Sewer Line Replacement

[Crockett]

I may have to have my septic/cavitet discharge line replaced. It runs from my cavitet down the side of my property and connects in with a main line along the street. My neighbor thinks that the stink in his house is coming from my line. I noticed a stink in the air too. I haven't seen any sort of water seepage on the surface.

Long story short, in case it is me does anyone know how much it would cost to have around 100 ft of sewer line buried between 10 and 3 feet below the ground replaced? I pray to God that it isn't me. I can't afford this right now. We're having somebody come out to run a camera through the drain to figure out if it is us. The neighbor said that they would pay for that to be done since it is affecting them but they think that it is coming from us.

[trust me]

If you don't have any sewerage rising to the surface, how in heck can he say it is coming from your line? That guy may be smelling something, but he needs to check vents and run a snake through his own system.

I'd be real leery of letting somebody start monkeying with my lines, even if he is paying for it. That opens the door for him to start making all kinds of claims against you, reasonable or otherwise.

If it were me in your position, I'd run down to the store and rent a small hand operated snake and I'd run my lines to see if I had a blockage of some kind. Run the vents from the roof top with a small snake as well. What ever I found, I'd keep it to myself and tell the neighbor that everything is fine, must be his problem.

The sewer system is supposed to be closed everywhere with the exception of your rooftop vents. The drains are protected by traps...unless your neighbor has a trap that has gone dry. He may have a floor drain or an old sink or toilet not being used, and the trap water has evaporated. That would give him all kinds of sewer odors in his house. He needs to have the municipal sewer folks come out and blow smoke in the manhole; if he as a dry trap, he'll find it in a hurry.

My workplace had a floor drain that got carpeted over and forgotten, and after a few years the trap dried out and we had a devil of a time tracking it down.

[daking]

If your sewer line were collapsed or otherwise compromised, it would clog. If a line is buried a minimum of three feet (and I'd guess it's more like 42", and it was leaking, the leaked liquid would tend to percolate DOWN because, well, gravity does that. The stench associated with that would have to work through the ground up 42" and pass into the air. More likely, if your line was damaged, it would allow mud, gravel and stuff from the backfill around it to enter the line and clog it. You'd know you have a problem long before your neighbor did.

Is the smell coming up in your neighbor's house? Certainly, your sewer line is not connected to his. Each residence ususally has its own private sewer tap and line (I say usually only because there might be one in a thousand that's something odd). If your line isn't attached to his house, then how would it cause gas to rise in his place?

He's looking to you to solve his problem. If everything goes south when you pull the trip lever on the porcelain throne and there's no standing sewage in your yard (and with the recent freeze, you'd really see it), tell him to keep the hell away from your sewer and get a plumber to come in and solve HIS problem.

If the unlikely situation of needing a new sewer line happens, figure about 10-12 bucks a foot.

[predator]

If you don't have any sewerage rising to the surface, how in heck can he say it is coming from your line?

The sewer system is supposed to be closed everywhere with the exception of your rooftop vents. The drains are protected by traps...unless your neighbor has a trap that has gone dry. He may have a floor drain or an old sink or toilet not being used, and the trap water has evaporated. That would give him all kinds of sewer odors in his house. He needs to have the municipal sewer folks come out and blow smoke in the manhole; if he as a dry trap, he'll find it in a hurry.



This should be checked first. We encounter this often when we build houses with several baths. A lot of time bathtub traps dry out after few months of no use and sewer smell will seep in. Also his rooftop vent could still be plugged. My roofer has said he has reroofed a many 15-20 year old houses that still had the vents plugged.

[Crockett]

There is no standing water/sewage that I have seen. We don't get any sort of problem in our home - no smell, no clogs, no leaks. The neighbors have had their drains and tank checked. They are willing to pay for somebody to come out and scope our drain. I'm willing to go along with that because I have noticed a sewage smell outside in the air from time to time but have been unable to pinpoint it. I would think now that the problem is either them or us.

