split the money up. Yes, that was illegal to do, the public is supposed to be notified..........but they would call it a special meeting, and to keep it legal would just post a flyer on the door anouncing the meeting, to the public.........like anyone who might be interested, would see it?:rolleyes:

I for one would like to see these guys have to pay all the money they have been stealing.......BACK!

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/TobaccoEcon/publications/kysettlefund.pdf

Barney - Like you, I am an "insider" into the tobacco settlements. I represented Philip Morris in several of the state suits and later worked on revisions to the Master Settlement Agreement.

I suggest you find a lawyer and sue. I'd also recommend contacting your local DA for possible criminal charges.

If "upstanding" "suit and tie farmers" were stealing moneys allocated to small farmers, that's conversion/theft. Not only could the little guys recover their damages (and possibly punitives) in a civil suit, those dirty dog coat and tie farmers with hands as soft as a baby's bottom are probably also looking at jail time for crimes. As one of those smaller farmers, it sounds to me like you'd be the perfect name plaintiff in a class action suit. :)

You also mentioned open meetings act violations, which, of course, could be remedied in your local circuit court (along with attorneys' fees for willful violations ;)). However, your post was a little inconsistent in terms of whether the act was violated. On the one hand, you claim they engaged in illegal closed door meetings, but in that same sentence, you say that they kept it "legal" by providing the required notice. Please clarify whether meetings were illegal or legal.

[barney]

And if all these "rich" private landowners weren't able to take advantage of CRP and other benefits, just exactly what do you think is going to happen? Yep, all those "rich" landowners will look for other ways to get a return on their investment. That would include land development and/or row crop farming. Either way, it means loss of habitat and bad news for wildlife. Moreover, I think this would hurt the small farmer, b/c the increased supply of farm grain would result in lower prices.

Don't get me wrong though. I agree with the anti-farm billers that bill doesn't do enough to directly help small farmers that are struggling. I don't see that as a sufficient reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

However,
Most of the CRP land, around here is river or creek bottom land anyway, it can never be developed, and a great %'tage of the rest is in the 100 year flood plain. and insurance companys have preswaded banks to stop loaning money on this land, for developmental purposes. So why not farm this land?

I do know that wildlife, needs nesting and young rearing, private areas, that are undisturbed, especially the neotropical songbirds. But my view on this is, there will always be areas like this, sometimes the least disturbed, and most wildlife friendly areas, are the overgrown areas right beside of urban development. Some of the highest deer densities in the state are in the major metropolitan areas. But.......on the flip side, farming the land also provides food, and cover for all wildlife, a major necessity in my book, for the healthy, higher populations of wildlife, desired by sportsmen.

The HUGE amounts of money allocated in these bills, could be used to buy land, that could be used by all of the people. not just the "very" select few who are being paid huge sums of money, to turn their land into private, wildlife preserves,(at tax payers expense) to benefit, their greedy selves!

Do you truly, think it's just for the benefit of wildlife, when a dollar is involved?

[barney]

Barney - Like you, I am an "insider" into the tobacco settlements. I represented Philip Morris in several of the state suits and later worked on revisions to the Master Settlement Agreement.

I suggest you find a lawyer and sue. I'd also recommend contacting your local DA for possible criminal charges.

If "upstanding" "suit and tie farmers" were stealing moneys allocated to small farmers, that's conversion/theft. Not only could the little guys recover their damages (and possibly punitives) in a civil suit, those dirty dog coat and tie farmers with hands as soft as a baby's bottom are probably also looking at jail time for crimes. As one of those smaller farmers, it sounds to me like you'd be the perfect name plaintiff in a class action suit. :)

You also mentioned open meetings act violations, which, of course, could be remedied in your local circuit court (along with attorneys' fees for willful violations ;)). However, your post was a little inconsistent in terms of whether the act was violated. On the one hand, you claim they engaged in illegal closed door meetings, but in that same sentence, you say that they kept it "legal" by providing the required notice. Please clarify whether meetings were illegal or legal.
I call them illegal! but they say they are legal, as long as the public is notified........even if it means sticking a notice on the door of the public building, at the start of proceedings.;)

[ril7572]

I think you're wrong in a lot of respects, and right in a few.

