How does Ky quail hunting compare ??

[Valley Station]

Was reading a survey report on quail hunting this year in Texas.
In Texas,this season quail hunters were averaging flushing 12 to 15 coveys a day. Some reported up to 42 coveys per day.
Now thats bird huntin'!
[:)]

[Multidigits]

Yeah, but Ky. has alaska beat all to hell.

[Dangermouse]

I slightly disagree with you Adam , I believe we can blame Ky goverment as well as ourselves . Mountain top removal has opened up hundreds of acres , but most of it is covered with sereca(guess thats right). As many of you say here its ,alot about habitat. If state goverment would regulate reclaim operations must closer , having a plan for plants that are better for small game . I think it would make things , a least in eastern Ky much better . But corperations pay big bucks to have their say so in state goverment.

Everywhere you go there you are

[ribsplitter]

Adam has anyone ever voiced any opinions toward this to the mining reclamation board ,that you know of .Where or who do you think would be the best person to go to to get the ball rolling on this.You guys are right the open strip jobs are a major waste of habitat ,I have also said that for years .Just a cheaper way out for the big companys and they really snookered somebody good, us I guess..We dont have the strip land that you have farther east but we do have alot here and it would be prime if it were planted with something beneficial to the wildlife..

[Dangermouse]

Sounds good if you could get something done , I think KY just loves their elk program . I see those things all the time , roaming in pastures . Hunting elk ? Not nearly as spooky as whitetail . Never hunted elk , but I think it would be kinda like shooting jersy cows . Real sport there .

Everywhere you go there you are

[Larry Carter]

Just a blip in this conversation from my observations. Texas and Oklahoma have quail because---many acres [want to say millions] that can't be bush hogged. Rock outcroppings that make tractor driving a challenge and bush hog blades break. Not the end of the story but habitat that has thickets realitively undisturbed. Now boys get back to fixing those strip mines. Ruffed Grouse Societry has a mini book on mine reclamation for habitat improvement.

[biologist]

Before I start on this topic, I will tell you that I am a wildlife biologist. However, I won't reveal my name or the type of job I currently have. It might not be the brave thing to do, but it is the smart thing to do.

Just want to let you know that KDFWR is trying to work with coal companies to produce more wildlife friendly habitat and it is the elk program that you are so critical of that is getting it done. With money provided by a RMEF grant, several acres of sericia/fescue were replaced with grass/legumes on Martin Co. Coal property last year. Plans are in place to continue this type of activity as well as provide seed mixtures to companies to plant during initial reclaimation. Also, the Dept. has teamed up with RMEF to put a fellow on the ground in Eastern Kentucky to meet with coal companies in order to set up management/hunting leases and encourage wildlife friendly reclaimation practices. While it may seem that the Dept. is placing more emphasis on the elk program than anything else, there is actually very little staff time from the public lands program spent on elk.

I agree with many of the opinions expressed about the problems with some of our WMAs. It is very easy to stand on the outside and say that nothing is being done to "fix" the WMAs in Kentucky However, the problems that need to be fixed differ according to your main interest. Many of the things you suggest to fix things for one species causes detrimental effects for another. It is very difficult to balance the wants and needs of all species with the wants/needs of all the user groups and the wants/needs/regulations/red tape of the government agencies that own the land. Then try to do it with the budget, manpower and equipment available and do it in the 37.5 hours/week that state employees are allowed to work. Then try to make the weather cooperate!

As for leadership in Frankfort, I can tell you that as far as manpower and equipment to work with goes, we are better off now than we have been at any time since I've been working. It is a big state with a lot of diverse interests, attitudes and opinions. The Dept. may not be making everyone happy all of the time, but we are doing the best we can. I appreciate constructive criticism, but it is important to look at the big picture, not just your corner of it.

[GSP]

Biologist,
Thanks for posting.