My main reason for tending to agree with them that it could possibly be coming from us is because they were able to tell me when I usually get showers in the morning due to an increase in the stink in their house. The company that is going to check the lines is coming out tomorrow. They too voiced to me that they don't think that it is my problem and told me that they didn't want me to have to spend the money unless I absolutely wanted to (sign of a good company if you ask me). I told them that my neighbor said that he would pay for our lines to be checked. They also asked if they would be able to check out the neighbor's basement. I called the neighbor and he said that somebody would be there. This whole thing just plain stinks (pun intended).

[trust me]

Hmmm...let's say your neighbor does smell gas when you take a shower. That is normal, since your vent is working and the slug of water is pushing the gas up and out for a short period. Your neighbor would have to be standing outside and downwind, and he'd only get a whiff or two, nothing worth causing a scene about.

If the smell is in his house, I still say it is his problem, and he wouldn't be monkeying with my lines.

Those cameras are pretty neat to watch, though. Makes me claustrophobic just to see it.

EDIT: Is it possible the two houses are on the same line? Maybe built by the same person at the same time, maybe two rental houses owned by the same person? That camera deal also has a locator beacon so they can trace your line's path. That may show that the two are connected. That's the only way your shower could affect the smell in their house. Interesting.

[MsgMills]

Man I can't wait to hear/see the conclusion to this one...Really interesting....

[JDMiller]

I may have to have my septic/cavitet discharge line replaced. It runs from my cavitet down the side of my property and connects in with a main line along the street.

If your connecting to a main along the street .....your not dealing with septic issues. If your not clogged or noticing any sewage surfacing...your house sewer is more than likely OK unless you share a common sewer where you share before it hits the main. A common / shared sewer is against code unless its an apartment / duplex type of building but its occasionally slipped in. In this case ...if clogged.. you would push sewage to the lowest point...either your house or his....and someone would have a heck of a mess. A common waste IS the only way you /him could be causing a problem inside either one of your homes.

If its just odor / sewer gas your smelling....and its only in his house....he has a trap dry /breached or just possibly a commode seal leaking letting the gas escape. A commode / water closet is trapped only through the commode.... the wax seal is your only protection from sewer gas. Regardless......he's the one with the problem.

I will note..... a city sewer problem ....clogs on the city owned lines can & do ...cause strong sewer gas odors venting from manholes or improperly sealed clean outs. However you would note this smell outside ....all the time. Also.... Daking is about right on the price..... 10-15$ a ft for sewer replacement. Your existing line could be smoke tested if its in question but if its a common sewer...and he's got trap issues it will smoke inside his house.

[Crockett]

EDIT: Is it possible the two houses are on the same line? Maybe built by the same person at the same time, maybe two rental houses owned by the same person? That camera deal also has a locator beacon so they can trace your line's path. That may show that the two are connected. That's the only way your shower could affect the smell in their house. Interesting.

The two homes discharge lines end up meeting eventually at the street. My line comes down and eventually ties in with his at his driveway. The conjoined lines then venture down to a creek.

If there is a problem down stream where the lines conjoin I could see him getting the problem before me since he is downstream and hence lower than we are.

I'm mainly agreeing to have our lines inspected for two reasons. 1) If it is us I don't want to be putting people out/making them miserable because of a problem with our system. 2) Liability - if it is us and I don't do anything about it I could see the legal system making me liable for any sort of damage that may be done to their place.

I am a bit perplexed how if we do have a cracked/busted pipe why we aren't noticing any problems with our sewage backing up. I would think that if the line was broken it would easily become clogged with dirt/debris. I will find out tomorrow when the plumber comes out. I'll be sure and post what the result is.

[JDMiller]

The two homes discharge lines end up meeting eventually at the street. My line comes down and eventually ties in with his at his driveway. The conjoined lines then venture down to a creek.

If there is a problem down stream where the lines conjoin I could see him getting the problem before me since he is downstream and hence lower than we are.

I'm mainly agreeing to have our lines inspected for two reasons. 1) If it is us I don't want to be putting people out/making them miserable because of a problem with our system. 2) Liability - if it is us and I don't do anything about it I could see the legal system making me liable for any sort of damage that may be done to their place.

I am a bit perplexed how if we do have a cracked/busted pipe why we aren't noticing any problems with our sewage backing up. I would think that if the line was broken it would easily become clogged with dirt/debris. I will find out tomorrow when the plumber comes out. I'll be sure and post what the result is.

