too many does

[Matthews Hunter]

I have hunted 2 different weeks and have seen all does, minus 2 or 3 small bucks (spikes). The last few years it has been this way. We will see any where from 20-30 does an evening with no bucks. Then november comes and we kill a couple of decent bucks. Biggest was 140" 10 pointer. I just don't understand why we don't even see young buck during the early seasoon (sep. - oct.). We only have 150 acres so don't have many choices where to hunt. we usually kill about 5-10 does every year but that seems not to be enough. Just let me know your thoughts and if anyone else has that problem.

[ebfarmer]

I wish I had that problem.:D

[str8 shot]

why are you complaining for man...if you kill bucks every year whats there to complain about...alot and i mean alot of people would love to see 5 to 10 deer in a day much less 20 to 30

[Matthews Hunter]

I guess I only get to do certain times and is November the only time to hunt if you want to kill a buck. I have a place in georgia that i hunt in early season alot and see alot of small bucks all through out the season. I know the deer in kentukcy are alot better but what is the defference in seeing the bucks. Everyone was saying this weekend was supposed to be a good one for seeing bucks but all we saw were does. I saw 15 friday morning and shot 2 of those. I guess I was just thinking we would see some small bucks at least. I am not trying to sound greedy just trying to make the best of each season.

[Matthews Hunter]

Forgot to add! I refered to my watch about moon phases this weekend while hunting. It was almost scary how accurate it was. I bought it at wal-mart. I haven't hunted mid day much but shot a doe at 12:35 pm and prime time for friday was 12:50. Pretty crazy

[buckfever]

I have hunted 2 different weeks and have seen all does, minus 2 or 3 small bucks (spikes). The last few years it has been this way. We will see any where from 20-30 does an evening with no bucks. Then november comes and we kill a couple of decent bucks. Biggest was 140" 10 pointer. I just don't understand why we don't even see young buck during the early seasoon (sep. - oct.). We only have 150 acres so don't have many choices where to hunt. we usually kill about 5-10 does every year but that seems not to be enough. Just let me know your thoughts and if anyone else has that problem.

Shoot more does! If you're seeing 20-30 does on 150 acres, you need to be taking off at least 20 per year. And you probably ought to set up some sort of buck plan as well. With only 150 acres, you ought to set a 3 yr old, 130" minimum on your bucks. You probably shouldn't take more than 2-3 bucks a year ever.

We shoot about 25 does per year off of 600 acres, which is about 15 does less than what we ought to be shooting. We typically shoot 2-3 bucks per year.

Every year, our bucks get better, and our herd becomes more and more balanced.

Although your mgmt efforts will inevitably also help your neighbors, good management will reap dividends regardless of the size of the tract of land.

This thread should be combined with the "Hard to Compete with Cash" thread. I hunted with the Drury's about 15 years ago, and they weren't exactly rolling in cash at the time. They saved their money and bought a few hundred acres of prime habitat farm land. They worked hard to implement a sound management plan, and their hard work paid off. Their shows were a hit, which allowed them to buy even more land. In turn, other like-minded hunters purchased the adjacent land. Now, they've all got an unbelievable deer hunting mecca.

No, you're probably not going to end up with a 150 acre farm that will produce Iowa sized monsters, but I'd bet my farm that you'll see a huge difference in the quality of your herd generally and your bucks once you really start implementing a mgmt plan. With 150 acres, I'd concentrate on 3 things: (a) Instilling a mindset that mgmt comes before hunting. If hunters are focused on killing does early in the year, you won't have to worry about shooting them during the prime time rut; (b) Work on habitat - Food plots and bedding areas (and possibly a small watering hole if you don't have other water sources; and (c) Set aside about 50 acres in the middle of your farm as a sanctuary where no hunting is allowed. Your sanctuary should be the thickest, nasties place on the farm. You'll be surprised to see how quickly the deer will gravitate to that area. If you hunt your entire farm, you run the risk of simply pushing your bucks onto your neighbors.

IMO, good management is a self-perpetuating, self-fulfilling cycle. Start it, and once your neighbors see that's its working, they'll want to climb on board.

Of course, you can also just do nothing and blame a lack of bucks on money. ;):)

[sirgiovanni]

BF, how do you establish good doe harvest rates?