[biologist]

Sorry that you misunderstood my comment about the big picture. I agree with everything you say about early succession management. By big picture, I was referring not only to biologically sound management but also the politics and red tape you have to go through to get anything done. Yes, it would be great if we could just do what needs to be done when it needs to be done. Just like Heartwood and other "preservationist" organizations would like to take people out of the equation, it seems to me that a lot of folks who are critical of the Dept. would like to take politics and money out of the equation. Unfortunately, we are a government agency and you just can't do it. Don't think for a minute that every Dept. employee, including the area manager, would not like to change the way that Central WMA is managed. However, it is what it is and it provides a service to those who participate in field trials. Is it frustrating? Sure it is, but you have to pick your battles and with all of the other public land out there, that one just isn't on the top of my list. As for early succession management, the main problem is that KDFWR just doesn't own that much land. Even though the Corps leases may state that we are required to do habitat managment and includes timber harvest as a practice, it just isn't that easy. While the process is not as complex as what the USFS goes through, Corps areas are still subject to NEPA laws and they require forest inventories and forest management plans before timber can be harvested. Have we been short sited by not already having these completed? Sure we have, but I believe we are heading in the right direction and hopefully will be in the business of true forest management in the near future. Keep in mind that "Wildlife Management" is a fairly new science. We are constantly learning and methods change as research proves and disproves theory. We're not perfect, but we are trying to do the right things! Then we get back to the money and politics. Believe it or not, there are fears that if we start harvesting timber for money, some folks will want to use it for making money and not for sound wildlife management. I could go on, but I hope you see more clearly what I mean by "big picture".

I occasionally read the posts on this site and get a lot of insight on the hot topics among hunters. I guess what got me riled enough to post was your comments about the elk program. Whether you believe it or not, the elk program is the best chance we have of getting money to do grassland work that will benefit quail and rabbits in Eastern Kentucky. Since most folks in E. KY don't qualify for farm bill money, our best bet is working on coal land and the only money we are getting for that is coming from RMEF grants. Sometimes you have to use the charismatic megafauna as a means to help manage for other species.

[Dangermouse]

Glad you to hear from you biologist , and if we had to get your goat to get you to post then it was still worth it . I live in eastern Ky and I think people here are used to hearing the state being long on promises and short on results . And I am glad to hear that youre giving a better vision to coal companies . But I dont know if anyone here really believes that the state will change exsisting fescue for better small game grasses , in the name of the All-Mighty Elk . I dont know if you realize that most small game hunters here (a least the ones I know ) really does not like the Elk program . Their reasons very , more money for another tag 1 in 10,000 chance (a guess), not putting the money where most hunters are and that carry most of the wildlife programs . But there has been alot of site seers coming to view the ELK ,ah most of them dont buy a KY hunting license, but it has drawn alot of attention from the general public, I will give you that . Glad to hear from you .


Everywhere you go there you are

[biologist]

Just as I read this forum to get insight from folks outside the Dept. looking in, I was trying to give some insight from the inside looking out. I admitted that the Dept. has been lax in not having forest management plans in place. However, hindsite is 20/20. We can't change anything in the past, but we can work for positive change for the future. As for being in breach of our contract with the Corps, from what I understand, as a general rule, they do not want timber cut on these areas. They do not want to visually impact the landscape from the lake and since most Corps projects only own property to the top of the ridge above the lake, it is hard to cut without causing visual impact.

I also didn't say that managing small areas was a waste of time. All I said was that we use what we have to best advantage possible. In other words, like it or not, we have elk and we can use the program to leverage money from non-traditional sources to do habitat work that will help small game. While you may not like the tourism angle being taken with elk, I'm sure the folks in E. KY that are benifiting from those tourists are very grateful. Who knows, a visit to see the elk herd may inspire someone to buy a license or the store owner who sells lunch to the tourists may make enough money that he/she can go out and buy a new rifle or some fishing tackle, which in turn will bring money to the Dept.

I don't know who your friends and relatives that work for the Dept. are, but I hope you will listen to the advise that they give you concerning your future career. I remember what it was like to be young and zealous and confident in my ability to change the system and make the wildlife world a better place. I wish you the best of luck in your future career and hope that you are able to do great things for the resource and those who use it. Just remember that if you work for a state agency, you can't take politics out of the equation and everything you do for one group is going to make another group mad or jealous. It's a fine line and you have to have thick skin and a good sense of balance.

[Multidigits]

Biologist, do you have any information about a boat ramp that was well into the 4th year of the 6 year plan being withheld because of politics within the Dept. decision making structure???? Isn't the Dept. supposed to be free of politics, and isn't this part of the the KRS's????

So we have elk and we get o use those elk to do great things for small game....that sounds fine to us all. Was that the overall plan to start with, and what was the plan to help small game before the elk entered the Big Picture????