Crockett..... I'm a licensed master plumber and your probably taking the best route by videoing your sewer line. It will give you a good idea of integrity / condition of piping and show any laterals coming into it in case your neighbors tied in. Its hard to say without looking at it but I really dont expect thats the problem.

Depending on age ....theres a lot of different materials that were used. Clay or "ironsburg" were the most popular if your place is older. Roots are your biggest enemy with clay and "ironsburg" just deteriates over time. It will actually push up from the bottom making the piping in the shape of a upside down heart. Replacement is your only option with the latter. However most house sewers (outside the home) are usually never 100% air tight unless its all PVC & glued. As I've mentioned before.....a smoke test is the only real way of knowing just how much leakage is occuring concerning sewer gas.

I expect since your not having any real problems as far as a clogged sewer....its probably OK. Fowl odors are sometimes hard to trace. Weather conditions also play a factor in odors settling to the ground from the vent on the roof. Other than trap seals inside the home ...the only other way sewer gas could be causing the problem is through a clean out or test tee not properly plugged. You should have one located within two feet of the foundation (outside) and one at the property line / easement / street. They should be provided with a threaded opening and just need to be plugged.

Let us know what you find out...but I really dont think you have a problem. I think your neighbor does if he's smelling it inside his home.

[maxcam]

Im willing to bet there is a meth lab in your neighborhood.....Both produce the stinky methane gas that is noxious and since you are not smelling the odor in your house I , meaning no back up or dry trap and the odor appears to be "outside" I would be suspicious of a drug lab somewhere!

[ryan hickey]

Im willing to bet there is a meth lab in your neighborhood.....Both produce the stinky methane gas that is noxious and since you are not smelling the odor in your house I , meaning no back up or dry trap and the odor appears to be "outside" I would be suspicious of a drug lab somewhere!



interesting observation max! never woulda thought about that....

[JP]

I'm confused...you said "main line at the street" which makes me think municipal sewer, but you said your neighbor had a septic tank/lines....Clarify which you have for me. Where exactly is the stink---inside or outside, or both? There are tricks to eliminate this on a septic tank if its inside and it involves cutting off the sewer gas.

2nd....JD is right...and a plumber would know...the video equip. they have nowadays is sweet and will diagnose any issues, but smell alone seems to be a weak determinant for this as running this equip is not cheap...neither are plumbers (no offense JD :) ) I wouldn't do this if you are having no issues inside or outside the house because if its just stink, its probably sewer gas. Smoking the line could determine leaks just as easy but it isn't as accurate and could cause a smoky house if there is a leak.

My expertise falls more on the septic tanks/systems rather than the city sewer connects, so I'll help if I can. Additional info can help me...if its city sewer, JD is your man.

[Crockett]

The plumbing company came out and ran the camera down my clean out. They were able to get down the PVC clean out up to where it joined up with the original (50 year-old) cast iron pipe. The pipe was so blistered and messed up that they could not get the camera into it. He told me right there that was bad news. He said that the opening was around an inch in diameter and that there was a good chance that the line was failing somewhere in the system. He then went over to the neighbor's house and ran the camera down his down spout. Turns out that the neighbor's down spout lines tie in with my sewer discharge line. They put some dye in my line and were able to watch the green water flow past the camera where the down spout lines tie in. The plumber had the following theory. That the foundation footer drains also tie in with my discharge line. My discharge line is in such bad shape that there is probably some pooling and some gas getting trapped in the lines. That gas is then backing up to my neighbors footer lines and down spout lines and that is why they are getting the gas smell.

The end result is that I'm going to have to replace my lines because the plumber said that they are going to fail totally soon and when that happens I would have a mess in my house. The bad news is that the line at the septic tank origin is 15 feet below ground. So I'm looking at having to get a contractor out to dig a line around 120 feet between depths of 15 feet and 3.5 feet below ground. Oh, and it runs along the side of my garage. The guy who inspected the line said that his company wouldn't touch that kind of a job. So it looks like I need to start some heavy praying because I don't know how I'm going to finance something like this.

Oh, and the line that it ties into down by the street is the storm sewer.

[trust me]

Dang. Now I wish you hadn't shared that with us.