[bigpuddin43]

we started a healthy doe harvest a few years ago. last year we had one more buck sighting than we did a doe sightings. this was confirmed with our trail cam pics this past summer. Also our bucks are improving much faster than i thought they would I got a buck that field dressed 200 lbs this year my gradpa says its the biggest buck hes seen taken around here. just harvest more does than you did last year and continue this until your buck sightings start increasing. Also work on habitat remember bucks like it thick. especially early when they arent chasing does.

[buckfever]

BF, how do you establish good doe harvest rates?

Sir - I think it's more of an art form than science, b/c it's very difficult to get a true census. IMO, there's just too many places for deer to hide to get very accurate on how many deer are on a given piece of land. I estimate that we have about 100-150 deer or so regularly using our farm (including visitors from our neighbors). In the past, we've had 4-5 hunters add up all the deer sighted and come up with more than 100. Some of these deer might be the same deer seen by more than one hunter, but based on the number of bucks that we have pictures of (and know are hanging around) but no hunter physically sees, we know that there are a lot more deer than what we are seeing. I've personally seen over 50 deer in one hunt moving in one direction, so few were repeats.

One of the best pieces of advice is to call up KDFWR. They have biologists on staff that can help evaluate their herd and help you come up with a good mgmt plan.

I know we have too many deer on our farm, but we're keeping our head above water by mandating a healthy doe harvest for ALL our hunters. We plant plenty of food sources, and keep some areas off limits (which is actually tougher than it sounds. It's hard NOT to hunt an area when you drive down the road and jump 2 or 3 very good bucks out of that sanctuary). I think our herd is pretty much 1/1 does to bucks, maybe 1.5 does per buck.

In the past, we've also had some guys that tended to persistently "buck hunt". It's annoying for me to have to shoot 8-10 does a year b/c these guys don't want to shoot does or be bothered by the "plan". I simply tell them I'm going to put them in the worst buck stands until they start pulling their weight. Guys that still don't get the message don't get invited back.

If Mathews is seeing 20-30 does per hunter per hunt on his 150 acres and very few bucks, that tells me he has way too many does, his herd ratio is out of whack, and his age structure is screwed up.

I hear folks say they don't want to shoot does, b/c the cruising bucks will be visiting their hunting area when the rut kicks in. It's been my experience that the exact opposite is true, and that rutting activity diminishes a lot if you have too many does. I believe that 90% of rutting activity occurs at night. If you have a bunch of does, the bucks don't have to get up and look around for another new one. Maintain a better sex/age ratio, and I think you'd be surprised at how many more bucks you actually do see.

It takes a little time to develop a good mgmt plan, but the first place to start is with a private land mgr or one of the excellent deer biologists we have available for free at KDFWR.

[elkguy]

BF, how do you establish good doe harvest rates?

You did not ask me but, I'd say that if you are in a Unit 1 county in KY, shoot every doe that stands still long enough to present a shot. Especially target does with button buck fawns. If you kill their momma, there is a good chance that when that buck gets older, his home range will include part of his mother's home range. If his mother does not get killed, at age 1.5 he will disperse anywhere from 3 to 15 miles away from his mother's home range. There is also a chance that young bucks will not set up a home range in an area of a high doe concentration because every time he turns around some old nannie doe is kicking his butt. The exception is during the rut, but during the rest of the year, old does dominate young bucks.

If Matthews Hunter is seeing 20 to 30 a day, that is a very strong indicator that there are too many deer there.

[naturalelite]

I hear folks say they don't want to shoot does, b/c the cruising bucks will be visiting their hunting area when the rut kicks in. It's been my experience that the exact opposite is true, and that rutting activity diminishes a lot if you have too many does. I believe that 90% of rutting activity occurs at night. If you have a bunch of does, the bucks don't have to get up and look around for another new one. Maintain a better sex/age ratio, and I think you'd be surprised at how many more bucks you actually do see.


I have this same discussion ever year with the guys on one my leases. They will not shoot does. Its hard to argue with them since we typically see 12 to 20 bucks a piece opening weekend of gun season. Most of which hot on the trail of a doe.

[sirgiovanni]

Thanks all. I have some unique problems to overcome but we have come a long way in 3 years. This land has had a tremendous environment transformation and the herd is growing in age from being over harvested. Now the does are becoming a real issue. Of all the stuff referred to the KDFWR, I didn't know if there were any documented plans available. Everything said makes perfect sense. It all unfortunately has to start with a mindset with the ones you share the land with. :)

[buckfever]

I have this same discussion ever year with the guys on one my leases. They will not shoot does. Its hard to argue with them since we typically see 12 to 20 bucks a piece opening weekend of gun season. Most of which hot on the trail of a doe.