[biologist]

I knew I shouldn't have gotten into to this! One last post, then I am out of here.

Although KDFWR is self-funded, it is still a part of state government. Therefore, we have to play by state government rules. Do you know of any state government agency that is free of politics? Is it right? No. Is it reality? Yes. It wouldn't matter if KDFWR had $1 billion in the bank, we can only spend what the legislature tells us we can spend and we can only have the number of employees state government tells us we can have, and we still have to get approval from the cabinet secretary before we can buy equipment.

I didn't say that the original plan was to use elk as a means of getting habitat work done for small game. All I'm saying is that you make the best use of what is available to you. Let me use a sports analogy here. If you are a UK fan, you probably dislike UT. However, if it comes down to the end of the season and UT has to beat Florida in order for UK to win the conference, you'd better believe that UK fans are going to be pulling for UT. So, even if you dispise elk and the elk project, if you can use elk management as a means to obtain money to convert fescue/sericea to grass/legumes, why not support it. The elk are here, they aren't going anywhere, so we might as use them to our best advantage. If that offends someone's principles, I apologize, but we have to play the cards we are dealt and make the best of them.

This is my last tirade on this subject. It is perfectly fine to criticize. Dept. employees do it all the time. However, as we are told, it doesn't do much good unless you have a workable solution to offer. I believe that many folks on this site offer what they sincerely believe are workable solutions. Unfortunately, they often don't know how state and federal government agencies operate and they are impatient for quick fixes. Problems didn't develop overnight and they will not be fixed overnight. How many times in the last 3 posts have I admitted that mistakes have been made? But remember, things that are important to you now often didn't seem that important 10-20 years ago and things that are important now may not be 10-20 years in the future. It is the same with wildlife management. Hopefully, we are learning from past mistakes and trying to predict what will be needed for the future. We need your positive, productive, proactive input rather than constant negativie comments about programs, politicians, and personnel.

[ribsplitter]

Just curious about something .You guys were talking about timber management and cutting timber being held up by federal regulations and red tape etc.When I visit the federal and state forests in the UP of Michigan there is always timber cutting going on all over there forests . What makes it so hard for Ky. to do this ?They manage all of there forests by the age of the timber .On our first trip up there we stopped at a ranger district office and talked to a biologist who gave us maps of the whole UP that specifically showed us the timber age in each area . Its just hard to understand ,It seems everywhere I go to hunt im surprised at how together the other states have it.I really wish it didnt seem this way to me but it does .Dont get me wrong im not blaming anyone because i wouldnt know who to blame if I did .But I do honestly think its a state problem here and not federal .When you see other states doing the exact things that Ky says it cannot because of federal problems you know it cant be federal or the other states would be in the same boat...

[Multidigits]

Here's a good example of how the Dept. values input from the peons, and what it does with that opinion later on. Few this little ditty, especially the ends of it. The phrase "caught on tape" seems to apply.

http://www.paintsville.org/jamsession.htm

[biologist]

And you folks wonder why KDFWR employees never respond to your questions and why when we do we don't reveal our names. I can assure you that these posts are not coming from Roy Grimes. If you feel like I was being condecending to you, I apologize. I truly wish you nothing but the best with your career. All conservation organizations need strong people with values, ethics and high ideals. I just want you to realize that nothing is as easy as it seems from the outside looking in.

I haven't read enough posts to realize that "big picture" was the wrong phrase to use. I sincerely apologize for that. Perhaps I should have been more like the Paul Harvey of KDFWR and referred to it as "the rest of the story". All I was trying to do was point out that there is more than one side to every story. I was just trying to give perspective from a field biologist. I realize that you are frustrated with the system. Believe me I am frustrated with it every day. We are constantly frustrated by trying to sell habitat improvement practices to landowners whose only interest is a food plot for deer. We are constantly frustrated to see logging shut down on the DBNF because a small group of people know how to use the court system to get it stopped. We are constantly frustrated by reclaimation laws that encourage coal companies to plant fescue/sericea rather than wildlife friendly grass/legueme. And we are constantly frustrated at being berated by the sportmen who are the people you are trying to help. Believe me, the negative attitude that sometimes oozes from this site does not help. All it does is dishearten those lowly field biologists, like myself, who are trying to do the best they can with what they have. Again, I have pretty thick skin and have no problem with constructive criticism and appreciate any positive, proactive suggestions you might have for specific fixes for specific problems. Again, sorry if I offended anyone. It was not my intention.