I don't know all the rules and laws, but you better hush up the fact that your sewer runs into a storm drain. That is a big no-no. Hurry and fix that before somebody official finds out.

[quackrstackr]

Since your neighbor's lines tie into yours, is it not unreasonable to ask them to shoulder part of the financial burden?

I thought that was a code violation in itself.

Unless he wants to continue smelling gas or have his lines rerouted completely on his own dime, seems logical to me that he would pitch in.

[keith meador]

help me understand something, are you on a sewer main, package plant, or septic field? so far i have read it discharges to a creek, runs thru a septic tank, and ties in with a neighbor....that whole thing sounds strange...is this rental property? duplex? area developed by a developer? your line should not tie it with the adjoining property. i would definately run a seperate line if it were me....and make sure anything i did was at code. you say the line is deep, why is that? does it come out of a basement? if so, you could add a lift grinder and eleminate the depth issue by coming off of the main floor of the house. dont know if that will save money initially, and may cost more in the long run.....i would also make sure any drain lines i had were not tied into my sewer line.

[JDMiller]

The plumbing company came out and ran the camera down my clean out. They were able to get down the PVC clean out up to where it joined up with the original (50 year-old) cast iron pipe. The pipe was so blistered and messed up that they could not get the camera into it. He told me right there that was bad news. He said that the opening was around an inch in diameter and that there was a good chance that the line was failing somewhere in the system. He then went over to the neighbor's house and ran the camera down his down spout. Turns out that the neighbor's down spout lines tie in with my sewer discharge line. They put some dye in my line and were able to watch the green water flow past the camera where the down spout lines tie in. The plumber had the following theory. That the foundation footer drains also tie in with my discharge line. My discharge line is in such bad shape that there is probably some pooling and some gas getting trapped in the lines. That gas is then backing up to my neighbors footer lines and down spout lines and that is why they are getting the gas smell.

The end result is that I'm going to have to replace my lines because the plumber said that they are going to fail totally soon and when that happens I would have a mess in my house. The bad news is that the line at the septic tank origin is 15 feet below ground. So I'm looking at having to get a contractor out to dig a line around 120 feet between depths of 15 feet and 3.5 feet below ground. Oh, and it runs along the side of my garage. The guy who inspected the line said that his company wouldn't touch that kind of a job. So it looks like I need to start some heavy praying because I don't know how I'm going to finance something like this.

Oh, and the line that it ties into down by the street is the storm sewer.


Crockett....... if I'm understanding you right ....your neighbors down spouts & foundation drains are tied into your sanitary sewer. In most municipalities....this is not allowed. Cross connections between sanitary & storm means sewer gas was venting out in his gutters and possibly through blocks in the foundation since most of this type of piping is preforated and none protected by a trap. Theses circumstances of smelling sewer gas just didnt start ...apparently its always been that way.

As far as your piping being bad.... well..thats something your going to have to contend with sooner or later. You mention cast iron.... unless its all under concrete its probably "ironsburg" which is black and looks like cast but its not as strong. Your waste system under your house is probably cast but changes material a few feet from the house.

The way I look at it......if your going to have to replace it... your neighbors lines are not your problem if their on your property and common sewers serving two homes is not permissable. I would have a new sewer installed from your house to the invert at the street. Your neighbor will have to do the same. This solves a lot of problems and a new or replacement sewer must be permitted by a licensed master plumber and inspected by a state plumbing inspector(unless your in Jefferson Co. ...they have their own inspectors). You could also get a home owners permit but if your not doing it...its better to let your plumbing contractor do it.

Also...A second opinion does'nt hurt. I question them telling you that you have a 1"in opening and yet your not already having sewer clogging issues. The scale and stuff you see in the pipe...unless its roots....can be cleaned by a jet wash device or a good cutter head on a sewer machine. Plumbers need to eat too..:D but I wouldnt want someone to be taken either.

Your depth.....15 ft.. is probably only at the street. Sewer taps at the street are usually deep but the connecting sewer piping(yours) will usually drop to this depth by 45's very near the street. This depth is expensive to work. It requires large excavations & shoring / trench box to work not to mention other utilities you may have to work around. You may not have to go this far to reconnect to good pipe. Good luck with that.

