Any Ky history readers out there???

[Larry Carter]

I read too much. Lots of the old Ky stuff about the settlement days and early statehood. One thing I've noticed is a shortage of references to elk in Ky. So far only one dairy entry mentioning an elk. Hunters recorded kills [to feed the early pioneers] mention deer,bears,turkeys [Sky---one flock described as covering 2000 acres[:)]],buffalo and small game. Any one know of any writings about early Ky elk?? Or were they never very common??? [?]

[ksp965]

Larry, I too find early Kentucky history most interesting. Do you read the Kentucky Explorer, published in Jackson, KY? I read one book that said the last Bison killed in Kentucky was killed near Cumberland, Harlan County, KY on Creech Ridge, ( To the best of my memory). I think it may have been a book about Capt. Benge, the half breed killer that terrorized South Western Virginia and Eastern Tennessee in the late 1700's.

[GSP]

I read the KY Explorer too. A great magazine if you like KY history.
Larry have you checked up on any background on the naming of towns like Elkhorn City?
From the readings I have done, seems the big game of choice was always buffalo. Usually just the tounge.[xx(]
Interesting subject you have here. I'll try doing some digging too.

[Larry Carter]

Nope haven't looked at place names,Elkhorn Creek,Elkhorn City or those kinds. Mmmmmm......what kind of monkeys were Ky natives?? They couldn't name Monkeys Eyebrow for a sorry old exotic.

[ksp965]

Letcher County has an Elk Creek that, from local legend, was named because dogs chased an Elk over the cliffs located at the mouth of the Creek 100 years or so ago. It is my understanding that the Bison of early Kentucky looked altogether different than the Buffalo of the plains. Does anyone know if there are drawings or pictures of what the eastern Bison looked like?

[Larry Carter]

I've seen some old engravings of eastern bison. Nothing much different in physical appearance that I could see. I remember Jack O'Conner writing his grandmother had a buffalo robe from a Ky killed animal.

[GSP]

I don't remember where I read it, but the "woods" buffalo were said to be smaller than the plains buffalo. Don't know if it true or not. I do remembering reading this.

[GSP]

http://www.otsego.org/prca/articles/eastelk.htm

Larry, this touches of eastern US. I found another short article that said North Georgia had elk but they were wipped out by 1770.

[Larry Carter]

I would expect eastern bison to be somewhat smaller sized based on range conditions but general structure is the same to my eye.
Rick, good reference. There are quite a few different sources siting disappearance of elk for unknown cause. Like the Georgia herd they vanished in parts of British Columbia in the 1700's. I used to think Ky was covered with elk in the pioneer days but find few references to them in period literature. Several old tally sheets from big hunts or settlement meat harvests never mention an elk. I don't know maybe they were harder to hunt or maybe they never existed in large numbers. You'd think a large animal like that would get some mention if only to say we didn't get one. Some month long hunts get maybe 100 bears,400 deer 50 bison and listed small game like turkeys,pigeons,coons and possums but no elk.
Maybe place names like Elkhorn were noteworthy because so few elk existed at that time. Anyway it is interesting hunting that stuff down in old writings. Anyone know about the only Indian D. Boone was recorded to have killed? Sure ain't like TV.

[Larry Carter]

Dang Adam! We weren't having the ribs till Friday.[:)] Oh!and Rick--- don't find any Ky reference to just using the buffalo tongues. Think that was a western deal from the slaughter days.

[GSP]

pigeons[?][?] I thought those were imports?

The mention of toungs was from the readings of long hunters coming into this area. I don't remember the referance I read on it, but there was mention of shooting a buffalo for either the tounge or the hump.

I've been digging around trying to find elk referances for the 1700 & 1800's, not coming up with much. I wish Flintlock54 was active here, I've heard he is under the weather, he may know of some referances. HOG may of actually hunted some of these![:o)]

About the woods buffalo I mentioned, I remember the readings that said they were smaller than the plains buff. The book I may remember this from possibly could have been my 7th grade history book, <i>"The History of KY</i>, though it would shock me that I learned something in school. We did cover a lot of this then and I have done much readings on my family tree. Several of these things were mentioned, though I can not find any elk referances.



Not to get off track, here is a great story to print and read about buffalo.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

..........now I gotta start counting ribs..........[:o)][:o)][:o)][:D]
I guess I'll have to break out the .45-70---[:D][:D]

[mossyhorns]

I read somewhere where a D. Boone went on an elk hunt around hazard and took a 6x6 in less than one day's hunting. Said he won the ticket to the hunt in a card game in Frankfort. He was accompanied on the hunt by Obidiah Grimes and Jeremiah Hensley. I think this was the historical account that was used to justify the reintroduction.

