KDFWR Encourages Antlerless Deer Harvest

[Finn209]

Kentucky Afield News
From KY Dept. of Fish and Wildlife Resources fw.ky.gov
October 24, 2003 For more information
contact
(800) 858-1549
For immediate release

KDFWR Encourages Antlerless Deer Harvest as Statewide Deer Firearm Season
Opens November 8

Frankfort, KY, October 24, 2003 - Kentucky's modern gun deer season
will open Saturday, November 8, throughout the Commonwealth and wildlife
biologists who manage the state's deer herd are encouraging hunters to take
as many antlerless deer as they legally can.
At the onset of the deer archery season in early September, Forest
Systems Coordinator Jonathan Day, of the Kentucky Department of Fish and
Wildlife Resources (KDFWR), expected the statewide herd size to be in excess
of 800,000 animals.
"We'd like to have a harvest of 120,000 or so to help keep herd
numbers stable, and taking more antlerless deer than antlered bucks is key,"
said Day.
"Doe harvest is important in herd management and to the goal of
providing better class bucks out there," the biologist explains.
Taking a sufficient number of antlerless deer helps balance the
herd, control growth and can increase the quality of the buck population.
Fewer antlerless deer reduces competition for living space and food, and
increases productivity. Hunters who may not have personal need for venison
from more than one deer are encouraged to consider donating the extra meat
to Kentucky Hunter's For the Hungry, or share it with family and friends.
Kentucky's season offers ample opportunity to take multiple deer,
and Day hopes hunters will do just that, especially in Zone 1 and 2 counties
where herd densities are higher.
One change in season regulations this year is that any deer with
visible antler, except button bucks (male fawns), is considered a legally
antlered buck for harvest recording purposes. Hunters are permitted to take
one legally antlered deer per license year, unless participating in a public
land quota hunt or hunting on special federal lands hunts.
All hunters are reminded that wearing visible hunter orange clothing
on the head, back and chest is required when any deer firearms season is
open. Recording deer taken on a hunter harvest log before moving the deer,
and calling the automated telecheck system to report harvest is mandatory
for all successful hunters. Harvested deer must be reported by phone by
midnight of the day the animal is recovered, and the check-in confirmation
number for each deer must be written down and retained with the hunter
harvest log while afield during the entire season. The toll-free deer
check-in phone number is 1-800-245-4263.
Persons who take their deer to a meat processor must include their
confirmation number, name and telephone number on a carcass tag which proves
the animal has been reported as the law requires, and that identifies who
owns the deer. Deer must be checked-in and bear a check-in confirmation
number, along with the hunter's name and phone number, before leaving the
possession of the hunter who took the deer for any reason.
During opening weekend of the modern gun deer season, hunters who
have questions about any requirements or procedures may contact the KDFWR
Information Center from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Eastern at 1-800-858-1549.
Personnel can assist in answering questions about deer season.
Lastly, hunters should remember that trespassing is against the law.
You cannot go onto private property for any reason without first receiving
permission from the landowner or tenant. It is the responsibility of every
hunter to know the boundaries of the property on which he hunts, and respect
those boundaries accordingly. Ignorance is not an excuse.
For complete hunting season information, obtain a copy of the
2003-04 Kentucky Fall Hunting & Trapping Guide. This publication is
available at all license outlets, from the KDFWR Information Center, and on
the web at fw.ky.gov.


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[Multidigits]

Cool!...they found 200,000 more deer since the start of the season! Should be plenty out there for us to shoot at. go get 'em!!!

[mossyhorns]

Hey multi! If Gov. Patsy could hire the people that count the deer to ballance the budget, he could take on two maybe three more girlies.

[Wildcat]

Lastly, hunters should remember that trespassing is against the law.
You cannot go onto private property for any reason without first receiving
permission from the landowner or tenant. It is the responsibility of every
hunter to know the boundaries of the property on which he hunts, and respect
those boundaries accordingly. Ignorance is not an excuse.


Wonder how many people will take this seriously. Some people think they can just hunt anywhere.

[kyarcher]

They may encourage the taking of more does but I myself want more than four deer per 100 acres that the Ky F&W wants. With my farm being 158 acres that means only six deer. Maybe thats why I've not seen but two deer from a stand since Oct 3rd.

[Highbow]

FINN, I'm sorry but I can't agree with any of the numbers that Mr. Day has given out.He doesn't have a clue to actual deer numbers in KY in my opinion and this eradication of does in east KY has gone way too far. Somewhere along the last four years someone has forgotten that for deer hunting to be fun for adults and kids you < First must see deer and you must have control of poaching to help keep the herd growing. Reckless management of some areas has resulted in very low deer numbers that is not what hunters wanted, we want deer in our fields and woods and the chance for kids to kill a deer.

[Multidigits]

Don't shhot the messanger! Appreciate the news, there Finn. Thanks!

[Finn209]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Multidigits</i>
<br />Don't shhot the messanger! Appreciate the news, there Finn. Thanks!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

thanks Multi.......just passing along the news releases that come out........I try not to have a personal opinion of them..........just like to post them for the sportsmen and women to see..........feel free to discuss them openly

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[Highbow]

Finn I wasn't throwing any of that at you, I think you understand that.

[Finn209]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Highbow</i>
<br />Finn I wasn't throwing any of that at you, I think you understand that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Highbow, no problem.......I understand when I post news releases that some won't be agreed with.......heck, I may not agree with some myself...........I know you guys realize that I'm just passing them along

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[MontyM]

I'm starting to question the emphasis on taking does. I have tried to stay focused on taking does unless I see bullwinkle that would be put on the wall. I really don't like the four deer per 100 acres.That doesn't seem right. One of the things that keep me going back into the woods is seeing deer. I just don't know if the current plan is working. What do you guys think?


"You can't grill it till you kill it"
Ted Nugent

[joekat46]

We live in a Zone 1 county (Marshall) and have doe all over our subdivision. Half the neighbors feed them, the other half hate them. When gun season comes along I'm going to head across the lake to LBL and just bowhunt to avoid the opening day circus a Saturday gun opener causes. If I chose I'll hunt some TVA land behind the house later in the week. You would all be surprised at the increasing number of anti hunter, anti doe shooters that are now living and voting in western KY[:0]. It's a no win situation. The big bucks are around be are usually only seen in the headlights long after dark. They are some smart "big boys".

[kyhuntsman]

I agree with the extra doe tags. The number of big bucks spotted has increased, or at least in my personal experience and that of the hunters I have spoken with. You need to control the deer herd otherwise it will become too big and big bucks will become a thing of the past due to lack of food.

I believe the knos what they are doing, sit back and give them a chance. I am seeing some of the same comments regarding the new PA restrictions and it is paying off as well.

So, to summarize sit back and enjoy the ride. You'll like the results!
Matt

[kyarcher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kyhuntsman</i>
<br />I believe the knos what they are doing, sit back and give them a chance. Matt
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

kyhuntsman....sorry but I have sat back and watched what they have done to my deer population. Was seeing 15-20 deer in food plots until Garrard went from zone 4 to zone 3 in 2000. Last year the MOST I saw from a stand was four deer. This year is no better so far. While scouting the food plots in August and Sept which were two acres of soybeans and one acre of alfalfa the most I saw was a whopping three deer. Now the bean fields are in winter wheat and peas and your lucky to see any. I spend between $500-$1000 per year on fertizler and seed for my food plots and sure want to have more than 6 deer on my 158 acre farm.

[Larry Carter]

Guys, I see in some of the agricultural literature where Dr's Gassett and Day have to explain what they are doing to reduce the deer herd. Still lots of farmers complaining about too many deer.
Kyarcher, from experience on my property I've noted drastic changes in deer travel routes related to crops planted on adjoining properties and new housing and the associated dogs. Yesterday found a fresh rub in a fencerow that hasn't had a rub in at least ten years. I attribute that change in travel pattern to the adjoining two houses being vacant [ they took their bunch of dogs with them].

[kyhuntsman]

kyarcher, Do you have cameras up taking pictures at all hours? Your deer could have gone nocturnal? Are you in all areas at all times? They could be just over the holler when you are on the other side. I guess what I am saying is that just because you do not see them does not mean that they are not there.

Matt

[Bowcrazy]

Nuff said...

[rlb165]

Originally posted by Kyhuntsman:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>I guess what I am saying is that just because you do not see them does not mean that they are not there.
</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Matt, (or anybody that wants to jump in) for the sake of discussion, let's completely discount sightings as an indicator of the # of deer in a given area. Is there any point at which you would think that the local herd isn't up to snuff, and maybe does don't need to be harvested in that area?

What other factors besides sightings would you factor in?

Richard

[aceoky]

With that in mind.....I would stress, that they(the biologists)have much more knowledge than I have...that's what they are payed for....maybe the deer numbers are too low(for now)...maybe not.....but who's to say that in 2 years or ten...we won't be happy that they are calling the shots??????? Kind of like putting money into the bank....sure you can take it out and use it now......or wait until it's worth much more....isn't it the same thing?????? Do without now for what is much better later on???

<hr noshade size="1">
I'd rather be lucky than good any day!!

Reloaders Haul Brass!

[Highbow]

Western KY is not like southern or eastern KY , be glad you have deer while you can.

[Boss Gobbler]

I think a lot of the problem is the majority of overpopulated deer are on unhuntable land. I can see more deer driving a golf course than a month of hunting. I think I will manage my land for my enjoyment not what the department thinks. I would rather increase food and shelter than decrease deer sightings.

[Wildcat]

Wait for the season totals to come out at the close of deer season.

I've been talking with friends who live in other states and so far Ky, Tn, Ark, Miss, Al, and Ga is down in deer killed so far this season. One friend who hunts a lease about 50 miles outside Memphis spend all week at his lease and only saw 4 deer the entire time.

I hunted LBL for 5 days Oct 12-17 and the only deer I saw was in front of my headlights going to where my stand was.

When KDFWR first put in the Zone System they tried to explan what it was and how it worked, I don't remember where they said they were trying to reduce the deer herd but they said they were trying to keep the numbers stable.