[GSP]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have pretty thick skin and have no problem with constructive criticism and appreciate any positive, proactive suggestions you might have for specific fixes for specific problems. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Making 5 posts proves your thick skin![:D]

I just have a question and I ain't here to flame. Is there a long term WMA Plan? I quess what I'm asking is, do you guys have a written long term / short term plan for the WMAs. I know y'all are not running it by seat of pants and I don't intend for this question to sound like that.

[Dangermouse]

hey guys , I have enjoyed the talk here . Went grouse hunting today saw 0 birds , 3 elk . Oh and thanks to biologist for giving us a different point of view . I had 1 elk 20 yards away from my running diesel 4x4 pickup , you guys believe that crap. Oh if you guys want a picture of some KY elk , I think I have some of 4 cows and a small bull . I will post them if someone asks . Of course there may be many pictures of them on here , I mostly come to the small game channel.

Everywhere you go there you are

[biologist]

GSP...I know there are short term plans and I believe work is being done on long term plans. I know, long term plans should have been completed long ago. As I said before, things that would seem to be no-brainers now (like not recommending sericea for small game habitat) just did not seem that important in years past.

Adam...I do believe that you and I are on the same page about a lot of things. However, time and experience has taught me to pick my battles carefully. I know that bashing certain individuals that you have had conflicts with gives some instant gratification. I have done it myself, only not on a public forum. That may make me a coward, but I really need my paycheck! I don't know where you intend to pursue your career in wildlife biology, but I hate to see you burn bridges unnecessarily. I have read several of your posts in the Habitat Improvement section and I believe that you have a very good understanding of sound management practices. I just wish that was all there was to being a biologist with a government agency. Unfortunately, as employees of the state, we have to attempt to mesh sound management with the desires of a diverse group of users, including those brain dead deer hunters you referred to. We aren't always successful, but we are not the enemy. You say you respect the field biologists, but when you criticize the Dept. and the management practices on the WMAs, you are criticizing every technician, area manager, and biologist that works on those areas. I understand your mistrust of those in high places, but I think you will find that if you have suggestions for specific practices on a specific area, the local manager will be more than happy to listen and sometimes we can make them happen. I'm not sure where you live, but if there is a WMA close to you, give the Public Lands Biologist a call and offer suggestions. I can't promise immediate results, but I'm sure they will be willing to discuss it with you.

I didn't really get on here to argue or to defend everything that KDFWR does. I guess my skin thinned just a little and I got aggrevated by the negativity. So, I decided to try and provide a different perspective. It never hurts to look at things from different angles! I do it every time I check out this forum. I'd really love to be able to tell you that if you can fix the problems with the Dept., you are welcome to take my job and fix them. However, I'm afraid you would take me up on it and as I said before, I really need the paycheck!

[biologist]

So far, the only thing you've done to offend me is call me Roy! Seriously, trees falling on the ground may be a lot closer than you think. It might even be happening now on some WMAs. Check with the local Public Lands Biolists. Please don't give up working with the field staff just because you have been burned by TB. I hope that you find an agency out West that is devoid of political influence, but I highly doubt that you will. You might have to manage deserted island in the middle of the ocean to get away from politics! Anyway, I wish you nothing but the best of luck.

I just thought of something positive that folks can do. I don't have it in front of me, but I recently got a newsletter from the USFS that gives info on upcoming actions. Believe it or not, there was at least one proposal to create early succession stage conditions by cutting trees. I believe it was on the London District. Also, the Somerset District is proposing conversion of fescue to native grass/legume, which includes the use of roundup. Both of these proposals are critical to future management of the DBNF. Heartwood will fight them with everything they have, so it is important that we rally together and make sure our voice is heard. If you aren't on the USFS scoping form list, call the Winchester office and have your name added. When you get the scoping notice for proposed actions, take the time to write a letter to the USFS to support the action. It doesn't have to be a long letter detailing why you support the action. Just include your name and address and let them know that you support it. By the way, I didn't mean to ignore your questions about timber management in Michigan. I have never been there or talked to any other their biologists, so I can't give any insight into what they do or how they accomplish it. I do know that the Sierra Club sued them over it a couple of years ago, but I don't know what the outcome was.

