The Whole Truth...

[Matt Orr]

To Whom It May Concern:

Since the fact that my dad was appointed to the KDFWR Commission has apparently ruffled alot of feathers, I thought it would be a good idea to clear up some things.

#1 - The Hunt.

The hunt in question was 2 years ago. My father (Taylor) purchased a landowner tag for my grandfather from Ataya about a week or so before the hunt began. My grandfather is over eighty years old and dad knew that it would mean alot to him to kill an elk that came from the same herd they had released on the property he had owned. It was kind of last minute but my father had scouted enough for other people the two months before that it was really a non issue. My dad, my grandfather and I started out trying to get my grandfather a bull on Saturday just like everyone else did. Over the next few days we hunted for a bull that we knew would surpass any of the other animals had killed out west. On that Tuesday morning, grandpa fell while going over a berm and landed on a rock, breaking his collar bone and a couple ribs. His hunt was over. Knowing how hard it is to get a tag, he ask dad if he wanted to use his tag. Obviously, dad agreed.

After spending the next day waiting to hear from fish and wildlife about whether or not the tag was transferable, he got to start hunting on Thursday. The last day of the hunt he got up with the bull he was after. We had seen the bull in a field fist thing in the morning and there was not a clean shot so dad passed. Knowing what the bull had done the previous day, we went down the hollow to cut it off on an old logging road. Finally, after about an hour of listening to the big bull bugle and chase cows while working his way down into the hollow, a few cows started to appear. Dad was positioned about 5 yards to my right, about 2 yards off the logging road. The bull finally worked his way down into the logging road. Dad waited and waited for the shot, when he finally took it the lead cow was about 4 yards from him. He hit the bull twice broadside and once center of the chest. The last shot was at about 3 yards coming straight at him. The bull rose up on his hind legs on the last shot and I thought dad was getting ready to get trampled. Dad could've rushed a couple of shots at it running, but we all knew that was a dead bull. We heard him crash about 200 yards away.

After waiting for about an hour, we took up his trail. As we approached where we heard him fall, we jumped him up. It was still early in the morning so we sat back and waited on him to die. In the afternoon, we got back on the trail again and within another 200 yards we jumped him up again. At that point we called it off for the day. That was the end of the season.

The next day, dad went back to the exact same spot we had quit at the day before. The bull stood up and dad finished it off, so he thought. When he got to it he realized he had made a mistake, It was another good bull but not the same one. He immediately contacted KDFWR and told them what had happened. KDFWR never said to him that what had happened was OK, but that they would get back in touch with him about what they were going to do next. He then rounded up some help and took the bull out of there and to the processor since it was very warm outside and he didn't want the elk to spoil no matter what happened with it.

A couple days later the CO's showed up at dads office and told him that they would have to fine him and confiscate the animal. From there they went to dads house to pick up the cape and antlers and to the processors to pick up the meat. While at the processors dad even paid them for the job. So all told dad had about $3000 in fines and processing and not one complaint about any of it. He made a mistake, he paid for it. For 90% of the people out there that would've been the end of the story, but it wasn't. For the next 3 or 4 months dad spent 2-3 full days a week on foot and horseback looking for that first bull. But he never found it and we will probably never know what happened to it unfortunately. If you add that bull to the rest of the big game animals that he has shot and not recovered over his 40+ years of hunting you will get a grand total of 1.

Numerous people since then have made the comment "Why didn't he just say he shot it the night before and then went back and retrieved it the next day?" My answer has always been "That thought would've never even been considered"

#2 - The Issue

As most of you know already know, the issue isn't that my dad has a KDFWR violation to his name, it's his stance on high fence hunting and game farming. He doesn't agree with either one. That doesn't mean that his sole purpose in life is to destroy that industry, it just means he simply doesn't agree with it. My dad said to me a couple days ago that in his new position it is his responsibility to be diplomatic, no matter what his feelings are. Alot of the people my dad has had dealings with the last couple of years don't understand diplomacy. They basically figure out what it is that is good for them and their buddies and tell everyone else they can shove it. That's obviously really helped them out in the long run hasn't it? Now, instead of thinking that this might be a good time to try and get along, they decide to keep on digging that great big hole that they are intent on throwing themselves into. Pretty soon that hole is gonna be so big that they won't be able to get out of it. Good goin, keep it up. I'll gladly supply the shovels.

Yours Truly,

Matt Orr
The Proud Son of a Poacher :eek:

[AteUp]

Right or wrong, thank you for posting your side of the story.

[12 pointer]

Right or wrong, thank you for posting your side of the story.

same here.

[daking]

Ya know, the really sad thing here is that virtually everyone in the know was aware of exactly what Matt posted here and knew it was accurate. It would be a very interesting exercise to go back through this thread and the one entitled "dirty pool" in the community forum to see who posted what. It would be interesting to see which posters put up just enough of the story to make it as damning as possible and left out just enough details to paint a less than flattering picture. I suspect some people have parsed the story in a manner to create a misinforming slant that would make reporters for the National Enquirer blush. The people who did this knew EXACTLY what happened. They obfuscated the truth by omission. If you take the time to go back and read what was said, you'll figure out what I'm talking about. Think about what kind of guy would do that and think about how much you'd trust anything he'd say.

[buckfever]

Matt - As mentioned by the others, thank you for posting your take on what happened.

As far as I'm concerned, you're wrong to think this issue only involves cervid ranching. Sure, cervid ranchers who don't want your father on the commission are only too willing to bring this issue up, but shooting an elk after the season closed is an issue that stands on its own (four) legs.

My biggest concern when I originally learned about this whole ordeal was that your father used connections/influence to receive favorable treatment from KDFWR with respect to Ky's game laws. According to what you've just posted, however, KDFWR officials only learned about any wounded elk problems only after your father had killed the second elk and turned himself in. If that's the case, there wasn't any favortism shown, and your father paid for his violation. Although the biggest problem is that your father went back out with a rifle after the season closed, I don't believe a game violation under the circumstances you've described should disqualify him for service as a KDFWR commissioner. Many sportsmen have made mistakes before and have been cited for violations.

[daking]

Funny how things work out when the whole truth is told. Sunshine is the best antiseptic.

[buckfever]

Ya know, the really sad thing here is that virtually everyone in the know was aware of exactly what Matt posted here and knew it was accurate. It would be a very interesting exercise to go back through this thread and the one entitled "dirty pool" in the community forum to see who posted what. It would be interesting to see which posters put up just enough of the story to make it as damning as possible and left out just enough details to paint a less than flattering picture. I suspect some people have parsed the story in a manner to create a misinforming slant that would make reporters for the National Enquirer blush. The people who did this knew EXACTLY what happened. They obfuscated the truth by omission. If you take the time to go back and read what was said, you'll figure out what I'm talking about. Think about what kind of guy would do that and think about how much you'd trust anything he'd say.

Terry - If you're trying to help out Taylor, you'd be better off simply letting this die down instead of trying to point the finger at the cervid ranchers as the "bad guy".

All of your posts presume that Taylor's act of shooting an elk out of season is no big deal, and that cervid ranching is what lies at the heart of the matter. Although you state that "the truth is the best antiseptic", it is not beyond reason that folks wouldn't automatically accept Taylor's son's version of the events as independently objective "truth". Personally, I believe what he says is truthful, and I don't believe that this event should keep him off the commission.

IMO, what he did IS a subject worthy of debate, and there are significant questions that still linger. For instance, Skipper, who clearly knew the ins and outs of the situation, made this statement before he got banned again. Obviously, he meant to stick up for Taylor, but his comments caused way more harm than good. All he did was make it look like Taylor would've gotten favorable treatment from KDFWR (deem it a "mistake") simply b/c of Taylor's position.


Taylor reported the incident himself, and initially there were 2 schools of thought on the subject: A: Treat it as a violation and B: Treat it as accidental and move on. Given that the action has been a part of these WMA hunts since the beginning, option B would have likely been the outcome except the knowledge that Lou and his bunch would find out and make an issue out of it. Taylor manned up and took the fine and moved on. Unfortunately, Lou and his cronies can't seem to do that.
Skip Walden
Corbin, KY

Regardless of whether Taylor shot the right or wrong elk, it really bothers me that, according to Skip, the only reason KDFWR decided to cite him was b/c KDFWR was concerned that somebody like "Lou" might find out about it and make an issue of it.

There have been thousands of instances where ordinary sportsmen make "mistakes" when they shoot an extra hen mallard thinking it was a drake or one too many doves. . . . And these are all honest mistakes. Yet, people still get cited for them without exception. In this case, Taylor intended to carry his gun with him and intended to shoot an elk after the season was closed. There wasn't any honest mistake involved, and there shouldn't have been any "schools of thoughts" about letting him off for an honest mistake.

IMO, if you guys want this to go away, let it wither on the vine. By blaming KALA, all you're doing is keeping the issue alive, and as long as it remains alive, Taylor loses.

[2speed]

All i want to know is that can i give my tags to my sons if i don't feel like hunting ??????????????:eek:

[2speed]

I did not know that.....

[trust me]

Buckfever,
You quote extensively from Skippy's post, and then state that it "clearly suggests" Orr had the Dept.'s blessing to go hunting after the season. From reading this thread, I think you would do better to rely on Matt's account, as a first person observer, than on the third-hand account of some website warrior.

Matt's post indicates the KDFWR was contacted only after the second bull was killed.

[quackrstackr]

Folks, quit fishing for info from other places and then dragging it back over here as a point for argument.

If you would like to go to that site and continue the mêlée', please do so.

[Matt Orr]

BF- Thanks for your input. I do agree with the fact that this is not only a cervid farming issue. But I do believe that 95% of it is. If my dad were pro cervid farming, we may have heard a few grumblings but it probably would'nt have even been posted.

Do I fault my dad for taking his gun with him to try and find the wounded bull. Not in the least. I would've done the exact same thing but with hopefully a better outcome. Without a doubt that bull was badly, badly wounded. At that point, I wouldn't fault anyone for doing the same thing. I also feel pretty secure in saying that most CO's out there would agree that someone pursuing a wounded or downed animal should have the right to finish it off, even after the season is over. That's kind of a grey area that would be hard to police, but it would have to be looked at as a case by case basis.