The way that I see it, the purposes of the farm bill make are so complex and multi-dimensional that it's grossly short-sighted to try to paint it as a "handout to rich farmers". A very good analogy is the "tax cuts for the rich" label that the democrats put on Bush's tax cuts.

I think you ignore the fact that wildlife conservation (along with other goals such as price stabilization) is also a principle goal and primary purpose of this bill.

IMO and in terms of wildlife and conservation, the federal farm bills, by far, have done the most to protecting our wildlife and our hunting heritage than any bills in the country's history. You can say what you want about the "rich" landowners getting CRP money to keep their lands out of production, but the bottom line is that wildlife depends on private lands in the USA for their survival. Absent the CRP-type programs, ducks, geese, quail and pheasant habitat would be reduced dramatically. IMO, if CRP didn't exist, hunting for these species would have gone the way of the Dodo some time ago. These programs are also immensely beneficial to virtually all other game and nongame species as well, including turkeys, whitetail, elk, and muleys.

I found it interesting that turkeytalker made the comment "leave the conservation BS out of it". If you left the conservation BS out of this bill, which is clearly of tantamount importance to anyone interested in wildlife conservation, just when does it become important?

Wildlife conservation ain't going to happen all by itself. Private landowners (rich or not) are simply not going to unilaterally agree to take their land out of production and basically donate it for the noble purpose of wildlife conservation. It's just totally unrealistic to expect private land owners to make a huge financial sacrifice to protect wildlife for the public good.

And if all these "rich" private landowners weren't able to take advantage of CRP and other benefits, just exactly what do you think is going to happen? Yep, all those "rich" landowners will look for other ways to get a return on their investment. That would include land development and/or row crop farming. Either way, it means loss of habitat and bad news for wildlife. Moreover, I think this would hurt the small farmer, b/c the increased supply of farm grain would result in lower prices.

Don't get me wrong though. I agree with the anti-farm billers that bill doesn't do enough to directly help small farmers that are struggling. I don't see that as a sufficient reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

However,

Excellent, well informed post

[turkeytalker]

Most of the CRP land, around here is river or creek bottom land anyway, it can never be developed, and a great %'tage of the rest is in the 100 year flood plain. and insurance companys have preswaded banks to stop loaning money on this land, for developmental purposes. So why not farm this land?

I do know that wildlife, needs nesting and young rearing, private areas, that are undisturbed, especially the neotropical songbirds. But my view on this is, there will always be areas like this, sometimes the least disturbed, and most wildlife friendly areas, are the overgrown areas right beside of urban development. Some of the highest deer densities in the state are in the major metropolitan areas. But.......on the flip side, farming the land also provides food, and cover for all wildlife, a major necessity in my book, for the healthy, higher populations of wildlife, desired by sportsmen.

The HUGE amounts of money allocated in these bills, could be used to buy land, that could be used by all of the people. not just the "very" select few who are being paid huge sums of money, to turn their land into private, wildlife preserves,(at tax payers expense) to benefit, their greedy selves!

Do you truly, think it's just for the benefit of wildlife, when a dollar is involved?


Very good post.

[turkeytalker]

A very good analogy is the "tax cuts for the rich" label that the democrats put on Bush's tax cuts.




I found it interesting that turkeytalker made the comment "leave the conservation BS out of it". If you left the conservation BS out of this bill, which is clearly of tantamount importance to anyone interested in wildlife conservation, just when does it become important?


I don't think comparing this to "tax cuts for the rich" is a very good analogy at all. One is rewarded for being more productive and the other is rewarded for being less productive or in being in a certain field.

If the tax breaks went to car manufacturers more than tire manufacturers maybe.