[imported_n/a]

Quote--Also, the Dept. has teamed up with RMEF to put a fellow on the ground in Eastern Kentucky to meet with coal companies in order to set up management/hunting leases and encourage wildlife friendly reclaimation practices--Posted by Biologist

Please explain. This just may be the booger man I've been expecting. Who will be leasing? Who will be paying to hunt? Can anyone else answer this? Hope you're still checking this topic biologist.

The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: Proverbs 12:27

[Feedman]

Biologist,
I enjoyed reading your post. It gave me some insight on how things work from the frankfort perspective.
I disagree with you on one point. I would cheer for the University Of Moscow before I would cheer for UT. I Had to live in that Orange Hell hole for 4 years and that was enough for me.

It ain't braggin, if you can back it up.

[Hunting_Medic]

Sorry freedman, I just checked.....University of Moscow doesn't even have sport teams to root for! http://www.msu.ru/english/

[biologist]

Sorry, I should have been more clear about leasing of coal property. I believe it would work like Addingtin and Begley WMAs. KDFWR would enter a lease agreement with the company that would allow for public hunting. Addington requires a permit fee ($12.50) but Begley doesn't, so I guess each lease might have different requirements. I believe the fee is supposed to go back to the area to cover costs associated with managing the area. I guess it would be a pain if each area starts charging a permit fee, but maybe we could suggest one permit to cover all of the coal leases.

[imported_n/a]

Thanks for the response, I'm all for "that" kind of an arrangement and I beleive many others would be also. As long as its kept open to the public and stays under "our" departments control. I feel better having read some of your post biologist. I get the feeling that you might actually care. Only problem is that as you stated, good intentions get ravished in the governing of it all. This is the case with all aspects of life. I cheer for those like you in the dep. Carry on.

The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: Proverbs 12:27

[Birdman]

Da-n, you boys been bussy this weekend. [:D] Sounds like everything is go. [;)] Adam I'll assure you bio. is not Roy, and he is wright, he's come a long way in his years with the department. Started out wet behind the ears, and has developed into a top notch biologist. He is also correct about things taking time. The Kentucky Grouse Hunters have been working diligently for about 10 years now, on habitat improvement. Like bio. said, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some results real soon. And I feel sure with out the help of the people on this site and Rolly Beers, it would never had changed. Always remember, drastic times call for drastic measures. And biologist, never in the 10 years of work, were any of our comments, directed to our field biologist. We simply need to keep on keeping on.[;)]

[Multidigits]

[:D]

[biologist]

Adam, No need to be embarassed because I don't think biologist is who you think he is. Since there is a chance that my rantings might be falsely attributed to someone else, I should probably stop now. While I doubt that I changed anyone's mind or increased anyone's trust in the Dept. as a whole, I appreciate the opportunity to voice my opinions.

If it has always been your ambition to work in the west, by all means go for it. However, if you have a desire to work in KY, don't let a past conflict with anyone run you off. If you do, then they win. Even though the Commissioner is the head of the Dept., most of us like to believe that we work for the resource and those who use it. It may sound like a cliche, but it's probably the only thing that keeps us sane!

A wise man once told me the difference between a white man and an indian. The white man builds a big fire and stands way back, while an indian builds a small fire and stands close. We can't change everything at once, so we need to be like the indian and build small fires, stand close and keep them burning.

[Dangermouse]

I dont think a moron , you just have the passion of youth.

Everywhere you go there you are

[Larry Carter]

Just don't guess so much in print. Guess in emails or PM's then don't listen to anyone's guesses either!!

[Birdman]

I love it.

[ribsplitter]

Just be happy you have a guess to offer Adam

[BeardBuster]

Adam, sounds like you gotta lot of anger built up in ya! They make pills that are suppose to take care of that.

[imported_n/a]

Are you really Adam?

The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: Proverbs 12:27

[imported_n/a]

Well we don't know who's who on this topic. It was humor. Well maybe it wasn't.

The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: Proverbs 12:27

[Feedman]

Adam,
You've got spirit. Don't lose it. I will drive over and visit you at Oakwood.


It ain't braggin, if you can back it up.