Do I feel as though my dad was given preferential treatment? No. Do I think my dad made a big mistake that he wishes he could take back? Without a doubt. Would he do the same thing again under the same circumstances? Probably, but hopefully with better results.

[buckfever]

Buckfever,
You quote extensively from Skippy's post, and then state that it "clearly suggests" Orr had the Dept.'s blessing to go hunting after the season. From reading this thread, I think you would do better to rely on Matt's account, as a first person observer, than on the third-hand account of some website warrior.

Matt's post indicates the KDFWR was contacted only after the second bull was killed.

Trust Me: Matt's post didn't say whether Taylor contacted KDFWR before he went back out the next day or not. I interpreted his version to say that KDFWR did not give its blessing after it was learned that he had actually shot a different elk. In addition, I knew that Skipper was arguing on Taylor's behalf as his friend, so I didn't really consider his version to be a "third-hand account of some website warrior".

That being said, Elkguy just sent me a PM and told me that Skipper's recount of the events were in fact erroneous. He said that KDFWR had no knowledge that Taylor planned to continue hunting (after the season) for the wounded elk and that KDFWR went out of its way to insure that Taylor received no favorable treatment after the Dept learned about what happened.

Since it appears there was no influence-peddling, I'll reverse course once again and state that this all appears to a massive lapse of judgment which, IMO, shouldn't affect his nomination to the commission. :D

I wish him well as KDFWR commissioner, and hope his agenda includes taking proactive steps to promote harmony amongst all the sportsmen of the state.

As is apparent from these types of threads, there's a lot of fragmented discord amongst the various hunting groups, and we need somebody to take steps to end the self-destructive infighting.

[buckfever]

BF- Thanks for your input. I do agree with the fact that this is not only a cervid farming issue. But I do believe that 95% of it is. If my dad were pro cervid farming, we may have heard a few grumblings but it probably would'nt have even been posted.

Do I fault my dad for taking his gun with him to try and find the wounded bull. Not in the least. I would've done the exact same thing but with hopefully a better outcome. Without a doubt that bull was badly, badly wounded. At that point, I wouldn't fault anyone for doing the same thing. I also feel pretty secure in saying that most CO's out there would agree that someone pursuing a wounded or downed animal should have the right to finish it off, even after the season is over. That's kind of a grey area that would be hard to police, but it would have to be looked at as a case by case basis.

Do I feel as though my dad was given preferential treatment? No. Do I think my dad made a big mistake that he wishes he could take back? Without a doubt. Would he do the same thing again under the same circumstances? Probably, but hopefully with better results.

Matt - I know it's difficult to stay emotionally detached when you feel your own father is being unjustifiably attacked, but I applaud your objectivity and ability to discuss things rationally.

I hope everything works out in everyone's best interests.

[daking]

http://fw.ky.gov/newsrelease.asp?nid=181&NavPath=C105C122C581C641

It is truly all over but the shouting. Some folks will be very happy, some will be in a filthy funk, but it's done. Apparently when the balance got through swinging, it weighed heavier on behalf of Taylor and Doug.

[Matt Orr]

Thanks again BF.

[slickhead slayer]

I have no doubt that if he wasn't an honest man, that if he received special treatment, and that if it wasn't an honest mistake, we wouldn't be here discussing it.

How many people on here in the same situation would have just said they killed the elk the day before? Nobody would have ever known. The fact that he turned himself in when he was in a situation that he could have easily lied about, tells me alot about his character.

The character of a man isn't judged on when he makes mistakes, but how he handles those mistakes.

[littleindian]

I don't know Mr. Orr and hope that he makes an excellent comissioner. Before he was appointed, I had heard that someone with a game law violation had made the top 5. I feel now as I did then. The law needs changing to prevent someone with a game law violation from being comissioner. This change would have no bearing on Mr. Orr. The way the current law reads even a convicted felon could serve. I have always felt that it is best not to put the fox in the hen house. We wouldn't ask a convicted felon to be police comissioner, would we?
The biggest problem I have is that he blatently went after season was closed and his son has stated they would do the same thing again with better results. I am not sure what better results mean. Mistakes are something that we learn from & try not to repeat in the future. For we are all human and fall short of being perfect.

[predator]

The character of a man isn't judged on when he makes mistakes, but how he handles those mistakes.



As is apparent from these types of threads, there's a lot of fragmented discord amongst the various hunting groups, and we need somebody to take steps to end the self-destructive infighting.

I know and have communicated with several people on both sides of this issue, and repect all your opinions, but to me, the above 2 statements say alot.

[EKY.MTN.HUNTER]

So what if Taylor would have found the elk he had shot the day before and finished him off, what was he planning to do after the kill? Wouldn't he still be in the same situation as shooting the wrong elk (killing an elk out of season?)

Was he just going to accept the fines, and poach an animal?

or

Was he just gonna say he found the elk and not mention the "finishing it off" part?

I agree with something Buckfever brought up. I wouldn't say that someone who takes a gun in the woods with them in hopes of finishing off a wounded animal out of season is making an "honest" mistake. Even if he shot the correct bull, he'd still be breaking the law. I have no horse in this race but nobody has really spoken about what would have happened had he shot the correct bull. Wouldn't he still be up s**t creek? In my mind the correct bull and the mistaken bull doesn't really even matter, I see the killing of either one illegal. The mistake wasn't in shooting the "wrong" bull the mistake was in shooting an animal (wounded or not) out of season. Am I wrong about all this?

[BUCKHEAVEN]

EKY.MTN.HUNTER

No you are right. If there something all sportsmen should have learned from all this poaching is not to hunt out of season but even that lesson has not been learned.

Do I fault my dad for taking his gun with him to try and find the wounded bull. Not in the least. I would've done the exact same thing but with hopefully a better outcome. Without a doubt that bull was badly, badly wounded. At that point, I wouldn't fault anyone for doing the same thing.

[weedwalker]

So I take it that it's OK for me to get an elk tag, and it's good for anybody in my family to use? :confused: I wish I had known that years ago. I could have saved a lot of money buying liscenses for my 5 sons. :rolleyes:

[buckfever]

So I take it that it's OK for me to get an elk tag, and it's good for anybody in my family to use? :confused: I wish I had known that years ago. I could have saved a lot of money buying liscenses for my 5 sons. :rolleyes:

No. . . .Taylor bought a "special" elk tag at an auction. Those tags are transferable, as are the landowner tags.

Like deer tags, the $10 elk lottery tags are not transferable.

[weedwalker]

Ok. I missed that part.

[kycowboy]

what i don't get is why he didn't finish the animal off on the day of the hunt he jumped him twice and didn't take another shot I've never been elk hunting but every show I've seen the guide always tells the hunter to take a second shot. He is the comissioner and doesn't know the law's about shooting an animal out of season :confused:

[EKY.MTN.HUNTER]

Do I fault my dad for taking his gun with him to try and find the wounded bull. Not in the least. I would've done the exact same thing but with hopefully a better outcome. Without a doubt that bull was badly, badly wounded. At that point, I wouldn't fault anyone for doing the same thing.


Man, the more I read that the more twisted it sounds everytime....there are so many holes in that comment I don't know where to start.

[Strutter]

Just curious as to what weapon was being used. 2 shots broadside at close range and one in the center of the chest at 3 yards and the elk still doesn't go down. Makes me think I am crazy hunting them with a longbow.

Rob

[raktrakr]

After all the reading Ive come to the conclusion it doesnt matter what MR.Orr did or didnt do, his name would have still been dragged through the mud. Had he just let the elk go he would've been slapped with the "unethical" brand. He got the appointment,GET OVER IT!

[Multidigits]

Interesting reading....especially from BF. Let's see, BF says he understands, and that folks do make mistakes......so, it's really not a reason to disqualify Taylor from serving the Dept., that's laughable, when BF was on the panel of the Strader show when they both had other things to say about another "known wildlife vilolator" who shouldn't be qualified to speak in favor of a simple crossbow expamsion. What's the world coming too? :D

[JDMiller]

Well I vowed to myself to stay from the other thread in the community forums.... but I'd like to throw something into the mix that might actually be interesting and constructive .

Whats everyones take on "Wanton Waste" Laws. Their inacted in most western states but even Florida has it in effect. I personally think their a good thing and wish Kentucky had it in effect.

Heres a definition / regulation from South Dakota' guide....

15. Wanton Waste
No person shall kill, cripple, waste, destroy, spoil, or abandon the edible flesh of any big game animal without making a reasonable effort to retrieve and retain the big game animal in his/her actual custody, at the place where taken and between that place and either (a) his/her permanent residence (b) a taxidermist (c) a common carrier or (d) a commercial processor.
"Edible Flesh" (big game animals) shall be both front quarters, both hind quarters, and back straps but does not include meat ruined by bullet or natural causes.

How would your opinions on this incident with Taylor compare to a state with this law in effect. Take note on... No person shall kill , cripple, waste and making reasonable effort to retreive and retain the big game animal. I'll also add that it would be pretty tough to retreive a wounded animal for meat as the law requires without some method of humainly harvesting the animal. Hence a finishing off shot on a wounded animal.

Theres countless accounts where this law has been enforced in those states with it in effect. Here in Kentucky it would provide some enforcement to those that shoot a deer just for the backstrap and leaving the rest in a road ditch. It also would have an effect on just what is a reasonable effort to retreive a wounded animal... in which was what many are so eager to roast Mr. Orr over.

Just a little something to think about.

[Split_Ear]

Did his fine include the replacement cost of the elk? did he lose his license? anybody know?
Any person who possesses, takes, or molests a wild elk in violation of Section 1 of this Act or administrative regulations adopted under authority of that section shall be fined not less than one thousand dollars ($1000) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5000), or imprisoned for up to six (6) months, or both. In addition to these penalties, the person shall pay to the department an amount not to exceed the greater of the replacement cost of the wild elk or double any monetary gain realized from the illegal activity, and shall forfeit his or her license, or if license exempt, the privilege to perform the acts authorized by the license for a period of one (1) to three (3) years.

[slickhead slayer]

Do I fault my dad for taking his gun with him to try and find the wounded bull. Not in the least. I would've done the exact same thing but with hopefully a better outcome. Without a doubt that bull was badly, badly wounded. At that point, I wouldn't fault anyone for doing the same thing.


Man, the more I read that the more twisted it sounds everytime....there are so many holes in that comment I don't know where to start.

