Automatic Rifle Cartridge

[Bray]

I have been bitten by the gun bug and I think we all know how that goes. I am going to get a Browning BAR Safari before they quit making them and am having to choose a Caliber. The fun comes in when trying to decide on the rifle cartridge. I have narrowed it down to the .308 and the .30-06. Ballistically they are close ( I don't really want to argue about ballistics they both will get the job done). MY question is is the .308 better suited for an automatic? I know when it was designed that was it's intended for use in the automatic. So lets hear your oppinions.

[trust me]

I wouldn't think one was more suited for auto than another. The 06 has been loaded in everything from the BAR to the 1917 to the Garand and it works. Same for the 308.

Ballistically they're nearly identical. It's just whichever one flips your trigger.

[AMR40509]

My dad's had a BAR in '06 since...probably the mid '70s. Been a great gun.

[KodiakJoe153]

If it was me I'd go 06. I'd love to own one.:cool:

[raven_over_easy]

ought six for me!!!

[Bray]

I own a Browning Abolt .30-06. I like it. What I am asking is if there is an advantage in owning a .308 in an automatic vs. the longer .30-06.

[steelslinger]

The answer is........NO, both have been chambered in autos, both preform well in autos.

I'm a .308 fan, never owned an 06. I don't really have anything against the 06.

The only advantage would be with heavier bullets 180+gr. Thats where the 06 takes over.

Unless you reload, then the .308 is a hair cheaper due to less powder, but not enough to really fret about.

Tough choice. Me, I'd go with the 08, but thats me and I'm not the one spending the $$.

The question is, what do you really want since the price is the same?

Don't even let the "08 is inherently accurate" thing go into this decision. Most ppl can't shoot at a benchrest champion level with a factory gun.....so the 08 being "more accurate" doesn't even come into play.

What ever you decide, you'll be happy with, both are great.

[westkybanded]

I own a Browning Abolt .30-06. I like it. What I am asking is if there is an advantage in owning a .308 in an automatic vs. the longer .30-06.

The ONLY thing I can think of may be that the .308's action may be a short one and the '06's a long one. That should translate to a faster cyclic rate for the .308.... If you want to pull the trigger that fast.

The 06' will probably be thought of as a more classic cartridge since almost everyone from 1900-now has been either issued one, bought one, gifted one, or wish they had one. The .308 is still an immensely popular round and you'll be able to find ammo for it anywhere in the world. Ballistically.... Not enough difference (especially with the BAR) to warrant a big debate.

[Hoosier5]

Both .308 and .30-06 are excellent cartridges, for any type action.

[trust me]

Well Bray, it's settled. You have to buy one of each.:)

[daking]

Time for a history lesson.

The 30/06 started life as the 30/03. It was designed for use in the 1903 Springfield, which was a reaction to the M98 Mauser that gave soldiers superior firepower to our 30/40 Krag used before the Springfield.

The 7x57 used in the Mauser used a (I believe) 165 grain bullet that stepped along pretty quickly. The 30/03 couldn't keep up, so the cartridge was changed a tiny bit, the Springfields were brought back to the Springfield Armory to have a barrel thread clipped off and rechambered for the new round. The new round used a (again if my memory is correct) a 170 grain bullet. This cartridge is the 30/06. In metric-speak, it's the 7.62 x 61. When Garand created "the finest battle inplement ever invented", it was chambered for the already produced 30/06.


In metric-speak, the .308 Win. is 7.62x54. It was created to use in the selective fire M14. The thought behind the change was a) that a shorter cartridge would cycle through a full-auto weapon better and b) to standardize with NATO countries.

While the cartridges are essentially the functional equivalent of each other, there are some differences:

The shorter .308 requires a shorter stroke in a self-loading weapon. As with any machine, the shorter the movement, the better. While the '06 is only 6 mm longer (about a quarter inch), it does require the weapon to cycle farther. The BAR is an extremely reliable, well built weapon. It will work well in either caliber. That being said, in the realm of theory (if not actual practice), the .308 has a slight edge.

Powder charges in the '06 do not fill the case. There is some head space between the bullet and the powder. The .308 is a compressed load of powder. The compressed load (generally speaking and in the realm of theory) ignites more consistently than the loose load of the 06. In terms of accuracy, give the slight edge to the .308.

Because of a slightly longer neck and case, the 06 will handle the heavier bullets. People routinely use 220 grainers in the 06, whereas the 308 is pretty well maxed out at 180. If bullet weight is important, the 06 has a slight advantage. Beware. Many 220 grain bullets have their base below the bottom of the neck in a 30/06. This causes some internal ballistic issues that can slightly affect accuracy.

This is all within the realm of theory. I've had experience with both a 06 and a 308 BAR. Both were tack-drivers. Both were reliable. Both brought Bambi to heel. There's not a whole lot of practical difference between the two and you'll likely be happy with either.

I would, however, get the .308 myself. I realize that its advantages are very small and largely more theory than discernable performance, but since it is slightly superior to the 30/06 in this application, I'd go for it. Why not get the best?

[Bray]

Time for a history lesson.

The 30/06 started life as the 30/03. It was designed for use in the 1903 Springfield, which was a reaction to the M98 Mauser that gave soldiers superior firepower to our 30/40 Krag used before the Springfield.