If any farmer really had a problem with the deer all they ever have to do is call KDFWR then after looking the place over and they agree he does have a problem they either give him a permit or do a cull themselves. Any of you ever been on a cull project?? It's not a pretty picture for a deer hunter. I went on one once down in Miss and I'll never go again, they don't hunt from treestands. There was 6 of us and 4 of them were county CO's. They go at night using spotlights and shoot from the back of the trucks then they shoot every deer they see, buck, doe and fawns and left them where they lay. In one night the 6 of us going though 7 farms than covered almost 2 square miles we shot a total of 121 deer. That was 10 years ago and I've never been on one since. They don't announce any cull project because they don't want a crowd around, they talk to the farmers and the people that live around those farms. Every state game dept does this every year but they don't do it everywhere. Some farmers are just running off about the deer where there is not a real problem but there are some places that have real problems.

If any of you know of people that are shooting deer and not reporting them, PLEASE TRUN THEM IN!! They are poaching. How many high power rifle shots have you heard this weekend?? My 75 year old Mother heard 7 though the day, I guess it would be safe to say that's 7 deer not reported.

[kyarcher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kyhuntsman</i>
<br />kyarcher, Do you have cameras up taking pictures at all hours? Matt
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes I have two deercams and three trail monitors going 24/7.

[Strutter]

Not real sure what has happened with the deer on my farm in Garrard Co but 2 years ago, I started using 2 cams and would get a roll of pics every 3 or 4 days. This year, it took me 5 weeks to get a roll taken up. Had one pic with 4 deer in it and haven't had that many in a pic since. Did get 3 pics of 3 different bucks but haven't gotten a pic of them since and that was early Sept. There is a couple acres of red clover and an acre of ladino plus an acre of buck forage oats,wheat,winter pea, mix that is growing well but not being hit much. I wouldn't think it's from lack of food that there not around. On the other hand, I did see some trophy squirrels and chipmunks down there this evening.

Wondering where they went,
Strutter

[Big58cal]

When I received the news release from the KDFWR, I just about hit reply and asked that my comments be sent to Gasset, Day, Grimes, etc. I decided against that because it wouldn't have done any good.

I used to buy into the "KILL MORE DOES" philosophy of the KDFWR. Then, after not seeing any deer, tracks, crap, rubs, scrapes, etc., I decided that I would manage the property the way I saw fit. This year, I'm actually starting to see some deer again. The KDFWR can leave the county Zone 1 forever for all I care. I'm going to manage the deer the way I see fit, and I encourage others to do the same.

[DARKCLOUD]

I LIVE IN CASEY COUNTY,IN MY HUNTING AREAS IN THE LAST THREE YEARS
WE SEE FEWER DEER, WE SHOOT FEWER DEER,I LIVE IN A RURAL AREA AND
WE SEE FEWER DEER IN DAY TO DAY TRAVELS.
TRY EXPLAINING THE "WE HAVE TOO MANY DEER "THERY TO A 12 YEAR OLD
BOY WHO IN THE LAST 2YEARS HAS HUNTED 5 DAYS AND SEEN 2 DEER.
PERSONALLY I HAVE TAKEN A LOT OF DEER SO IF I DO NOT GET ONE,IT IS
NOT A BIG DEAL,HOWEVER I DO LIKE TO SEE THEM.

[broadside]

I think Boss Gobbler is right the majority of over population is in unhuntable ares such as subdivisions, golf courses, and the big thicket that surrounds Taylorsville Lake. I know that in my area, we don't have big woods. We only have small stands of woods. When you have 6 does on your 100 acres and you buy some extra tags and shoot all of them. You probablly won't see any deer the next year.As far as the farmers complaining about deer, All they have to do is open their gate to some youth hunters or other hunters. If they have livestock bowhunters would be more than happy to help them out.

CHEVY'S, PIONEER RADIOS, AND STREN FISHIN LINE

[polcat]

i used to spend alot of time in westren ky trying to find a place to hunt,being a poor man i have no money for a lease so i would go door knocking and 99% of the time this would be the answer i would get..cant have nothing for the deer, they tear my tobacco beds apart, distroy my beans ,cant raise a garden, tear my fence down,but i dont allow no hunting..i would would think the man for his time and be on my way to the next farm to hear the same thing...i finally gave up and guit going...just stay home and hunt fewer deer...

The more i learn about deer hunting...The less i seem to know

[kyarcher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kyarcher</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kyhuntsman</i>
<br />kyarcher, Do you have cameras up taking pictures at all hours? Matt
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes I have two deercams and three trail monitors going 24/7.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I'm on them now! Went this morning and as soon as I got there it started pouring the rain. Decided just to set at the cabin and watch a field of soybeans. Stayed till 10:30 and never saw a deer. Checked out the deercams and trail monitors. Monitors had no hits but one of the cams had ONE hit. Wow... Ky F&W I'm impressed.

[oldtimer]

The problem is really one of attitude. Once a game and fish department caves into the idea that the deer must be managed for social reasons and not totally for the benefit of the animals and the hunters, you are on the road to disaster, as a deer hunter. For the past many years we have all heard the term "social carrying capacity of the land" etc. When you hear this a red flag ought to go up. Who determines what the carrying capacity of the land will be? Once you make the decesion to manage according to what the desires of the non hunting public and the insurance companies and others are, then the declines begins. We all see the same thing happening, fewer deer, harder to find good bucks and less real hunting enjoyment. The only time you will see any change in the situation is if and when revenues drop but I guess they could always add a another new season, there are always more and more illegal immagrants coming in and they could use the hunting license as an official ID.
The attitude now is that the deer and the hunter come way down the ladder to the other agendas. I agree that the micro management would be great but it would mean too way many deer so we can't do that. Naw, just kill em all and sort it out later we will still have plenty of turkeys.

[Boss Gobbler]

Those oldtimers know whats going on dont they, politics thats all it is. I can remember a time when F&W was about bettering the hunting oppertunity. They use to cater to the hunters instead of bitching residence in areas where they dont allow hunting in the first place. Why mess up a hole county because one golf course has way to many deer.[:(!]

[Marvin Campbell]

Also with the decline of the number of deer sighting, I have noticed that there are fewer deer hunters!

[GSP]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Kentucky Afield News
From KY Dept. of Fish and Wildlife Resources fw.ky.gov
October 24, 2003

At the onset of the deer archery season in early September, Forest
Systems Coordinator Jonathan Day, of the Kentucky Department of Fish and
Wildlife Resources (KDFWR), expected the statewide herd size to be in excess
of 800,000 animals.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Kentucky Afield,
Fall Edition 2003
Approximately 250,000 turkeys and 600,000 deer live in the state...
Tom Bennett, Commissioner<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[Xtreme]

Those that are watching food plots for the last month to date will be disapointed as acorns are plentiful in most areas. Deer will not venture out much when mast crops are abundant.

Now, having said that.....this is not the first year we have ever had a lot of acorns. Given my choice I prefer acorns. I always had a lot of luck in good mast crop years. This year has not been good[xx(] a lot of acorns and little sign/sightings.

I think they have the numbers BACKWARDS....250,000 deer and 600,000 turkeys.

Just got my Ky. Afield mag and it seems that 81% of all deer hunters are happy. The other 19% must reside here[?][:0]

I'll be interested to know if the dept. gives serious consideration to the bowhunter logs that were sent out.

The "good ole days" were about three to four years ago. Us "oldtimers" know when we had it bad and when we had it good. Now, it's in the middle.

[Larry Carter]

Darkcloud, I have in laws in Casey County. Might be a good example of difficulty in managing a deer herd. You see few deer, brother in laws farm has so many he can't raise a garden, trees and shrubs all ate in the yard.Pretty common to see six or ten in the open even in gun season. Guess he should have not cut the timber.[B)]
Micro management might be ideal but terribly expensive. Hunted in a few states/provinces with those "East side of Road 19a is open for deer from 13 November through 15 November. West side of 19a is open from 10 November though 1 December except on odd numbered Saturdays".
Several of you guys probably have some of those license guides from other states that look/feel like a young phone directory.[:(]

[DARKCLOUD]

MR. CARTER i may be new to the forum but i am not new to hunting.
in the room i am sitting there is 17 bucks i nave taken in 25 years of hunting on 2 family farms,3 friends farms.
i based my opinion on the deer i used to see,farming and hunting these
places as compared to what i have seen last 3 years.
i understand it is very difficult to micro manage the deer population
but i think between poaching and liberal seasons the herd in the areas i
hunt have declined too much.
IF TAKEN BY YOUTH HUNTERS OR BOWHUNTERS THAT WOULD BE GREAT!!!!
however i think the majority are taken by adult gun hunting

[keith meador]

every year we experience the vanishing deer phenomenon. we dont have acorns, but we do have alphalfa and winter wheat. the deer always seem to vanish when the acorns fall, and the corn turns brown. after the corn gets picked, and the acorns go away, we start seeing the deer again. we bought into the killing of does, and have only harvested one buck in the last 5 years. our biggest problem is the surrounding hunters will not let the bucks walk. we used to see 40+ does and a few bucks in the early season, then the deer vanished only to return around gun season. we have seen more bucks than does this year, and have not seen the numbers, but 17 bucks in one outing is very good. these are not large deer, but with the numbers surely some will make it to maturity, and maybe some from last year have made it, although we havent seen any big deer yet, we are confident we will during the next few weeks.

we were told by a kdfw biologist to take 12 deer a year for five years. antlerless naturally. for the most part we have. we no longer see the numbers, 40+, but we do see as many as 25. i hunt on 168 acres, with only about 60 acres of woods. for me it has paid off, but we used a little common sense and did not continue shooting does when the surrounding properties did. i dont know how it will all pan out, but so far, it has produced more antlered deer sightings. time will tell, but for now i am pleased.

i do think we were spoiled a few years ago by the numbers. it looks impressive when you can see the numbers, but we did have too many deer.

the estimates by kdfw i think are based on surface area of the entire state, and when the number shows up that the only want 4 deer per 100 acres, that number includes developed areas. there may be a higher density of deer in the rural areas. i do know in downtown frankfort there is a huge population of deer. they are thriving. in the future they will need to be dealt with.

life is like a dogsled team, if your not the lead dog, the view never changes.........

[Multidigits]

Take a look at the latest Ky. Afield magazine. It gives some counties and their numbers. Not all Zone 1's and Zone 2's are created equally.

[Highbow]

Some real bragging going on in this new issue, you got to think someone is all wrong at the estimates.

[joekat46]

If anyone wants to see what it is like to live in a Zone 1 subdivision e-mail me direct and I'll forward a picture I took today out the back patio door. address - joekat@vci.net

At some point some neighbor will inform me that they have "named" these two in the picture. When the 8th of November comes it will be a real war among the deer lovers and deer haters.

[BSK]

What I wouldn't give for "Zone 1" regulations in TN. That would make managing the local herd so much easier.

An average of 4 deer per 100 acres sounds just right. That is a density of 25 deer per square mile. We were trying to hold our deer herd at 15 per square mile ( 2 1/3 deer per 100 acres), but without more liberal doe harvests, it became impossible to acheive. Now we're up around 30 per square mile, and we can't seem to shoot enough does.

I hate to say it, but if you can't successfully see and harvest deer from a 25/sq. mile herd, you need to take up another sport.

[Multidigits]

That's the problem. Get Gassett or Day to send you a copy of the Ky. Afield magazine. Very few counties were up to the 25 deer per sq. mile goal. Most were way under, and they only listed the "best chances". There were a few, abit very few, that were over the goal. But plenty under, and under by a bunch. Then those are averages, there's parts of those counties that don't have any or not enough to count. Sad, but true.

[Buckbriar]

I've said it before (and usually take some flack) but I'll say it again - wildlife management has a lot of politics involved in it, just like any govt. beaurocracy. I think a lot of the KDFW folks in the trenches but do not totally trust the powers that be. My bet is that there are things going on concerning the way our herd is managed that would make the average deer hunter furious.

After all is said and done concerning year to year sightings, tracks, deer going nocturnal, etc. - watch for the deer kill county to county and state wide over the next couple of years. I hope I'm wrong but I guess we'll see a large drop in kill which will show there has been too liberal a doe limit for too long. Some folks will be happy but not deer hunters.

[BSK]

<b>That's the problem. Get Gassett or Day to send you a copy of the Ky. Afield magazine. Very few counties were up to the 25 deer per sq. mile goal.</b>

multidigits,

I put very little to no faith in deer population models. It is physically impossible to accurately model a deer herd. And the larger the area you are trying to model, the worse the error rate gets. With a small enclosed herd living in homogenous habitat, you could get fairly close. But when you're talking about vast areas, ranging across very different habitat types, it just won't work.

Then there is the "spatial" problems with deer population models. Deer do not "spread out" evenly across the landscape. In any area, there will be pockets of high deer density directly adjacent to pockets of very low to almost no deer. We see this time and again while censusing deer herds. Even the "herd dynamics" (sex ratio, and age structure) can vary dramatically across very, very short geographic distances. One property can have great dynamics directly adjacent to a property with poor dynamics.

My personal property and "research area" is 1 mile north-south by 3/4 of a mile east-west. I have documented 4 to 5 fold differences in herd dynamics from the northern half to the southern half, and these differences remained consistant for several months. What I'm trying to say is, even if the population density numbers are accurate for an entire county, there will be vast differences from one property to the next within that county. What "management practices" are needed on one property may be very different than what would be appropriate on the next property.

I give the KDFW guys and gals a lot of credit. I wish we had such open-minded biologists in our state's wildlife agency. Heck, I would love to swap agencies. You can have the diehard traditional managers from our state if I can have your more liberal-minded state wildlife personnel. My greatest wish it to get someone like John running our agency.

[oldforestor]

...or what you may see is the same counties as always harvesting 50+% bucks. I dont care if it's based on myth, or just antler lust, there are people in kentucky that wouldnt kill does if they had 10 million. as zone 1 hunters, we've killed more than 20 does and 3 bucks per year on 600 acres over the last 7 years. there are more deer than ever and the road kill continues to increase as does the population. the anti antlerless harvest group seems to outnumber the people we talk to that agree that when the population is 70% female and 2 out of three does you see have 2 fawns, things are getting out of hand.

They are where you find 'em

[aceoky]

IMHO Here is where we(hunters) are "screwed". KYDFWR sets the limits as to what THEY want...if they want fewer deer they can't mandate that we(again hunters) kill them, but if we don't make an effort that they appreciate, what's going to stop them from having "cull hunts?" I agree that there is much too much politics involved which we could do without, but we live in the "real world" and that's how it's always been....perhaps it CAN be changed until then?????????

The thing is: just because you CAN kill as many doe as you'd like doesn't mean you should or have to or need to want to do it!!! IF the area YOU hunt is overun with doe, by all means thin some out; you'll be doing a great thing....on the other hand....(you have different fingers [:D]).....if you aren't seeing many deer at all let 'em walk.....then if they have the "cull hunts" you still did the right thing for the deer; the best you could do!

That being said, I DO think we have enough numbers to make changes IF enough of us agree on what/how to change it; that's another thread of itself.[:D]
I don't think that our way of life in KY is over and for that I'm grateful; some states are making it almost impossible to hunt no matter what the population of the choice of game; I think they would require you to hunt with a club if they could get away with it(thus making most not want to even hunt at all...)

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I'd rather be lucky than good any day!!

Reloaders Haul Brass!

[BSK]

<b>I've said it before (and usually take some flack) but I'll say it again - wildlife management has a lot of politics involved in it, just like any govt. beaurocracy.</b>

buckbriar,

That is absolutely true, and there is no way around it. State jobs require politics be involved. I know, I used to work for a federal agency, and sometimes (actually many times) politics were involved in the decision-making process. However, I don't think "politcs" is the reason for "Zone 1" type harvests regulations. Those regulations are just sound biology for certain areas.


<b>After all is said and done concerning year to year sightings, tracks, deer going nocturnal, etc... I hope I'm wrong but I guess we'll see a large drop in kill which will show there has been too liberal a doe limit for too long. Some folks will be happy but not deer hunters.</b>

That depends on <i>which</i> deer hunters you're talking about. Increased antlerless harvests <b>will</b> decrease daylight antlerless sightings for many deer hunters. That is just a fact of life. However, sometimes those higher harvests are biologically necessary.

That said, your comment, "<b>Some folks will be happy but not deer hunters.</b>" requires refining as to which deer hunters won't be happy. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or bash anybody, but I do have the opportunity to work with deer hunters and deer clubs all over the country. And one aspect of "hunter satisfaction" that never ceases to amaze me is the "average" hunter's inability to see/harvest deer even in high-density deer herds. I have worked with clubs where the deer density is a documented (through photo censusing) 60-80 deer per square mile, yet many of the hunters in the club will swear on a stack of Bibles that there isn't a deer alive on the property. And their deer sighting rates (deer observed per hunting hour) bear out this impression. They simply aren't seeing any deer. Why? Usually they are hunting the wrong places or overhunting their "favorite" spots. Honestly, sometimes I just can't figure out why they aren't seeing deer, but they certainly are not. Perhaps it is as little as "attention to detail". I don't know.

[aceoky]

<b>And one aspect of "hunter satisfaction" that never ceases to amaze me is the "average" hunter's inability to see/harvest deer even in high-density deer herds. I have worked with clubs where the deer density is a documented (through photo censusing) 60-80 deer per square mile, yet many of the hunters in the club will swear on a stack of Bibles that there isn't a deer alive on the property. And their deer sighting rates (deer observed per hunting hour) bear out this impression. They simply aren't seeing any deer. Why? Usually they are hunting the wrong places or overhunting their "favorite" spots. </b>

That's a great point! And so true!!! I think this in in part caused by our society's "instant gratification" complex: most of us are used to paying for something and getting an immediate reward.....SO they put down their money, and expect within ten minutes for a B&C buck to appear! When not only does that NOT happen and they see 0 deer(keep in mind it can't be THEIR fault..they payed good money in tags fees etc.) I don't think they ever stop to think about what THEY could have done better(scouting, homework etc.) "There are NO deer here" is the simple answer, thus placing the blame anywhere but on themselves..[:)] I AM hoping this is NOT the future of hunting paying for a penned animal to come into range, but it well could be, that's why I often post about getting young people(and women) into the sport....teaching them the correct way of doing things ...but I'm very much afraid the "spoiled people" who can afford it, are NOT willing to work for a good deer if they can have it an easier way.......

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I'd rather be lucky than good any day!!

Reloaders Haul Brass!

[BSK]

Multidigits,

Oh yes, "micro-management" is the only way to maximize the potential of a local deer population. I'll be the first to tell you that. But micro-management at the state level is impossible.

The KDFW are taking just the opposite approach as the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency (TWRA). The KDFW is managing for the highest common denominator, in that they are providing the tools necessary to micro-manage deer herds. This requires very liberal antlerless harvests for those who need/want to practice this form of management. On the other hand, the TWRA is managing for the lowest common denominator -- those who aren't happy unless they see 40 deer in a field at a time. They refuse to let hunters micro-manage their deer herds by making it very difficult to harvest antlerless deer.

I don't know what the best answer is. Perhaps both states need a better form of DMAP-type management, where those that want to can get nearly unlimited antlerless permits, while the general bag limit is less liberal. State-wide management is very, very difficult. I'm glad it's not my job.

Without question I'm beginning to reassess state-wide "QDM-like" bag limits. In most states that are using these type of regulations (more liberal antlerless harvests, and in some states, buck antler restrictions), many hunters are complaining about seeing less deer. That <b>will</b> happen under those regulations -- guaranteed. Again, perhaps the answer is to let those who want this form of management to practice it, but have less liberal state-wide bag limits. Tough call, and I don't know the answer.

[Shelbyhunter]

Yall should have attended the QDMA meeting in Frankfort last night and aired your frustrations.

[Valley Station]

BSK ,
"Increased anterless harvest will decrease daytime <b>and night time</b> antlerless sightings...." <b>That</b>, is just a fact of life.[:)]
<u>In this state</u>,<u> "Zone 1" regulations is very often, totally political.</u>
In my home county, Jefferson county (Louisvile metro) our high density deer herd "pockets" are due to NO Hunting. We have large tracts of goverment owned or municipallity "mismanaged" property that is never hunted due to "anti-hunting" sentiment within metro goverment.[}:)] Not even archery only hunts.[:(!]
Deer mortality in these areas is strictly from "auto collisions" and illegal methods.What a waste![:(!][V]
You could make it antlerless only, year round , Zone 0 regulation, if access not opened to hunting , don't mean didly squat.

[Shelbyhunter]

Most of you all have been hunting longer than I have, but we equally share a common concern for the quality of our deer herd. The KDFWR does tons of research to decide which county is Z1, Z2,Z3, or Z4. Depending on what types of forage and habitat you have on your property, the #'s of deer will correlate with the best food source. On top of that, deer will move from place to place according to what they need, i.e protien, fat, carbs, minerals, etc. You know, I'm lucky to be able to hunt in an area where there are plenty of deer and nice bucks. Some of you are not that lucky. So, with that said, you all want to get to the point where Shelby Co. is. The key is to manage your habitat as well as your deer herd. Just because you may be in a zone 1 county doesn't mean you have to manage it that way. But remember, if we let the deer poopulation out of whack, we will no longer be Kentucky, we will be Tennessee. I'd rather be a Wildcat than listen to Good ole Rocky top any day!

[Multidigits]

"The KDFWR does tons of research to decide which county is Z1, Z2,Z3, or Z4. Depending on what types of forage and habitat you have on your property, the #'s of deer will correlate with the best food source."

Nope, not true. They never see even a portion of the property in a Zone. There are several factors that are considered, but food sources or lack of them is not a factor. Indivdual properties are not considered either.

"The key is to manage your habitat as well as your deer herd. Just because you may be in a zone 1 county doesn't mean you have to manage it that way."

Not what I believe a majority of hunters want, in my opinion. For example if you have 100-150 acres, and manage the hell out of it, you still won't be successful if your neighbors are shooting every deer in sight. Zone limits have to set the tone and offer guidance to what the hunters can take.

Guess what else wasn't a factor in the Zoning, because they were already set before the severity was known--the blue tongue outbreak. I've heard the numbers in some counties and you would think that some re-zoning would be the norm. Yet we see an article in the major newspaper calling for us to kill more does. On top of that, the ppulation is quoted as 200,000 deer more than it was at the end of the birthing season. Strange?

[BSK]

<b>Question for you: Why can't you practice QDM if you have 40 per square mile and also practice QDM if you have 15 deer per square mile???? Far as I'm concerned, it's a matter of what the habitat will support. Goals are great. Let's hit them before killing everything in sight.</b>

multidigits, you're absolutely correct. It all depends on what the habitat will support. 15 deer/square mile in a habitat that will support 20 deer/square mile should display nearly equal health to a 40 deer/square mile herd in habitat that will support 50-55 deer/square mile.

But like others have pointed out, you don't <i>have to</i> shoot every doe you see if your deer sightings are unacceptably low (considering habitat quality, i.e. your habitat may simply not support any more deer).

Will a neighbor's harvest strategy effect your efforts? Absolutely. Welcome to the world of we QDMers who have had to live with our neighbors blasting every deer with visible antlers and not shooting does. But again, I at least give the KDFW credit for giving hunters/managers the freedom to manage their herds for whatever result they want, better herd health and dynamics (sex ratio) or more deer. If you want more deer, don't shoot any. Both "more deer" proponents and QDMers have to learn to live and hunt side by side. Each takes something away from the other, as well as benefits the other.

[Buckbriar]

BSK,
From the, admitedly, small amount of wildlife biology knowledge I have and fairly large amount of hunting experience, I see the KDFW managing a "Boogey Man" situation that doesn't exist. That tells me pressure is being exerted on the KDFW from somewhere to drastically thin the herd not for good science reasons but economic reasons important to special interest groups (maybe farmers, insurance companies, etc.). In my opinion, we're being told we have a near overpopulation crisis on our hands to justify the herd reduction. Farming and others, of course, have a just reason for the KDFW to hear their complaints but also remember hunters are paying the wildlife programs bills. I've hunted deer from Alabama, Kentucky, Ohio, PA, WV to Michigan and IMHO we DO NOT have or are on the verge of an overpopulation crisis. I've never seen browse lines anywhere in Kentucky - only Michigan.
While I'm ranting, I'm afraid the current management style is going to result in a lot of hunters starting to shoot small bucks as the doe population goes down - a lot of hunters want to kill something after putting forth the time and money. If there are a few doe days, or sane antlerless limit, set aside during the gun season (when and where really needed), many folks can harvest a deer and have some good eating and fond memories to tide them over to next season while letting the small bucks walk.

[BSK]

Buckbriar,

You've hunted PA and AL and haven't seen browse lines? I find that hard to believe. Both of those states have some of the most overpopulated deer herds in the nation.

Is KY facing imminent over-population? I doubt it, primarily because of the liberal doe bag limits. Other than KY and possibly Virginia, there isn't a Southeast state that can <i>legitimately</i> claim hunter harvest is controlling deer densities. It is a combination of food limitations and hunter harvest that is controlling the Southeast deer herds. KY was the only state to jump on herd control well before it became a problem.

Secondly, and I hate to say this because it will piss a lot of hunters off, but I seriously question whether the average hunter has the ability to distinguish deer over-population or a deer herd approaching capacity. Time and again when working with hunters, I see them fail to recognize overpopulated herds or habitat damaged by overbrowsing. Time and again they will say, "but our deer are just fine" when overpopulation is causing serious declines in herd health.

When is "enough deer" enough? From my experiences, hunters will complain there aren't enough deer even when deer densities exceed 80 deer per square mile and the habitat is severely over-browsed. I guess the big question is, what should be managed for? A herd in balance with its habitat, and is not harming that habitat for other species, or hunter desires for seeing more deer? Obviously, it must be a balancing act between the two.

Again, I'm glad I'm not working for the state. That is a no-win job. Hunters will never be happy with the deer density, and really aren't concerned with the effects of high deer densities on the habitat. And remember, in some habitat, 15 deer per square mile is too many deer, and <i>will</i> cause habitat degradation. Hunting that type of herd is very, very difficult, and won't make most hunters happy.

[Buckbriar]

<i><b>BSK - Secondly, and I hate to say this because it will piss a lot of hunters off, but I seriously question whether the average hunter has the ability to distinguish deer over-population or a deer herd approaching capacity. Time and again when working with hunters, I see them fail to recognize overpopulated herds or habitat damaged by overbrowsing. Time and again they will say, "but our deer are just fine" when overpopulation is causing serious declines in herd health</b></i>
You're right, most hunters (including myself) are not experts at estimating deer population, but, I live on my farm and know it intimately. I have several clover/alfalfa food plots that I rarely see deer in the past couple of years plus have to bushhog them often because the deer are not even beginning to graze them down like they used to. I see fewer tracks along trails, creek banks etc. Bottom line is there are way fewer deer. Like I said before, I believe, the KDFW are managing a "BOOGEY MAN" problem in most areas of the state. I understand we need biologist and professional wildlife managers, but, the problem with having experts involved with anything is that they can't keep their hands off things - if there is not a problem to fix they are inclined to invent a problem to fix. Just one man's opinion.

[kyarcher]

[quote]<i>Originally posted by BSK</i>
<br />

I wish we had such open-minded biologists in our state's wildlife agency. /quote]

How can you call them open-minded when they won't listen to the ones that are actually in the woods seeing nothing. I've hunted for 24 years and I know what deer sign (or the lack of)means. Since Oct 3rd I still have not seen a deer from a stand. I did see 3 does last night about dark and they were the first I've seen since the 16th of last week.

[BSK]

kyarcher and buckbrier,

I'm not got to sit here in TN and say you don't know what is going on with your property. I haven't seen it, don't know where it is, and haven't walked it. There certainly may be less deer on your hunting areas than there used to be. I don't know, because I haven't been there.

But there can be many things that alter deer densities, and some of these factors can happen fairly quickly. Secondly, what has the doe harvest from the area actually been? Have they been that severe? What kind of habitat are your lands, and have there been any changes on that property or any nearby properties? Lots of things can effect deer populations.

I can just say, I would love to see TN take the same approach as KY. I publicly brow-beat my state's agency on a daily basis to join the modern world of deer management. And I won't quit until they do liberalize doe harvests.

Good deer management is certainly location specific, and <b>great</b> deer management is <b>always</b> site specific. What works for one property may not be right for your property. It depends on the site specific conditions. Unfortunately, state agencies can't delve into site specific management. They don't have that kind of manpower. All they can do is give you the tools required for site specific management, which the KDFW is doing.

[Highbow]

BSK,I would suggest a couple of things happen in Tenn if you want more deer harvested. #1 Put the Tele-check system into operation-that will reduce your herd by 50% within two years of useage, hire Tom Bennett to run your F&W dept. that will finish off the rest of the small game and you will have the greatest hunting in all of the US.

[Shelbyhunter]

hb, are you being facicious?

[kyarcher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BSK</i>
<br />kyarcher and buckbrier,


But there can be many things that alter deer densities,

Yes and harvesting too many does is one thing that will alter deer densities

What kind of habitat are your lands,

158 acres with about 10 acres cleared and 5 of those in food plots.

I can just say, I would love to see TN take the same approach as KY.

BSK, you agree that 4 deer per 100 acres is good? That would mean that my farm would only have 6 deer if KYFW had their way. I spend between $500-$1000 a year on fertizler and seed for food plots and 6 deer would certainly not justify my cost and labor.

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[kyarcher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Highbow</i>
<br />BSK,I would suggest a couple of things happen in Tenn if you want more deer harvested. #1 Put the Tele-check system into operation-that will reduce your herd by 50% within two years of useage, hire Tom Bennett to run your F&W dept. that will finish off the rest of the small game and you will have the greatest hunting in all of the US.
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I'll second that.

[BSK]

Kyarcher,

Yes, 25 deer per square mile would be a good overall density for many parts of KY. But you misunderstand how deer densities work. The are an average. Or a better way to put it is they are a "snap-shot" picture of deer density (where they are at any given minute). But deer can have large and overlapping ranges. If you have 100 acres, you don't just have 4 deer on the property (at 25/square mile). In fact, you have no deer that live totally on the property. But at any given moment, on average, there would be 4 deer per 100 acre parcel. However, on any given 100 acre parcel, many more deer than 4 would cross/use the property. I am still trying to determine (through spacial analyses) exactly how many, but I'm sure it is 3 to 4 times that number. And depending upon shifts in season ranges, some times during the year you may have no deer using the property. At other times of the year, there could be 25 deer using the property. Deer are not static. They move around and have varying seasonal and annual ranges.

[Feedman]

HB. You hit the nail on the head. When was Telecheck started??? In reading these posts, Reduced deer sightings and Telecheck starting seem to happen about the same time. There is a lot of people out there who do not check deer. I hunt in Oldham Co. on a 550 acre farm. We have seen a lot less deer the last 2 years??

Take a breath, Let it half out, slowly squeeze the trigger. Oh!! what a feeling!!!!!!!!!

[BSK]

Highbow,

I agree. The telecheck system is a poor system. At least that is one thing the TN guys do right. They require every deer to be taken to a check station, and they collect some truly valuable harvest data at those check stations.

[BSK]

<b>Yes and harvesting too many does is one thing that will alter deer densities</b>

Kyarcher,

We have conducted several long-term experiments in high doe harvests. In forested habitat, we found it virtually impossible to overshoot a doe population. And that was using professional USDA deer eradication snipers, hunting 5 months of the year, with no bag limits and in an enclosed area (so deer couldn't move in to take the removed deers' place). We continued these unlimited doe harvest for 10 years, and we made little dent in the over-all deer herd.

[BSK]

Feedman,

Your post brings up an interesting question. For how long have hunters been noticing a decline in deer sightings? Just this year? This year and last year? How long?

[jcuts]

For me it boils down to this - last year I hunted 26 times and I saw deer 1 time from the stand (2 does). In previous years I would average seeing deer 90% of the time on the same property from the same stands. I know deer movements change and I am not the best deer hunter in the world, but there simply aren't as many deer as there used to be in the area I hunt.

For me, I would rather see deer 9 out of 10 trips than see only a trophy 1 out of 10.

I believe the anterless harvest has gone to far in many areas of the state. I hope the hunters can get the program back on the right track.

[GSP]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Your post brings up an interesting question. For how long have hunters been noticing a decline in deer sightings? Just this year? This year and last year? How long?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
My farm is in Morgan County. My dad lives there and "knows" every deer on a 400 acre tract of land. He watches them daily and notes everyone by color, size, etc. He notes the number of tracks in the snow, amount of usage arond water, amount of usage in food areas. He knows there are a total of 5 does. 5 years ago there were in the neighborhood of 20. This area is approx 1/3 hardwoods, 5 acres corn, 5 acres NWSG, 40 acres hay, rest pasture and grown up fields.Back when we had 20 plus deer on this area, I took a local kid and he shot a doe that field dressed 165,my daughter shot a doe that dressed 135, so these deer are not going hungry. Also this farm(s) is within 3 miles of deer found dead with EHD. I asked earlier how this was going to factor into the numbers. For a fact, no one knows how many deer died with EHD!
The problem I have is the MARKETING of our deer herd. All I have heard for the last 3-4 years is KILL every doe you see!!!! Guess where we hear that????????????? Deer have been de-valued so bad that the general opinion is "they want them killed, so kill them"!!! I know as well as anyone that this is NOT proper and is not the intent. BUT, with that said, every meeting I have attended in the past 3 years starts out with, "SHOOT MORE DOES"! I dare anyone the argue that statement!
Think of this, if every month, the Govenor was quoted, saying, "Y'all drive as fast as you want", (even though there were only 30 roads in the state you could drive as fast as you wanted too without breaking the law, but that was never mentioned),how do you think the roads would be. Reckless? Out of control? You think there would be an outcry from other drivers?

[Highbow]

Good points GSP and KYArcher, I have two farms that I hunt with two other hunters 90% of the time, one 580+ acres-prime clover ,vetch and timber reclaimed strip mines, the other is 450 acres of prime mid growth timber and food plots. Both farms have excellent ponds all about and in years past , fours ago, you could see 10 deer a day. KDFWL biologist have performed planting and seeding on the largest farm but have no answer for why the herd is still going down. We have not harvested our limit on this land any of the last four years and it is closed to other hunters. You would look at this place and think what a deer kingdom but that isn't the case. All properties around these farms are hunted heavy and lots of poaching goes on there, NO ONE in that area is going to worry about checking their deer in and many just hang in the barn for a day or two and then get put in the creek. You can ask any of the hunters out there if they will check in a doe and they laugh, Why F&W doesn't care how many you kill. TOO MUCH is TOO MUCH and just look how fast they have back down the zone numbers on some of these counties. I'm in east KY and it will take a lot to build our numbers back to a good hunting level because once you let things get out of control you can never get a handle on bringing it back.

[Wildcat]

I just got back from 3 days of hunting and camping at LBL and the only deer I saw the whole time was in my headlights going to my stand. I also didn't find one fresh rub anywhere. There were 8 other hunters at the campground and only one of them found one fresh rub. Another one saw 2 does while on stand and that's all the deer we all saw while I was there. KDFWR does NOT run LBL, USDA owns and runs LBL and they make their own seasons and limits. They have nothing to do with the Zone System and have low limits. So far at the check stations at LBL the numbers checked out are half what they were at this time last year. Now you all tell me who to blame for this, please???


I don't know where you all live or what your hunting grounds are like but here in Livingston Co where the farms I manage are we've got more deer than we know what to do with. Simce KDFWR put Livingston Co in a Zone One we've been wacking the does big time but our camera census we do every July shows more deer than last year. This year for the first time we're bringing some friends to help out. After getting home from LBL I drove the 12 miles to the farms and counted 6 road kills, that's not many for this time of the year.

The Tel-Check is to blame??? I do not like it and hope they go back to checking at checking stations. But I call a spade a spade, the laws and regulations on deer hunting in Ky says to tel-check EVERY deer taken if people are not doing that then they are poachers. Call them for what they really are, poachers. They are knowingly breaking the law. If you know of people that are doing that but are not truning them in then you are as much part of the problem as they are. Some of them say that KDFWR doesn't care how many does are killed so why should they check them in. That's an excuse and a very bad one at that. It's like saying dope for kids is OK since everyone is doing it. When we started managing our herd 6 years ago we had poachers all the time, we started patrolling the farms, truning everyone we caught and pressing for the full charge in court we have not seen one poacher in the past 3 years. I know that in some parts of the state poaching is a way of life but that's our own fault, we let them get away with it way too long.

[GSP]

Wildcat, I have heard from a very reliable source that you are an very good deer hunter. So what do you think the drop in numbers is to blame?


As for the area I speak of, it is 300 miles east of LBL. I agree, poachers are poachers, but we don't need hearing, "shoot more does" as the opening lines of every topic!

[Shelbyhunter]

You guys, there is no drop of numbers. The deer just move from place to place, according to what is on the menu that day. I do sympathize with some of you though. everyone likes to see deer when they go hunting but just because you don't see deer for a few days or weeks at a time does not mean the deer have deserted your area. I for one love telecheck. it is easy to do and I don't have to go to an extra stop before I take it too the processor or Tax.

[Wildcat]

gsp,
I have no idea. I said on an earlier post that on other forums hunters in Ky, Tn, Ark, Miss, Al and Ga are repoting the same thing, low sightings and low kill numbers so far this year. That's why I want to wait until the final totals come out at the end of the season. The only reason I brought up LBL was to show it's happing there too and they are not under the Zone System. I keep a hunters log and according to it the last time I had this much bad luck at LBL was in 1991. But the thing is I do know they are there, I saw several good bucks while scouting in early Sept and had people with me when we spoted them.

[joekat46]

Just to throw a little more gas on the fire, I live across from LBL and get over there about three days a week on the average. Since they have almost totally stopped harvesting trees the prime second growth deer habitat is disappearing and there will never be a deer herd like the "good old days". When you start hearing words like "old growth" and "biosphere" know the deer herd is going to head down. This season the acorns are so thick the deer have scattered (just my opinion). I plan on bowhunting LBL tomorrow and at least 4 days next week. I will be over there for sure on November 8th and 9th so as to avoid the gun opener on my side of the lake.

Almost forgot to add - on just about any morning bow hunt in LBL I'll hear at least some gun shots. At this time there should be no gun hunting in LBL for anything. I usually think, squirrel hunters, but who knows. The removal of the entrance gates wasn't a plus. Neither was the no check in for the gun hunts.

[Wildcat]

Joe,
You and I must be in different Area in LBL. Last year I couldn't step out of my truck without stepping on an acorn but this year I've yet to find a good oak tree putting out a good number of acorns. I'm limiting my self to the Area I got for the gun hunt.

From my front door the the North Welcome Station is just a 15 minute drive so I've hunt there several dozen times a year.

I've got some good news for you. I went to a couple of the public meetings of LBL and they are going to be going some cutting to thin out the "old growth trees".

Your right about those gun shots but squirrel season is still open at LBL still it could be poachers shooting deer.

[BSK]

I asked "how long" because of environmental conditions. Large acorn crops over the last three years across the Southeast have definitely affected deer observation and harvest rates. It is a well documented fact that good acorn crops reduce deer activity, deer sightings, and deer harvests. Even though TN has a large and growing deer herd, deer sightings have been down in TN, yet photo censuses across the state have shown an increasing deer density.

What I'm getting at is there are many, many factors that effect daylight deer observation rates, and that observation rates are <b>not</b> a good indicator of deer density. If all environmental and herd dynamics numbers are equal from year to year -- if everything stays the same except deer population -- then deer sightings would be good indicators of deer population. But rarely (if ever) do environmental conditions remain the same from year to year. Food sources change, habitat grows in and out of different stages very rapidly, crops are rotated, weather patterns are different from year to year, herd dynamics change rapidly, etc. All of these factors influence daylight deer movement.

Obviously, many hunters across KY are reporting very low deer sightings. But so are hunters in TN, GA, MS and AL. These states do not have declining deer populations. Across TN, even in very high-density herds (40+/square mile) hunters can't buy a deer sighting. Why? I have no idea, but I assume it is environmental, since this problem is being reported nearly everywhere. Deer sightings were also poor in 2001 and 2002 across the Southeast.

<i>Could</i> your deer populations be down? Absolutely, but I haven't seen anyone present good data as proof. Deer observations are not good data.

As for Hemorrhagic Disease (HD) outbreaks, they can have a significant impact, especially the farther north geographically they occur. In the Deep South, HD is endemic, and the deer are exposed to it every year. They have much more natural immunity to it, hence "die-offs" are minimal. In Northern KY and Southern IL, HD outbreaks can be devastating, with as much as 50% die-offs reported in the past.


Highbrow wrote:
<b>I'm in east KY and it will take a lot to build our numbers back to a good hunting level because once you let things get out of control you can never get a handle on bringing it back.</b>

Maybe, maybe not. Deer herds are much more robust than you would imagine. They very rapidly expand to fill their environment to the limiting factors. Poaching is certainly a limiting factor. From what I have seen, I believe poaching loss is severe in East KY and TN, much more severe than legal harvest.

[BSK]

Multidigits,

You are assuming deer will move the same distances and the same amount <i>at some time</i> during a 24 hour period. This is not correct. Once they have their winter coat, unusually warm weather will keep them from moving much at all. The hot weather is extremely stressful (imagine having to hike around in a down coat if the temps were in the 70s and 80s).

Deer will only move as far as necessary to meet all of their biological needs. If habitat is very diverse (lots of different habitat types packed into a small area) deer ranges will shrink dramatically. Deer only move as far as they have to. Having a small range is greatly to their benefit. It reduces their exposure to predators. It also allows them to know every inch of their home range better (notice anything out of place). In fact, when working with small properties (under 1,000 acres), habitat diversification is a primary tool we use to help the landowner have more harvest control of the deer using hisproperty. It shrinks the deers' home ranges, keeping more of their travels on the landowners property.

Acorns are usually widespread (during a good acorn year). Deer do not have to travel far to find them. Often acorns are present directly in their bedding areas, and they do not have to move to feed. Acorns are also very slow to digest. A deer is driven to get up and feed by enzymes produced by the stomach as it empties. As the stomach empties, these enzymes are produced which makes the deer "feel hungry". Deer must keep their stomachs full or the bacteria they use to digest food will die -- permanently -- which would result in the deer's death. Acorns digest very slowly, hence the deer is triggered to get up and feed much less frequently. In poor acorn years, deer rely on other food sources, especially browase and agricultural/food plot plants. Agricultural and food plot plants digest very rapidly, emptying the stomach rapidly, and causing the deer to get up to feed more often. Also, ag/food plot plants may be some distance from a bedding area, forcing the deer to travel farther and more often.

Herd dynamics are a major player in deer activity, especially around the rut. Good dynamics (balanced sex ratio and older buck age structure) greatly increase competition between bucks for breeding rights, and high competition forces bucks to travel during daylight chasing estrus does. In poor dynamics herds, a buck does not have to trail a doe during daylight to still have exclusive access to her. In good dynamics herds, the rut is shorter but much, much more intense, and more of that activity occurs during daylight.

Harvest pressure greatly affects daylight deer activity. Under heavy hunting pressure (interacting with a lot of human scent or actual encounters with humans) will drive deer nocturnal.

Changes in habitat, especially the sudden creation of good cover, will greatly reduce deer movement outside of the cover, both day and night. Deer will live their entire lives inside a clear-cut, if water is available. Increases in cover habitat can have astounding affects on observable deer activity. On myown property, we began a major habitat improvement project in 1999. One aspect of this project was to create small clear-cuts scattered across the property for both browse production and cover (the property had almost zero cover to begin with). Since 1999, our deer density -- even under extreme doe harvest pressure -- has more than doubled (from 15/sq. mile to 30+/sq. mile), yet deer sighting rates decline every year. As those little scattered clear-cuts grow into the "good cover" stage, the deer have learned to live in them. Last year, we had the highest deer density ever on the property, but all of the cover in combination with the good acorn crop produced the lowest deer sighting rates we have yet seen.

[joekat46]

Widcat - if you read the LBL rules the only way you can shoot a squirrel now in LBL is with a bow while deer hunting. Until December 1st or the quota deer hunts next month if you hear a gun shot it is illegal. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Area 5 has tons of acorns, area 10 also.

Let's change that from "Widcat" to "Wildcat". [:I]

[polcat]

ok..i can remember in the mid 70s that if you saw a deer track in southeast ky it was something to talk about..i can remeber when most of eastren ky was closed for deer hunting...i have hunted 6 times this year and have only seen 3 deer...i think alot of it has to do with the heat and pressure on the deer....december is the month if you want to see deer when the mast is gone and they are having to eat to stay warm , that is when i have alway ben able to see deer and in numbers in my area.....

The more i learn about deer hunting...The less i seem to know

[JForce]

Numbers, numbers, numbers. I think that's why they call it hunting. Maybe someone should come up with a website where you can order one up, right outside your back door!

[Remington]

Explain this number. Last year, Pulaski Co.(Zone 3) 488 bucks killed. Laurel Co.(Zone 4) 311 bucks killed.
Changes for 2003:
Pulaski changed to Zone 4.
Laurel changed to Zone 3.

I live on 130+ acre farm in Laurel County. I am on or in the woods and fields everyday. I am very lucky to find a deer track. Three years ago, I saw deer almost everyday. I have talked to all adjacent landowners, which consist of over 1000 acres and no one is seeing any deer. Also, the hunting pressure is minimum. Whats happened? Is this just my area, or is it the same around the state?

[4SeasonBowhunter]

Multidigits: Nice Post. Fact, there are less deer. Check the graphics on Multi's link/post. Fact, there are folks out there who here, "kill all the does" and they do it. There are even limits on racoons. Why? They are valued more than deer? I'm not shooting a doe on my farm, just won't do it, until I see MORE does. No one has yet to explain why the theory is to kill the does you get bigger bucks. That's a "half empty" view. One buck limit grows bigger bucks. Let's bring the buck to doe ratio to 1 to 1 by letting the little bucks walk instead of killing all the does. How about that? Nah, never happen. Well, you have the power to shoot em or not. Sightings of does on my farm are down so I'm not.

[INKYHUNTER]

I realize some area's have a poaching problem, but it sounds like something else is killing deer off in someplaces. Poaching and hunting out of season will keep a herd down as my farm suffered from that problem for years. However based on what some people are saying it sounds like blue tongue could be the problem. I know in So. Indiana it really knocked the deer pop. along with liberal doe limits. It took it several years to recover.

[Highbow]

Wildcat, I know what poaching is, I have repeated my attempts many times at getting these guys caught, forget it, we have no CO in our area 90% of the time and the rest of that he is coving another county for someone else or working buddy detail with another CO. WE hope to have possum cop home soon and maybe he will help out.

[Wildcat]

Highbow,
I wasn't picking on you but in general because I've heard from people and read on here several times of people knowing of poaching going on. Some people try to help catch them but too many others look the other way. I'm very luckly our County Co is a long time family friend and lives just down the road from me. I just wish more people would demand that the poachers were caught and had to pay higher fines.

[GSP]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I realize some area's have a poaching problem, but it sounds like something else is killing deer off in someplaces. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Thanks INKY! I have asked a question that I really doubt will ever be answered. "What affect did the EHD have on the deer hear"?
Also, what is the herd? 600,000 or 800,000, 2 of the top 3 folks say 600,000, number 4 man says 800,000. Being off 25% is a <b><font size="3">BUNCH</font id="size3"></b>of deer. Now throw in another unknown of the EHD kill off???????????? I think saying, <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">encouraging hunters to take as many antlerless deer as they legally can,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">is not a responsible quote to be making without backing up some data. Look at the data, we killed 100,000+ deer last year, but we dropped somewhere between 400,000-600,000, depending on which number gets thrown out.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Shelbyhunter Posted - 10/29/2003 : 10:21:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys, there is no drop of numbers. The deer just move from place to place, according to what is on the menu that day. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, If you're interested, I'll e-mail you my dad's name & number and let you tell him that. He has been a VERY good deer hunter since 1957. He has killed a deer almost every year he's hunted. Doing that in the late 50's-60's &70's was no small feat. He has lived on this farm since 1936. Not much goes on around him without him knowing. He KNOWS there are 5 does where there were 20+!
Also he keeps track of every deer killed on farms within a 5 sq mile area around us. So far, 1 youth button buck, 1 ML doe, 2 does bow, 1 doe bow, lost and found later decomposed.
I'm telling y'all this guy has only one thing to do in life and that is to watch wildlife. He not only knows the amount of deer (and turkeys) around him. He knows them by sight and has them patterned to the hilt!
Bottom line, there are a lot less deer than there were.

BTW, JFORCE! I started deer hunting when we had hopes of seeing a track. I don't take your comment lightly. I am a hunter, I hunt and I OBSERVE my surroundings. I take these things seriously!
I am not the biggest deer hunter on this site, but I DO KNOW a hell'uve lot of deer are gone!

[Shelbyhunter]

Jonathan Day of the KDFWR said the other night that 600,000 represents #'s AFTER the end of deer season last year and 800,000 represents population after the fawns dropped this past spring. THAT is why you have 2 different #'s.

[GSP]

For what it's worth, that is the first I've heard of this twist. Don't get me wrong, I believe what you say. Read the October edition of KY Afield, ther is 4 referances to the number 600,000, all are referances to CURRENT deer population.

[Shelbyhunter]

Well, who knows....just going by what the biologists say.

[Wildcat]

All magazines have a deadline and any article muct be at the publisher two or three months before issue date.

[BSK]

If you want to know how many deer there are in KY, just pull a number out of a hat. That is about how accurate computer population models are.

Hunters get way, way, WAY too hung up on "numbers". How many total, how many per square mile, etc. I realize that is just human nature (we always want to reduce things to understandable numbers -- it helps us visualize things), but deer management is rarely a numbers game.

The first thing every client wants to know after we've assessed their property is "how many deer do we have?" They are always shocked when we tell them we don't know and we don't care. The only thing that is important in a given area is how the current density (whatever it is) is related to the productivity of the habitat. That can be assessed by looking at the habitat as well as reviewing herd health parameters.

[BSK]

4SeasonBowhunter wrote:
<b>I'm not shooting a doe on my farm, just won't do it, until I see MORE does.</b>

Nothing wrong with that. If more deer is your goal, don't shoot any for a year or two. If there are not other limiting factors, you WILL have more deer. Deer populations rapdily expand to the limits of herd growth.


<b>No one has yet to explain why the theory is to kill the does you get bigger bucks.</b>

I've done that several times on this site. I guess you didn't read those posts. I would post it again, but that is a vastly complex subject. We're just finishing up a book on herd dynamics, and even in a basic framework it took 36,000 words to explain it.


<b>That's a "half empty" view. One buck limit grows bigger bucks.</b>

On that point, you're dead wrong. Even with a 1 buck limit, 50% of your antlered buck harvest is yearling bucks. Killing that many yearlings is NOT the way to grow big/old bucks.

[BSK]

Multidigits,

Simply because state agencies have to use "something" to go by. Most use computer population models. These models are great for predicting hunter harvest, but very poor at predicting population numbers.

We do all of our management work from herd health parameters and habitat browse pressure. However, we have the luxury of being site specific managers. The state does not. Again, I wouldn't want their jobs. Hunters are <b><i>never</i></b> happy with state management.

[rlb165]

BSK wrote:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>If more deer is your goal, don't shoot any for a year or two. If there are not other limiting factors, you WILL have more deer. Deer populations rapdily expand to the limits of herd growth.
</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That would work except that the majority of farms in KY are not large enough that a deer will spend all or most of its time with one particular landowner. (BTW, any tips you can give to keep a deer on a particular tract (like mine[;)]) will be appreciated). If I'm not mistaken, only about 4 % of KY's farms are over 500 acres. The avg. KY farm is about 160 acres.

As far as the actual statewide #, to my limited understanding, that # is irrelevant. No matter how many there are, they are not evenly distributed.

An article in the CJ a few weeks ago said that Pike county has about 6 deer per sq. mile. It also said that Owen county and some of the Western counties have upwards of 40 per sq. mile. Shelby county was also listed as one of the higher-density counties.

At any rate, there are some areas where hunters actually outnumber deer, and if a hunter shoots a doe, that doe may have been the only deer that the next hunter down the trail would have seen.

[rlb165]

BSK also wrote:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>Again, I wouldn't want their jobs. Hunters are never happy with state management.</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Despite how I may come across, I honestly think most hunters are generally happy with the way things are done here. No doubt, most people (even KDFWR personnel) probably have things they'd like to see done a little differently, but all in all I think things are pretty decent. Personally, I just wish there wasn't so much emphasis on the harvesting of does, simply because there are still some areas where does don't need to be thinned out.

A few minutes ago I was in the sporting goods dept. at Walmart. In the next aisle over, some guy was talking about how terrible a job the Dept. is doing with the deer and turkey. He was giving a loud, profanity-laced speech about how the turkey and deer seasons were timed completely wrong, because,"They ain't no bleep-bleep way that you gonna kill no bleep-bleep deer when the bleep-bleep tempature' is bleeping 80 degrees. They know that, and they doing their bleep-bleep best to get the bleeping herd up to a bleeping 1,000,000 deer. They need to move bleeping deer season back to the end of November and get rid of that bleeping blackpowder season."

His hypothesis for the proper timing of Turkey season was essentially the same.

Anyway, after hearing all that, other than being glad I didn't have my kids with me, it occurred to me that I hope I don't come across like that when I post about low deer #'s in some areas. I realize that Dept. employees have a very difficult job, and there is no way they will ever completely satisfy everybody. At the same time, I think they do a pretty bleep-bleep good job of trying.[:D]

[GSP]

RBL, I agree! We have some great people (F&W) working the trenches here in KY. Those guys always seem to catch the flack too. They shouldn't, because I know a many of them and they do their job not for money, but for love of what they do!!!!!

I only have one request for the Dept, get off the BLANKET statement of KILL MORE DOES!!!!!!

Hunters need to RESPONSIBLY manage the areas they hunt!!!!!!

[polcat]

bsk is there any way i can get my hands on this information that you are talking about?i am always will to learn...

The more i learn about deer hunting...The less i seem to know

[polcat]

i had a chance to go to college through voc rehab ,they ask what i would like todo the rest of my life..i told them wildlife management it is a 4 year course both eastren and westren offer it or did..i was married and had a baby on the way, and no way i could swing school and work ...but it would be the only job i could think of that i could get up every mourning and look forward to going to work..

The more i learn about deer hunting...The less i seem to know

[Wildcat]

rib165,
The guy you heard showed one thing, the more he talked the more he showed his true ignorance. Look around this board, most say the rut should peck around Nov 10. If so then the Dept got it right and got gun season at the right time. When they set the season they have no way of knowing what the temp will be opening day, will it be average, above or below??? The rut will happen no mater the temp. The only thing a high temp will do to the rut will force the deer to do most of it at night and less at day time.

To me outside of name calling, nobody on this board comes across like the guy you heard. We are just discussing things like hunting, we do not have to aggre on everything. But to me on a talk forum when the name calling starts that's a personal attack on another person. It's a darn shame some talk forums allow that and they know that kids that want to learn hunting read them. On TnDeer name calling will get you banned.

[DARKCLOUD]

WILDCAT i agree a person should have the same respect for people,
same morals,be it at a walmart,cafe,store or this forum should not matter.
in my earlier post i was not slamming the dept.
i think for the most part they do a good job.
i just think in this case they are listening more to the small amount
of landowners who have crop damage(and most of those will not let you hunt),and to the very powerfull auto. insurance companies(who would like to see us have no deer)instead of listening to hunters.

[Big58cal]

When I was going through college, I did my Undergraduate Research on the weights and ages of deer throughout KY. I worked quite a few check stations (to say the least) in different areas of KY, and I gathered quite a bit of data. All of this was prior to the Telecheck. During this time, I listened to what hunters had to say as far as what they were seeing, what the deer were doing, etc. Myself, as well as other college students and some of the KDFWR biologists were doing the same thing.

Now that Telecheck is the only way, this direct input is lost. As BSK stated, pop models will tell harvest, but not population. This is where the hunters come in. Not only go you get pretty accurate numbers, but you get the "hunter satisfaction" aspect also.

<b>YET ANOTHER REASON TO BRING BACK THE WALK IN CHECK STATIONS!</b>

[kyarcher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Big58cal</i>
[br
Now that Telecheck is the only way, this direct input is lost.
<b>YET ANOTHER REASON TO BRING BACK THE WALK IN CHECK STATIONS!</b>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree but do you ever think that will happen? For that to ever happen the KY F&W would have to admit they were wrong and I can't see that ever happening. Well maybe when there are not enough deer to hunt and they lose enough revenue from the lack of lincenes and tags they may reconsider but by then it will be too late.

[Larry Carter]

Picked up some feed at the mill yesterday. Usual talk about how nice the weather was. I mentioned the deer hunters weren't that thrilled with the higher air temps. Farmers said they hoped something would kill all the deer since they were tired up rounding up cattle after deer knocked down the fencing. Like BSK I'm glad I don't have to set deer seasons.
Off deer a sec,one of the guys I know there said you wouldn't believe how much corn seven elk will knock down. Small herd moved onto his place [out of the buffer zone]. Said they don't seem to eat the corn just flatten it running through it.

[Highbow]

Larry find out where these elk are, FREE MEAT!!! Go get em!!!

[Larry Carter]

That bunch was about five miles from me. Had one using my place this spring but those critters travel a lot. Interesting that none of those cows had calves this year.

[kyarcher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Big58cal</i>
<br />When I received the news release from the KDFWR, I just about hit reply and asked that my comments be sent to Gasset, Day, Grimes, etc. I decided against that because it wouldn't have done any good.


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You were right. I emailed Day about two weeks ago to get Garrard changed from zone 3 back to 4 and haven't gotten a reply yet. He might be busy throwing darts at a map of Ky trying to set zones for next year.

[littleindian]

CHECK MY POST OUT UNDER TELECHECK. I FEEL ITS THE SOLUTION THAT ALL WOULD WANT.

"It's not what you take, but what you leave behind"

[predator]

Folks, you can believe what you want, concerning IF the Dept. is correct with the Zoning. To me, it goes to "credibility". Not long ago, Mr. Day was quoted in the Louisville CJ about the deer herd. He stated that the pre-hunt population was about 600,000 to 650,000 animals. You might remember that I posted this info for all to see. Considering that in the past, we had be led to believ that Ky. was home to "about a million" deer. Now, I checked, and the Dept. said that the old model(DeerCamp) was simply "too hot" and after a change of models, a lot of counties needed backed off. We saw only about 30 or so remain Zone 1.

Now we geta press release after more than a month into the season asking us to kill more does. The population figures have grown by 200,000, in spite of a significant die off from blue tongue. You have to wonder if the Youth Hunt being half of previous years and the ML Hunt being drasticlly down might have sent an alarm to the deer guru that the Doe Reduction Program is in serious trouble. Obviously, not everyone is buying into it anymore.

We're all aware that some people have plenty of deer, while others can't see any, even in the same county. Pockets of deer will continue to be found. But, before the masses will be content, those pockets will have to be removed or thrown out of the mix when Zoning the rest of the county. It's called micro-managing and it's what is needed to bring back the good hunting we had in the past.

"The KDFWR does tons of research to decide which county is Z1, Z2,Z3, or Z4. Depending on what types of forage and habitat you have on your property, the #'s of deer will correlate with the best food source."

Nope, not true. They never see even a portion of the property in a Zone. There are several factors that are considered, but food sources or lack of them is not a factor. Indivdual properties are not considered either.

"The key is to manage your habitat as well as your deer herd. Just because you may be in a zone 1 county doesn't mean you have to manage it that way."

Not what I believe a majority of hunters want, in my opinion. For example if you have 100-150 acres, and manage the hell out of it, you still won't be successful if your neighbors are shooting every deer in sight. Zone limits have to set the tone and offer guidance to what the hunters can take.

Guess what else wasn't a factor in the Zoning, because they were already set before the severity was known--the blue tongue outbreak. I've heard the numbers in some counties and you would think that some re-zoning would be the norm. Yet we see an article in the major newspaper calling for us to kill more does. On top of that, the ppulation is quoted as 200,000 deer more than it was at the end of the birthing season. Strange?

Tom, I've been doing a little digging around, found some of your previous posts.:cool: Seems like we are not that far apart after all, and as you have probably noticed, I've taken you off my ignore list, we are on the same page on the "would you" thread.:D
Keith

[maxcam]

can you say........

[Multidigits]

Keith, You've got way too much time on your hands. Feb. is fast approaching. Your time could be better spent than looking at old posts. Those won't help you a bit, because your argument is with me.

There was a time when I did what your doing now. Learned a lot by doing so, thanks to Dr. Gassett and several one on one sessions or two on one sessions. That was during the Tom Bennett era and KYDFWR is not the same as it was then. You'll likely be given the same crash course if you continue with your cursade. Hope you learn from it.


Maxie, just tell us exactly what happened in that customs shakedown up in dear ole Canada.....is that where you got those pink slippers?

[canemaker]

I agree but do you ever think that will happen? For that to ever happen the KY F&W would have to admit they were wrong and I can't see that ever happening.

Kyarcher....You 'hit the nail on the head'. The dept. will never admit that they were wro wron wrong about anything..lol

There is a lot of good post in here gentleman. However, if we can't all get even close to the same page, how are we ever going to get the numbers together to change anything. As you probably can see, there is an underlying agreement on the facts on all these post. We just need to 'band' together as sportsman and try to change the system. There is lobbying power in numbers.
On a side note, I will throw this out to 'start another arguement'. What would happen if even 1/2 of us on here didn't buy our hunting/fishing license for next year. Would that get their attention?:)
In reality, probably won't happen, but it is a thought......

[c100max]

I was talking to a local CO(will not mention name) and he was very upset that the Dept. is encouraging the killing of so many does. He thinks the entire state wide deer herd has suffered a tremendous decrease in numbers over the past 7 years. He is a veteran officer and has seen all of this unfold. I agree you don't see the numbers you use to. He wished it would go back to the way it was...10 day gun, 1 buck, 1 doe. Bow season start later and end earlier. Just quoting a CO on his opinion of what his own Dept. is requiring him to enforce.

[Duster]

I like the flip flop shoes :D. Was not long ago Multi was saying that EHD was not a problem. Plenty of deer to shoot and big bucks galore. Now it seems to have been more of a problem than I even tought. What changed your mind Multi ??

[Multidigits]

I like the flip flop shoes :D. Was not long ago Multi was saying that EHD was not a problem. Plenty of deer to shoot and big bucks galore. Now it seems to have been more of a problem than I even tought. What changed your mind Multi ??


EHD is a problem, especially if your a deer that has it.

What I said was that POST hunt populations will still be about the same as in the past. Never said there were big bucks galore anywhere, even in Illinois.

Maybe you don't read too good?

Why would you care anyway, being that you don't really hunt anymore?

[Multidigits]

I was talking to a local CO(will not mention name) and he was very upset that the Dept. is encouraging the killing of so many does. He thinks the entire state wide deer herd has suffered a tremendous decrease in numbers over the past 7 years. He is a veteran officer and has seen all of this unfold. I agree you don't see the numbers you use to. He wished it would go back to the way it was...10 day gun, 1 buck, 1 doe. Bow season start later and end earlier. Just quoting a CO on his opinion of what his own Dept. is requiring him to enforce.


CO's don't enforce what someone kills. That's up to the individual hunter and their freezer capacity. You can hunt in a Zone 1 and never even kill anything if you want.

BTW--CO's and PLB's are always asked for their personal opinions before the zoning is set in Feb/Mar.

[predator]

Keith, You've got way too much time on your hands. Feb. is fast approaching. Your time could be better spent than looking at old posts. Those won't help you a bit, because your argument is with me.


And this is from a guy with 18,000 posts!!:eek: Going through old threads is really quite quick and easy once you learn the system.:cool:, glad to know that there have been previous concerns with the deer herd before I joined up. Hope you and your family has a very Merry Christmas. :):)
Keith

[Multidigits]

Yeah, you should know the history behind what happen in 2002 and 2003, so go ahead and look. Been where your at, although there were several objectives back then other than making sure there was a buck behind every tree.

One of those concerns back then was trying to help rezone Hardin, Meade, Breck and Grayson after they had been zone 1's from the first time they went doe crazy. Things are a lot different now and now we know how long it takes to get back what gets shot. I don't see too many people over killing does anymore in those counties. Most don't even come close to killing the limit. When it first started, they did.

And today, still have the same concerns, just go about things different than you do. I've learned that everything isn't the blame of the Dept. and that a lot of stuff you hear from those with a grudge isn't true. Almost got sued over one of those and found out how quick you get left alone when that happens.

[treerat]

i think the only reason they are pushing the shoot the doe program is so the state can make more money from the bonus tags,,,,,

[naturalelite]

i think the only reason they are pushing the shoot the doe program is so the state can make more money from the bonus tags,,,,,
Well I guess that could be a theory. If they were going to do that why not just raise the tags across the board to ensure that you get every big game hunter out there. Why focus on just the guys out there actually killing deer.

I would think it would have more to do with certain areas of the state needing to thin the herd down some. Just a guess on my part though. Or it could just give people more of an opportunity to be out there hunting if they have already taken a couple of deer. I know the worst season I ever had I tagged out the first week of bow season and had to watch everyone else hunt the rest of the year.

[Multidigits]

i think the only reason they are pushing the shoot the doe program is so the state can make more money from the bonus tags,,,,,

So, just how much are they making off of bimus tags???? How many sold???? Priced at 2 for $15 doesn't sound like money is the object there?

[ez]

$17.50.....................ez

[slickhead slayer]

I agree but do you ever think that will happen? For that to ever happen the KY F&W would have to admit they were wrong and I can't see that ever happening.

Kyarcher....You 'hit the nail on the head'. The dept. will never admit that they were wro wron wrong about anything..lol

There is a lot of good post in here gentleman. However, if we can't all get even close to the same page, how are we ever going to get the numbers together to change anything. As you probably can see, there is an underlying agreement on the facts on all these post. We just need to 'band' together as sportsman and try to change the system. There is lobbying power in numbers.
On a side note, I will throw this out to 'start another arguement'. What would happen if even 1/2 of us on here didn't buy our hunting/fishing license for next year. Would that get their attention?:)
In reality, probably won't happen, but it is a thought......

Why would we "band together and change the sytem"?:confused: We have a deer program here in Ky that is considered the benchmark. What "system" are you wanting to change?
I have no problem with some suggesting tweeking a county here or there, but to change the whole system. Seems extreme.

[retiredbowhunter]

The current Kentucky Deer Program is by far the best program going in the country.

I echo Slickhead Slayer.

[c100max]

CO's don't enforce what someone kills. That's up to the individual hunter and their freezer capacity. You can hunt in a Zone 1 and never even kill anything if you want.

BTW--CO's and PLB's are always asked for their personal opinions before the zoning is set in Feb/Mar.

I think he was just venting on his opinion on the killing of too many does. He said that when he goes to the woods, it is not the same as it use to be back a few years. He and I were just talking, I was just using it as an example. Not trying to start anything.

[maxcam]

There was a time when I did what your doing now. Learned a lot by doing so, thanks to Dr. Gassett and several one on one sessions or two on one sessions. That was during the Tom Bennett era and KYDFWR is not the same as it was then. You'll likely be given the same crash course if you continue with your cursade. Hope you learn from it.


They didnt threaten to regulate your leasing business out of existance did they? :rolleyes:

As for the Flip Flops.....Those were John Kerry's.....He said you should have them now!

[Multidigits]

They didnt threaten to regulate your leasing business out of existance did they? :rolleyes:

As for the Flip Flops.....Those were John Kerry's.....He said you should have them now!


Naw...it was selling travel thru the LKS. One of the Commissioners said it was a scam?

[maxcam]

Naw...it was selling travel thru the LKS. One of the Commissioners said it was a scam?

Your assertion is way off base......The LKS owns that website and the profits they make help fund the League.....

Of course if you got your info from the head dude from the father and son poaching ring down in eastern Kentucky I can see where you might be misinformed......It would serve him well to teach himself and his the difference between what is legal and what isnt!

[Fat Tony]

I'm sure its been brought up in this thread already....no way I'm reading the whole thing...why not go to an earn a buck system where you need to tag a doe in certian zones before you can tag a buck? Nevermind...there would be 40,000 does called in v