Natty - If your lease compatriots refuse to shoot does, and the land is at or over capacity, that decision will come back to haunt them in the long run. Tell them to enjoy their hunting today, b/c this will be as good as it ever gets.

Too many deer will result in lesser quality bucks over time. Increased browse lines and your bucks will never reach their potential. Mark my words.

I guess I'm one of those elitist big buck hunters. I'd rather hunt 75 deer on 500 acres than 150 deer. I may not see as many deer, but I'd be confident that the bucks are bigger. :D

p.s. On opening morning of gun season last year, I counted 16 different bucks.

[naturalelite]

Natty - If your lease compatriots refuse to shoot does, and the land is at or over capacity, that decision will come back to haunt them in the long run. Tell them to enjoy their hunting today, b/c this will be as good as it ever gets.

Too many deer will result in lesser quality bucks over time. Increased browse lines and your bucks will never reach their potential. Mark my words.

I guess I'm one of those elitist big buck hunters. I'd rather hunt 75 deer on 500 acres than 150 deer. I may not see as many deer, but I'd be confident that the bucks are bigger. :D

Contrary to popular belief I too like the racks. I am in a zone 2 but there are so many does and only two of us killing them it has went in 4 years from seeing 8 to 15 deer a sitting mixed with bucks and does to seeing over 20 almost every sitting all does. During bow season/ML. While on stand this year 5 of us have seen 2 bucks and well over 200 does. I am afraid we are already at that point...

[Al]

I guess I'm one of those elitist big buck hunters. I'd rather hunt 75 deer on 500 acres than 150 deer. I may not see as many deer, but I'd be confident that the bucks are bigger. :D

75 on 500 acs isnt that still overpopulated??
I hear agencies talking about a target of no more than 25 deer per sq mile, but that seems low to me. A sq mile is 600 acs I beleive.

[buckfever]

75 on 500 acs isnt that still overpopulated??
I hear agencies talking about a target of no more than 25 deer per sq mile, but that seems low to me. A sq mile is 600 acs I beleive.

I think you're math is right and 75 is probably too many deer, but I was speaking about our particular farm.

I think the 25 deer/mile is just an average across an entire county. I could be wrong, but it would seem pretty low in a good habitat area. I'd think that there are lots of areas in the state that can support more the 25 deer per mile without all the negatives, but who knows.:confused:

Maybe one of resident biologists can weigh in here about the deer numbers prime habitat can support. . .

[Al]

I think you're math is right and 75 is probably too many deer, but I was speaking about our particular farm.

I think the 25 deer/mile is just an average across an entire county. I could be wrong, but it would seem pretty low in a good habitat area. I'd think that there are lots of areas in the state that can support more the 25 deer per mile without all the negatives, but who knows.:confused:

Maybe one of resident biologists can weigh in here about the deer numbers prime habitat can support. . .
I think BSK quit posting on here because of those debates. He was saying he shoots for something like 15 deer per sq mile. That would mean alot of time in the stand without seeing any deer.
If more hunters could talk their wifes into cooking venison their would be alot more does taken. We eat 2 a yr but could eat 3, but I dont think the pop. is high enough on our farm for me to take 3 deer a year yet.
I usually see deer every 2nd or 3rd hunt but not every time I go out.

[rangerman2003]

why are you complaining for man...if you kill bucks every year whats there to complain about...alot and i mean alot of people would love to see 5 to 10 deer in a day much less 20 to 30


I havent killed a racked buck since 2000, and am lucky to see 5 - 10 deer a SEASON!!!

[Al]

I havent killed a racked buck since 2000, and am lucky to see 5 - 10 deer a SEASON!!!
Yeah same here I dont see many deer but usually just as many bucks as does.

[notimlmit]

Man if I don't start seeing some deer I'm going to start shooting at some of the dozens of squirrels that are driving me crazy. Buy some bonus tags and take some does out I think it will help your buck situation also.

[rangerman2003]

Man if I don't start seeing some deer I'm going to start shooting at some of the dozens of squirrels that are driving me crazy. Buy some bonus tags and take some does out I think it will help your buck situation also.


hahah alot of squirrels this year huh