If you shot at a deer the last night of gun season, and he was badly wounded, you wouldn't go back and look for him that next day with gun in hand? I know I would.

[Multidigits]

I remember working for the right to use tracking dogs to find and retrieve wounded deer before the Commission not too long ago. One of the discussion points was to carry a weapon or not after dark and while tracking the deer with the dog. Both acts would have been illegal before the dog tracking change. At that time, Col. Casey stated that his dept. would not have a problem with a hunter dispatching a deer after dark, after the dog found it verses making a trip back to the truck to put the dog up or to retrieve it the next day during legal times. IOWs, the most important factors was to retrieve the wounded game animal. Esentially, that's what Taylor did here, even though it turned out bad.

[Feedman]

I'll reverse course once again and state that this all appears to a massive lapse of judgment which, IMO, shouldn't affect his nomination to the commission. :D


I found this part of your post interesting.

Think about this statement!!! What if he has one of these "massive lapses of judgement" while he is on the commission? Wonder how that will effect hunting and fishing in Ky.

[buckfever]

I found this part of your post interesting.

Think about this statement!!! What if he has one of these "massive lapses of judgement" while he is on the commission? Wonder how that will effect hunting and fishing in Ky.

Yes, Feedman, I understand what you're saying.

Something like this isn't easy to overlook. On the flip side, I personally believe he was actually just trying to recover an animal that he believed he had hit very hard. Although it was not very smart to take a rifle after the season had closed and shoot at another elk without even being certain it was the one he originally hit, I just don't see this on par with shooting an elk from a vehicle off the side of the road.

Given the enormous amount of work he apparently has donated for free, I say let's give him a chance.

[buckfever]

Did his fine include the replacement cost of the elk? did he lose his license? anybody know?
Any person who possesses, takes, or molests a wild elk in violation of Section 1 of this Act or administrative regulations adopted under authority of that section shall be fined not less than one thousand dollars ($1000) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5000), or imprisoned for up to six (6) months, or both. In addition to these penalties, the person shall pay to the department an amount not to exceed the greater of the replacement cost of the wild elk or double any monetary gain realized from the illegal activity, and shall forfeit his or her license, or if license exempt, the privilege to perform the acts authorized by the license for a period of one (1) to three (3) years.

Did Taylor forfeit his license? Was this rule in effect when all this happened?

[buckfever]

Interesting reading....especially from BF. Let's see, BF says he understands, and that folks do make mistakes......so, it's really not a reason to disqualify Taylor from serving the Dept., that's laughable, when BF was on the panel of the Strader show when they both had other things to say about another "known wildlife vilolator" who shouldn't be qualified to speak in favor of a simple crossbow expamsion. What's the world coming too? :D

Do you ever stop lying? Hell, even when I'm agreeing with your point of view about a putative commissioner, you still can't leave well enough alone.

On the Strader show, I never made a single comment about "known wildlife violator(s)", and didn't think it was appropriate or even relevant to the crossbow discussion. In fact, I made reference to that exact point on this forum when the show was being discussed. It served absolutely no purpose to further humiliate the stuttering caller by drawing attention to this fact.

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Did his fine include the replacement cost of the elk? did he lose his license? anybody know?
Any person who possesses, takes, or molests a wild elk in violation of Section 1 of this Act or administrative regulations adopted under authority of that section shall be fined not less than one thousand dollars ($1000) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5000), or imprisoned for up to six (6) months, or both. In addition to these penalties, the person shall pay to the department an amount not to exceed the greater of the replacement cost of the wild elk or double any monetary gain realized from the illegal activity, and shall forfeit his or her license, or if license exempt, the privilege to perform the acts authorized by the license for a period of one (1) to three (3) years.

This law only applies to some citizens!!

[gobbl4me]

The way i look at it he made a mistake a really stupid one at that,but he was man enough to own up to it and face the music. I don't know him and had never heard of him until this forum. It seems to me that there are a few ppl on here that just want to crucify him because they don''t like him being appt as a game commish or he doesn't share the same views as they do.

[Snareman2]

I found this part of your post interesting.

Think about this statement!!! What if he has one of these "massive lapses of judgement" while he is on the commission? Wonder how that will effect hunting and fishing in Ky.

Give him a break man, let it rest. Taylor Orr sounds like he does more for our Sportsmen/women than most fish and game clubs. Is he a one man army, or just so dedicated to the outdoors.

Anyway, your comment about "massive lapses of judgement" is off the wall and out of whack. "Wonder how that will effect hunting and fishing in KY." I thought that there are nine commissioners, that vote on department stuff. Does one person really make that big of difference, when you are talking about nine votes, I don't think it is a big deal.

I don't personally know Mr. Orr, I've only seen him a few times. However, it sounds like he is an asset to the Commonwealth, Department, Sportsmen, kids, groups, you name it. Stop dragging people through the dirt, and lets move on. I hope everybody can find a way to support our leaders. "United we stand, Divided we fall!" I bet Peta loves all this bickerin, name calling, finger pointen, stone throwing, and tear down. Lets build people up, instead of tearing them down and stomping on them.

[uplandchessies]

I don't know the jist (or the facts) of this story, but entering the field with gun in hand after the season has closed and with intent to kill (finish off) is illegal. Should a violator be allowed to serve?... probably not.

[ptbrauch]

To respond to the previous post, how do you prove intent? Had he not "intended" to shoot an animal, it would have been perfectly legal for anyone, including him, to take a gun into the field.

Now on to the bigger picture. The mere fact that what was done is debatable should speak volumes. Life is not black and white. Had the guy gone out with a spotlight at night, shot the animal, and just cut the antlers off, I don't think we'd be having this debate. I think everyone would agree that would be an open and shut case and we'd all be writing the governor.

The man did something that falls in a gray area and turned himself in. When was the last time you've turned yourself in for speeding? Isn't breaking the law, breaking the law?

[Multidigits]

Do you ever stop lying? Hell, even when I'm agreeing with your point of view about a putative commissioner, you still can't leave well enough alone.

On the Strader show, I never made a single comment about "known wildlife violator(s)", and didn't think it was appropriate or even relevant to the crossbow discussion. In fact, I made reference to that exact point on this forum when the show was being discussed. It served absolutely no purpose to further humiliate the stuttering caller by drawing attention to this fact.

Do search on this web site of posts by you and see how many times it comes up, most all by yourself. As for stuttering, I remember your comments to the Commission as being just that....very unprofessional for a polished attorney? :rolleyes:

[Multidigits]

This law only applies to some citizens!!



I'm curious, who's been cited more for wildlife violations -- The new Commissioner Taylor Orr or KALA members? Wonder how many of those KALA violations were amended down from the max and how many got the death sentence. Might need to do a search to see if Lou has ever had any violations in the past?

[buckfever]

Do search on this web site of posts by you and see how many times it comes up, most all by yourself. As for stuttering, I remember your comments to the Commission as being just that....very unprofessional for a polished attorney? :rolleyes:

Again, you make claims that you can't back up after being challenged. This is bizarre. Does it ever occur to you that people might actually notice it when you constantly make up all sorts of lies and then can't prove any of them?

Really though, what difference does all this make?

Kytrapper and virtually everyone else would agree that, like the 3 guys in Perry County, there's a huge difference between Taylor's violation, and a situation where the perpetrator was climbing over fences onto adjoining landowner's property to hunt without permission, and once caught and cited, laughed off the entire affair as "just another cost of hunting". At least in Taylor's episode, it's arguable that he was trying to do the ethical thing. In the latter event, it's just flat out poaching.

[Multidigits]

Again, you make claims that you can't back up after being challenged. This is bizarre. Does it ever occur to you that people might actually notice it when you constantly make up all sorts of lies and then can't prove any of them?

Really though, what difference does all this make?

Kytrapper and virtually everyone else would agree that, like the 3 guys in Perry County, there's a huge difference between Taylor's violation, and a situation where the perpetrator was climbing over fences onto adjoining landowner's property to hunt without permission, and once caught and cited, laughed off the entire affair as "just another cost of hunting". At least in Taylor's episode, it's arguable that he was trying to do the ethical thing. In the latter event, it's just flat out poaching.


There you go again. Maybe you need to look up the word liar and see who's picture is beside of it. And now your saying there are different degrees of poaching.......that's a new one from you. Real funny considering what you've said in the past.

[buckfever]

There you go again. Maybe you need to look up the word liar and see who's picture is beside of it. And now your saying there are different degrees of poaching.......that's a new one from you. Real funny considering what you've said in the past.

Yep, you're right.

I shouldn't have put quotes when I was just paraphrasing the part about the poacher chalking up the fine and poaching violation as "just another cost of hunting".

Here's the direct verbatim quote from the poacher:

"Oh well, that's lif[e]. I charged it off as another expense of hunting. Lord knows I've spent thousands and a couple hundred more isn't going to break me of the habit. See ya."

I apologize to anyone who was mislead by my earlier post.

[Multidigits]

Yep, you're right.

I shouldn't have put quotes when I was just paraphrasing the part about the poacher chalking up the fine and poaching violation as "just another cost of hunting".

Here's the direct verbatim quote from the poacher:

"Oh well, that's lif[e]. I charged it off as another expense of hunting. Lord knows I've spent thousands and a couple hundred more isn't going to break me of the habit. See ya."

I apologize to anyone who was mislead by my earlier post.

You should have appologized for saying I was lying about what you posted. Didn't take you long to find reference to it. And the fine wasn't too bad, not nearly as much as Taylor paid for his mistake. People do make mistakes all the time, thats why they have people like you out there to hightlight them. Good thing your perfect.

[buckfever]

You should have appologized for saying I was lying about what you posted. Didn't take you long to find reference to it. And the fine wasn't too bad, not nearly as much as Taylor paid for his mistake. People do make mistakes all the time, thats why they have people like you out there to hightlight them. Good thing your perfect.

You must be a glutton for punishment. Everything single fact I posted about your wildlife conviction was 100% truthful. You just couldn't keep your hand out of that cookie jar. Hey, it's not like I defamed you with some cockamamie story about you being convicted of "hunting drunk" like I saw you falsely post about somebody else.

What could possibly be spinning around in that noggin of yours to want to single me out in a discussion that has nothing to do with you or me, and and repeatedly draw reference to the fact that you were convicted of poaching???

