Split gun deer season.

[Xtreme]

There is discussion in place about splitting the gun deer season next year. Your thoughts folks?

[Multidigits]

The only reason they would geta way from traditional dates would be that they want more does killed. Thsi won't help. They need to set quotas on does in certain areas and work on the problem. Not screw up what they have. I'm against it.

[Birdman]

Me to. Two out of three, Multi we better watch this stuff.

[Highbow]

I agree and no more loss of bowhunting time either.

[Xtreme]

I don't care about the split season in areas that are proven to have a doe problem. These areas never post on here and raise hell about the things that some of us do that are against it totally.

Serious thought and planning must go into the management of our deer herd. "Shotgun" management is not going to cut it.

That is where input is critical not only from conventional means but on a more personal basis. Meaning COMMUNICATION with the sportsmen. Thats what we are about.

[ez]

leave as is.......maybe zoning/splitting some counties may help in the doe control.........ez

[Multidigits]

Can anybody pinpoint any data showing that a split season will increase the dead deer count, which is the aim here I'm sure. They want the effect of 2 "opening days" but I doubt the second one will be as effective as the first because of the timing of the rut. With less pressure in November, most of the does will be bred then and not in December?

[grouseguy]

As a small game hunter, I am completely opposed to a split deer gun season that would effectively take away an additional weekend from the small game seasons on the front end of the season, especially from those of us who pursue small game with dogs. As for grouse, Roy is already trying to take away February, and possibly January if he had the support, now they want to encroach on the front end of the small game season also.

[MrBowhunter]

I think KY is the perfect state to do what PA has done for a long time. Here in KY we have tons of small counties, several counties are in the same zone but over such a wide area. In PA. the counties are 4 to 8 times large. Doe permits are given away on a first come first serve basis. Certain counties in the southwest part of the state where the deer herd is outrageous, get 2 to 3 times more doe tags available than counties in the north central part of the state where the herd is much smaller and the winter harder.
So... why can't we do that here? No more buyinf an extra tag over the counter. In your hunting manual is an application that you have to send in to the courthouse of the county you plan to hunt does in. They receive the applications and send them out on a first come first serve basis. If you wait too long then you don't get a tag for doe that year and better try real hard on harvesting a buck if you want meat.

Has this ever been tried here? Do you think it's worth investigating. I think it will put less of a hit on areas where deer numbers are lower even though they may be in a higher zone.

[Multidigits]

Mr. Bowhunter--Thatwould require the Dept. to put in more time managing the deer herd than they want to do. They have a computer model that tells them how many deer they have and from there they calculate how many they want killed. It doesn't matter if those deer are in areas where they can't be hunted, you still supposed to kill X numbers of deer.

The real problem is that the number of deer hunter is a relativ estable number each year. Most folks are killing as many deer as they can use. They don't want any more. The Hunters for the Hungry program was a move in the right direction but nobody wants to pay $30 for something to give away.

[Highbow]

Leave the seasons as they are, don't part us as hunters anymore than they already have. If they want more does taken then make the tags cheaper or open the season on does through the remaining part of Jan and FEb for the bowhunters.

[GSP]

I am strongly against this.

[KYhunter]

Against

[taggedout]

Im with grouseguy and Highbow on this one, why they think its just fine to chop up everyone elses seasons never made since to me. Work the system already in place and give it time to work. Make modifications here and there till it evens out. Bowseasn is already chopped to pcss and when you bring it up they talk about our season like its already to long. thats definatly jumpn the gun!

Grummybear

[Ky Headhunter]

Against it. Largely because I don't think it would have much effect on the doe/buck harvest ratio. If it doesn't, what other positives are there, management wise? I don't see any.

I'm willing to hear out those in favor, but it'll take a DARN good, management based reason for me to consider supporting it. It'll be hard to outweigh the negatives (from my viewpoint, anyway)- more encroachment on bowhunting & small game seasons.

MrBowhunter, your idea certainly has merit, but for the reasons Multi brought up, I doubt it would even be seriously considered. I would like to see the KDFWR prove me wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

[Highbow]

Shogan, I don't know where you get these ideas but I can use a buck tag in any county in KY and a doe tag in any county, where is the problem?

[MULESKINNER]

Shogan,

HUH????????

[Highbow]

This is KENTUCKY not PA, we do things different.

[Xtreme]

I like that idea though. At least it has LIMITS, and is not
"shotgun" management.

[Multidigits]

"excellent herd, good quality not sure why everyone is down on KY's managment"--Shogan, I not sure how educated you are about Kentucky's deer herd and it's history. Or PA's for taht matter, because they have a large deer herd. Other states, including Indiana, dishes out doe tages in the same manner. You have an overall limit, and each county has a limit. Both are liberal enough for most people.

When you mention Kentucky's "management", if you knew the history of Kentucky's deer you might see things differently. A few years ago, under John Phillips, our herd seemed to be "managed" fine. The herd seemed to stay relatively stabile in size and the annual kill seemed adequete for the resourse. Not until he retired, did we start seeing the "estimated" population artificially inflated, in an effort to get the hunters to shoot more does. Keep in mind that hunter numbers have remained relatively stable, bag limits have risen to the point that you can kill more than you can use, seasons have lenghtened, BUT the over all kill and hunter success ratio has remained virtually the same.

The Departments management philosphy is that less is better. They went from telling us how many needed killed, and even predicting where and how many would be killed, to kill all you see, even if you don't want the meat. Zones have been changed and they will probably continue to do so. Today in Kentucky, the dept. does not manage the herd on iota, the hunters do. They make the management choice when, if and how many they kill because the have "unlimited" tags to do so.
The problem is, the problem areas are not getting better, and the under populated areas are getting worse. Deer won't travel across county to an area where they can make some meat for some lucky hunter.

