Bowhunting Wounding Loss

[oldtimer]

A recent post suggested that wounding rates with a bow were more than with a rifle and that the bow was not a weapon that one should attempt to deer hunt with if they wanted to humainly kill whitetails and it was for these reasons that he did not bowhunt. I believe that was the gist of the post. I would like to suggest that anyone interested in learning the truth on this issue read the following article http://www.nbef.org/ripley.html
This was and is the most extensive research done on this topic. You could probably get the full report, somewhere.

[joekat46]

The real difference is that a bow hunter usually knows when he has hit a deer and follows up the shot. Some of the long range rifle hunters only think they missed when they didn't. Bow hunters may recover more actual dead deer than some "he was way across the holler" shooters that don't follow up those long shots.

[stevenmaggard]

Good point joekat46!!

[ksp965]

I made the post that you refer to. I have included it below so you can read it in its entirity.

"I have friends and family that bow hunt religiously. But for me, that picture is a good reason why my bow is used for target practice only. When I get excited with a gun, my group goes from 2" to 6" at a hundred yards. If it was a bow it would go to 6 feet at a lot closer distance! Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like me out there but they don't have the good sense to stay out of the woods with a bow. Please, for the sake of the game and the sake of your chosen weapon, if you can't do it, won't do it or just get the shakes, leave the bow at home. It is not an efficient killing weapon. If you are going to use a bow, you owe it to the animal you hunt to practice, practice, practice. Then to make doubly sure of your range and make triple sure of your shot. If you have a shadow of a doubt, DON'T SHOOT!!! A poor shot like shown here is more destructive to what ethical hunters have tried to promote than anything PETA could dream up on their best day. As a matter of fact, I think the picture should be removed least it be picked up by the antis and the thoughtful hunter and his act of mercy will become the poster child for anti-hunters everywhere with a completely different byline. Just my opinion."

The point of the post was that 1). Those people who can not, or will not, use a bow efficiently should not use them to hunt, (of which I am one that can not, as I explained in my post)., 2)Those people who do hunt with a bow owe it to the game to practice their shooting, to make sure of their range, to make sure of their shot, and to pass on marginal shots because we owe it to the game we hunt to make a humane kill, (I said a bow was not an efficient weapon, I never said that it could not humanely harvest a deer when properly and skillfully used within its limitation)., 3)The picture should be removed because it is the type of picture that PETA or other anti-hunting organizatons could mis-use as proporganda to the detriment of hunters everwhere., 4)That my thoughts as posted were just my own opinions. (The picture referred to was a nice buck with an arrow sticking out from the base of its neck. The deer was harvested by a caring, thoughtful hunter during rifle season for the purpose of putting it out of its misery.) The reference to the rate of wounded deers not being harvested was not part of my post but was part of another post on the same thread where the poster made the statement that bow hunters recover more wounded deer than gun hunters. (I don't remember whether his statement was debated or even commented on, I don't think it was.)

I read the posted article with interest. Did you notice how the total harvest dropped by approximately 50% over the two years of the study, (331 deer harvested to 139 deer harvested)? Just out of curiosity I wondered why, do you know? I was also interested in the total number of hunters and the hunter density per square mile. This information was missing. As many of the wounded deer were recovered by other hunters,(45% of the deer reported as having "substantiated hits" were harvested by other hunters), I thought this would be significant, don't you? Unfortunately they were only able to interview 60.8% of the hunters who failed to harvest a deer as opposed to 98.9% of the hunters who actually harvested a deer. It would seem that missed or wounded deer would be higher among the unsuccessful hunters as a group, but that may not be a valid assumption, what do you think? Of course this excerpt was just part of the overall study and those questions may have been answered in the formal report. Anyway, I found the article informative, well done and very interesting. Such quality information is what is great about the internet and this site, don't you agree?

[joekat46]

You get a perfect score in the ethics department "ksp965". If I'm reading you right you think the listed article was less than perfect. You may be right, a lot of guys aren't going to admit to hitting and not recovering a deer. That's human nature and unless everyone has a monitor following him around isn't going to change. I do believe bow hunters recover as many, if not more, deer as the long range shooters. I came from a slugs only state and since I've lived in KY am always amazed at the number of "stories" I hear about 300 yard and up shots and "brush busting" bullets. Living in a highly suburbanized zone 1 county it is an accident waiting to happen and I'll bet the gun wounding rate may be higher than many think.

[beef]

I agree with you ksp 965.When I got my frist bow quite a few years back I practice every day all summer long right up to bow season came in.That was my worst fear to shoot a deer and wound it an not find it.To this date that has not happen.I do not bow hunt as much as I used too.But I still practice with my bow.We as hunters owe it to the deer to make a clean kill.[:D]

[keith meador]

ksp you are 100% correct that there are a large number of hunters who practice very little with bow or gun. just hang out at any archery/gun store the week prior to the season and you will see what i mean.

the key to your archery success could lie in practice. if you make every shot your money shot, and shoot quite a bit thru the year, the bow becomes second nature. much like your service weapon.

i agree that a lot of gun hunters feel if they didnt see it hit the ground at the spot where the animal was shot at, it was a miss. i have shot deer with everything from a 22-250 to 300 rum, and they will take a huge amount of punishment and keep going. i have shot deer with a bow, and with good shot placement have had them die within sight most of the time.

ksp you have the right idea. if you are not compfortable with your equpiment, do not take it to the field. on the other hand, practice, and use your time wisely, get out there and hunt, and if you still are not sure, you dont have to shoot......

bucks cannot grow antlers in your freezer....

[rouge]

i will admit to loosing a buck this year. he spun and ducked at the shot. i hit him high, no blood, no arrow, no nothing. i was sick about it but it happens. the shot was ethical and i would take the same shot again.u just cant predict the actions of deer.

[Roy Grimes]

I agree with the ethic you stated KSP. No one should ever take any shot except that which is considered a gimmee for him. You determine a gimmee by practice, evaluation, and experience. The gimmee shot at a target in a controlled environment is almost always further than under the pressure of hunting conditions. I might feel very comfortable making a 50 yard or further kill shot on a 3-D target in my backyard but I wouldn't consider anything further than 30 yards in the wild (I've only taken 2 shots further than 25 yards at whitetail deer in 35 years of bowhunting--killed one and missed the other).

The Ripley study is considered the landmark and best ever done bowhunting wounding study. It took place on a public hunted, 50,000 acre military property. Hunters were interviewed, followed, and extensive ground searches were conducted during and after the hunt. I recall the loss rate was about 11%. Keep in mind, this study documented that many arrow-hit deer recover from their wounds (as do many firearms hit deer).

Other studies, some in Northern Indiana in the early 1980's showed that gun/bow wounding losses were very nearly identical--11-12%.

I think it is important that we not pit one hunter/tool type against another. Most of the time, most hunters will make the correct decision to respect their quarry and not try to exceed their abilities. Anything less is disrespectful of yourself. Even so, from time to time even the gimmee shot and most ethical of decisions will result in the unfortunate wounding of a game animal. When that happens it is important the hunter do everything legal and in his power to retreive the animal or prove that it will recover and learn from the experience.

Final point: it is not necessary that the hunter share with the world this experience because many wouldn't benefit or understand. Worse, some would twist and misrepresent the tale. Share it with those you feel might benefit and who are worth your time.

[gut shot]

ok were talking ethics lets all stay home so we don't run over the poor little bambies with our cars to or should we set our 3d targets and practice running over them the correct way but that would be stupid acidents happen don't they!

[MrBowhunter]

1st off, thank you Roy for taking the time to give some insight. I think knowing that the study was done in a moderated environement adds much more validity to the study as a whole.

KSP965, I simply took offense to yer statement. Nothing against you but as my name hasstates I'm a bowhunter. And not just a bowhunter, a bowhunter explicity. I don't use guns, nothing wrong with them I just enjoy a harder hunt. I also don't use a compound anymore, I shoot a stick which lessen my odds even more. You listed four reason for making the statement, I think the only change I would make is to reason number 2. It's not just bowhunters but hunters as a whole that need to follow reason number 2 to the letter. I agree wholeheartedly with Roy, either when I shot compound or now when shooting a stick, I can hit a non moving, non living 3D target up to 100 yards. I've never shot more than 17 yards with my compound and have yet to take a shot at a deer with my stick because I want it close, 10-15 yards. I practice all the time, I attend several shoots around central KY and I enjoy it more than anything except my family who also exclusively bowhunt. Wow, what a bunch of bowhunters are we.

Thanks for your opinion and have a good day!

Kenny

[Multidigits]

The problem is more complex than shoot or don't shoot. Lot's of things have changed since the out daed Ripley Study was done. Some hunters have lost respect for the deer that most of us had when that study was done. I helped lots of guys get started in archery, and always preached 20 yard shots in most all cases. Rarely in my career have I launched an arrow further than that range. Double lungers are very impressive. Most dropping within sight. Guys would practice religously before going hunting. It's changed. A lot of that is lost. Bows are improved, but sportsmanship has declined--badly.

A guy that only wants 20 lbs of meat from a deer is not going to look long and hard to find it. The deer herd has been devalued, and ethics have disappeared. Their defense--plenty more out there, and the Dept. wants them killed anyway. That sucks, but it's true. Crop damage permits given out like coupons for have a place to hunt. Folks, it's a sad situation. And it's not just bow hunters, it's more than that.

KSP issued an opinion on what he's seen. Some others have seen it also. I constantly hear of deer shot and lost. Today, I've heard stories of 4 different bucks not recovered by one hunter. Somethings wrong when it becomes a habit?

For starters, the quick fix is a wanton waste law. Then a Dept. funded HFH deer drop off program. Let's restore the respect that the deer herd deserves, and then work on ethics in the field?

[Bonecollector]

I'd like to weigh in guys, if I could. I believe whole heartedly that we all need to be responsible, accountable, and know our personal limits. I, like Keith, shoot the bow and arrow year round, heck I even shoot the courses he sets at the game farm and charge him for my weed eating fees. My point is that even though I feel very confident with my bow, I take in account all the varibles such as excitement, the animals level of arousal, the temperature, how many layers I have on, the light condition, the shot angle, etc. My limit is 30 yds on calm broadside deer when every other varible is favorable. But I have passed shots less than 20 because the odds where too high of making a bad hit. The biggest problem that we face as hunters is the fact that the ethics, respect, skill, and common sense is not getting passed along to the new comers. When I entered the hunting world, there was a code, a creed, and a traditon. Now a days its all about killing one of them there "Monster Bucks" like on them real tree videos and I don't care if I have to tresspass, poach, take ludicris shots, piss folks off or make everybody think all huners are bums. In my opinion there are just too many Bubbas and smart ass kids without a clue that gives the rest of us a bad rap. I challenge everybody to teach your kids like your daddy taught you, and your grand daddy taught him. Bring common sense and respect back into the picture and don't be afraid to call out the idiots and whoop an ass or too if you need too.

[Strutter]

KSP. Why is it that you think a bow is not an efficiect killing weapon. I have taken lots of deer with a bow and they have expired within 10 seconds or less and went down within 30 yards, except for 2 and they went a bit further. One went 150 yards(my first) and the second went 60 yards. What is inefficient about that?

[keith meador]

if i may step in, i think ksp simply means he is not compfortable. i may be off base here. the bow and arrow are very good tools for harvesting game of all sizes. if it werent for the bow invention many thousands of years ago, we may have a modern gun, muzzleloader and rock throwing season. with the right instruction, patience, and persistance, anyone can shoot a bow. the level of copetentcy depends on what you put into it. little effort, little results. you cannot walk around the block one time and expect to loose 15 pounds.

as for the deer in ky being devalued, it may be true in some cases, but not here. as a young man growing up my father instilled in me the value of taking any game. if a deer was wounded by people my father knew, we all loaded up and went out looking for the deer. i am still the same way today. if i shoot at an animal, i stay at it until there is no doubt in my mind the deer survived, or i recover the animal.

bucks cannot grow antlers in your freezer....

[Highbow]

Glad to see you hanging around Roy and glad to see your input again. I no my limits with what ever my choice of weapons maybe and that is what everyone should try to educate others on.

[Xtreme]

This must be "old home week" on this thread! Kenny has popped out of the woods here and "ole Roy" has stopped by for a visit.

Guys ,the only thing I will add is that I agree with Roy on the fact that finger pointing among hunters is wrong. I've seen em lost with a 7 Win.mag and everything else. Like KSP said, shoot what you have confidence in.

As I've stated on here before "anything that you can hit with a car doing 45 miles per hour and it jumps up and runs off leaving you with a wrecked car......never to be seen again? Well, you just aren't gonna kill em all"

[seeker3]

I am a Bow Hunter and I do not rifle hunt anymore because I think there is very little sport in it, however for ((( US HUNTERS ))) to be arguing amongst each other, or for that matter even having this discussion is not helping anybody and there right to hunt with a gun or bow. We should be supporting each other so nobody can ever attempt to take away that right. The only good thing about discussing this issue is that maybe someone who takes unethical shots may read it and think twice when getting ready to pull the trigger or release the arrow next time.

[Al_Barrs]

oldtimer, I don't know about KY but in the two states (Florida and Michigan) where I do my deer hunting using a bloodtrailing dog on a leash is legal. I drove from FL to MO to buy a pureblood Jagdterrier (German Hunting Terrier) last January and trained her to only trail wounded deer by the blood. On the first day of the season in Michigan I took a nice heavy 6-point through the lungs, but he ran off into a Tagaltar Swamp. My jagd took the blood trail and about 200 yards into the swamp trailed right up to the still warm buck. I have used many dogs to trail wounded deer bloodtrails. That is the way for any hunter, bow, firearm or spear to go. Don't loose one...they taste to good! Check you state laws on bloodtrailing dogs on leashes. Spend a little money and time to have the satisfaction of knowing you can recover that deer. Some states have wounded game recovery associations and clubs. The only difference with bow vs firearm hunting at reasonable ranges is that the broadhead slices blood vessels and the deer will run off and if it is a high shot may not bleed all that much. With a rifle or shotgun the deer may or may not be knocked down by the shock of the bullet. If you don't hit bone the deer will usually run off. If you use a cartridge that will totally penetrate the body of a deer there will usually be some exit blood for your bloodtrailer to follow. Look into acquiring a purebred bloodtrailing dog...from one oldtimer to another oldtimer Good Hunting.Al

Al Barrs

[Concreteman]

I too bow hunt, and admit fully that when I first started bow hunting,I didnt have any business in the woods. I didnt practice near enough. I was young and definitly dumb. Thinking back makes me want to kick my own @ss.

There is nothing wrong with bow hunting, the problem is with the one who is holding the weapon. That includes any weapon. I say common sense and practice are the best things we as hunters can use for the animals sake. Im not trying to step on anyones toes, but if every hunter was to practice more, a much better shot they would be, and your confidence will help your prospects..
C Man

Obey the rules, and we will all be glad later.

[joekat46]

Did I dream this? I seem to remember one state, at one time, requiring all arrows be imprinted with the hunters name and/or address. That would certainly make every bow hunter a bit more accountable. Nobody would want it to be known that an unrecovered and rotting deer was found with one of YOUR arrows in it. YES - I also agree we probably don't need another rule. Just something to think about. It might have been Texas?[?]. With the new high tech bows that usually produce a pass through it is probably not feasible now anyway.

[Multidigits]

Ft. Knox requires it today--on the first 4" of the shaft-which is always the part that isn't recovered on most hits. Silly rule, and very ineffective. At one time, Ft. Knox required a Proficiency Test for bow hunters. Probably didn't stop poor judgement, which is the number ne problem.

[hesupatree]

I usualy sit on fence but I cant this time I have been a bowhunter for 25yrs. I also hunt with a rifle I have watched many deer lay down and die in a peaceful manor without a clue of what just happend to them.They were all shot with an arrow. I have never seen this happen after the report of a rifle.With the exception of a few rut crazed bucks that continued to chase on there death run.As for recovery of shot deer I have seen several broadheads healed over I have not yet found a bullet.

[KRR]

Joekat, I don't know about a state but when I started bowhunting
Ft. Knox they required your name and permit number on the arrows. It did make you think about someone finding your arrow. I don't think it changed my shot selection but it was always in the back of your mind.

[Blevins Gap Outdoors]

Like already said, pointing fingers and fighting between ourselves is the wrong thing to be doing. The real problem in deer hunting today is the dept. devalue of our deer heard. They make people feel like kill or shoot all the deer you see because we have so many they will over run us soon. Next are lack of hunting ethics by to many hunters. I can remember the day when ethics were one of the first things we learned as hunters, even before how to hunt. It was part of growing up. Today ethics and morals in this country are going down hill fast. Not only in hunting but in general.

We as hunters owe it to the game we hunt to show it the respect it deserves, be it a deer or what ever. And when we see hunters not doing the right thing we should attempt to teach them the right way. It's hard to do with older hunters but we can't give up. There are way to many slob hunters running around calling themselves hunters to suit me. They are the ones that are hurting all good hunters! When is the last time you heard of a farmer telling you he does not allow hunting anymore because of what a ethical hunter had done.

Take Me To Blevins Gap Outdoors (http://www.huntbgo.com)