Oh, I see. . . ."Aha!!! I've got him now!!!! I'll show that BF by posting that he's inconsistent in the way that he views wildlife violations!!!"

Excellent point. Bring that one up the next time it matters at all, like, say, when YOU'RE running for commissioner or some other office, and then we'll REALLY having something to talk about.

By the way, it's "Good thing you're perfect." And no, I'm not perfect. ;)

[gobbl4me]

I see this thread being locked down in the near future.

[JPARKER]

GOBBL4ME, that would probably help us all out.

[DW]

To respond to the previous post, how do you prove intent? Had he not "intended" to shoot an animal, it would have been perfectly legal for anyone, including him, to take a gun into the field.

Now on to the bigger picture. The mere fact that what was done is debatable should speak volumes. Life is not black and white. Had the guy gone out with a spotlight at night, shot the animal, and just cut the antlers off, I don't think we'd be having this debate. I think everyone would agree that would be an open and shut case and we'd all be writing the governor.

The man did something that falls in a gray area and turned himself in. When was the last time you've turned yourself in for speeding? Isn't breaking the law, breaking the law? I would imagine his actions would be enough to prove intent. It took a consious effort to load a firearm and take it afield. It wasn't a accidental discharge from what I've read. So to do the above I believe the burden has been proven. In my mind it is no different than the spotlighting scenerio you provided. One shouldn't be able to pick and choose which game law one wants to follow. JMHO.

[weedwalker]

Probably should have called the CO the night before and told him you had a wounded animal. I'm sure he would have gone out with the man the next day to help find and finish off the elk. That's what I would have done in that situation.

[aceoky]

Give him a break man, let it rest. Taylor Orr sounds like he does more for our Sportsmen/women than most fish and game clubs. Is he a one man army, or just so dedicated to the outdoors.

Anyway, your comment about "massive lapses of judgement" is off the wall and out of whack. "Wonder how that will effect hunting and fishing in KY." I thought that there are nine commissioners, that vote on department stuff. Does one person really make that big of difference, when you are talking about nine votes, I don't think it is a big deal.

I don't personally know Mr. Orr, I've only seen him a few times. However, it sounds like he is an asset to the Commonwealth, Department, Sportsmen, kids, groups, you name it.
Stop dragging people through the dirt, and lets move on. I hope everybody can find a way to support our leaders. "United we stand, Divided we fall!" I bet Peta loves all this bickerin, name calling, finger pointen, stone throwing, and tear down. Lets build people up, instead of tearing them down and stomping on them.

GREAT Post!

Taylor IS a great asset to Ky and all the sportsmen/women and youth herein, some obviously don't want him to even have the chance to prove it though:eek:


Many of them haven't seen a WILD KY ELK much less had a chance to hunt one, much less shoot one; but they're "quick to judge" someone's actions who DID have a tag, HAD shot an Elk and was only trying to recover HIS WOUNDED animal.......ON an "once in a lifetime hunt" no less.(with a VERY short season when compared to other seasons as well, but that fact they're quick to leave out; instead trying to compare a short once in a lifetime hunt to a deer hunt at times!)

He THEN owned up to his mistake(s) and paid the fines levied on him, (which no matter what anyone claims were NOT up to him, so he can't be blamed for what he got handed down, AND I would have to believe his honesty AND coming forward and admitting it "up front" WAS taken into serious consideration )

Some would Still try to place his actions as the same as a poacher who had never bought a tag, never considered the law,seasons or hunting at night and a million other things, when I'd bet MOST here would have tried to find their Elk and end it's suffering just as he did; on such a hunt. (not that some of them would EVER admit it on here)...

It was legally SHOT in season, by a legal hunter with a tag (not a "poacher" hunting despite the laws) for crying out loud....yes after that mistakes were made and were not denied and he paid what he was told to. THAT should be the "end of this" IMHO



I support Taylor I happen to consider him a friend and again congratulate him as well as Doug!

[aceoky]

I would imagine his actions would be enough to prove intent. It took a consious effort to load a firearm and take it afield. It wasn't a accidental discharge from what I've read. So to do the above I believe the burden has been proven. In my mind it is no different than the spotlighting scenerio you provided. One shouldn't be able to pick and choose which game law one wants to follow. JMHO.


It's obvious his "intent" was to finish off an Elk which HE had already wounded DURING legal hours of the season....in my mind that IS much different than anyone who goes out of their way to spotlight, trespass, and otherwise POACH and Intentionally break the law.

"Hindsight is 20/20" it's one thing to READ about an event and make after the fact decisions when it's NOT YOU that was in the situation and having to live with that sick feeling that most of us know, and those who don't will if they hunt long enough.
Any that KNOW will tell you it' s a VERY bad feeling that never really ever goes away. Unless YOU have shot an animal and had that LONG restless night (even though you may have found it the next day and realized the VAST relief that the recovery also brought to you) then I don't think it's possible to even form a real informed opinion on what transpired. IF you've lived through one of those nights, you'll likely realize Taylor did what he felt he HAD to do, both for the Elk and for his "peace of mind".


I'm doubtful that A.) had he (or anyone for that matter) actually finished off a wounded animal they had shot during legal shooting hours/season (after legal hours or next day of the SHORT season's closing)they would be cited, HE got into trouble for shooting the "wrong animal"(an honest mistake that NO one has proven was anything else) and B.) that MOST here would have not tried to do the exact same thing since many have said they would on a deer hunt, hard to believe that they wouldn't do the same (try to end any suffering of an Elk) I believe MOST here would try to do what HE did try to do.

Most (if not all hunters) would be SICK, knowing they'd wounded an animal and not only failed to recover it but to at least KNOW it was not suffering...also MOST would take their chances(slim as I happen to believe they are of actually being cited IF they finish off the wounded animal).. and end it's suffering IF they found it even after legal shooting hours or the next day after season....it's simply the "right thing to do" when YOU placed the animal in that situation.

Now some may try to deny it, (possibly to cast stones Taylor's way) but it's wise to remember that hunters live in glass houses and probably shouldn't be casting those stones...

[BuckUp]

You know, the only one we haven't heard from is Mr.Orr!
Why not let him tell the story. Maybe there wont be as much speculation as to what happened!!!

[JPARKER]

Maybe everyone should just give him a decent chance to do his job as a commissioner, then if you dont like what he's done when his term is up some of the blemmish free sportsmen on here should run for the position.

[turkeytalker]

You know from the start i was under the impression that Mr. Orr had prior consent to go finish off this animal,maybe i missed it but have yet to read about it.

If he did not get prior consent then that could lead a person to believe that maybe he was "Gonna fill HIS tag".I've talked to more than a few hunters around this state and yet to find one that have went out after the season was over with a weapon pursuing wounded game.

In the KY HUNTING and TRAPPING GUIDE under basic rules for hunting it clearly states "You can only hunt when the season is open for that species".Can it be said any clearer?

His first responsibilty as a hunter is a clean kill,which apparently he screwed up badly.

[NonTyp]

Probably should have called the CO the night before and told him you had a wounded animal. I'm sure he would have gone out with the man the next day to help find and finish off the elk. That's what I would have done in that situation.
This is the best point that has been made in this train wreck thread! I met Taylor at the league convention and he seems to be a good man. Looks to me like he made some bad decisions but haven't we all. I'm not going to join sides here until Taylor proves who he really is and then I'll make my own mind up!

Multi, I don't know why you feel the need to gouge BuckFever every chance you get when you don't like to be gouged yourself?:confused: You are just splashing in the puddle and IMO are not an asset to Taylor for behaving this way!

[grouser68]

Maybe everyone should just give him a decent chance to do his job as a commissioner, then if you dont like what he's done when his term is up some of the blemmish free sportsmen on here should run for the position.

Wisedom in these words! /\ One smart post! Kudo's JPARKER!
l
l
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[aceoky]

"You can only hunt when the season is open for that species".

I agree, where we do not agree though is "finishing" off of an animal YOU wounded (during season/legal hours) isn't hunting,... it's the "right thing to do", and NO where it does it state in the guide this is NOT permitted.....nor have I EVER heard of anyone being cited for doing so, (and I'm quite certain it's not so uncommon as to have never occurred and been known about)

There is NO legal difference in finishing off an animal after legal shooting hours than the next day after season is closed, and since the KDFWR stated this was better (using a tracking dog for deer) than to let the animal suffer until legal shooting light the next day, it's absurd to think it better to wait until next Elk season when odds are more than great you'd NOT have a tag anyway...

The LAW is in NO way written such as to encourage anyone to EVER just let wounded game die (or worse be eaten while alive by 'yotes)
YES the seasons close and it's illegal to "hunt" for non-wounded game, but there is NO place I've found yet where the law clearly defines what can or can't be done in the case of wounded game (much less Elk) ...(and it's certainly NOT in the guide; and I don't believe it's in the regs either)


Now anyone IMO who calls doing what is in the best interest of the animal, (not to mention to hunting in general and it's image to the non-hunting majority of the public) "poaching" when Taylor had obviously obtained an Elk tag in a legal manner, was legally hunting when he shot the Elk in season, it's pretty clear that while mistakes WERE made, "poaching" was not one of them.


It seems rather clear that some here want to make a case out of something we all do , make mistakes, even when he did what most I believe would have tried to do (recover the wounded animal that THEY knew that they'd shot) some seem more than intent on making it more than it was by calling an honest mistake "poaching" ........I have to wonder how some here seem to "know" more than the CO who were in charge of the case?

I agree with him going after the wounded ELK, I can only imagine the sick feeling he must have had so deep in the pit of his stomach, the dread, then seeing the wrong Elk, mistaking it for HIS wounded Elk, wanting so badly to end it's possible suffering the acted.....then it was too late and after the fact when the realization it was indeed a different Elk...

NO one here has ever shot the "wrong buck" by mistake, of that it's obvious, they could never make a mistake (and IF they did in fact, odds are high that they wouldn't ever admit it , much less on here)...Taylor made a mistake, didn't try to deny it, in fact confessed , paid his fine, so WHAT is the point of even bringing it up?

He is as human as anyone here, done MORE than 99% in the entire state for so many, yes, humans do make mistakes, once done, it' s how the individual handles it that matters! IMHO, Taylor owned up to his, tried his best to make it as right as he could (turned himself in when he realized his honest mistake) I have to wonder how many here "raking him over the coals" would have done the same???