[Xtreme]

Ever heard of Peristroyka Shogan<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Xtreme]

In the general language of Soviet Russia, not to be confused with their many different dialects in their 11 different time zones it means REFORM.

Put your heart in the USA or get your A$$ out.

You are an educated man I presume, you will understand the term "check"......Your move<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[ky_great_white_bowhunter]

The problem is that there is a lot of irresponsible hunters out there and control is a very important part of healthy herd management. Without control there is confusion, and with confusion comes disorder. And everyone know what happens with disorder, nothing ever gets done. And that is why we have control. And that is the success in management. CONTROL. And this herd management that I speak of will only come from the responsible hunters and the government. And if the responsible hunters feel like the government is in everyones business, that is because they are in everyones business, that is there job. There job is to also try new ways of deer pop. management. We the hunters should look at it as, we have someone else on are side trying to improve the sport that we enjoy. So what if we try some bad management practices. No body is perfect!! If it does not work trust me they will find new ways of management. Hey if you want to be actively involved with the way you think deer pop is being handled address the issue to the fish and wildlife guys. I am sure they will be more than happy to here you out. If any thing we should be grateful they are trying new ways of deer management. Rome was not built in a day!!!!

[Multidigits]

Great White-One or two years of a county being zoned wrong will have drastic results, that take two or three times as long for the deer herd to recover. For an example, look at Hancock Co. or Butler Co., both ex-Zone 1 counties with great deer hunting and trophy potential. See what they have now, in terms of oppurtunity.

Shogan-There are no areas in Kentucky that suffer from lack of food or habitat. It's not a factor, but unlimited tags can be. It's not that it's the unlimited tags that are a problem as much as the mindset that it creates. Most people that are happy with the status quo hunt Zone 1 counties and probably in areas of those counties that have pockets of high deer numbers. Take a trip out of those zones and see what the other half looks like.

Government control and the Fish and Wildlife Dept. setting realistic goals BASED on true numbers, instead of flawed computer estimates are not comparable. Government control is what they have in Red China, Good management is what we had in the pre-Gassett eras.

[MULESKINNER]

Greatwhite,
It is NOT the governments job to be in everyones business.
I repeat...It is NOT the governments job to be in everyones business.
You and Tom Daschle might say it is but it's not. Read the constitution.

Rome is built, and we live there. It's called Kentucky...one of the best deer hunting states in the world.

"So what if we try some bad management practices. Nobody is perfect!!"
Sounds like a guy I know who used to sleep at his desk 45 minutes a day. That line of thinking breeds failure (or liberals).

Trial and error is not CONTROL!!


L A T E R . . .

[shogan]

Think I've found my long lost brother in Hunting

((Sheww I'm not alone))

[ky_great_white_bowhunter]

Hate to break it to you fellas, but we live in a society we government controls everything. We all know this, now admitting it is two different things. Sure we have our say, but they have control over what actually happens. Is it right, NO. But we have to work with what is there. And quaility control practices will only come from us working with the government. This will happen by letting the people in control know what is wrong with the way things are going. This in it's self is trial and error. We the hunters have tried the hunting part and hopefully we will report the errors to the people that count, the governement. You get herd control through trial and error. How do we know that practices that are now in effect are going to effect huntings future?(i.e. unlimited does)We don't know, we can guess but we don't know. I would like to think that this practice will fall under trial and error. People might say this may be good management or they might say bad management. But it come down to trial and error. It happens everywhere, even in every day life. Any time one thing is tried out and does not work, and something else is, it is called trial and error. The only way to find the best control practices is trial and error. This will continue for as long as we hunt. Like it or not.

[Xtreme]

Shogan, if you claim him [G.W.B.H.] as a brother then that would mean you would be kin to me. He is my nephew.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> It's easy to tell my influence on him over the years as he tends to speak in riddles at times<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Mule what he is trying to say I think is that as long as the people are supposedly governed by the people then human err will factor. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes.

It's hard to correct a flaw in a situation that is under dictatorship i.e. Nazi Germany, the old Soviet Union, Red China etc.

G.W.B.H. is a devout sportsmen and is a student at Morehead working on a biology degree. May God help me....my nephew a biologist. I bet CSS is rolling in the floor. When Great White is not getting his brain expanded in college he is a fire fighter for the National Forest Service. He just got back from the Cascades as a matter of fact.

Hang in there old nephew and if at times you appear to be a pain in the butt you have an excuse.....Look who helped raise you<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[shogan]

I was gonna say somthing about how we create a controlling government by pushing them to get in to other peoples business thinking it won't ultimately effect us. But I remembered I just want to be a happy hunter so I refrained.

[Multidigits]

The trial and error days of deer management are long gone. There's not an animal in this continent that's been more closely studied as the white tailed deer. The Dept. might be more successful if they studied psycology than deer management 101. They want more deer killed, they need to find out way the number of hunters that we have aren't doing it.

[shogan]

Are you Uncle X. Daddy done told me so much about you! Sorry to hear about the little gang rape incident in prison.

Whoops I read your message again. No it was muleskinner to whom my breathern was aligned. His thinking is right up my alley. I guess your not Uncle X.

[GSP]

K_W_B_H
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Hate to break it to you fellas, but we live in a society we(re) government controls everything<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

You are in a great position to help change this great wrong doing. We are a nation, controlled only by a Constitution that says, "a goverment of the people, by the people".

Meaning, people control the goverment. I know this sounds corny in todays world. But, you take 25 dedicated people and you can make a difference. Ask your uncle Rick sometime!

