Uplandchessies

[hitch]

I just noticed your signature line especially the part about the Ruffed Grouse is not king. If he is not king who is? Surely to pete you are not saying the woodcock is a far superior bird.

[trust me]

I'll let Upland speak for himself, but he and I have had this very discussion. He's a big fan of the doodles.

I guess the definition of "king" is subjective, but of the flying upland game in Kentucky I've hunted (grouse, woodcock, quail), nothing else comes close to grouse in terms of difficulty, scarcity and satisfaction gained by bagging one.

Quail are fun, scarce, easy to hit but surprisingly hard to kill. Their numbers are low enough to make me leave them alone around here. A young dog can learn to handle quail fairly quickly.

Woodcock are plentiful in season, stick like glue and are great for training dogs. When your dog points and you can see the little doodle stepping around in front of the dog, you almost feel sorry for it. It's flush is neither fast nor furious, and when it tops out at the top of the cover and pauses, they're a cinch to hit and bring down. It only seems to take a pellet or two to anchor them to the ground. The limit is 3 and in Wisconsin I've limited out before 9:00 am. Thank goodness there were harder birds to hunt closeby.

Grouse are hard to find even in the good years. They can be high or low on the hill. Hard to hit, hard to kill, hard for a dog to handle. A flushing grouse is loud, fast and furious, enough to make an inexperienced hunter stand there with his gun down and his mouth gaped open. Roadhunters can be hard on them but put a good bird dog on the ground with a good wingshot behind it and the grouse still has the upper hand. He'll win a lot more than he'll lose, that's for sure.

[hitch]

Trust me you make some very good points and I agree. If I wanted to hunt quail I could find more then enough to keep me happy each day, but they just do not do much for me and I sort of feel sorry for them. Woddcock best I can tell are the village idiots of the upland world. They hold forever, and then when flushed tweeter like a fairy and clumsily glide 30 yards most of the time. They are sinfully easy and will make even a mediocre at best dog look like a champ.

It is hard to have any respect for a bird that eats worms and doesn't have sense enough to elude it's predators any better then they do. I guess if all I had was flushing dogs they might be a godsend when compared to Grouse.

Their is nothing that compares to the wildness and elusiveness of the Rufed Grouse IMO. Their explosive flushes and ability to out wit most hunters and dogs puts them in a class by themselves.

Someone famous once said "there are millions of dogs in the world, but only an elite few will be remembered as Grouse dogs." That says it all in my book as no analogy has been made to the woodcock, if anything people always say "woodcock best thing for a young dog." That sums it up on the doodles behalf as well.

[trust me]

Their explosive flushes and ability to out wit most hunters and dogs puts them in a class by themselves.



Two of my partners had been chasing a bird all this season. He would hang out in a terrible briar thicket and no matter how they approached he would flush out early and use cover to escape. Smart, or lucky, that bird was pointed 6 times by good dogs and never had a shot fired at him.

Friday I made an honest grouse out of him, but the score was still Grouse 6, Hunters and Dogs 1. When grouse have been harassed a time or two they get very hard to kill.

[Bee]

I hate to bust in on the love letters you two are exchanging here, but the truth (my version anyway)is that they are both fine birds, in the their own distinct ways. Each has its merits. The grouse does not leave it territory much, after it s fall dispersal flights, and with thehome town knowledge it seems to know and execute perfectly the nuances for flyimng through hemlocks and thickets. A woodcock on \the migration move is like "new ducks", and is very vulnerable. I have seen days in the upper midwest on the woodcock home turf, before the flight, where yo u could not get any closer to one than you could to a grouse that had somehow lived to Feb 28 in a hollow 50 yards deep off 460 in Painstville. Slippery. Give each bird its due and respect . On some days either of them can be easy and on some they are each impossible. If we just wanted to shoot something we would be deer hunters.

[trust me]

. Give each bird its due and respect .

I thought I did.:D Honestly, I've never seen a slippery woodcock, neither here nor in Wisconsin.

[hitch]

I hate to bust in on the love letters you two are exchanging here, but the truth (my version anyway)is that they are both fine birds, in the their own distinct ways. Each has its merits. The grouse does not leave it territory much, after it s fall dispersal flights, and with thehome town knowledge it seems to know and execute perfectly the nuances for flyimng through hemlocks and thickets. A woodcock on \the migration move is like "new ducks", and is very vulnerable. I have seen days in the upper midwest on the woodcock home turf, before the flight, where yo u could not get any closer to one than you could to a grouse that had somehow lived to Feb 28 in a hollow 50 yards deep off 460 in Painstville. Slippery. Give each bird its due and respect . On some days either of them can be easy and on some they are each impossible. If we just wanted to shoot something we would be deer hunters.