[maxcam]

Good advice JD......I was hoping for the meth lab though.....

Ive never in my life heard of storm drainage being hooked to sanitary sewers.....Can you imagine the scene if they smoked tested that neighborhood? :eek:

[JDMiller]

Ive never in my life heard of storm drainage being hooked to sanitary sewers.....Can you imagine the scene if they smoked tested that neighborhood? :eek:

Max ...years ago that was pretty common. Ky. Plumbing Code did'nt come into effect until the 60's. We got into this at Murray State University several years ago when the city was cracking down. We smoked every line on campus one summer checking for cross connections. One of the funniest things I ever saw was one of our buildings we had major issues on the roof drains and if you ever been on campus , you could appreciate this.

Wilson Hall...an educational building.. has the gargoyles on each corner of the roof as part of the architecture. The gargoyles mouths were directly in front of the drains on each corner. We lit off a 3 minute smoke bomb and started the blowers at the manholes. These gargolyes were blowing some pretty wicked smoke rings right out of their mouths.It was the weidest thing you ever seen and three minutes of these thing belching smoke attracted quite a crowd.

[JP]

Crockett....... if I'm understanding you right ....your neighbors down spouts & foundation drains are tied into your sanitary sewer. In most municipalities....this is not allowed. Cross connections between sanitary & storm means sewer gas was venting out in his gutters and possibly through blocks in the foundation since most of this type of piping is preforated and none protected by a trap. Theses circumstances of smelling sewer gas just didnt start ...apparently its always been that way.

As far as your piping being bad.... well..thats something your going to have to contend with sooner or later. You mention cast iron.... unless its all under concrete its probably "ironsburg" which is black and looks like cast but its not as strong. Your waste system under your house is probably cast but changes material a few feet from the house.

The way I look at it......if your going to have to replace it... your neighbors lines are not your problem if their on your property and common sewers serving two homes is not permissable. I would have a new sewer installed from your house to the invert at the street. Your neighbor will have to do the same. This solves a lot of problems and a new or replacement sewer must be permitted by a licensed master plumber and inspected by a state plumbing inspector(unless your in Jefferson Co. ...they have their own inspectors). You could also get a home owners permit but if your not doing it...its better to let your plumbing contractor do it.

Also...A second opinion does'nt hurt. I question them telling you that you have a 1"in opening and yet your not already having sewer clogging issues. The scale and stuff you see in the pipe...unless its roots....can be cleaned by a jet wash device or a good cutter head on a sewer machine. Plumbers need to eat too..:D but I wouldnt want someone to be taken either.

Your depth.....15 ft.. is probably only at the street. Sewer taps at the street are usually deep but the connecting sewer piping(yours) will usually drop to this depth by 45's very near the street. This depth is expensive to work. It requires large excavations & shoring / trench box to work not to mention other utilities you may have to work around. You may not have to go this far to reconnect to good pipe. Good luck with that.

What he said :) And he's right...there is likely no way your plumbing at the house is 15ft deep unless A. You have a deep basement and B. The manhole you connect to is REAL deep....You are relying on gravity you know.


I'm still confused about the septic tank issue...and now its tied to a storm drain. (???) I know some people keep their septic tank and abandon their leach lines when they connect to municipal sewer...but sounds to me like you and your neighbor have a glorified straight pipe disposal right now....because most storm drains are not treated, simply disposed over the hill into a creek. Fix it...its cheaper than the fines. Trust me....I cite these all the time. :)

And lastly...just because your existing line is running close to the garage, doesn't mean your new has to. You are laying a brand new line, so lay it where ever you want so long as you can meet codes. Don't sweat the existing line, just abandon it. Be prepared for "tap fees"....these are high...if you are not currently connected to city sewer, you might have to pay this....Your plumber will help..Good luck

[quackrstackr]

Sounds like the drain tile from his septic tank is a pipe straight to the crick. :confused:

[JP]

Sounds like the drain tile from his septic tank is a pipe straight to the crick. :confused:


pretty much, yeah....or at least probably. As I said, glorified straight pipe :)

[WBBP]

The first thing I would do is make your neighbor disconnect his gutter drains from your sewer drain pipe. His gutter drains currently solve his stormwater issue, but allow the sewer gas a good conduit back to his house, ie....he is causing the problem.