[MULESKINNER]

I think I may need to repeat this:
It is not the governments job to be in everyones business!

They may be in our business in a lot of ways and we accept it depending on the severity and intrusion. In a lot of ways they are in our business for national security, and the general advancement of the countrys welfare. Ways that only help. &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;B U T&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; it is not their job to be in everyones business!

When we accept a blanket statement like that we give ourselves collectively over to an idea our forefathers faught so hard to abolish. And damn well did! (by the way...it started with a VERY small group of educated gentlemen).

Just because in some ways they are in our business does not make that okay. Why become complacent with the fact that our Government thinks we can't take care of ourselves.

If they came to your house and took your guns or bows would you say "We have to work with what is there" or We need to admit that "they have control over what actually happens"?

You said the government controls everything and we need to admit it.
Hate to break it to ya fella, but THEY DON"T! WE DO!
Lobbying, voting, contributing time and money. This is America not Cuba, last time I checked. You could be the next mayor of your town!
The next judge executive, etc... Not because big brother says, but because the PEOPLE vote.

I really don't want to get into a political idealogical debate and prove the benifits of capitalism and democracy over socialism and communism, but it sounds like maybe you could benifit from reading YOUR constitution.
Uncle Ted could teach ya a thing or two.

Nuke a gay whale.

I'm out.

[MULESKINNER]

Oh brother, where art thou?

Shogan,
I kept looking at your restraint on your last post and keep wondering...when will I be able to do that?
I guess I'll get my block knocked off sooner or later.

L A T E R . . .

[shogan]

I"m proud to be an American and Kentuckian once again. Muleskinner thank you for standing up.

As to my restraint, Well I was spending to much time in a game of verbal fencing. It was getting to be like having an affair with a pysco women (it's not that great and your always sorry you did afterwards but it's so easy you keep going back for more).

[shogan]

and here here GSP

[Multidigits]

A "little bit" of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[Ralph]

Multi, if I may add a point. I think it would be good to note that the goal here (for KDFWR) is to manage the " social" carrying capacity, not the environmental carrying capacity. I believe they manage depending on the road kill statistics & how that ties in with the traffic volume of an area. I think that KDFWR will admit that "social carrying capacity" carries more weight than other factors in managing the deer numbers. Having said that, I would ask why not move the General Gun Season back after Thanksgiving? December would be nice:)

[rlb165]

Ralph, it's good to see you "over here"!!

I believe you're right about the "social" vs. "environmental" carrying capacity. As I remember it, Zone 1 MAY mean herd is estimated at 30 deer per sq. mile, OR it may indicate a certain # of deer/vehicle collisions, and/or a certain # of crop damage complaints.

For example, I've been told by someone that should know, that my county (Hardin) is actually a Zone 1 based on only 20 deer per square mile and 300 deer/vehicle collisions per year. So, in effect, I65, Bluegrass Pkwy, Western KY Pkwy, Dixie Hwy, US62 and Ring Road (an industrial road with many factories, new businesses, etc. that kind of makes a half-circle close to E-town's perimeter), play as big a role in Hardin County's Zone designation as the actual herd size.


Richard

I THINK Zones 2~4 are actually based on deer #'s only, but I'm not 100% sure.




Edited by - rlb165 on 08/31/2002 10:50:01 PM

[Multidigits]

The road kill number is an estimate, not an actual count. Those days are gone. The evidence is if someone actually came out and counted them(buck or doe), surely they would drag the hapless critter out of the road. As it is, they lay there till the cars beat the hide off of them.

Ralph--your post indicates you believe the dept. policy is a sound one, then what advantage would it be to move the season away from the rut. This, would only reduce the kill not increase it, which is what the dept. wants.

[rlb165]

Multi, when I talked to our commish. about this, he told me they had GPS coordinates for the accidents. In the case of the 300 for Hardin county, I don't know if they had the coordinates for all 300, or that was an estimate based on actual accident reports. Also, I wonder if the GPS coordinates come from police reports, or the mere sighting of the down deer by F&W personnel.

I brought this up last year, about the time of the format change, but I've been curious about something. Since last year's lower-than-anticipated-harvest was blamed on the warm weather, it seems like there would have been a major spike in the # of NIGHTTIME deer/vehicle collisions during the rut, for last year. (compared to the # of NIGHTTIME deer/vehicle collisions of previous years). Does that make sense? Decreased movement in the daytime 'cause of the heat would lead to increased rutting activity at night? Wouldn't that make for more accidents at night? This would make interesting reading, if anybody keeps track of it.

[Multidigits]

RLB--I know for a fact that that horse shi*. Last year I was on the way to Brandenburg and traveling down Highway 448. On the way back home, I happened to be behind our county CO. Traveling near my house, there were 2 deer dead on the side of the road, You had to swerve to miss the one. The other was off the road a ways. You couldn't tell if the were bucks or does because of the way they were laying and the amount of damage to the one in the road. Tha CO never even slowed. He couldn't have got a lock on his GPS unless he had it on in his vehicle, which I doubt. I don't believe they do anything other then monitor the insurance claims. In fact, they probably get the number from the insurance lobby???

Exellant point on the last part of your post. I agree.

[Xtreme]

I've heard the same thing Richard. When you call to inquire why a county is still zone 1 you hear "well the car hits aren't down"!

Good post.....Rick.

[rlb165]

I wish now I'd thought to ask him where the info. came from. When he told me they had GPS coordinates, I was surprised, and then mostly curious as to how many accidents there were in the South part of the county compared to the North. He seemed to be reading the road names from a report or map as we were talking. I guess I just assumed by that that the info. came from accident reports.