Anything that sits out in the wide open snow and on top of it to boot is far from slippery.

The woodcock I contacted over the last few weeks were amazingly dumb, worse then pen raised quail from what I saw. I think I at one point I saw one actually riding on my dogs back as if he was going to get a free ride back North.:D

I understand your love of the cock o' the woods as everyone has to have something in life they love and cherish.

I see it as kind of cherishing a carp or a catfish. Rather then cherishing a 24" brown trout sipping caddis in 2 feet of water. Comparing woodcock and Grouse is not one bit different.

[uplandchessies]

I just noticed your signature line especially the part about the Ruffed Grouse is not king. If he is not king who is? Surely to pete you are not saying the woodcock is a far superior bird.

H'mmmm. Let's see. Woodcock are my favorite bird to hunt, but I can't place them as king. I think pheasant will test the best of hunter and dog and could "possibly" vie for the title, but early season (young) birds do come easy. Wild chukar are as tough as they come and they deserve a ranking above the ruffed grouse, but I wouldn't call them king. Desert quail run like no other and at times are called "ghost" due to how they disappear right in front of your eyes and the dogs nose. I've also had days on the prairie where I couldn't get within a 100 yards of chickens, sharptails and sage grouse. That makes for a tough day, but that usually isn't the 'norm." I give the status of king to the mountain quail. Without taking into consideration of where they live (7,000 to 10,000 ft. plus elevation) or the terrain that can be impossible to pursue them in; they are as spooky as any bird I've hunted. Most people won't hunt them due to how difficult they are and what it takes to hunt them. Running? They make all the others look like barnyard chickens and start running from you as you get out of bed. (Ha) They're as tough as they come.

Additionally, until you've hunted western ruffed grouse, one can't label the ruff as king. It's night and day comparing the two. Eastern ruffs are quite the challenge, but their kin to the west can (and I've seen it) be as dumb as spruce grouse. Actually, the blue grouse in Oregon were much more of a challenge than the ruffs.

I like hunting them all and each specie is challenging. Depends on pressure (which western ruffs don't get), time of day, time of year, etc, etc. It just gets under my skin when people proclaim the ruff as king when he doesn't deserve it as most haven't hunted the others game birds or the ruff to the west.

[uplandchessies]

Trust me you make some very good points and I agree. If I wanted to hunt quail I could find more then enough to keep me happy each day, but they just do not do much for me and I sort of feel sorry for them. Woddcock best I can tell are the village idiots of the upland world. They hold forever, and then when flushed tweeter like a fairy and clumsily glide 30 yards most of the time. They are sinfully easy and will make even a mediocre at best dog look like a champ.

It is hard to have any respect for a bird that eats worms and doesn't have sense enough to elude it's predators any better then they do. I guess if all I had was flushing dogs they might be a godsend when compared to Grouse.

Their is nothing that compares to the wildness and elusiveness of the Rufed Grouse IMO. Their explosive flushes and ability to out wit most hunters and dogs puts them in a class by themselves.

Someone famous once said "there are millions of dogs in the world, but only an elite few will be remembered as Grouse dogs." That says it all in my book as no analogy has been made to the woodcock, if anything people always say "woodcock best thing for a young dog." That sums it up on the doodles behalf as well.

OMG! Sounds like a hit a soft spot.

Cap on my flushing dogs all you want. They have hunted the best of all the birds and 99.9% have all come from heavily pressured, public land. My dogs (dog) are as seasoned as they come and have had more birds shot over them in a season than most will ever see in a lifetime.

Enjoy "your" king and I'll enjoy my "Mediocre" dog. :)

[uplandchessies]

Anything that sits out in the wide open snow and on top of it to boot is far from slippery.

The woodcock I contacted over the last few weeks were amazingly dumb, worse then pen raised quail from what I saw. I think I at one point I saw one actually riding on my dogs back as if he was going to get a free ride back North.:D

I understand your love of the cock o' the woods as everyone has to have something in life they love and cherish.

I see it as kind of cherishing a carp or a catfish. Rather then cherishing a 24" brown trout sipping caddis in 2 feet of water. Comparing woodcock and Grouse is not one bit different.

The birds you encountered over the last few weeks are very tired birds returning north.

I prefer musky. Now there's a king!