Since you are not having a hydrogen sulfide (smell) problem, it seems like that should solve the problem.

Stormwater infiltration into sanititary sewer is a huge problem everywhere for wastewater plants since it increases overall flow to the wastewater plant everytime it rains. Just imagine, a wastewater treatment plant that treats 5 million gallons/day of sanitary sewer when the weather is good, may end up treating 7 million gallons/day when it rains. It causes the cost for treating wastewater to go uop greatly and the residients pay for it.

K

[maxcam]

Max ...years ago that was pretty common. Ky. Plumbing Code did'nt come into effect until the 60's. We got into this at Murray State University several years ago when the city was cracking down. We smoked every line on campus one summer checking for cross connections. One of the funniest things I ever saw was one of our buildings we had major issues on the roof drains and if you ever been on campus , you could appreciate this.

Wilson Hall...an educational building.. has the gargoyles on each corner of the roof as part of the architecture. The gargoyles mouths were directly in front of the drains on each corner. We lit off a 3 minute smoke bomb and started the blowers at the manholes. These gargolyes were blowing some pretty wicked smoke rings right out of their mouths.It was the weidest thing you ever seen and three minutes of these thing belching smoke attracted quite a crowd.

Im surprised Dan Akryod and Bill Murray didnt show up.....that is too funny!

[HEAVYSETDOOBER]

The sewer system is supposed to be closed everywhere with the exception of your rooftop vents. The drains are protected by traps...unless your neighbor has a trap that has gone dry. He may have a floor drain or an old sink or toilet not being used, and the trap water has evaporated. That would give him all kinds of sewer odors in his house. He needs to have the municipal sewer folks come out and blow smoke in the manhole; if he as a dry trap, he'll find it in a hurry.




The dry water trap is kinda what im thinking to. I'd tell him to run water in every trap that he has in the house. Trust Me took the words right outa my mouth

[MsgMills]

Man this is getting more interesting by the minute, hope everything comes out ok for ya.....:)

[JP]

Stormwater infiltration into sanititary sewer is a huge problem everywhere for wastewater plants since it increases overall flow to the wastewater plant everytime it rains. Just imagine, a wastewater treatment plant that treats 5 million gallons/day of sanitary sewer when the weather is good, may end up treating 7 million gallons/day when it rains. It causes the cost for treating wastewater to go uop greatly and the residients pay for it.

K

Very true.....IF the storm drain goes to municipal sewer...not all of them do...some simply drain into rivers/creeks/etc.

[Crockett]

My wife and I have decided to start getting estimates on this job after Easter. I have come up with a few ideas to propose to the plumbing contractors when they come out to give me some estimates. If any of you have any other ideas that could be cost effective I'd like to hear them. For starters, the plumbers who inspected the line said that they wouldn't be surprised if the bids came in around $20,000. Now, since I'm not Mr. Money bags and 20,000 is WAAAY more than I have or would care to spend I'm going into this assuming that they are correct.

Rehash of the details: Replace around 150+ feet of 4 inch orangeburg sewer line that starts out at a depth of 10 feet underground and goes to a minimum depth of around 36" where it taps into a main shared by a few homes.

Here are the 3 ideas I have and I'm going to propose to the plumbing contractors.
1) Standard trench digging with line replacement.
2) Standard trench digging with new line installed. If they can route a new pipe in a shorter distance that would be cheaper then I'm all for it.
3) Trenchless pipe replacement. I've been told that this is very expensive but I don't know for sure so I'm going to bring it up as an option anyway.
4) Installation of some sort of sewage pump in the tank that will bring the liquid waste up from a depth of 10+ feet underground to a depth of 4 feet. Then install a new line at the 4 foot depth. Here I'm thinking that with less digging it would be cheaper.

I'm liking the number 4 idea the most right now. Once I have the bids come in I'll let everyone know how it goes.