As far as the insurance thing, I haven't found anything that shows the total # of accidents for each state, but I THINK that KY has fewer of them per capita than most other states in this part of the country.



The only insurance-related thing I've ever read was for PA. It was something like either Farm Bureau or a coalition of Insurance Companies was threatening to sue the State Legislature to take control of the deer herd away from PA Game Commission (I think that's what it's called.)if they didn't bring the herd size down.

[Multidigits]

So, we manage by roadkills, that go up depending on the stle of roads and how many cars are passing through the county. The busier the raod, the more does you can kill. Am still against it.

[GSP]

There was an article in the Lexington-Hearld today. The split-gun season was mentioned for zone 1&2.

Also, they mention of "not devaluing" the does! Has this been discussed in other circles? I've really only seen it here. Did we just make the paper?

[Xtreme]

I would say that we as an organization are being taken serious as well as some of the discussions.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

[rlb165]

Multi, I can't say that I'm for or against Zoning by roadkill #'s, I can kinda understand the reasoning to a point. To me it comes back to the communication thing though. I wish the Zone criteria was posted somewhere, or maybe in the Hunting Guide. This is PURE SPECULATION on my part, but I can't help but think that the Dept. feels that being Zone 1 to protect the habitat would encourage the taking of does more so than being Zone 1 because of car crashes. On the other hand, its getting late, and I am very sleepy.

[rlb165]

GSP, I found the Herald-Leader article. Here is one paragraph:

"It’s purely speculation but perhaps the deer harvest would have been higher if the weather hadn’t been as cool and more hunters were afield. Deer tag sales decreased by 3 percent, in part because of a price increase from $21 to $25."

OK, the "cool weather thing" is a simple mistake, but honestly, do any of you know anybody who didn't buy a tag because of a $4 price increase?

I don't mean to be insulting if anybody DID sit out over 4 dollars, its just hard to imagine giving up a whole season for it.

[CSS archer]

A county is considered for zone 1 status when it reaches 30+ deer per square mile. Roadkills are simply trends. When a population reaches 30 deer per square mile, habitat is starting to be negatively impacted. It's not unusual for a county to have 60 deer/sq. mi. in one part and 15 deer/sq.mi. in another.

[Multidigits]

CSS--If a portion of a county has 30+ deer per square mile, does that alone make it a Zone 1 or does this need to be a majority of the county has this many deer. For example, say 20% of the county has 35deer per square mile and 80% of the county has 10 deer per square mile does this county still get a Zone 1????

Why not Zone off the low end instead of zoning off the higher number?

How often are spot light surveys done and where can we find out the results of these surveys?

[KYhunter]

rlb makes an excellent point. "How many hunters sat out because of $4." The 3% number would be around 8100 hunters. I also doubt that many of those 8100 would be what one could call highly skilled enough to take their share of deer.(If there were, then the 4 dollars would not have prevented them from buying a tag). I too, would like to know if ANYONE that visits this site knows of ONE PERSON that did not hunt because they raised the price 4 dollars.

Thanks CSS for giving us "the" number to what makes a zone 1 a zone 1.

[rlb165]

OK, the family is over at her parents, lucky for ya'll I can tell the whole story now!! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>.

When I got the new Hunting Guide last year, I saw on the "County Map and Zones" map that Grayson and Hart counties had been dropped down to Zone 3. This interested me, because by that map, I am about 1/16 of an inch from both these counties-I'm in SW corner of Hardin.

I posted a question, called something like "Zone Criteria" in the F&W Q&A forum. It went unanswered.

After a few days, I called the Dept. and asked the person I spoke with how many deer per square mile the herd was estimated at for each Zone. The person said that there was more to it than simple deer #'s, there were other factors involved.

I asked what the other factors were. The person then asked for my address, and said they would mail me the criteria. They said the most recent they had was for 2000.

Reading from that inforamation:

Zone 1-Reduction
(&gt;30 deer/sq. mi.; &gt;15% female increase; &gt;10 crop damage complaints; &gt;50 auto collisions)

-Season dates are given-

Zone 2-Stabilize
(20-30 deer/sq. mi.)

-Season dates are given-

Zone 3-Slow Growth
(12-20 deer/sq. mi.)

-Season dates are given-

Zone 4-Rapid Growth
(&gt;12 deer/sq. mi.)

-Season dates are given-

Obviously, all I am going by is this one form from the Dept. so I can't say for sure that this is policy. I can also say though, that I've spoken with our current and previous commissioner, and both of them have mentioned roadkills as being the main reason for Hardin county being Zone 1.

[Ralph]

Multi, you asked me to be a little more specific on my reason for the moving of the gun season. I can only say that I am not a biologist so what I say is my own. I hunt OH ever year. They run their gun season after the rut. The experience is much more enjoyable for a bowhunter. It seems to work very well for the gun hunters also. When I can get to OH before the first of December I go every chance I get until I am successful. I look at everything from the bowhunters view, as that is the only way I hunt. Nothing against gun-hunters, etc. but OH seems to have a much better handle on things as far as deer management. There isn't a bowhunter in KY that will tell you they don't have dreams about hunting undisturbed bucks during the rut. OH gets the number of deer taken that they need or they do something to change it. They also have 4 state-wide meetings every year to get the hunters input:)Boy, that's scary stuff, isn't it? As for the "social" carrying capacity, I wasn't the one that coined the word. Never heard it until I started going to the Commissioners meetings in Frankfort & heard our F&W people mention it. At one time I also had an article from Farm Bureau about how they wanted the herd reduced for insurance purposes. They didn't hide the fact a few years ago. Why should anyone else? Bottom line is that the herd was over-protected for too long & now it's the hunter's fault & he has to fix it. I see the same thing happening with the turkey population but they appear to be moving a little faster on that one. Social carrying capacity is what the hunter needs to understand. Get that & you have it all. Alas, the effect of two "Opening Day Weekends" will probably get more interest from the gun-hunting community. I am undecided on that one. Time will tell if there are more does killed because of the "other" opening day but I think there will be. They will try it anyway.