Tell me where some of this great CRP land is so i can hunt this bounty of wildlife this bill creates, or never mind i'll just keep hunting the real public lands for us mere peasants.

[buckfever]

Most of the CRP land, around here is river or creek bottom land anyway, it can never be developed, and a great %'tage of the rest is in the 100 year flood plain. and insurance companys have preswaded banks to stop loaning money on this land, for developmental purposes. So why not farm this land?

I do know that wildlife, needs nesting and young rearing, private areas, that are undisturbed, especially the neotropical songbirds. But my view on this is, there will always be areas like this, sometimes the least disturbed, and most wildlife friendly areas, are the overgrown areas right beside of urban development. Some of the highest deer densities in the state are in the major metropolitan areas. But.......on the flip side, farming the land also provides food, and cover for all wildlife, a major necessity in my book, for the healthy, higher populations of wildlife, desired by sportsmen.

I think every wildlife biologist in the country would disagree with you. Human sprawl does not lead to more wildlife and better habitat, and commercial farming does provide wildlife with the food and cover it needs to survive. The next time you drive north through Indiana in December, look across the 20 miles of unbroken, treeless corn stubble fields and make a list of all the cover provided by that harvested corn. And then jot down how many animals you see living in those barren corn fields.

The HUGE amounts of money allocated in these bills, could be used to buy land, that could be used by all of the people. not just the "very" select few who are being paid huge sums of money, to turn their land into private, wildlife preserves,(at tax payers expense) to benefit, their greedy selves!

OK, the federal gov't uses all of the farm bill money to buy 1/1,000,000 of the land that gov't currently just "rents" to keep out of production, so the American public now has another public park roughly the size of a county to use. Then what? Maybe we can raise taxes to maintain it.

The other 999,999 tracts of land owned by the "greedy", "rich", "suit and tie" farmers can then go back into production. I'm certain that all that extra production and supply will really provide a big benefit to the small farmers.

And since it will only take about 10 years for existing landowners in ND, SD, Montana, etc. etc. to tidy up those fence rows and clear out those nesting areas to make room for more wheat fields, we can all look forward to no more duck hunting. I'm confident that our lives will be just a little brighter with any waterfowling, and I'm sure that our gov'ts will be thrilled with the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars (annually) in hunting related tax reveunes. Now, we're really cooking, Barney!!! Got any more suggestions. :rolleyes:

Do you truly, think it's just for the benefit of wildlife, when a dollar is involved?[/quote]

Nobody ever said "it's just for the benefit of wildlife". My direct quote was that the farm bill's purposes were "complex and multi-dimensional", but you're so fixated on sticking it to the "rich guys that are stealing taxpayer's dollars" that you seemed to have overlooked the fact that it was turkeytalker that called any conservation impact or concerns "BS".

After reading through all this, I'm just shaking my head with the "spin" you're trying to put on this. I doubt you'd find anyone, anywhere that will tell you this farm bill is perfect, b/c it ain't. It's a piece of compromise legislation that has a lot of problems.

However, if you really know half as much as you say you know about this farm bill and STILL believe all the crap that you're spewing about it being a hand-out to rich landowners as part of some kind of ongoing class warfare conspiracy, you're not very bright or have some kind of bizarre agenda.

To be honest with you I really don't even care what your opinion is, but the factually disinformation that you're tossing around as fact is borderline ridiculous.

[turkeytalker]

I'm not buying the crap your sellin.

Why do you support the farm bill? Stop the conservation BS. or i will pull out numbers:eek:.


Buckfever i also love how easy it is to take something out of context on here, just delete until it says what you want it too right?:)

I'm sure everyone here loves to hunt and wants their grandchildren to enjoy the same but the truth is, all this conservation crap is exactly why this country is starving to death for oil right now. Are you following?

How many more years before our food prices are the same? What about land?

Of course Ducks Unlimited is for this bill and i'm bettin they get a pretty good chunk out of it as well. This is kind of a scare tactic and i just called it like i see it.