[treerat]

I feel for you crockett,,,we have about 2 acres out in the country,,no close neighbors,,we have a septic tank and leach bed here,,we are glad it was completely replaced several years before we bought it,,,man,,,$20,000 sounds real steep to do the work,,,hope it works ok for you though,,

[JDMiller]

My wife and I have decided to start getting estimates on this job after Easter. I have come up with a few ideas to propose to the plumbing contractors when they come out to give me some estimates. If any of you have any other ideas that could be cost effective I'd like to hear them. For starters, the plumbers who inspected the line said that they wouldn't be surprised if the bids came in around $20,000. Now, since I'm not Mr. Money bags and 20,000 is WAAAY more than I have or would care to spend I'm going into this assuming that they are correct.

Rehash of the details: Replace around 150+ feet of 4 inch orangeburg sewer line that starts out at a depth of 10 feet underground and goes to a minimum depth of around 36" where it taps into a main shared by a few homes.

Here are the 3 ideas I have and I'm going to propose to the plumbing contractors.
1) Standard trench digging with line replacement.
2) Standard trench digging with new line installed. If they can route a new pipe in a shorter distance that would be cheaper then I'm all for it.
3) Trenchless pipe replacement. I've been told that this is very expensive but I don't know for sure so I'm going to bring it up as an option anyway.
4) Installation of some sort of sewage pump in the tank that will bring the liquid waste up from a depth of 10+ feet underground to a depth of 4 feet. Then install a new line at the 4 foot depth. Here I'm thinking that with less digging it would be cheaper.

I'm liking the number 4 idea the most right now. Once I have the bids come in I'll let everyone know how it goes.

First off ......this parts alway confused me..... if your on a "septic" system then yes....you have a tank...a "septic tank" . If your on city sewer.....then you do not have a tank. The line runs to your property line / street and it connects with the city sewer system. The other part that I'm not following is your depth is 10'ft to 3". Plumbing rule #1.....****** rolls down hill. Your 3' depth is at your home the 10'ft depth is at the street.

Most sewage pumps operate at enough head to gravity flow. Otherword's.... it will lift the waste to point above above city sewer elevation then it would discharge into your house sewer and gravity flow to the connection at the street. Usually a residential sewer pump discharge is 2" and will reconnect to a minimum sewer pipe of 4". I do not reccommend a sewage pump system if its not necessary. Your reliant on a mechanical device / electricity to operate.....not to mention continual maintenance.

I think you just need to get some estimates.....unless someone is scamming you.....your probably not going to exceed $5000 for the job unless you have some concrete that would be removed or something really unique to drive the cost up. Code for percent grades or amount of fall is a minimum of 1/8"inch per foot and no more than 1/4"inch per ft. At a beginning grade of 36"inches figured at 1/8..... 150ft would only be adding 18 3/4"inches aditional depth throughout your system . Your primary ditch excavation would only be only around 5' at the furthermost piping. If the city connection is 10' then you would roll two 45"s to go from 5' to 10'....otherwords...you will only have one small area of the system at this depth. A trencher usually wont work at this depth and code will require you to have 6"inches of grillage around the pipe. In most cases the contractor will use a backhoe for sewers.

You also mentioned "trenchless" ....I refer to this as direct boring and I've never seen it done for sewers. Gas , telephone , electric , fiber ..yes..but not for domestic water service or sanitary sewer. The main reason .....code requires it to be uncovered for inspection with the exception you can in most cases install "sight tubes" at certain point if weather conditions require you to cover the pipe. Sewer piping can & will float out of the ditch if not backfilled before heavy rains. Also ...as I mentioned above ...grade percentages of fall are required. Direct boring machines can definitely adjust depth but its would have to be very percise to stay between 1/8" & 1/4". Grades that exceed more than 1/4" inch per foot will allow liquids to flow faster than solids. Otherwords....when you flush ....the water will flow but leaves the crap sitting in the pipe.

I think you need to find a licensed plumbing contractor that you can trust and let him give you the best option for replacement.

[Crockett]

I had 7 plumbers come out and look at my problem. It has been over a week and only 1 plumber has given me a bid back. He gave it to me that very same day. He came out to the house twice and then wrote up and emailed me the bid in the evening. I haven't seen or heard from hide nor hair of the others. I called some of the others yesterday and they were beating around the bush about forgetting about it, putting something in the mail that evening etc. One guy even asked if I had received any other bids yet and what they're price range was. Sorry, if you can't come up with a price on your own then you probably don't know what you're doing.