By the way some have made it sound (and I was aware of the whole thing soon after it took place being here ) you'd think he never bought a tag, never concerned himself about the law, which is simply NOT the case.
He legally wounded an Elk , went after it, thought he found it , wanted to put it out of it's suffering , who here can fault him for that?

Now some may find fault as a human he made a mistake in his haste to end it's suffering and shot the wrong one, but that's a far cry from "hunting out of season" and certainly is NOT "poaching". And should not take away from all of his decades of hard work for US in Ky IMO.

Some say a hard working selfless man who made a mistake (that most were not even aware of prior to some bringing it up) doesn't deserve to be seated over a MISTAKE!!! Well, I hope those people are perfect and NEVER make a mistake that just may affect their future and careers!:eek:

*I* won't try to put down anyone making an honest mistake, while I detest poachers, spotlight hunters , trespassers etc.

Odds are good IF .......YOU hunt and fish long enough, sooner or later YOU will make some honest mistake that may or may not get YOU into trouble....I don't think MOST here would EVER intentionally do wrong, but humans DO make mistakes, which when done are done, there is NO going back.......I just hope for your sakes when that time comes, if it's found out and posted here you get better treatment!

[JDMiller]

Back several pages ago on this thread I posted about "Wanton Waste" laws that some states have. Most that I've seen are written in some context to..."No person shall kill , cripple, waste and must make a reasonable effort to retreive and retain the big game animal".

I'll admit I dont understand the legal interpetation on reasonable effort but I would guess that if you made a poor shot on a game animal on the last day of the season and conditions waranted waiting until the next day to locate... regardless of the season closing ..by law you are required to make a effort to find that animal.

The next part of it.... "retain"... would be kinda hard to do if the animal had'nt expired but obviously badly wounded. To me... you would have to have a weapon to dispatch the animal. In this situation... which I'm not sure about... you possibly would be legal to use a weapon to finish the animal off.

I know Kentucky doesnt have this law into effect but it would clear up a lot of gray area such as this with Taylor. We all also need to make light what some consider a horrible poaching incident is required by law in some states. I'd be open to some honest interpetation of it by some of our legal experts.

South Dakota's

15. Wanton Waste
No person shall kill, cripple, waste, destroy, spoil, or abandon the edible flesh of any big game animal without making a reasonable effort to retrieve and retain the big game animal in his/her actual custody, at the place where taken and between that place and either (a) his/her permanent residence (b) a taxidermist (c) a common carrier or (d) a commercial processor.
"Edible Flesh" (big game animals) shall be both front quarters, both hind quarters, and back straps but does not include meat ruined by bullet or natural causes.

[aceoky]

JD , I agree, and Alaska has a similar law to the one you've posted (VERY strictly enforced with HUGE fines ) btw).

I don't think MOST sportsmen/women in Ky would just waste a game animal (unlike many poachers who remove the antlers and leave the rest)...:mad:

Also I believe most here to be law-abiding persons, however IF they even thought that they might get into trouble in such a situation, I'd still think most would not let an Elk just suffer because the season closed "last night".

To many it's a "spirit of the law VS the letter of the law" type thing. Season is closed, However the animal was wounded DURING the legal season.......do you just "let it go" OR do you take your chances with the legal system and do what you feel is "right" in that situation?

I've still not heard ONE case of anyone being charged or cited for finishing off a wounded animal they'd shot legally after legal shooting light OR a day after season closed????
I would think IF the CO after checking (if contacted) and found evidence to support one's story of it being legally shot (no matter the legal weapon gun or archery) the CO wouldn't bother with it knowing full well, (as most ARE hunters themselves) that "sick feeling" of knowing you made a bad hit OR the animal was simply refusing to die when "it should have"...

This was an Elk hunt....hard to compare with other hunts with much longer seasons, and much easier to get to hunt.
I think that also not only matters to the hunter but to the KDFWR as well, I have to think they don't want wounded Elk running around and dying and not being tagged and claimed. I also certain they're very well aware of the "time table" in comparison to for example deer hunting.

[NonTyp]

Ace, it is illegal to finish off an animal after the season is closed! No gray area there! Being wounded and dying after season closes happens to many birds and animals every year in hunting season, it is a reality. I understand Taylor's friends defending him, no doubt a good guy. This arguement could go on forever!

[turkeytalker]

I hunt deer entirely with a bow,so if i shoot a deer Jan. 21 and don't recover it i should feel obligated to take my bow out Jan. 22 and HUNT for the wounded animal even though a positive id may be impossible?

What if i decide i'm a pretty bad shot with a bow and really want to finish it,CAN I TAKE A FIREARM?

[JDMiller]

Ace, it is illegal to finish off an animal after the season is closed! No gray area there! Being wounded and dying after season closes happens to many birds and animals every year in hunting season, it is a reality. I understand Taylor's friends defending him, no doubt a good guy. This arguement could go on forever!

NonTyp... I agree on this going on forever but I figure if everyones going to argue over spilt milk ... I'd like to learn a little from it. These "wanton waste" laws are in a lot of states and specifically specify a big game animal... not birds or small game. They also allow co's to ticket individuals for shooting and taking the backstrap and leaving the rest. Their not a bad thing and if some want to clear up the gray area ... in my opinion is a way to pursue it.

[quackrstackr]

JD,

For what it's worth, there are wanton waste laws already in place in KY for migratory birds.

[JDMiller]

I hunt deer entirely with a bow,so if i shoot a deer Jan. 21 and don't recover it i should feel obligated to take my bow out Jan. 22 and HUNT for the wounded animal even though a positive id may be impossible?

What if i decide i'm a pretty bad shot with a bow and really want to finish it,CAN I TAKE A FIREARM?


I dont know... thats why I'm asking.

As for a positive ID.... I think if its mortaly wounded you would know or you would be in the same situation as were talking about. Blood ...bloody beds... weak .. crashing into things ...would be a good sign. Anyone that bowhunted long enough has expierienced this at some time or another. A poor placed shot ..no matter how hard we try is inevitable at some point in time. What you do after it.... including making every effort is what will hinge on recovering. Sometimes its best to walk away...give a night or day to increase the odds a little.

[JDMiller]

JD,

For what it's worth, there are wanton waste laws already in place in KY for migratory birds.

Quack.... I wasnt aware of it. I dont duck or goose hunt and my wife done warned me about anymore hobbies.:D

[aceoky]

Ace, it is illegal to finish off an animal after the season is closed!

Please prove that to all of us......

No gray area there

YOU hit and wound an animal at "the end of legal shooting light", last day of the LEGAL hunting season..... go get a tracking dog, find the animal , (season is closed AND it's now after legal shooting light when you finally find the wounded animal) SHOW us where it's "written as LAW that you can't finish off the animal AND claim it"...... I can't seem to find it anywhere in the guide Btw.....

It has Nothing to do with "defending" a friend", it's been called "poaching" here, (it's NOT because he did buy tags AND shot the Elk during legal shooting times AND in season)

I want to see proof NOT only of this "law" some are claiming that exists but also of someone actually being charged for what I have posted (above), I don't think it's "law" and I certainly don't know of anyone ever being charged (much less convicted)

And don't "TRY" to justify it by saying "birds and animals die every season from being wounded" after it's closed. THAT (if true) doesn't make it "right" NOR does it mean it's something we should sound like we're "proud of, OR support " in any way!


It's my opinion (knowing several CO'S) that IF your story is true and you actually shot the animal during legal times, they would NEVER cite you for making EVERY effort to retrieve (and finish is need be) YOUR animal that was wounded in season......now IF I'm incorrect, I want some real proof of it,

IF they did cite you, I'd bet you could win the case (if you fought it) , since you were a legal hunter WHEN you wounded the animal and made EVERY effort to end it's possible suffering........

In fact the KDFWR has already stated in a public meeting they were in favor of the use of tracking dogs AND the finishing of wounded game (even if it's after legal hours) rather than wait for legal "light" the next day, I'm supposed to believe they have a different opinion on Elk , just let them suffer 'till next year??? Sorry I don't think so!

But for the sake of discussion, IF you're correct, how did Taylor get KDFWR permission to try to recover/finish HIS elk???? :)

Again we are talking Elk here (short season and sometimes VERY hard to Kill, Jack O'Conner said they were harder to kill than ANY grizzly he'd ever killed )

I honestly don't think anyone here can clearly say in that situation (much less with Elk) what is or isn't legal......I'd bet the true circumstances would be the deciding factor, and clearly in THIS instance, the KDFWR granted Taylor the chance to try to recover/ finish his Elk....had he not made the mistake of shooting the wrong Elk NONE of this would even had been brought up! Period.

Not that it should have anyway...IMO

This wasn't brought up for "what's right and wrong" it was brought up in an attempt to try to make a "poacher" out of someone who has done much more than ANYONE trying to ruin his reputation has ever tried to do, no more and no less. It's a shame that anyone would do such things , but the proof is here (and in the other thread) to prove that is exactly what it's really all about.

One can easily read several posts right here where it's been debated and decided it's the "right thing to do" to try to recover and dispatch game YOU have wounded........NOW it's an "issue"???? No it's not, the man who the Gov chose AND appointed isn't "liked" by a few , thus they went after his reputation with all they had a mistake at that! Instead of saying all the time, $$$ , work with YOUTH hunters he's done (donating Elk tags HE bought to them, he was featured on Ky's V show guiding a couple teen hunters not too long ago....Last Dec IIRC a cow hunt)

[NonTyp]

Does season closed not mean anything to you Ace? Don't want to sound smart but it's kind of like NO HUNTING!!

[predator]

Back several pages ago on this thread I posted about "Wanton Waste" laws that some states have.

I know Kentucky doesnt have this law into effect but it would clear up a lot of gray area such as this with Taylor. We all also need to make light what some consider a horrible poaching incident is required by law in some states. I'd be open to some honest interpetation of it by some of our legal experts.

South Dakota's

15. Wanton Waste
No person shall kill, cripple, waste, destroy, spoil, or abandon the edible flesh of any big game animal without making a reasonable effort to retrieve and retain the big game animal in his/her actual custody, at the place where taken and between that place and either (a) his/her permanent residence (b) a taxidermist (c) a common carrier or (d) a commercial processor.
"Edible Flesh" (big game animals) shall be both front quarters, both hind quarters, and back straps but does not include meat ruined by bullet or natural causes.