[Multidigits]

Ralph--Do you hunt with a bow or crossbow when your in Ohio????<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

[KYhunter]

Ralph- years ago I went to Frankfort with the very same proposal. They shot me down like a bird on a wire! Their reasons were: Afraid all the big and best bucks would be poached before legally harvested.

Temperature too cold for the hunters.

Wanted to hunt during what they believed to be "peak" rut.

Earlier hunts have more hunters "enthused" about the hunt.

More hunters meant more tags sold.

Did not want to impact small game season.

Some bucks would have already lost their racks and may be harvested for a "doe".

They had a couple more, but age has erased them from me.

Multi- I think the number of crossbows used in Ohio may be overstated. I asked my brother-in-law to ask around about the hunters he knows of. Out of 26 bowhunters he knows, only 2 used a crossbow(one was an older fella). Also of note, they only use shotguns during their gunseason. I also believe they have MORE hunters than we do, but I could be wrong on that. They have a pretty interesting website last time I checked.

[Multidigits]

Yes they have more hunters and the terrain is flatter, as a whole.

As for croosbows, somebodies shooting them 'cause they killed over 19,945 with them last year, and 14,395 with "long" bows as they call them for a total "archery kill" of 34,340.

They have about 500,000 hunters statewide and anually kill about 150-160,000 deer.



Edited by - Multidigits on 09/02/2002 2:16:23 PM

[KYhunter]

After looking at their website again, I was surprised by those crossbow numbers. I know that they do a lot more deer driving than we in Ky do and more "gang" hunting as well. I'd love to see the gun season moved to Dec, but that I must admit it is probably for selfish reasons. I also feel certain the Dept. would be opposed to it.

[Ralph]

As I said Multi, I only bowhunt. When I answer questions about my hunting my train of thought is in KY. I bowhunt with a compound. The guys I go with all hunt with compounds. I have some friends that hunt with crossbows. Some of them go to OH specifically for that reason. I see nothing wrong with that. I have a friend that was physically unable to draw his bow for a couple of years & he got a crossbow with a cocking lever & hunted with it for a season. I didn't have a problem with that. I have two brother-in-laws that hunt with crossbows because of physical limitations. All of the above mentioned are primarily gun-hunters except for the first one. When he was able to pull a bow again he hung the crossbow up. I had a crossbow until last year when my one brother-in-law needed it to hunt. I sold it to him. I have not killed a deer with a crossbow, but if I was unable to use a hand-drawn bow (and I thought that might be the case this year)I would not hesitate. That is my opinion. I know the OH numbers & I also know that the switch is on to compounds after a few seasons hunting with a crossbow. That part I find very interesting. If you go to Bass Pro Shop, located North of Cincinnati, & talk to the guys shopping in there you would be amazed at the number of guys that are crossbow hunters & making the switch. No pressure to do so other than they want to. Most say it was too easy with the crossbow so they are looking for that next level of difficulty & dedication. Multi, do you bowhunt?

[Multidigits]

Sure do....Since 1965, when I killed a slick head at Ft. Knox. I was 12 years old. Now, I hunt with what ever is in season, but at one time I mainly only bowhunted because I didn't have any place to go during gun season. I would always take that week and the one before as vacation and hunt Ft. Knox. Back then they would run through the gun season. I have killed deer with every legal weapon allowed in Kentucky except a crossbow, that's because I don't have one. You guys keep up the good effort and it will save me the $500+ that the good ones go for.

We'll have to agree to disagree that a split season would add to the kill. I believe it would be a lot lower, due to December being taken by "other interests", such as duck and geese, and small game. Plus the secondary rut will not be nearly as defined. A quick look at what the late muzzleloader season brings in will tell the tale.

I'm against it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The reason folks don't kill more does is not because of oppurtunity, it's because of freezer space and the $30 charge for the HFH program.

[KYhunter]

1st off- congrats to both Ralph and Multi for being able converse without getting out of hand. Hats off to both of ya and welcome to the foray Ralph!
As for the split season- I guess I could go either way. I would be for it IF it would help the Dept reduce the doe population to the "desired" level, but figure Multi may be on to something about folks having other interests AND believe he is RIGHT ON about the reason most hunters fail to take more does.

[Xtreme]

Boy I'll second that as well there Ky hunter! I was holding my breath for a second there though! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Yes Multi and Ralph can and do converse in a civil manner and it's indicateive of the quality of folks in this organization and their desire for the continuation of what we all love.

Most of the officers and members so far are folks who have and do wear several"hats". It's hard not to respect these guys even when they don't sing your song. If it were not for the few of us who stand up and take the heat just think where we would be as a whole.

Multi for sure has demonstrated his desire to play the game on a higher plataeu as has Ralph. To be an officer in an organization takes great sacrifice and they each are and do both.

[GSP]

As for the split-season. Yesterday, the dept released an article in the Lex H-L stating they wanted split season in Zones 1 & 2 (which is 90% of the state). Look at this years calendar. If you start season 1 Nov. 9 thru Nov.15. Turkey season Nov. 16 thru Nov.24, take a break Nov 25- Nov 29, season 2 Nov 30-Dec 8th, lay off Dec 9-14. Blackpower Dec 15- 21st?????????
Let's see, that leaves Jan. to small game hunt?
They are wanting to tie up from Nov 9th thru Dec 14 with deer gun hunting and turkey hunting. Wait a damn minute folks. I'm sorry if I offened anyone, but zone 2 only has a set amount of does that can be taken and as for zone 1, unlimited does. Folks, if you can't kill a doe in 14 straight days with a high-powered rifle or 7 days with a scoped in-line muzzleloader, it ain't the deers fault. You don't know how to hunt!
I didn't mean to step on too many toes, but kicking the small game hunter off the map is BS! I grew up in a family the small game hunting thur Nov was a gret tradition. Now it seems to be a memory.....