[Valley Station]

Go to Goggle, search last elk killed in Kentucky. There are sveral references elk and buffalo.
As I recall , last elk killed in Letcher county, 1847; last elk in Christian county was 1837 , last buffalo in Hart county , 1800.[V]

[Larry Carter]

I'll head to google in a minute. First pigeons: these old pigeons in barns are imports. In the early days the huge flocks of passenger pigeons still existed. Odd to read about the sky being so dark with birds that chickens would roost. Been thinking awhile that those flocks might have impacted forest opening with roost areas. They did kill the trees with droppings which should make the vegatation at those edges super high in nutrients.
Ky did have some other birds that are gone now--parakeets and heath hens. Should I mention grouse in WMA's ?[;)]

[RDL270]

Glsd to see there are other history buffs out here. I too remember reading we had the woods buffalo and they were smaller then the plains. Said the Indians would set controlled burns to help the grazing and keep the cane breaks from taking over. I'll have to dig that up in my old books. How does one subsribe to the KY Explorer? That sounds like my type of magazine.

[GSP]

http://kentuckyexplorer.com/nonmembers/KEhome.html

[ksp965]

RDL270, its a great magazine published 10 times a year. You should be able to find a copy at you local Double Quik on the rack where they keep the car trader magazines. Pick up a copy and see what you think.

[Feedman]

they had a history of elk in kentucky at the Elk and Bison farm in LBL. Don't remember the exact dates that they said elk were killed out in Kentucky. They did have some history on them.

If you can read this, Thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, Thank a Soldier.

[Larry Carter]

Update. Still find no record of more than an elk or two at anytime in Ky. Even the indian recollection in the Draper papers don't mention elk as food source.[:(] Mabe they were just classed as "deer"??

[Larry Carter]

Commie deer??

[glenn]

Great Book:

"The Hunters of Kentucky"
Subtitle: A narrative History of America' First Far West 1750- 1792

Author: Ted Franklin Belue

ISBN #0-8117-0883-7

This book is a historical perspective of the white men that first entered, explored, and thrived in the area now known as "Kentucky." Yes, Daniel Boone is mentioned, but this had so much more. Should be available in any bookstore.

Glenn

[ksp965]

The book, "The Hunters of Kentucky", is available on Barnes & Noble's web site for $29.95. Just search under its title. www.barnesandnoble.com

[GSP]

Amazon- $20.97 just ordered it.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0811708837/ref=ase_webshaping-20/002-2687718-5925612?v=glance&s=books

[Larry Carter]

Thought for the day: Ky place names with Elk might be because it was a notable occurance. Like " Look Joe a danged elk horn! first one i seed since i's left virginny".

[ksp965]

Thanks GSP, I ordered the book and another one to get the free shipping. You forgot to tell us about the program where you could notify them of a friend who wanted the book and get both get a discount.

[GSP]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ksp965</i>
<br />Thanks GSP, I ordered the book and another one to get the free shipping. You forgot to tell us about the program where you could notify them of a friend who wanted the book and get both get a discount.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


I noticed that and started to list some e-mail addresses to them, then I thought better and decided not to, I didn't want them to start blasting folks with tons of e-mail. It ain't worth $2.00. [:)]
I ordered Simon Kenton book to get the free shipping also.

[ksp965]

Got my book in the mail yesterday. It looks interesting. I'll start it as soon as I finish the one I'm reading now.

[GSP]

I got mine last Wed. I've started. Larry, the referances of just cutting the tongues out of buff is in this book too. BTW, you may want to contact the author, Ted Franklin Belue. He is a prof at Murrary. He may have some elk info.

[ksp965]

Larry, you might find this directed to your orginal inquiry:

"Filson wrote of Ohio River catfish that exceeded 100
weight and Kentucky River salmon of thirty weight. He
described the abundance of mullet, gar, perch, rock fish
and eel. Equal numerous, he said, were geese, duck,
turkeys and pheasants. Filson said a buffalo hunter
told him of seeing 1,000 bison at the Blue Licks, a
crossing on the Licking River in what is now Robertson
County. Apparently there were similar numbers of deer,
<b>elk,</b> bears, rabbits, squirrels, racoons and opossum."

Illegal Odyssey, 220 Years of Kentucky Moonshine, by Betty Boles Ellison. Miss Ellison footnoted her statement as being from:
Crowgey, 5. John Filson, The Discovery, Settlement and Present State of Kentucky, (Glouster, Mass., 1962), 25-28.

Funny how our separate reading interests seem to have a lot in common, huh?[;)]

[Larry Carter]

Poor FIlson also describes MOOSE in his writings

[Wildcat]

The "red" deer you read and hear of is the whitetail deer in their "red" summer coats. Daniel Boone was a market hunter after the deer's red coat and that's what first led him onto Kentucky. Back then the most highly priced deer coat was one with white spots, yep fawns. A fawns coat would bring the same as 3 regular deer summer coats.

[broadside]

I read the roadside historical sign at Stamping Groung last Spring. I like to stop and read these when I can, I find them very interesting. It stated that when the pioneers came to the area that the ground was "stamped" bare from the enormous number of bison in the area.
By the way Elkhorn Creek runs through there.

CAIN'T HAVE NOTHIN

[Larry Carter]

No doubt there were many more bison than elk in Ky. Wildcat, European red deer are similar to our elk. Antler form is a tad different. European "elk" are what we call moose. Still find very few references to elk in Ky during settlement times. My opinion if we get to that 10,000 population Baker spoke of the last commission meeting we'll be ten times higher in elk numbers than existed in Ky during the entire 1765--1810 time period.