Maybe it's time this was given a closer look.

[aceoky]

Does season closed not mean anything to you Ace? Don't want to sound smart but it's kind of like NO HUNTING!!

Key word "HUNTING".........I'm NOT claiming one can just hunt after it's closed.......I AM stating that I believe you CAN retrieve wounded game (and finish it , if need be that was shot during LEGAL times, even after that "time limit" expired")



Again IF I'm mistaken I want real proof, since Taylor got permission to try to locate and get his wounded Elk after season AND the KDFWR said in a PUBLIC meeting they'd rather wounded game be dispatched after legal hunting hours when the tracking dog found it INSTEAD of waiting for legal shooting hours the next day.......combined, I have very good reasons to doubt this "idea" that "over " is ALWAYS "OVER"........simple as that!

Regardless, most of us here WOULD take our chances and do the right thing ....to debate that is of no use, and I'm betting NO one would be charged, much less convicted. Certainly there must be plenty of cases to prove that I'm mistaken?

I can respect someone who would risk themselves(fines etc.)and NOT let the animal suffer more and longer by using the EXCUSE " I didn't look for it because season closed after **I** Wounded it" I happen to firmly believe I'm not in a minority on that either. I can't believe that there is ONE hunter who would advocate letting a wounded animal suffer and die, over THEIR mistake, shot etc. And I hope they wouldn't!

[turkeytalker]

Maybe it's time this was given a closer look.


If "Wanton Waste" laws mean that its ok to kill a different animal than you wounded I'm definately against it.


JD described earlier what you'd look for in a wounded animal,Mr. Orr did not only hunt out of season he also killed a highly prized game animal out of season.

This thing has a whole mouthful of teeth if you think about it!If he hunted his wounded bull after season and shot it he should face some pretty stiff penalties including consideration for his post,HOWEVER he killed an ELK out of season PLAIN AND SIMPLE,JD shouldn't he have known what to look for?What type of rifle was he using when he shot His bull three times?

SOMETHING JUST AINT RIGHT

[quackrstackr]

Quack.... I wasnt aware of it. I dont duck or goose hunt and my wife done warned me about anymore hobbies.:D

Stay far, far away. Your wife and your wallet will thank you for it. :D

[slickhead slayer]

If "Wanton Waste" laws mean that its ok to kill a different animal than you wounded I'm definately against it.


JD described earlier what you'd look for in a wounded animal,Mr. Orr did not only hunt out of season he also killed a highly prized game animal out of season.

This thing has a whole mouthful of teeth if you think about it!If he hunted his wounded bull after season and shot it he should face some pretty stiff penalties including consideration for his post,HOWEVER he killed an ELK out of season PLAIN AND SIMPLE,JD shouldn't he have known what to look for?What type of rifle was he using when he shot His bull three times?

SOMETHING JUST AINT RIGHT

It was no doubt not his INTENT to kill a different animal than he first shot, otherwise he wouldn't have turned himself in. Intent is very important when discussing a violation.
I have asked several times, but nobody wants to answer. If you shoot a deer last day of season, and come back the next day, and its their die'ng, would any of you dispatch the deer? I know I would.

[aceoky]

If he hunted his wounded bull after season and shot it he should face some pretty stiff penalties including consideration for his post

He HAD permission from the KDFWR to do just that to locate and retrieve his Elk.....which IS what he set out and intended to do.....not complicated, NO "special treatment' , WHY do you "think" (in your opinion) he should face "pretty stiff penalties including consideration for his post (appointment)" for doing what he was given permission to do by the KDFWR???

highly prized game

Which he should have just let suffer???

out of season

An honest mistake which HE turned himself in over and paid fines for.


What "isn't right here" is some trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, and what's worse so many acting as if THEY can't make honest mistakes themselves, let's hope IF they ever do, they get the same treatment here as Taylor has gotten!

Easy to sit and talk about someone most don't know anything about (or what he's done for Ky.) but not so easy to ask what if ***I*** "Messed up someday"??? NO one who knows him would even begin to think that he'd done anything intentionally wrong, but those of you who don't even know him , or his work, find it awfully easy to keep throwing stones while YOU are also in glass houses....

Let's REALLY hope none of you "oh so perfect" people out there, that can't let an honest mistake (paid for btw) "go" NEVER having already filled YOUR buck tag, accidentally shoot a doe that turns out to be a buck.(low light, fog, you were SURE it was a doe.......you're now a certified poacher to many here)...
Or by mistake misses a slot limit or keeps an unsized fish that you measured wrong or the whole host of things that any human can do without meaning to break a game law......Some here will surely give you a very hard time IF you do!!! Human error is simply not tolerated by the "perfect crowd".......simple as that!

[aceoky]

I have asked several times, but nobody wants to answer. If you shoot a deer last day of season, and come back the next day, and its their die'ng, would any of you dispatch the deer? I know I would.

I've not only answered it I've stated that WE (here) have had that debate and MOST said that they would........(and deer are not a "once in a lifetime hunt" for most as Elk generally are).....

WHY is this "different"? It's not, it's simply an ill-fated attempt to take a good man and trash his reputation by "acting" like more "took place" than really did. .

Those of us who actually LIVE in the Ninth know more than those folks want known , and it's interesting while some are "dwelling" on ONE honest mistake, the same ones didn't bother to tell anything of all the Positives Taylor has contributed not only in his time, but his $$$ and other ways HE has made Ky better! They don't want that part talked about!

THEY didn't want Taylor to win, now they want to try to "trash" him for doing so "fair and square", simple as that.

Time will PROVE what kind of person he in fact is, and they'll look foolish for thinking that while they are "perfect" and harping on one mistake, Taylor will be out working for THEM as well as the rest of us!

I have the utmost confidence in Taylor AND his doing what is best for the Ninth! Most of the folks speaking out don't even know him, never met or spoke with him at all, they don't have half the details, but still think he was a poor choice???? Lucky for ALL that the informed made the choice, and not based on "net postings" of unfounded and unproven allegations......(good ole boys club etc.)

We all KNOW there are some here who despise the RMEF, thus they MUST oppose Taylor, for his position with them here! THAT is what this is "really all about", otherwise they'd never even brought it up! He made mistakes, paid for them......and that is "that"......should have been the "end of it", it wasn't because they have other agendas , NOT connected with his mistake....

[Multidigits]

JD,

For what it's worth, there are wanton waste laws already in place in KY for migratory birds.


Federal law here. State law mirrors the Federal statute.

[Multidigits]

Does season closed not mean anything to you Ace? Don't want to sound smart but it's kind of like NO HUNTING!!

He was NOT hunting. He was in the process of retrieving an animal wounded during a legal hunt. Had he been hunting, he likely wouldn't have been in the exact spot where the elk was down the evening before. You also can't "hunt" at night, but I know dozens that have retrieved deer after legal shooting light has gone out. I'm sure you do also.

[Multidigits]

Maybe it's time this was given a closer look.


Wanton Waste law has been asked for in Ky. on several occasions in the past. The main objection from the Wildlife Dept. is that it may decrease the doe harvest somewhat, with more restrictive meat recovery requirements.

[maxcam]

Let's REALLY hope none of you "oh so perfect" people out there, that can't let an honest mistake (paid for btw) "go" NEVER having already filled YOUR buck tag, accidentally shoot a doe that turns out to be a buck.(low light, fog, you were SURE it was a doe.......you're now a certified poacher to many here)...
Or by mistake misses a slot limit or keeps an unsized fish that you measured wrong or the whole host of things that any human can do without meaning to break a game law......Some here will surely give you a very hard time IF you do!!! Human error is simply not tolerated by the "perfect crowd".......simple as that!


I dont think anyone believes they are anymore perfect than the rest ACE.....Maybe we just dont have the impundence to to seek out a commissioners seat after making such a bad mistake!

The fact of the matter will always remain that regardless of the intent, the result of the elk that was supposedly shot 3 times at very close range by an eye witness account was never recovered. Even after looking for it some 30-45 days on foot and horseback.....Your arguements of doing the moral and ethical thing dont wash in this case because that elk was never put out of its misery and for me to consider that as the motives involved only makes the situation worse because the ends were not met by the means....

The fine that resulted did very little to compensate the the cost of the elk (plural) lost to the shareholders of the states resources by this illegal activity......If the KDFW gave its blessing for this alledged elk that was wounded to be harvested after the season was closed as you alledged then it would appear that all that would have had to have been done to make restitution was replace the cost of the resources and chalk it up to an honest mistake.......If in fact that would have been done and hunting privelages would have been removed for 2-3 years as is customary in cases like this then I dont think there would have been a care in the world that this took place......The debt would have been paid in full.....

No matter how you want to slice it or dice it this situation reeks of favortism paid to Taylor Orr by the KDFW......You stating things like all he has done and all the money he has spent only enforces what many already know and that is what is standard procedure for the average hunter in Kentucky is not really what is the norm for the insiders to the department........

Maybe I am wrong in my opinion.....Maybe we should post a poll to find out !

[kentucky_redneck]

accidentally shoot a doe that turns out to be a buck.(low light, fog, you were SURE it was a doe.......you're now a certified poacher to many here)...


i may be wrong but arent you sopposed to know your target before you pull the trigger. Yes i probably would have a gun the day after to retrieve my animal and yes i could have made the same mistake as this guy has.
I wonder if he will or would look at my mistake as a mistake or make an example out of me knowing he did the same thing. and no ACE this isnt ment twards you.

[Multidigits]

I can guaruntee you that Taylor has more than paid the Dept. for that elk and a lot of other ones out there. when you've done as much for any game animal, then you have the right to step up and tear this man down. So far, we've seen nothing but hot air out of you.

[BuckUp]

Why doesn't Taylor just step out from the shadows and tell everybody the real story!! He's a grown man, i'm sure he can defend himself.It doesn't sound to me like his friends are doing him much justice.:rolleyes:

[Multidigits]

Give him a call and ask him....or attend the next Commission meeting and ask him about it.

[maxcam]

I can guaruntee you that Taylor has more than paid the Dept. for that elk and a lot of other ones out there. when you've done as much for any game animal, then you have the right to step up and tear this man down. So far, we've seen nothing but hot air out of you.