[CSS archer]

It's much easier to grow a deer herd than it is to reduce one. I expect many "trial and error" approaches to accomplish those goals. I don't know of any state succesful in reducing deer, there may be, i'm just not aware.

John Phillips had the glory of the KY deer herds. The Day has come (no pun intended) where the reality that wildlife management is indeed people or hunter management is realized.

I'm heading to CO this week guys, you may not here from me for a while, so don't let Extreme wear me out too bad!

[Xtreme]

Well Rick A. I have to say I sympathise totaly. The problem is getting to be that we have more animals and weapon choices than we have winter months. I owned coon hounds and beagles for 20 years. I still beagle hunt some. Hardin co. just got so populated that it was not fun any more treeing in someones back yard or avoiding roads.

Haveing said that my greatest fear since the deer and small game season have intermingled has been that some fool would shoot my dog thinking it was a "trash runner". Like it or not we are fast approaching the day when most seasons will come in at nearly the same time and it will be a free for all.

This thought scares the hell out of me as I have hunted nearly everything in this state and I fully understand that " to all things, there is a season". Our greatest challenges lie ahead!

[GSP]

X, I know there is no easy answer. It seems that the hunters have shot all the does they want. Also I know it takes more than 3 data points on a chart to show a trend.
Why not do away with early muzzleloader and have a 2 day rifle / does only? Hey, more does killed, bucks left alone, better rut because fewer does?
I see hunters only taking so many does. After awhile, what do you do with them?

[MULESKINNER]

X,
In 1998 one of my walkers was shot during deer season. He didn't run trash.

I am also opposed to anything that would infringe on the small game hunter. Sometimes (especially in KY) its easy to forget about everything except deer and turkey. I'm sure most everybody here has hunted small game though.
L A T E R . . .

[Multidigits]

Fella's--moving the season won't help nothing. The lack of oppurtunity for most of us wasn't a problem. People will only kill what they need.And most people are not going to drop deer off at $30 a pop. If they do, it wouldn't be more than one or two. So, the only solution, as I see it is to have a "free" drop area in each county. I smart enough to know it won't happen, but here's how it would work. The reason why it won't happen is because it would require a bit of set up time for the Dept. and I don't believe they would go for it.

The county jail will be the drop of place. There, the trustee inmates will skin and debone each one and process the meat into burger. The meat is packaged in not for sale wrappers, just like govn. cheese. The meat then is distrubted to nursing homes, schools, and other publiclly funded institutions. Any left over could be given to the public. Everybody benefits. Inmates learn a trade, folks in need get free meat, and the state government saves money. Fish and Wildlife quits bitching about having a million deer and preaching "shoot more does". School kids learn that deer burgers and deer chile tastes damn good and they might grow up to be hunters. Case closed!

All other efforts will fail, just like CSS says. Other sates have tried everything that the dept. wants us to do, and it hasn't worked. what makes 'em think it's going to work here?

[Xtreme]

I hear ya Mule. Whenever I hear a deer hunter claim that they will shoot a dog just because they THINK /ASSUME it's up to no good I nearly explode! Not only will a possibly valuable gun dog be needlessly harmed or killed it could be the little kid next doors much loved pet. Either way, what message does that send out?

[Xtreme]

Multi's idea has merit and makes good sense but in anything regardeing the public and food where will regulations such as the Health Dept. come in?

Also what happens if CWD striked Ky?

[Valley Station]

I keep hearing "It's easier to grow a deer herd than it is to reduce one". Why has it taken fifty ( 50 + ) to reach this level in Kentucky?
Why do some areas have high deer densities?? It doesn't take a six-year degree to figure this one out. If we want to solve the "problem spots", someone has to determine what the "problem is".
PROBLEM IS - i.e.:
1) i.e.-In Jefferson county, Zone 1 , we have lots of people and lots of deer. High number of deer/car collisions.
There are large tracts of public or municipality owned property that is CLOSED to all hunting - MSD, LG&E, Jefferson County Forest (6 or 8,000 acres).
Solutions -
1)F&W and citizens need to encourage "stewarts" of property to open these areas to deer harvest.
2) F&W to look at some suburban areas to be open to ARCHERY ONLY and enforce it.

F&W needs to start program that would identify landowners with to many deer, that needs additional harvest. Ever ask a C.O. about land owners in their county with to many deer?? They "clam up" , its against dept. policy.
I know taxidermist and deer processors would not like it, but, we need to teach "new hunters' how to process their own deer. There would be a lot more deer taken , if , it didn't cost $60.00 to process a 50 lb. deer!! Are there any clubs or is F&W teaching game processing?? Anybody got any good videos on deer processing??

[Multidigits]

I hate to say it, but anybody that takes a deer to a processer is pretty stupid, in my opinion. Maybe sometimes time or other things such as hot weather play a part, but anybody can cut up a deer if they want to.

Just skin it, and take the back straps off. cut a few nice roasts of the hind end and bone and grind the rest. Throw away all the fat and blood shot meat and the lower leg meat. If it's too tough for steaks, you don't want to gind it either. Freeze everything as a roast. When you thaw it out, you can decide while your cleaning up the fat if you want a steak or roast. The only parts that I save for steaks are the backstraps. If you want more steaks then go kill more deer. The burger will last a year and makes good chili, or you can grind in some beef or pork fat and make meat loaf or burgers or sausage. If you can gut it in the field, you can butcher it at home.