[hitch]

I do not disagree with alot that you have said. And I can't really knock a mans dog either if your dogs make you happy then that is all that is important. I have hunted behind flushing dogs and it just didn't do it for me. I prefer to walk up on a dog on a rigid point and having the bird flush at my disposal rather then the other way around, but that is just me.

I do think that flushing dogs and Grouse are a bad combo at least here in the Southern Appalachians as it is just a recipe to get screwed more so then normal.

There is no doubt in my mind who is the king of the upland world in the Mtns around here and it definitely isn't the ugliest bird which lives on the ground. IMO they are not worth wasting a shell over and not worth getting a skillet hot over as well. They are slow fliers and slow to evade a dog or anything else best I can tell.

Woodcock are kind of the lazy mans game bird. The seem to prefer flat ground, hold well, and once flushed if missed (how is beyond me) only fly a 20 yards so they are easy to get a second shot at. Plus they whistle to give you a good track to follow through the woods. I just have never been impressed with them and it is sort of like kissing your sister, gets the job done but not very enjoyable.

[uplandchessies]

I do not disagree with alot that you have said. And I can't really knock a mans dog either if your dogs make you happy then that is all that is important. I have hunted behind flushing dogs and it just didn't do it for me. I prefer to walk up on a dog on a rigid point and having the bird flush at my disposal rather then the other way around, but that is just me.

I do think that flushing dogs and Grouse are a bad combo at least here in the Southern Appalachians as it is just a recipe to get screwed more so then normal.

There is no doubt in my mind who is the king of the upland world in the Mtns around here and it definitely isn't the ugliest bird which lives on the ground. IMO they are not worth wasting a shell over and not worth getting a skillet hot over as well. They are slow fliers and slow to evade a dog or anything else best I can tell.

Woodcock are kind of the lazy mans game bird. The seem to prefer flat ground, hold well, and once flushed if missed (how is beyond me) only fly a 20 yards so they are easy to get a second shot at. Plus they whistle to give you a good track to follow through the woods. I just have never been impressed with them and it is sort of like kissing your sister, gets the job done but not very enjoyable.



My dogs are flushers, but they will hold ("point") birds. Not like a pointer, but he (they) do lock up.

I have to disagree with you that flushers and grouse are a bad combo. They get in the thick stuff, we follow and birds end up in the bag. I will say it's not as easy hunting behind flushers. You have to be somewhat fit, trust the dog and keep pace. I think that's why many dislike hunting over flushers.

Now it switches to king around here. Usually when this debate starts it's the ruff is "king," period.

Woodcock the lazy mans bird? I think the hunt is the same for them and grouse. Usually same habitat unless outside grouse range. And the average shot on woodcock is 25%. I shoot much better, but wouldn't call that easy. Woodcock don't always whislte, either and the flush of a grouse is just as good (better) to track and follow. I know a lot of people complain on here and up north about not finding woodcock and how tough they are to shoot. I have areas I hunt woodcock that are easy and some that are so thick it can be impossible to shoot.

I like eating them, too. Taste like dove.

[mountain grouser]

Let,s leave everyone to his own opinion. If we all liked the same things none of us could do anything. everything in god,s creation is amazing from a song sparrow to a ruffed grouse.

[uplandchessies]

Let,s leave everyone to his own opinion. If we all liked the same things none of us could do anything. everything in god,s creation is amazing from a song sparrow to a ruffed grouse.

Has nothing to do with opinion. Western ruffs are dumb. Fact. Even if they receive pressure they're not as challenging as the eastern ruffs. And there are others birds more challenging that many haven't hunted. So I ask... how can ruff be king? How can someone make this statement without having all the facts?

[trust me]

I can only argue the "around here" debate because I've never gone and probably never will go west for the others. Too many younguns to feed and educate for the next xx years to indulge myself like that. A week each fall in Wisconsin is my big extravagance. Might make it 2 weeks this year if the finances hold out.

The homegrown doodles in Wisconsin are the same as the homegrown and the migrating ones I find here. I've addressed them already. The pen raised pheasant I've seen flew strong and far but were still about like shooting basketballs tossed in the air with no cover around to distract or soak up pellets.

As far as being in shape, I'll go out on a limb and say anybody not in good walking/climbing shape is not going to kill many birds in East Ky period, regardless of his favorite bird or dog breed. I hate going in the woods witlh a first timer who can't get up to the first bench without saying, "Go on without me...I can't make it." I usually will oblige them and go find the dog and kill the bird or at least take the shot, and tell them about it afterwards.