The 7x57 used in the Mauser used a (I believe) 165 grain bullet that stepped along pretty quickly. The 30/03 couldn't keep up, so the cartridge was changed a tiny bit, the Springfields were brought back to the Springfield Armory to have a barrel thread clipped off and rechambered for the new round. The new round used a (again if my memory is correct) a 170 grain bullet. This cartridge is the 30/06. In metric-speak, it's the 7.62 x 61. When Garand created "the finest battle inplement ever invented", it was chambered for the already produced 30/06.


In metric-speak, the .308 Win. is 7.62x54. It was created to use in the selective fire M14. The thought behind the change was a) that a shorter cartridge would cycle through a full-auto weapon better and b) to standardize with NATO countries.

While the cartridges are essentially the functional equivalent of each other, there are some differences:

The shorter .308 requires a shorter stroke in a self-loading weapon. As with any machine, the shorter the movement, the better. While the '06 is only 6 mm longer (about a quarter inch), it does require the weapon to cycle farther. The BAR is an extremely reliable, well built weapon. It will work well in either caliber. That being said, in the realm of theory (if not actual practice), the .308 has a slight edge.

Powder charges in the '06 do not fill the case. There is some head space between the bullet and the powder. The .308 is a compressed load of powder. The compressed load (generally speaking and in the realm of theory) ignites more consistently than the loose load of the 06. In terms of accuracy, give the slight edge to the .308.

Because of a slightly longer neck and case, the 06 will handle the heavier bullets. People routinely use 220 grainers in the 06, whereas the 308 is pretty well maxed out at 180. If bullet weight is important, the 06 has a slight advantage. Beware. Many 220 grain bullets have their base below the bottom of the neck in a 30/06. This causes some internal ballistic issues that can slightly affect accuracy.

This is all within the realm of theory. I've had experience with both a 06 and a 308 BAR. Both were tack-drivers. Both were reliable. Both brought Bambi to heel. There's not a whole lot of practical difference between the two and you'll likely be happy with either.

I would, however, get the .308 myself. I realize that its advantages are very small and largely more theory than discernable performance, but since it is slightly superior to the 30/06 in this application, I'd go for it. Why not get the best?

Thanks for the info very useful as usual. Ballistically I know they are the same and I don't really get caught up in the whole mumbo jumbo of arguing ballistics. I was just wondering if there would be a differance in autos. I own an Abolt .30-06 and it is a formidable round. I think I will go with the 08 just to add some spice to life. Of course there is always the new .270 wsm, lol.

[killinmammals]

all good info but the 308 is a 7.62x51. 7.62x54r is the rimmed russian round for the mossin nagants...which by the way are awesome guns...have 3 of them!!.....oh and i think the 30-06 is actually a 7.62x63(may be wrong on this one...haven't messed with 06s much)

[daking]

You are correct on both counts. My memory failed me on the case lengths. The advantage to the .308 is greater than I thought because it's about a half-inch shorter, which is an even shorter action.

[killinmammals]

Not tryin to make you look bad...I get stuff mixed up to, just didn't want another guy to go out and not know whats going on. The 308 was created to replace the 06 in full autos from what all I understand because, like you said, the shorter action, along with a couple other things..recoil being one from barrels jumpin in auto. Heck the original ar was a 308, then .222, then the .223 was created for the ar.

[daking]

Not at all. The motto of this board ought to be "we need to be right, but we need not try to be right alone"

[trust me]

An interesting minor point of trivia is that in the 30's Mr. Garand originally designed his rifle for a proprietary .276 (I think?) diameter round. It was the most efficient and reliable cartridge he could design for it. The army loved his rifle, but Gen. McArthur wanted it to use the 30-06 round because the army had such huge stocks of it on hand for use in the 03 Springfield. Thus, the 30-06 got a new lease on life and was paired up with the best battle implement ever devised. And now, 70 plus years later, the army has decided to go with a .277 projectile in their auto weapons. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

As stated, all the advantages of the 308 are in the realm of theory. Not many of us will go shoot moose or bear, where the 30-06 would handle the 180 grain or heavier bullets a little better.

[killinmammals]

An interesting minor point of trivia is that in the 30's Mr. Garand originally designed his rifle for a proprietary .276 (I think?) diameter round. It was the most efficient and reliable cartridge he could design for it. The army loved his rifle, but Gen. McArthur wanted it to use the 30-06 round because the army had such huge stocks of it on hand for use in the 03 Springfield. Thus, the 30-06 got a new lease on life and was paired up with the best battle implement ever devised. And now, 70 plus years later, the army has decided to go with a .277 projectile in their auto weapons. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

As stated, all the advantages of the 308 are in the realm of theory. Not many of us will go shoot moose or bear, where the 30-06 would handle the 180 grain or heavier bullets a little better.
Didn't know about that .276, I always just read or heard they used 06 because they had such a surplus, now I know!:D

[trust me]

Didn't know about that .276, I always just read or heard they used 06 because they had such a surplus, now I know!:D

I googled it up and found it was the .276 Pederson cartridge. Pederson was another genius in the field. He actually designed a bolt for the 03 Springfield that would turn it into a semiautomatic firing a small .30 caliber cartridge similar to the 9mm. It was intended to make the 03 a trench sweeper, like the Thompson.

[killinmammals]

I googled it up and found it was the .276 Pederson cartridge. Pederson was another genius in the field. He actually designed a bolt for the 03 Springfield that would turn it into a semiautomatic firing a small .30 caliber cartridge similar to the 9mm. It was intended to make the 03 a trench sweeper, like the Thompson.
Cool, I think I need a thompson with a 100 round drum. Everytime I have held one it kinda gave me that warm fuzzy feeling inside:D