Damn...I had to come back and edit this because I almost forgot the tenderloins on the inside of the cavity. Take 'em out and soak them for a while and cook em for supper as your reward for making some meat.



Edited by - Multidigits on 09/03/2002 11:06:03 AM

[Valley Station]

Some are too lazy , some are a "little slow to learn" , but , most just don't know. Some look at the standard "beef cuts" at butcher shop and throw their hands up , thinking it's to difficult.
There is very little good information out on "deboning a deer" and the major roast cuts.
I guess you, also, run into "hunters??" in your "area" that don't pack a knife and don't even know how to "field dress" their deer.
We as an "outdoor family" need to do a better job in teaching those that don't know! The real question is how best "TO PASS IT ON"??

[Birdman]

Rick I have sent you a copy of a show I don't a few years ago, let me know your opinion on this subject after viewing.

The reason for the split season is to raise more money, that's it in a nut shell. This statement came out in our last commission meeting. Walt was there ask him if you have any dought.

[Highbow]

THanks Birdman, you beat me to that one, remember fellows they are working under the State Tourism Director, split the season and get more hunters back on a second weekend, more trips, hotel, motel &lt; MONEY!

[Xtreme]

I don't doubt you Ronnie. I hated it that I was not there but I fully intend to be at the next meeting.

[MULESKINNER]

Multi,
I like everything about your idea except the part about putting butcher knives in the hands of convicts <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>
Didn't you watch sesamie street? Remember the skit "which one of these things was made for the other. Wich one of these things does not belong?" <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
L A T E R . . .

[Multidigits]

If a inmate was going to try and kill you, would you rather he try to do while under armed guard inside the facility or with a garbage truck 30 miles from jail. In Meade County we have them driving the garbage trucks and tipping trash. i believe it would a risk worth taking and easily managed. No, you wouldn't want Charlie anson or OJ in there cutting meat, but some others would do just fine, especially with a jail guard standing there with a 12 ga.

[ky_great_white_bowhunter]

The inmates at the Hardin County jail cook the food, while I was in Califonia fighting fires, the inmates of the prisions were at fire camps cooking food. I agree that we do not need knifes in the hands of killers, but the general population of inmates are not killers, they are in there for small things. I dont think it would hurt anything at all. But limit it to only hunting for the hungry, that away the regular processors will still have business.

[Ky Headhunter]

Hoowee, my head's spinning after reading this one through! Not that it takes much.

Interesting info on the Ohio crossbow/vertical bow numbers. Maybe it's a regional thing within the state. Used to talk bowhunting quite a bit when stationed near Dayton; those guys looked at me cross-eyed (no pun intended) when I pulled out my compound. "...so how do you cock that thing?" "...where's the safety?" I think they were kidding.

Valley Station, don't mean to scare you, but I'm thinking the same thing about the suburban deer problem. Can't kill what you aren't allowed to hunt.

Car/deer collisions must play a big part in the zoning criteria. Have never seen a browse line or malnourished deer in Campbell county (zone 1), but I sure see a lot of dead deer along the roads. If there are too many deer, it isn't due to lack of hunting pressure. Can't see where a split gun season would make much difference. They can split it into 20 one-day seasons, still wouldn't be anyone allowed to hunt the pet deer in all those nice subdivisions. Like putting a band-aid next to the cut instead of on it.

[Multidigits]

An Urban Deer solution is something that most states are now looking into. I remember Roy talking about it a few years ago, but nothing ever progressed on it.

Read CSS's statement that a Zone 1 can have 60 per sq. mile in one part and 15 in another. Day and Gassett seem to think that the deer in the 60 area will migrate to the 15 area when hunting season starts. Hasn't happened yet, has it???

[Ky Headhunter]

No Multi, not that I can see. Maybe it takes several years for that dispersal to happen, I don't know. Maybe putting some hunting pressure on the city deer will persuade them to move back into the country!

Of course it will be very difficult for KDFWR to get much cooperation on an urban deer hunting plan. Have to reverse many years of anti-hunting media propoganda, & stereotyping of hunters as cruel, ignorant slobs out to kill Bambi. Disney Darwinism, survival of the cutest.

[Multidigits]

Here's how. The Dept. designs a program and training class. This is not a 2 hour class designed for kids. You would be tested on the safety aspects of hunting and shooting the weapon of choice(usually a bow) in a urban setting. You would have to demonstrate that you are proficent with the weapon and can hit what you aim at. You would be required to know how to deal with anti-hunters and other that may attempt to interfer with your harvest objectives. You would then be Certified as a Specialist and eligble to participate in any deer reduction efforts and in anyplaces deemed appropriate by the Dept.

Then the Dept. protects you from liability by legislative action and by assuring that those certified are actually capable of doing what needs to be done. This would require Cities and towns to rely on Certified Hunters to be used if and when the Dept. says they need to be used. The Dept. is in charge of managing the wildlife, not some goofy bunch of anti-hunters.

If this works, you'd never hear the words "sharpshooters" and over-populated deer herds mentioned in the same paragraph.

[Xtreme]

If deer moved from one density to the other based on pressure RLB would be over run with deer. How bout it Richard? Are you over run yet?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[INKYHUNTER]

I have always been under the impression from what I have read that deer on their own don't disperse well. They have been known to starve with food available a short distance away. Not sure if this alway holds true.