As for this not going to the ultra mega farmers you are being borderline ridiculous. I really don't think this country can afford to be subsidizing farmers making up to 1.5 million a year.

[barney]

[quote]I think every wildlife biologist in the country would disagree with you. Human sprawl does not lead to more wildlife and better habitat I would say,not all would fully disagree with that statement, as some forms of wildlife actually "thrive" in this type of habitat.


The next time you drive north through Indiana in December, look across the 20 miles of unbroken, treeless corn stubble fields and make a list of all the cover provided by that harvested corn. And then jot down how many animals you see living in those barren corn fields.

I agree, wildlife needs cover, thats for sure. But they also utilize that type of food source. Depends on what time of day you look, mid-day, even in a forrest, sometimes seems life less, to most. But just hang around till dusk,or dawn, thats when things come alive for the most part.
OK, the federal gov't uses all of the farm bill money to buy 1/1,000,000 of the land that gov't currently just "rents" to keep out of production, so the American public now has another public park roughly the size of a county to use. Then what? Maybe we can raise taxes to maintain it.
Why maintain it? I thought the whole purpose was to create "wild habitat"



The other 999,999 tracts of land owned by the "greedy", "rich", "suit and tie" farmers can then go back into production. I'm certain that all that extra production and supply will really provide a big benefit to the small farmers.

I think if the "moneys" were cut out, then things would even out. The small family farmer, is one of the most resourcefull, and ingenuitive, "entities" known. and according to EWG, I would figure they are the 75% in Ky. that don't get subsidy money. I also just can't help but figure, that the subsidy payments are the only thing keeping the "suits and ties", in the trade. The small family farmer is many times more efficient, with hands on, quality control, than a huge corporate, farming operation. And thus......we would have a safer, and more secure, food supply, in the wake of some natural disaster.

And since it will only take about 10 years for existing landowners in ND, SD, Montana, etc. etc. to tidy up those fence rows and clear out those nesting areas to make room for more wheat fields, we can all look forward to no more duck hunting. I'm confident that our lives will be just a little brighter with any waterfowling, and I'm sure that our gov'ts will be thrilled with the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars (annually) in hunting related tax reveunes. Now, we're really cooking, Barney!!! Got any more suggestions. :rolleyes:


I don't think you would have anything to worry about. See above...........
Nobody ever said "it's just for the benefit of wildlife". My direct quote was that the farm bill's purposes were "complex and multi-dimensional", but you're so fixated on sticking it to the "rich guys that are stealing taxpayer's dollars" that you seemed to have overlooked the fact that it was turkeytalker that called any conservation impact or concerns "BS".


Not really, even though they are crooks, and should be brought to justice, for their crimes. I'm just against all forms of welfare, as most end up being "abused" in one form or another. and this is no exception.


After reading through all this, I'm just shaking my head with the "spin" you're trying to put on this. I doubt you'd find anyone, anywhere that will tell you this farm bill is perfect, b/c it ain't. It's a piece of compromise legislation that has a lot of problems.

It takes people on both sides, with different views, to "weed out" the problems.......(pun intended) and I agree, it has problems!
However, if you really know half as much as you say you know about this farm bill and STILL believe all the crap that you're spewing about it being a hand-out to rich landowners as part of some kind of ongoing class warfare conspiracy, you're not very bright or have some kind of bizarre agenda.
The "class warfare" conspiracy, may just be localized, but I doubt it.:rolleyes: And I may be one brick short of a load, but I also know, you can't have thunder without lightning


To be honest with you I really don't even care what your opinion is, but the factually disinformation that you're tossing around as fact is borderline ridiculous.
Same here!........... and that last part sounds good, but thats why you make the big bucks, because you know how to enter a questionable degree of doubt'.........into any arguement!:eek::D

[mwezell]