[uplandchessies]

I can only argue the "around here" debate because I've never gone and probably never will go west for the others. Too many younguns to feed and educate for the next xx years to indulge myself like that. A week each fall in Wisconsin is my big extravagance. Might make it 2 weeks this year if the finances hold out.

The homegrown doodles in Wisconsin are the same as the homegrown and the migrating ones I find here. I've addressed them already. The pen raised pheasant I've seen flew strong and far but were still about like shooting basketballs tossed in the air with no cover around to distract or soak up pellets.

As far as being in shape, I'll go out on a limb and say anybody not in good walking/climbing shape is not going to kill many birds in East Ky period, regardless of his favorite bird or dog breed. I hate going in the woods witlh a first timer who can't get up to the first bench without saying, "Go on without me...I can't make it." I usually will oblige them and go find the dog and kill the bird or at least take the shot, and tell them about it afterwards.

Point taken. But many want to debate grouse as king on a whole.

Extravagance? Just as you're passionate about ruff, I am about putting my dogs in other places for other birds. Like a kid in a candy store. I have always saved and nickled and dimed expenses to make these trips.

I agree you need to be in shape to hunt grouse in KY. But it's a whole different ballgame chasing chukar, pheasant, valley quail and desert quail at 5,000 ft and mountain quail, blues and ruffs 7,000 ft and above with flushers.

[hitch]

My dogs are flushers, but they will hold ("point") birds. Not like a pointer, but he (they) do lock up.

I have to disagree with you that flushers and grouse are a bad combo. They get in the thick stuff, we follow and birds end up in the bag. I will say it's not as easy hunting behind flushers. You have to be somewhat fit, trust the dog and keep pace. I think that's why many dislike hunting over flushers.

Now it switches to king around here. Usually when this debate starts it's the ruff is "king," period.

Woodcock the lazy mans bird? I think the hunt is the same for them and grouse. Usually same habitat unless outside grouse range. And the average shot on woodcock is 25%. I shoot much better, but wouldn't call that easy. Woodcock don't always whislte, either and the flush of a grouse is just as good (better) to track and follow. I know a lot of people complain on here and up north about not finding woodcock and how tough they are to shoot. I have areas I hunt woodcock that are easy and some that are so thick it can be impossible to shoot.

I like eating them, too. Taste like dove.

I will take the "fit" challenge with anyone you know or anyone else anyone else knows. I am 32 and am lean and mean, I have hunted these mountains my whole life and promise I have broken many peoples spirits on a grouse or turkey hunt more times then I care to remember. If my dog points it doesn't matter what it takes I am getting there and many times am not even winded. The places I hunt there is no room for being out of shape, that will get you killed or birdless. If you don't crawl once or twice a day because the terrain is so steep then you aren't Grouse hunting IMO.

The woodcock I encounter here are usually along reclaimed strip pits near pines or hemlocks and always seem to be on flat ground. I don't think I can recall ever finding one on steep terrain anywhere near a grouse. Heck the grouse won't even associate with them.:D

You have to keep pace with flushers because they get "birdie" over everything and there is no rhyme or reason to when the bird is coming up. From my perspective it is lunacy to climb these hills to be on pins and needles all day. But if you like it then have at it.

If woodcock are tough for folks to kill or they complain they must be horrendous Grouse shots. Plain and simple, if you can't hit a bird that flies straight lines or slow half circles 10 feet off the ground then good luck with one that flies much faster through cover rather then around it. Granted some Grouse choose the wrong path ( or right depending on where you are standing and your perspective) and get themselves out in the open. Those seem to be few and far between but are always welcomed and easier then anything, but often missed by me.

I am not going to get going on the whole pointing lab/retriever thing as that is something that I have been duped on in the past only to see flushing and no pointing. Pointing dogs point, flushing dogs flush, and retrievers retrieve. Sure they can all cross the line but are good at what hundreds of years of breeding has been focused on.

[hitch]

Point taken. But many want to debate grouse as king on a whole.

Extravagance? Just as you're passionate about ruff, I am about putting my dogs in other places for other birds. Like a kid in a candy store. I have always saved and nickled and dimed expenses to make these trips.

I agree you need to be in shape to hunt grouse in KY. But it's a whole different ballgame chasing chukar, pheasant, valley quail and desert quail at 5,000 ft and mountain quail, blues and ruffs 7,000 ft and above with flushers.

As long as you are happy that is what matters IMO.