Poachers taking up for poachers doesnt impress me much.....Go sit on back down and re examine yourself Tom.......

Besides that your approach to explaining this sounds like Taylor expected a return favor for his volunteer work.....Is this the elitist mindset that has formed by volunteering to help the dept?.....You do some work and you expect preferential treatment in return......

[Multidigits]

Hey Dougy.....you've been real quite on the other selection.........how's that one sit with you and yours??? :D

[SmokeyBear]

Well the way I see it is like this....
Mr. Orr may or may not be an outstanding man, I don't know him myself. However, he obviously violated state regulations by going out with the intent of shooting a game animal that was not in season and actually did shoot a game animal that was not in season. That much is obvious. I say he went out with the "intent" to shoot a game animal that was not in season because if he did not have the intent to do so he would not have taken a hunting rifle with him. People are saying things like "it was the right thing to do" and "it was the ethical thing to do"...I don't see it that way. The ethical thing to do for our wildlife is to obey the game laws that are in place to protect the game we hunt!!! Like another person has already said on here, the right thing to do would have been to notify the KDFWR of the situation and ask them to send a CO with you to find the animal and dispatch it if need be. I know that hindsight is 20/20 and all, but to me that would have been obviously the way to handle the situation. Again, I don't know Mr. Orr and I'm not in any way whatsoever trying to say he is a bad person or some crazy poacher, but in my opinion he was a poor choice to be appointed to a commissioner position for a department that is charged with the enforcement of the very regulations that he admittedly violated. That just makes no sense to me at all.:confused: But then again, not many things that go on in the political world of Frankfort do make much sense.;)

[predator]

If "Wanton Waste" laws mean that its ok to kill a different animal than you wounded I'm definately against it.

tt-I do not this this is the intent of the law.


Wanton Waste law has been asked for in Ky. on several occasions in the past. The main objection from the Wildlife Dept. is that it may decrease the doe harvest somewhat, with more restrictive meat recovery requirements.

Again, maybe this ought to be looked at a little harder.

[turkeytalker]

This started out as a political bash fest against the Gov..I 100% support his next bid and most here knows that,however he made a very big mistake in this appointment.

Suffering is tragically a part of hunting or living,his bull died or he should be extremely concerned about his ethics,YES I'VE MADE SOME BAD ARCHERY SHOTS,but not one went unrecovered.My problem is with a firearm how can you shoot an animal at close range three times and expect him to be up and around the next day?That's a very hard point to argue.


He broke the law and yes POACHED,killing game out of season or after shooting hours is poaching.He should consider resigning and keep doing the great works i've read so much about on alot of different national sites.

[predator]

Stay far, far away. Your wife and your wallet will thank you for it. :D

JD-qs is 110% right on this one. It can get in your blood BAD, REAL BAD!!

[ril7572]

Hey Dougy.....you've been real quite on the other selection.........how's that one sit with you and yours??? :D


Ouch....That's gonna leave a mark:D:D

[Multidigits]

Again, maybe this ought to be looked at a little harder.


I don't think so, but you make the call if you want. For example, I don't see much sense in saving deer necks and briskets and ribs, and a few other choice treats....such as leg muscles. IF you enact a wanton waste law, it'll likely include ALL EDIBLE meat has to be salvaged. At that point, you end up with freezer over load and it starts to effect the deer harvest.

[predator]

This started out as a political bash fest against the Gov..I 100% support his next bid

I'm with you on this 100%, Ernie has done a GREAT job.

[aceoky]

Like another person has already said on here, the right thing to do would have been to notify the KDFWR of the situation

Which not only did HE do, but was granted permission to go and try to find/recover/dispatch (if need be)....already posted.

I say he went out with the "intent" to shoot a game animal that was not in season because if he did not have the intent to do so he would not have taken a hunting rifle with him.

Again WITH permission from the KDFWR (the ones WHO set the seasons no less).....

[SmokeyBear]

He broke the law and yes POACHED,killing game out of season or after shooting hours is poaching.He should consider resigning and keep doing the great works i've read so much about on alot of different national sites.


I agree 100%.

[maxcam]

Which not only did HE do, but was granted permission to go and try to find/recover/dispatch (if need be)....already posted.



Again WITH permission from the KDFWR (the ones WHO set the seasons no less).....


Who gave their blessing within the KDFW for this to happen? Maybe that is where the finger needs to be pointed if your defense is he asked and he got.......

[aceoky]

My problem is with a firearm how can you shoot an animal at close range three times and expect him to be up and around the next day?That's a very hard point to argue.

In your "opinion" it's a "hard point to argue", exactly how many Bull Elk have you shot three times with a rifle at "close range" to make that statement?

FWIW, Elk have been shot "at close range" multiple times out west with a .338 MAG and went MILES.......documented and easy enough to confirm.....Elk can be and often are VERY tough critters.

It's a very serious oversight to try to base knowledge of one game animal upon another (black and grizzlies for example)

[predator]

I don't think so, but you make the call if you want. For example, I don't see much sense in saving deer necks and briskets and ribs, and a few other choice treats....such as leg muscles. IF you enact a wanton waste law, it'll likely include ALL EDIBLE meat has to be salvaged. At that point, you end up with freezer over load and it starts to effect the deer harvest.

Back several pages ago on this thread I posted about "Wanton Waste" laws that some states have. Most that I've seen are written in some context to..."No person shall kill , cripple, waste and must make a reasonable effort to retreive and retain the big game animal".

"Edible Flesh" (big game animals) shall be both front quarters, both hind quarters, and back straps but does not include meat ruined by bullet or natural causes.

I do not see any mention of necks, briskets and ribs in JD's post about Edible Flesh!

If I'm to understand you right, the Dept's postion on this matter is that is is better to waste game than to make every reasonable effort to retreive it because it MAY reduce the doe harvest some?

[aceoky]

Who gave their blessing within the KDFW for this to happen? Maybe that is where the finger needs to be pointed if your defense is he asked and he got.......


Whatever......:rolleyes:


I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here (but I have an idea) let's see some proof of "special treatment" something we've waited long enough for already..

[SmokeyBear]

Which not only did HE do, but was granted permission to go and try to find/recover/dispatch (if need be)....already posted.



Again WITH permission from the KDFWR (the ones WHO set the seasons no less).....


He may have notified the department, but a CO should have been the one doing the "dispatching of the animal" if need be, which apparently was not even close to being needed done since the animal has never been recovered.
I am not trying to attack Mr. Orr here. It is obvious that some people on here have personal issues with him and his close friends on here will never see anything wrong with what he done. I'm just saying that it is beyond rediculous to appoint someone to a commissioner position with the KDFWR when they not only violated game laws but did so in a VERY public manner. Now what does that say to the public???:confused:

[turkeytalker]

Who gave their blessing within the KDFW for this to happen? Maybe that is where the finger needs to be pointed if your defense is he asked and he got.......


This is dead on,if he was given permission to go out without a CO then we have a problem.I've stated this all along.

[maxcam]

Whatever......:rolleyes:


I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here (but I have an idea) let's see some proof of "special treatment" something we've waited long enough for already..

I posted up in the elk forum if anyone else has ever been allowed to follow up on a wounded elk after the season ended and still no one has come forth....I can put a similar post up in the General Hunting Forum if you would like and we could go from there.....However with all the debate that this has generated I believe we can assume that it has never happened.....

If you need further proof of special treatment go back through the archived press releases on the KDFW website and see how many poaching convictions have gone with out revocation of hunting previlages....

[aceoky]

e broke the law and yes POACHED,killing game out of season or after shooting hours is poaching.

Again I've asked how many times now to prove that it is WHEN the animal is wounded by the hunter during legal seasons/times....still waiting, IF you're so correct it should be very easy to post up the Reg...

Also "according to you", IF the KDFWR were to hold a "cull hunt" out of the normal season, the hunters they asked to do the culling would also be poachers?? (they would be killing animals "out of season" but with KDFWR permission, same as Taylor, except they wouldn't be trying to recover a WOUNDED animal as Taylor WAS doing)..

Also for at least the third time, you're simply wrong the KDFWR already stated at a public meeting it WAS NOT a violation to shoot a wounded animal located after legal shooting hours (as you've once again tried to claim) NO responsible person would let an animal suffer when they KNOW they wounded it and were able to locate said animal.........I"m quite certain the KDFWR doesn't expect that either, though some continue to state "as fact" without ANY proof they're correct.

Part of the tracking dog discussion WAS about finding wounded animals after legal shooting hours.....it was decided to be allowed and better than making animals suffer for legal light.......simple as that....STILL you make the claim it's "poaching" to do so??:rolleyes:

[Matt Orr]

My dad didn't get permission from anybody.

[aceoky]

.

If you need further proof of special treatment go back through the archived press releases on the KDFW website and see how many poaching convictions have gone with out revocation of hunting previlages....

I'll tell you what "never happened" Taylor was NEVER convicted of a "poaching violation" as you are trying to allege here.....(and I suspect you KNOW that fact)...

You're "trying" to compare different situations all together (and to those hunting without tags they'd bought no less). I don't think anyone can make a case they're even close to the same thing either...though some continue to try it anyway!

[maxcam]

Legal shooting hours versus out of season are totally different arguements so strike that one off the list.....It now seems you can also strike off the list the KDFW giving their blessings to go out and retrieve the animal.( see above post) ....Lastly a special hunt as you describe would require a commission meeting (regular or emergency) with regs in place in order to occur......

So tell me Ace what was he sighted for?

[aceoky]

i may be wrong but arent you sopposed to know your target before you pull the trigger

Yes (and already covered) You KNOW it's a deer,and are "sure" it a doe (otherwise you wouldn't shoot not having a buck tag) but it's low light, fog and you don't see the "barely legal antlers" , so "now" you're a poacher? Not a human who made an honest mistake (and then turned yourself in as he did )...

Again this is NOT about that incident (already paid in full ) it's about agendas, vendettas many things but not about a human error made and paid for , I feel sorry for anyone who can't see that fact.

[SmokeyBear]

My dad didn't get permission from anybody.

Just wondering if you saw this post aceoky? You were so quick to point out to me that he did get the permission.

[turkeytalker]

Hey ACE,

If you're trying to be Mr.Orr's friend then maybe the old saying "WITH FRIENDS LIKE THESE,WHO NEEDS ENEMIES" falls into play.