This is a very good recent article to read. It may well mean the end to farm subsidies if grain prices continue to go up.http://business.theage.com.au/japans-hunger-becomes-a-dire-warning-for-other-nations-20080420-27ey.html?page=1
Subsidies are not meant to make people rich, and they DON'T, but they do keep the price of our food affordable. Venezuela subsidizes oil there and it is cheap. If I had to choose between oil and food, I think I'll take food. With the rising demand for food for China, India and the rest of the world, the prices may well go up to a point where farmers can be profitable and subsidies can be done away with..at least temporarily. Heck, right now prices for crops are all the way up to about what they were 30 years ago. We're on a roll I guess. There just might be a little light at the end of the tunnel after all. But then again, it's going to hurt when you go to the grocery store. You see barney and turkey, you have been getting your subsidy payment..at the grocery store. Thanks to subsidy payments to farmers,at least those "crooks and thieves" are still here farming so that you can eat without having to count on other regions of the World to make sure we have food on our table. I'm sure we could trust them to sell us food at some price...maybe. I guess the moral of this story should be...."don't gripe with your mouth full"--Mike:D

[barney]

This is a very good recent article to read. It may well mean the end to farm subsidies if grain prices continue to go up.http://business.theage.com.au/japans-hunger-becomes-a-dire-warning-for-other-nations-20080420-27ey.html?page=1
Subsidies are not meant to make people rich, and they DON'T, but they do keep the price of our food affordable. Venezuela subsidizes oil there and it is cheap. If I had to choose between oil and food, I think I'll take food. With the rising demand for food for China, India and the rest of the world, the prices may well go up to a point where farmers can be profitable and subsidies can be done away with..at least temporarily. Heck, right now prices for crops are all the way up to about what they were 30 years ago. We're on a roll I guess. There just might be a little light at the end of the tunnel after all. But then again, it's going to hurt when you go to the grocery store. You see barney and turkey, you have been getting your subsidy payment..at the grocery store. Thanks to subsidy payments to farmers,at least those "crooks and thieves" are still here farming so that you can eat without having to count on other regions of the World to make sure we have food on our table. I'm sure we could trust them to sell us food at some price...maybe. I guess the moral of this story should be...."don't gripe with your mouth full"--Mike:D
I don't have a problem with the honest farmers, and I am not running all farmers down........I am one.

The farmers I am talking about, have made a career out of how to get this farm bill money, by cheating, and they are "crooks and thieves" in my book! They are always on top of new legislation, and figuring how to make it pay off for them. One example,Several years ago, when the corn bases were established in this county, don't remember the year. Had a neighboring farmer, plow every tillable acre he had,and plant corn. He had never planted corn......ever! He was a part time tobacco farmer, that held down a full time job, off the farm. When questioned, why he planted so much corn,that year, he said he planned on getting into hogs, he never did. But his corn base was set, with that one years work. Now he has been getting thousands in corn subsidies since the drop in prices, and has never grown another stalk of corn, since.

Also have a farmer up the road that insures his stawberry crop and other assorted crops, with Gov. funded, NAP (Noninsured Crop Assistance Program), costs him $100 dollars per crop, or a cap of $300 dollars per county. He said, and I quote, "thats the best $300 I ever spent" "something always happens to strawberries, late frost, wet spell, or some other "disaster". And if I'm not mistaken, an acre of berries is worth 4 or 5 thousand, if disaster strikes....and it does every year. It don't help any, that the adjusters, don't know "crap" about these specialty crops, so they just dish out the money, with out question!:rolleyes: I wish I had that job!! I can just glance at a field of produce, and tell you the level of care it had!!;)

Thats how it hurts the small guy like me, I plant small high value, well cared for plots. But, I cant sell my product, if the farmer up the road is selling the "leftovers", from his acres and acres, of "disaster" at a very reduced, cash price, because he has already been paid for his crop through NAP. Happens every, single year, with that fellow, and a few more, near by!The gov. payments just help them to expand their acreage, of high dollar crops, to get more and more "free money" And as a taxpayer, and honest farmer, seems I am paying for my own demise!