I have never hunted Chukar but have fished in the canyon country where they live and can only imagine them being as brutal as it comes and probably the same for many of the other western birds other then pheasants or sage grouse.

I do not disagree with having to be fit to chase flushers after all they aren't going to wait for you to put the bird in the air.;)

[uplandchessies]

As long as you are happy that is what matters IMO.

I have never hunted Chukar but have fished in the canyon country where they live and can only imagine them being as brutal as it comes and probably the same for many of the other western birds other then pheasants or sage grouse.

I do not disagree with having to be fit to chase flushers after all they aren't going to wait for you to put the bird in the air.;)

Don't pick on sage grouse because they're big. :) I had days you couldn't get within rifle range.

[hitch]

Don't pick on sage grouse because they're big. :) I had days you couldn't get within rifle range.

Talk about nasty to eat. I remember a buddy of mine brought me home two once, worse crap I have ever eaten. And I have eaten some bad stuff, shovelers and mergansers to name a couple.

[uplandchessies]

You have to keep pace with flushers because they get "birdie" over everything and there is no rhyme or reason to when the bird is coming up. From my perspective it is lunacy to climb these hills to be on pins and needles all day. But if you like it then have at it.



You haven't hunted over good flushers. Read the dog... the body langauge and eyes. I think you're confusing controlled flushers over those that hunt for themselves. My dogs and I are a team.

[mountain grouser]

Upland chessies i find it interesting that you call a Grouse dumb.Enough said I,m with Hitch and i,m outta here. no use in disscussing anymore.Everyone has an opinion and you know whay they say their like.

[uplandchessies]

Upland chessies i find it interesting that you call a Grouse dumb.Enough said I,m with Hitch and i,m outta here. no use in disscussing anymore.Everyone has an opinion and you know whay they say their like.

I called the western ruff dumb. Have you hunted them... didn't think so.

Go and be with who you want. How can you form an opinion with half the equation? My so called opinion is based on factual observation from hunting ruffs in Oregon. Do a little reading and it's well documented that western ruffed grouse are dumb (uneducated from lack of pressure). Ask any big game hunters whom hunts out there.

[uplandchessies]

Talk about nasty to eat. I remember a buddy of mine brought me home two once, worse crap I have ever eaten. And I have eaten some bad stuff, shovelers and mergansers to name a couple.

I agree. Young of the year birds I hear are much better.

[uplandchessies]

I am not going to get going on the whole pointing lab/retriever thing as that is something that I have been duped on in the past only to see flushing and no pointing. Pointing dogs point, flushing dogs flush, and retrievers retrieve. Sure they can all cross the line but are good at what hundreds of years of breeding has been focused on.

I agree. If I wanted a pointer I'd have one. My dogs have always done it naturally and I see no need to break them of it. In thick covers it aids in giving us time for the shot.

[hitch]

As far as Grouse being dumb and big game hunters saying so, I can personally atest that even here in the southern Appalachins. During turkey season it isn't uncommon for a male to be standing in the middle of the road as if he is waiting for his toll fees before he moves.

In fact it seems in nature anything that isn't the targeted species can seem dumb until you are targeting them.

I have never hunted ruffs in Oregon so I have no basis to make a comparison.

This whole topic began with Southern Apps. birds and that is where it should stay. Turkeys out west are stupid as well, but here that is far from reality.

[Bee]

well ,this has not gotten real far in terms of fact finding since I left you yesterday. It is all about opinions. I have been lucky in my lifetime to take all species of quail in the US. This year I killed ruffs in the drainages to the gulf, the atlantic, the pacific and the James Bay(I think). Climbed a lot of Hells Canyon type stuf f after chuakar. Seen woodcock all over the eastern US. There are instances where any bird is easy prey for a dog and a gun. No matter where they live. There are other times when they are incredibly difficult. Each of us who has some experieince in the gunning area wil l adopt some species of dogs as a favorite. Take every day afield with your dog as a blessing and enjoy it ...for what it is worth a day with your dog i n the field is abut as good a mind enema as there is.

[mountain grouser]

How do you know what i,ve hunted upland chessies. I,VE hunted grouse for 25 years. Like i said earlier OPINION. Don,t measure my corn in your bushel.

[Roost em 1st]

This whole topic began with Southern Apps. birds and that is where it should stay. Turkeys out west are stupid as well, but here that is far from reality.

No, the whole conversation began with you challenging another man's signature line. He has defended it. Now you change the realm of things to fit your thoughts. Bravo, it's good to be king.