Until tonight i was currently unaware of my rights as a responsible hunter:eek:,mind you i will go as high as possible tommorrow to check you'r FACTS.


I have never shot an Elk,but if i ever get the oppurtunity it will be done with a bow.Just gotta make sure i do my part to begin with.

[SmokeyBear]

[quote=aceoky;443396]I'll tell you what "never happened" Taylor was NEVER convicted of a "poaching violation" as you are trying to allege here.....(and I suspect you KNOW that fact)...
quote]


Then why was he fined and why did he pay a fine???

[maxcam]

Ace when you make statements like vendettas and agendas you need to post your facts........

What agenda is being pushed other than a no poacher on the commission agenda?

[BuckUp]

My dad didn't get permission from anybody.

Explain this Ace, please.

[aceoky]

1.Legal shooting hours versus out of season are totally different arguements so strike that one off the list.....It now seems you can also strike off the list the KDFW giving their blessings to go out and retrieve the animal.( see above post) ....

2.Lastly a special hunt as you describe would require a commission meeting (regular or emergency) with regs in place in order to occur......

3.So tell me Ace what was he sighted for?

1.) NO it's not ! HOW is it "more legal" to shoot an animal after LEGAL shooting light? BOTH are just as illegal, but NEITHER is addressed for a WOUNDED animal in ANY of the regs I've seen.......and I'm still waiting for someone to show me where they are....

2. ) not relevant here, the point IS the KDFWR has the authority , as your point also proves (though that wasn't what you had wanted it to do) I don't expect (nor does anyone else ) them to hold any meetings on individual happenings beyond a hunter's obvious control. Thus it's obvious they DO have the authority to use thier own discretions on individual circumstances, just as a CO can and does probably on a daily basis.

3.) You seem to be so "up on it all" why not tell us?
I'm not going to do that for you.
He was NOT involved in "poaching" he had tags, wasn't trespassing, spotlighting or any OTHER form of poaching, and I suspect you know this already.

Your "point" that he has done so much for Ky. doesn't help your stance IMO in any way. It's all too obvious what this is REALLY about. NOR does it "prove any special treatment" at all despite what you'd like for it to do. It DOES prove he's qualified for the position the Gov appointed him to!

MOST will realize that IS why he got the nod over others some had hoped to get the job!

[aceoky]

Explain this Ace, please.

Originally Posted by trust me View Post
Buckfever,
You quote extensively from Skippy's post, and then state that it "clearly suggests" Orr had the Dept.'s blessing to go hunting after the season.

Most of the rest has been deleted but that shows where that information had came from, with it not being refuted for so long, I took it as true (uh-oh a human mistake, now maybe I'm a poacher too):rolleyes:

[aceoky]

[quote=aceoky;443396]I'll tell you what "never happened" Taylor was NEVER convicted of a "poaching violation" as you are trying to allege here.....(and I suspect you KNOW that fact)...
quote]


Then why was he fined and why did he pay a fine???



If it was " a poaching violation" post it up........

[SmokeyBear]

Sometimes I can't help but wonder what the weather is like in Never-Never Land.........................:D Some people live in there own little world and in their own version of "reality".

[SmokeyBear]

[quote=SmokeyBear;443415]



If it was " a poaching violation" post it up........

I was of the understanding that that is what this entire thread has been about..........the poaching violation of shooting the elk the day after elk season was closed.....................:confused::

[aceoky]

i will go as high as possible tommorrow to check you'r FACTS.

By all means please do so.


I have never shot an Elk,but if i ever get the oppurtunity it will be done with a bow.Just gotta make sure i do my part to begin wit

But yet you "think" that it's a "hard argument" that anyone can shoot one three times with a rifle and them still move on out? I have to believe you have "some" to yet learn about Elk and hunting them before you set out after one with anything especially a bow, they're not whitail deer nor close......:eek:

[turkeytalker]

Way too many people on this thread are looking for an excuse to prove that this was the ethical thing to do.

[aceoky]

After all the reading Ive come to the conclusion it doesnt matter what MR.Orr did or didnt do, his name would have still been dragged through the mud. Had he just let the elk go he would've been slapped with the "unethical" brand. He got the appointment,GET OVER IT!

................Exactly!

[BuckUp]

I can't understand, nor has anyone explained why Taylor himself wont post an explanation. :rolleyes:

[turkeytalker]

[quote=aceoky;4434 anyone can shoot one three times with a rifle and them still move on out? I have to believe you have "some" to yet learn about Elk and hunting them before you set out after one with anything especially a bow, they're not whitail deer nor close......:eek:[/quote]


Yep,i'm sure you're right.ABOUT THIS

[aceoky]

[quote=aceoky;443429]

I was of the understanding that that is what this entire thread has been about..........the poaching violation of shooting the elk the day after elk season was closed.....................:confused::

Let's see now, "poachers" buy tags? Turn themselves in? WE have serious poaching problems in E. Ky, so most of KNOW that is never the case......your words have thus came back to haunt you.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder what the weather is like in Never-Never Land......................... Some people live in there own little world and in their own version of "reality"

Backatcha (see above)

[maxcam]

Poaching :
1. transitive and intransitive verb catch game illegally: to catch wild animals or fish illegally on public land or while trespassing on private land


That is the definition of poaching ACE......To illegally take wildgame from pulic land.....In this case that means going on a WMA and illegally taking wild game after the hunting season was over.....

Tags are like a drivers lisence. They expire on a givin date do they not? So when he was out the morning in question he really didnt have a valid tag did he?

[SmokeyBear]

So aceoky you are saying the only way someone can actually "poach" is by going out without a license and/or tag and just start shooting animals????

[aceoky]

Yep,i'm sure you're right.ABOUT THIS

I'll tell you what ELSE I'm "right about"

This thread is not and was never about his mistake made and owned up to.
He paid his fine in America that is ALL that is ever expected.(it's over and finished)
He IS the Commissioner of the Ninth , some don't like it at all;(and almost every single one of them are not in the Ninth anyway) MOST are very happy that he is!


It's simply amazing how so many people can spout off "holier than thou" attitudes NOT knowing the area, the Elk or the terrain involved. Not to mention the man himself!

[maxcam]

Lets see if I understand you right ACE......The man goes out on his own kills the wrong elk gets a citation for it and then runs for the commission and you want to call all of us Holier than Thou? :rolleyes:

Here is another definition....


Agenda:

3. personal motivation: an underlying personal viewpoint or bias
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifOf course she's in favor, but then she has her own agenda.

[aceoky]

So aceoky you are saying the only way someone can actually "poach" is by going out without a license and/or tag and just start shooting animals????

Don't be any more foolish than you've already shown us......please! That is absurd!

HOW many POACHERS are caught and convicted for Elk violations that actually HAD AN ELK TAG??? Be sure to let us know the results of your research on that....:rolleyes:

Maxi likes to bring up the Perry County bunch, compare what they did.......then what they "paid" and what they STATED afterwards.......it's not hard to see the vast difference, but again that was NOT the reason for these threads being started......(the other one in particular) some people are simply sore losers and as posted (quoted) above, NO matter what he'd done it's obvious those that are would have tried to bash him. Just as so many of the same have for some time bashed the KDFWR , (which the vast majority of Ky sportsmen/women know are doing an excellent job, but like Taylor won't BOW to their will)

Like I said I feel very sorry for anyone who believes otherwise.

Just because someone on a forum calls someone else a poacher doesn't mean it's true........no matter how much they wish that it did!

[Matt Orr]

Taylor himself won't post an explanation because I don't think he's even ever been on a computer before. Kinda hard to post one when you probably would barely even know how to turn the computer on. Anything ever done on the computer for him is done by my mom.

[turkeytalker]

[quote=aceoky;443449]I'll tell you what ELSE I'm "right about"



He IS the Commissioner of the Ninth , some don't like it at all;(and almost every single one of them are not in the Ninth anyway)


Born in Somerset,spent my childhood in Monticello,still hunt there every season for every critter.

I stayed out for a reason early on,looked like the Gov. sucks thread to me,but as i read on it became much more.

I don't know him and it sounds like he has done great things,but it also sounds like he got a slap on the wrist for a crime he committed.You can't spin it any other way ACE and you'r doing more harm for the man than good.65% of my family members live in Monticello and all is not well especially when the Dept. is cracking down on people WHO COULD BE ACTING IN SELF DEFENSE,against a bear.

See where this could lead?

[aceoky]

call all of us Holier than Thou?

NO Maxi not "all of us", only those who think it's better to let an animal suffer than to end it's suffering AND/OR those who think they themselves can't ever make mistakes, and thus hold everyone to a "too high standard"......which sounds exactly like "holier than thou" to ME.....IMO

WHY not admit, what this is REALLY about maxi??? Not too long ago MANY here stated they'd do the exact same thing (finish off a wounded deer after season), HOW many of those same people have NOW said that it's "poaching"???

Pure hypocrisy.....and worse! To let an animal suffer that YOU wounded is FAR worse than finishing it off ONE day after season (or two hours after legal shooting light) PERIOD! MOST hunters would agree, and his SEAT has nothing to do with that ......IF it' s "good enough" for most of us HERE who said WE would do it, then to try to trash Taylor is beyond absurd IMHO

[aceoky]

[quote=aceoky;443449]I'll tell you what ELSE I'm "right about"



He IS the Commissioner of the Ninth , some don't like it at all;(and almost every single one of them are not in the Ninth anyway)


Born in Somerset,spent my childhood in Monticello,still hunt there every season for every critter.

I stayed out for a reason early on,looked like the Gov. sucks thread to me,but as i read on it became much more.

I don't know him and it sounds like he has done great things,but it also sounds like he got a slap on the wrist for a crime he committed.You can't spin it any other way ACE and you'r doing more harm for the man than good.65% of my family members live in Monticello and all is not well especially when the Dept. is cracking down on people WHO COULD BE ACTING IN SELF DEFENSE,against a bear.

See where this could lead?

I'm NOT trying to "spin" anything at all.


I find it absurd that anyone would condemn a hunter for going after a wounded animal he'd legally shot period.

I also DO NOT agree that a bear that is a threat to ANY human deserves to live, and the family member doing the killing should NOT be charged for protecting himself OR his family period (do a search for bear and my nick and see IF I've stated that many, many times)...