The one plumber said that he would have no problem digging the trench that was needed and doing all of the pipe work. He said that even digging that deep right next to our garage isn't a problem. He is insured up to 4 million dollars and bonded. He sounds to me like he is eager to do the job and I like how he has handled things so far. I just don't want to base my decision on only 1 bid. His bid was for $7,650 to remove 3 trees, replace around 200' of 4" line from the house to the tank and then from the tank to the sidewalk by the street. He wrote up that he would install 4 to 5 clean outs and the pipe would be laid in "grits" and all excavating would be compacted and brought back up to grade. I thought that the price was very resonable considering that a lot of the pipe is around 10 to 12 feet deep.

I have had several people tell me to make sure that he doesn't bump up the price after he starts working. Can he do this? Is there a way to prevent him from doing this?

[keith meador]

get an itemized statement from him, and have him put it in writing that any change to the original has to be approved by you first. have him break down materials, labor and misc.....i would also ask for references from him...and would call the pluming inspector and see if he has had any troubles with the guys work.

[JDMiller]

I have had several people tell me to make sure that he doesn't bump up the price after he starts working. Can he do this? Is there a way to prevent him from doing this?

Theres always a posibillity he could experience a unforseen problem and cost you more. Its been more than once we have hit other utilities and the like because no one knew they were there. If you ever saw a 200 pair telephone cable severed ...its not pretty and can get pretty expensive to get spliced back. A fiber optic cable is even worse. From the contractors point of view...dealing with plumbing / piping that you have never seen.....his price is usually padded enough to cover slight issues that might come up.

In your situation I would get the bid in writing and ask the contractor if this is a "not to exceed" price. If not.... ask for it and get "not to exceed" written on his estimate. You also need to cover the bases on his responsibilities on locating utilities. I would make it his responsibility to contact Kentucky Underground (CBUD) and get the area cleared prior to his start of work. Make sure he attains all the necessary permits and is responsible for getting his work inspected by the plumbing inspector / health dept(private sewage disposal) before he receives payment.

Get as much as possible spelled out in writing and dont forget little details such as disposal of old pipe and concrete removed from sidewalks. A contractor will do what you agree to and not one thing more....without extra cost. Hopefully you wont have any issues .

[keith meador]

Theres always a posibillity he could experience a unforseen problem and cost you more. Its been more than once we have hit other utilities and the like because no one knew they were there. If you ever saw a 200 pair telephone cable severed ...its not pretty and can get pretty expensive to get spliced back. A fiber optic cable is even worse. From the contractors point of view...dealing with plumbing / piping that you have never seen.....his price is usually padded enough to cover slight issues that might come up.

In your situation I would get the bid in writing and ask the contractor if this is a "not to exceed" price. If not.... ask for it and get "not to exceed" written on his estimate. You also need to cover the bases on his responsibilities on locating utilities. I would make it his responsibility to contact Kentucky Underground (CBUD) and get the area cleared prior to his start of work. Make sure he attains all the necessary permits and is responsible for getting his work inspected by the plumbing inspector / health dept(private sewage disposal) before he receives payment.

Get as much as possible spelled out in writing and don't forget little details such as disposal of old pipe and concrete removed from sidewalks. A contractor will do what you agree to and not one thing more....without extra cost. Hopefully you wont have any issues .


i locate underground utilities for a living. i can tell you this.....do not make the call to the BUD center on the contractors behalf. it is the excavators responsibility to make that call, and he assumes all liability for any damages that occur on your property. do not let him tell you that you are in any way responsible for any debt he incurs as a result of a dig in. check out www.kyunderground.com (http://www.kyunderground.com) this covers your responsibly if you are excavating. here is why you do not call on his behalf......if he goes out and digs, you are the only person with a valid request for the markings on your property. if he damages a utility, he can pack up and head home. when the utility company arrives, the only paperwork trail leads to you, meaning, you will get the bill for repairs. that leaves you to fight it out with the contractor as to who will pay.....get that in writing in your contract as well that he is to ensure underground utilities in the area are located....the phone number to bud is 1-800-752-6007, or 811...