[Rob]

Our deer herd is so diverse in density that I can't see any "One size fits all" management philosophy working. I would hate to see a split deer season where there are too few deer already. However, in my neck of the woods, I think it might be worth a try. I went for a drive one evening late last month & in less than an hour saw over 100 deer! I also saw a lot of crop destruction of soybeans. I know that there are many areas with too few deer but there are many areas with too many also. I would prefer that hunters be given the opportunity to hunt these deer & well as to have input to the KDFWR on the manner in which the deer are hunted. Somthing WILL be done about them, I prefer that hunters & the KDFWR does that somthing instead of the State Legislature!



Rob

[rlb165]

Good Post Rob! For some reason, it makes me feel better when you guys with too many deer show consideration for those of us what don't.[^]

Maybe somebody can show me the error(s) in my thinking, but I don't see how splitting season and/or adding days will help.

If you're in a low-density area, eventually you're gonna think, "If I have to spend THIS much time to kill a deer or two or three, maybe I don't want them thinned out here anymore".

If you're in a high-density area, seeing lots of deer, you probably ain't gonna need too many days to take all the deer you want/need. Of course, you could always hold out for a bigger buck, but still...

Anyone agree/disagree?

Richard

Oh yeah, Xtreme, I'm not overrun with deer just yet, but any day now........[;)]

[GSP]

You can bet the farm that the split season is not going away. The Dept is still banging their chest in hoping of a split season. The big reasons are 2. TOURISM & opening day efect.
I still have had no one answer this question. How many MORE deer do they think will be killed? We already have 100+ days of bow, 9 Muzzleloader, Youth rifle, crossbow, quota hunts everywhere, 14 rifle.
Bottom line is, who didn't get meat last year that wanted some?
Was the season the real reason?
I know that places are considering deer as 4 leg rats, but split season don't fix that.
In reply to the previous post, dozens of deer and major crop damage, how many of those farms open the doors to hunters?
We have around 275,000 deer hunters and only 100,000 killed???
I think people are already shooting only what they want.

[Xtreme]

I confess the tourism thing caught me for a loop. I thought the plan was to let them "calm down" so they could have a fresh go at em again. Kind of like 2 opening days instead of one.

This "tourism" thing is starting to smell. I'm hearing it mentioned more and more.

Sir Richard[rlb].....I do admire an optimist, I expect the deer to overun your position at any moment.[:o)]

[Rob]

I hadn't been out looking for deer in a while so took a quick drive at dusk just to confirm my previous experience wasn't a fluke. I was only gone from home for 30 minutes. Again, I saw well over 100 deer, over 50 in one recently cut corn field alone. Like it or not, there are places that have way too many deer & somthing will be done about it sooner or later. The big questions are going to be what will be done & by whom. I hope the answer will involve more hunting opportunities & the "whom" will be us hunters.



Rob

[GSP]

Rob, I am sure there are many places as you stated, where deer need to hunted heavy. You think the farm owners there will allow hunters? That is the solution. They can hold a deer season every other weekend, year round, but hunters must have access to the
"pockets" of deer problems to make a difference.

[FourSeasonsBowhunter]

A point on not hunting due to the $4 increase...the numbers (depending on how they are spinning them)may indicate that fewer tags overall were purchased (they equate that to fewer hunters). I purchased a bonus tag the year before, but not last year. Why? Because rarely do I take over two deer per year. Why waste my money? Some people may also not have stopped hunting, but with the continued mindset that "does don't matter", then why pay $10 for a tag?

Split season? IT does push way farther into small game seasons. Remember when most of us grew up hunting small game? That's how the young folks got their start. There are fewer hunters in general now because small game takes a hit. Also, hunting the second season of a split season would only cause more bucks to be taken because I think rifle hunters are more apt to be looking for another chance for that buck versus killing another and another and another doe. Doesn't that get old?

Valley Station has it right. In Campbell County the northern part of the county gets hunted very little and why? Because YOU CAN"T HUNT IN THE CITY LIMITS where all the deer are getting hit and where much of the traffic is. These Zones also assume that the deer numbers "estimated" are right...hmmm

Birdman also has it right...follow the money.

YOu know what? I think I get so tired of thinking about all this by the time the first gun season comes that...I'm going duck hunting. Honestly, this whole thing wears me out. Maybe that's why hunters aren't hunting anymore...we're tired of being told to kill, kill, kill when we don't see the deer numbers in our area there are "supposed" to be. There are multiple reasons, not just one, but I'm still going duck hunting.

[Birdman]

Fourseasons that's true with a lot of people, their worn out with all the controversy. Now wheather the dept. is at falt or hunters, or no one. A lot of people just say the hell with the changes and stop buying licenses. Wheather it's split seasons, the move from public land to private, shorter or longer seasons, or what ever it maybe. They just get tried. Most people just want to hunt as they did when they were kids, but with all the changes we've had in the last 10 or 12 years you can't do that.

[camo]

Fourseasons, I wouldn't be doing too much duck hunting!!! The season doesn't come in until the 28th!!!!!!!!![:0][:D]

[Highbow]

You know this tired stuff is just what might cause a lot of us to loose out on hunting rights. I think that is the idea, get us so tired of the fight that we give up. Honestly, I'm just looking forward to the opening of bow season to give me a little relief.

[Xtreme]

I'll just have to second that Nathan.

[rlb165]

This was in today's News Enterprise. I tried to get in online, but the sports section wouldn't work.

"Bow season for deer set to open." by Glenn S. Arney

The 2nd paragraph reads:

"The state white tail deer population is estimated at 850,000 animals, up from 750,000 last year. Hardin and Larue Counties have roughly 20 deer per square mile of land according to Jonathan Day, systems coordinator for the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources."