DID YOU KNOW

[Birdman]

With in the 7th, district we have 131,648 acres of public land in which to hunt or fish the 8th district has 30,924 acres, 9th 120,300 acres this totals 282,872 acres this does not include the new WMA's that have been added this year, which I think is around 60,000 acres, putting the total over 300,000 acres. The Danies Boone is 670,000 acres by it's self, grant you some of these WMA's are within the Daniel Boone (about 100,000 acres) with all areas together we have about 800,000 acres of public land in these three districts that are huntable. What we get from the dept. is that these areas are to small to make a difference. What do you think?

[MrBowhunter]

What do I think about what Birdman? I don't understand what your question is.

[Birdman]

Why the dept. thinks this amount of public land is to small to make a difference as far as doing habitat work on, or improving habitat on this properity, for hunting.

Edited by - Birdman on 07/15/2002 3:44:36 PM

[grouseguy]

Let me try to help, Mr. Bowhunter...I think what Birdman is pointing out is how the KDFWR talks out of both sides of its mouth when it comes to habitat improvement, especially for small game. When discussing habitat improvement, the Dept's standard response is that 95% of available hunting land is privately held and the Dept can't develop those lands. BUT, when discussing public lands, the Dept says we don't have enough land to make a difference. Basically, they are saying they CAN'T develop private land and they WON'T develop public land.

Now birdman makes a statement of fact that there is nearly 1 million acres of public hunting land in the 7th, 8th and 9th wildlife districts making up eastern KY. So the questions are: If 1 million acres is not enough...then how much IS enough?, and If we can't develop it now, then WHEN?

The problem is not "how much" or "when"...its actually when are we going to get the Dept administration (insert DC here) to actually start working for the sportsmen of KY rather than just playing "wildlife management" with his hand picked commission.

[grouseguy]

Sorry Birdman, I guess I was responding to Mr. Bowhunter at the same time you were. Hope I didn't confuse the issue.

[Herper26]

Sometimes I get the impression that the only thing that will please you two is if the dept. clear cuts all of eastern ky. for grouse habitat. I hate to break the news to you guys, but...there are other people out here that like to hunt things other than grouse! I think the dept. is doing a hell of a job with the money and manpower they have.

[GSP]

Herper, I know the history on their complaints. Try it from this angle. What if the labor and supplies were donated? What would be your response then?

[Birdman]

Herper I'm not sure where your from, or if you've been in eastern ky. But I'm going to share this with you, and assume that you have,since you think the dept. has done a good job. The WMA's in these areas haven't been touched untill this year and very few this year. The Forest Service is disappointed in the effort that has or has not taken place on WMA's with in the Daniel Boone Forest. I don't know what you hunt, but if you think that habitat improvements won't help all game speices and nongame speices your looking at the door of Heartwood. And that's I nice as I can be about this situation. Have you been in any of these districts and where are you really from? There's is no one that I've talk with in any on these districts that I've talked to that even come close to what your saying I'll stop with that and hope you can enlighten me on where in these districts you think they've done anything.

And grouseguy you said it much better than I. Thanks

Edited by - Birdman on 07/15/2002 8:04:58 PM

[Highbow]

Birdman & GrouseGuy, I cannot understand how anyone could think that this public land will not have an effect on how wildlife in our area it is joined by private lands all around and if nothing is done on either how could anything improve. We need to quit kissing but and demand that our money be spent on game species, not non -game species.

[Birdman]

Amen.

[GSP]

Now fellows, if y'all start making wildlife openings, food plots and plant native grasses on those WMAs up there. Rabbits and birds will start increasing. Next you will have turkey and deer, followed by those elk.
We don't want that happing, for then people may start wanting to hunt again and buying license, which would really screw up the pretty chart that Tom Bennett showed us Saturday saying the NUMBER ONE reason people are NOT buying license is, No place to hunt!!!!!!




Edited by - gsp on 07/15/2002 9:33:41 PM

[MrBowhunter]

Thanks for the clarification fellas. PA is lucky to have a million acres in the whole state. The fact there is a million in 3 districts amazes me. As far as that being too small an area to work on habitat improvement, I say hogwash. Go to the "Archery Season Countdown" thread and look at what CSS Archer has done with his habitat with what I would assume is slightly less than a million acres. Too small? hahaha that's not really their stance is it?

Kenny

[grouseguy]

Mr. Bowhunter,

Unfortunately, yes that is their stance, although I prefer the term "excuse du jour", because the reasons change depending on who the audience is.

[Herper26]

You guys absolutely kill me. Why dont you quit your B!!!!'n and move to another state. Why on earth would the dept. want to NOT increase wildlife numbers? Just to pi## you guys off? Give me a break, no matter what your titles are and how important you THINK you are, I'm not seeing it. They don't have endless amounts of money you know, there is a limit as to what they can manage, and that includes what they oversee in terms of volunteer work or donations. You guys want to know "where is the dept.", well hell, why would they want to come here and deal with this sh#@? Obviously nothing they say or do will satisfy you guys, which brings me to reiterate my previous statement,"you guys wont be happy until the dept. clear cuts all of eastern KY."

[Birdman]

At least your talking about how you feel, there's no reasoning behind it but your talking. If you would, check the departments web site under hunting then go to WMA's and see what that list is. Then go to public lands and check the areas. Then tell me we're full of sh-t. If you're going to bitch at least know what your bitching about.

And I'll be the first to say, the dept. has done a great job on those areas listed on that site. As far as money goes, if the areas in eastern ky. was managed properly the dept. would have money running out there a--.

To satisfy us is to manage these areas for all species, not let them grow up in old forest and rep no benifits for our next generations. As far as moving to another state we're there now, and have been for years. We want some of the same things the rest of the sstate has.

[grouseguy]

Herper26, I'm going to cut you some slack since your new here (unless you're just posting under a new username), and not completely blast you for your uninformed rant.

When Birdman speaks, you'd be well served to listen, because you would be hard pressed to find a more experienced voice about the inner workings of the KDFWR and the LKS or a more dedicated sportsman. It would also be beneficial for you to get all the facts and then apply a little independent thought BEFORE forming and spouting such a confrontational opinion. Then, if you still disagree with our position, at least it will be based on an informed opinion.

When dealing with the Dept, it is best to realize that what is publicly stated is not necessarily (and is probably not) the way it actually is. Also, it is best to realize that there has been a definate shift in the Dept over the last few years, strangely directly corresponding with Roy Grimes rise in power, to a more beurocratic, political, less accountable, non-sportsman friendly, fiefdom than what you may recall from years past.

[Multidigits]

OK, so if Roy is the problem, what is Tom Bennet's role in all of this?

Are these areas your referring to owned by the Dept.??

Don't owners of private lands in your areas cut timber. I'd find it hard to believe that logging is not wide spread in your area as it is in other parts of the state. After all, a log should have the same value down there as it does up here?

They make you King for a day. What's your solution to the grouse situation??? How long will the changes you made take before you get the results you want?

Who is the upland game coordinator in the Dept. and what part of Georgia doaes he come from?

[Herper26]

Multi,
I laughed my a## off when I read the last line of your post!

[Multidigits]

Spelling and typing has never been my long suit.

[MULESKINNER]

I am planning on doing some hunting this year in that part of the state and would like to know what the department has done/is doing out there for small game and upland birds. I often see complaints about their lack of effort or even communication and was wondering if these WMAs are nothing more than huge chunks of land completely left alone for public use or if they are actually wildlife MANAGEMENT areas that are actively being improved to better MANAGE the propogation of our wildlife, ie...upland game?

[MULESKINNER]

I meant to mention that regardless of how Roy performs as commisioner I do know that he is passionate about Ky wildlife. I think its hard to judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

[KYhunter]

gsp= Years back I wanted to donate most of my weekends and some of my weekdays at Kleber WMA on small game habitat improvement and was told " NO thanks."

[Birdman]

I'm not sure where Tom stands on this, in a meeting 3yrs. ago Tom make the statement that the lack of habitat was the problem. Then a few months later Roy sent a letter to the regional biologist, not to do anything on these WMA's.

A few of these are owned by KDFWR the others are leasees from, Corp, Ky. State Forest, and Daniel Boone N.F.

There is some logging going on in this area, usually select cutting, which in most cases does more harm to trees that are left and not much for wildlife.

Our situation is to manage these public lands for grouse and all other species as they were meant to be. As for the time period, you'll start seeing a difference in 3 to 5 yrs. King nooo but a person that has, and will continue to work to improve our public lands, yesss. And we need all the help we can get.

After John and Dan moved up I'm not sure who moved into that job.

Mule we're not trying to judge Roy or anyone else. We're trying to convince the people in charge that this work needs to be done and done now.

Edited by - Birdman on 07/17/2002 3:58:58 PM

[Multidigits]

Specificly, detail what work you want done and what's there now. Take for an example one of the WMA's that the Dept. actually owns. I'm trying to draw a comparison to other WMA's that I'm familar with. Again, be specific. Thanks.

[Highbow]

Paintsville Lake WMA is leased from the Army Corp of Engineers, there has been more work performed there this year than ever before in great part due to the work of Birdman, and GrouseGuy and several others who have let a voice be heard. It has already paid off and still has a long way to go but the Dept. has only allowed TEMPS to be put on long enough to get the program started and they have done a lot of work with what was provided but more work needs to be done and that will mean more employees , since they won't really allow volunteers to do the work.

[Valley Station]

Is it against state law or Ky F&W policy NOT TO utilize free volunteer labor??? In other states (i.e. Pa.), local clubs and wildlife organizations are encouraged to assist F&W on habitat improvement projects. Plant trees, shrubs, native grasses,make brush piles, stream improvements, etc. NOT IN KENTUCKY. Why????
Would be great to get youth involved in the outdoors.
Get people involved, they will take more pride in "their" public property. Less littering, more eyes to monitor game violations to protect our resources.
Why not?? Is it a "state employ empire power" thing ??

[Birdman]

Multi lets take Pine Mountain WMA (5,018) Letcher CO. location 5mi. SW of Whitesburg off US 119. Mountainous and steep. Game species deer, squirrel, turkey, grouse, fox, and raccoon. No camping allowed. Sight-seeing, hiking.

Take each of these WMA's, get the bottom land cleaned up, put in alternative food sources for game. On our hill sides determine acreage, divide number of acres by 80yrs. and clear cut that section.

This will do several thing. Regenerate a poor forest caused by select cutting, in past years,(taking the number of acres listed above we would cut 62.6 acres per year for 80yrs.) create thickets for grouse and other game for propogation and cover. Plus the money coming in from logging on these properities will pay for forestry biogolists and other projects on these WMA's.

What's there now is a stand of grade 2 and 3 timber that's benefiting very little.

This year we got some small water holes on this area do to the work the ky. grouse hunters have been doing with KDFWR the last two years.

Muleskinner they've cut about 25 acres on Paintsville Lake in different locations, around three acres on Dewey and Yatesville WMA's. On Yatesville they burned about 40 acres and planeted some fields, on Paintsville there was some burning and about 20 acres was sown. We hope that this will continue on these areas but we need everyones voice and help to get this started on all these WMA's in eastern ky.
If your looking for grouse, the southern part of ky. has a better population at this time. If I can help you locate an ares just call.

[grouseguy]

Good job on the above response, Birdman. I would like to add one thing to avoid the argument that is sure to come up about ownership of the WMA's...DC used to claim that nothing could be done on most of the eastern KY WMA's since they were under Federal ownership and only managed by KDFWR, but the following has dispelled that myth.

Birdman, through some of his connections with the Corp determined that logging for wildlife habitat improvement purposes is an acceptable practice under CURRENT federal regulations. Actually the Dept is allowed to keep the proceeds from timber sales as long as those proceeds are reinvested into the same WMA for an acceptable purpose (i.e. wildlife habitat improvement). This could provide funding for a Wildlife Forrester to coordinate the habitat improvements on all of the WMA's, along with most out-of-pocket expenses for the Dept. Therefore, we could have our cake and eat it too. By using timber sales to fund the habitat improvement, we could have much better habitat at little or no cost to the Dept.

BUT ROY SAYS NO!

[Birdman]

Grouseguy not only will corp people allow this to happen, in their lease with KDFR it's a requirement that the dept. do logging and habitat improvements.

Valley it's not against the law but in past years some of the dept. would say, they couldn't do anything because of the corp. that's not true.

Herper26 did you check out the WMA's and public land and what do you think? Mulit what about you?

Edited by - Birdman on 07/20/2002 8:05:55 PM

[Multidigits]

Birdman, I don't have an answer for you. The only WMAs I know much about is Yellowbank. I see some fields farmed on shares there, and some natural grass areas. The manager even combines these areas for seed off the natural grasses. I can tell you they only have twoo employees to work this WMA and the other areas that the manager is responsible for. One of these other areas was the former WMA known as Lapland that our club now has leased. They didn't have the man power available to even take down their signs when they left. We did it for them. I can tell you that as for as Lapland WMA was concerned, there was no "wildlife management" done what so ever. The only project on the whole palce was in cooperation with Jeff Sole and The Nature Conservancy on some natural grass areas that they called glades. This work wasn't done to benifit wildlife ppre sey, but to preserve the rare glade areas that are becoming extinct. Lapland has about 100 acres of these areas, but even there , they haven't had time to restore all of the areas. Lapland has some grouse, but they are not plentiful. The dept. couldn't log this area because it's not dept. owned.

[Ynothirekybiologists]

thought you all would enjoy a big "hello" from jimmy neutron! KDFWR hiring yet? LOL or is that "selecting"?

[Ynothirekybiologists]

thought you all would enjoy a big "hello" from jimmy neutron! KDFWR hiring yet? LOL or is that "selecting"?

[Multidigits]

Selecting or hiring, one of the requirements seems to be that you have some ties to the state of Georgia. Do you qualify?

[Birdman]

Ynot what part of Knott Co. are you from, and how long have you been trying to get on withe the dept.?

[FW OFFICER]

I was interested in the posts here, so I checked into some of this myself. Here is what I found out. I talked with US Army Corp of Engineers personnel (COE) about leased land and what could be done to it / on it. Even though an agency has a lease for the land, be it State Parks or F&W, they can't do anything (habitat improvement, forest management, building construction, State Park quota hunts ect) without approval from the COE headquarters. The quota hunts on the state parks, where the land is owned by the COE, is a three way agreement between the COE, State Parks and F&W. I don't know if this approval comes from the district headquarters or the one in Washington DC. This may answer some of the questions asked here, then again, it may not.

[Birdman]

I don't know who you talked with but th WMA's are agreeded upon when the lease is drawn up, I have the copy on Paintsville Lake and I will asure you and can show you that habitat work and commercial logging was to be done from day one. Someone is pulling your string.

[SlugHunter]

I dont know what district Whitley county is in but the KDFWR hasn't done a darn thing here. I think they have a good handle on the wildlife managemnt part and NOW IT IS TIME for the habitat management!! Improving the habitat will promote all wildlife and make hunting better for everyone.

[dgibson]

I'm curious...did anyone make it to the small game habitat wingdings the KDFWR put on at farms throughout the state? I had hoped to go to the one in my area but the Wife had other plans.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> Were they worth the trip? Any good info?

[mossyhorns]

I attended the one in McCracken Co. They showed us what a field of native grasses looks like. It worked wonders on the rabbits and quail. The fellow had about 120 acres and now has 5 or 6 coveys of quail using it. He killed 43 rabbits off the farm last year. There were lots of good info available.

Bottom line is that the farm bill is providing a ton of money for native grasses and other wildlife beneficial practices. The KDFWR is trying to dovetail its habitat programs into these farm programs so NRCS will foot the bill. It appears to be one heck of a deal.

The best part of this was that Gassett and Day attended and were available to answer questions. This is what the Dept. needs more of! I don't know if any more are coming up -- if there is one in your area, it's worth the trip.

[Birdman]

The meeting at Martha Ky. went well, all the boys were there from Frankfort and I'm sure it was a hard trip for them because they attended George's retirement party the night before and it's about a three hour drive from Frankfort to Martha, on well lets say there wasn't many four lane roads to travel on. The farm was in good shape, Jason Plaxico and others (ASC) put to gather a good show.John Gassett and his staff relayed some pertinent information that should help on private lands. Bryan indicated that there may be money, in the future for timber management on private lands.