Elk Tag Peev

[Suthrn*]

Was talkin with my boss today about drawing the elk tags and we were discussing the elk tag reqs a bit. Didnt know this myself but i was told that a nonresident can apply for an elk tag without even having bought a state license.. If thats true its got to be the biggest load of it ive ever heard of. They should at least make it mandatory to have a hunting license in order to apply in my opinion. I mean come on... Whats up with this KDFWR? If this is true who in their right mind from neighboring states would not apply every single year? Maybe im being selfish here but i dont think indiana,tennessee,ohio or any other state in the us should have the same opportunity at drawing a tag as a resident who pays for licensing and tags every single year and who continually foot the bill for most of Kentuckys wildlife management and restoration. Your thoughts??:confused:

[trust me]

I hadn't really thought of it. If an OOS hunter gets drawn, he then has to buy the elk permit and an OOS license. If they had to purchase the OOS license prior to buying the tag, it would increase the income from that hunter, but would discourage others from buying anything at all.

[GSP]

Not quite so. A resident does not have to buy a license either before buying a elk lotto tag.
Out of state is held to 10% max (usually) on participants drawn

[Suthrn*]

Not quite so. A resident does not have to buy a license either before buying a elk lotto tag.
Out of state is held to 10% max (usually) on participants drawn
Thanks for the input on that GSP. Guess thats somewhat fair. Not saying i dont want out of state hunters in Kentucky... I respect them as much as i do Kentucky hunters. Just thought it made no sense for us to be pushing the weight for them while theyre states seem to have enormous out of state rates. I know my deer tags in Georgia run me nearly 300 per season including primitive weapons and my big game tag. Our state is probably one of the most reasonable for out of state hunters. Wish others would be so giving, but when a resident has to draw for a lottery i just didnt think it was fair for a nr to have the same chance. 10% sounds a lot better to me than equal. Have to clarify with my employer on this in the morning. Just caught the usually part... What does "usually" mean?

[GSP]

The non residents are held to 10% governed by KAR.

One year there was a SNAFU and they let a guy in that pushed it over 10%.

[naturalelite]

At 10 bucks I think everyone and their mother will be putting in for the tags. If you push it to having to by NR license before hand I would think your only going to target the guys that are already coming here to hunt so the loss of revenues could be several thousand dollars.
Even residents that don't normally hunt are putting in for this. Just to have the chance of getting the GOLDEN TAG. Its probably the hardest draw in the nation right now. I don't have any facts to back this up just my opinion. You can get in any area of colorado with 10 years of applying you can't say the same about this one.

[4onaside]

The non residents are held to 10% governed by KAR.

One year there was a SNAFU and they let a guy in that pushed it over 10%.
However, this year the "10%" of 200 tags was 18(the number of N.R.tags issued). Maybe they were compensating for the over 10% year.lol

[Suthrn*]

Quote You can get in any area of colorado with 10 years of applying you can't say the same about this one.
__________________


Thats kinda what im sayin. For 10 bucks a state ill put in to all of em with an elk population. Bound to get drawn by at least one!

[4onaside]

Was talkin with my boss today about drawing the elk tags and we were discussing the elk tag reqs a bit. Didnt know this myself but i was told that a nonresident can apply for an elk tag without even having bought a state license.. If thats true its got to be the biggest load of it ive ever heard of. They should at least make it mandatory to have a hunting license in order to apply in my opinion. I mean come on... Whats up with this KDFWR? If this is true who in their right mind from neighboring states would not apply every single year? Maybe im being selfish here but i dont think indiana,tennessee,ohio or any other state in the us should have the same opportunity at drawing a tag as a resident who pays for licensing and tags every single year and who continually foot the bill for most of Kentuckys wildlife management and restoration. Your thoughts??:confused:
Considering, the fact that we are limited to 10% of the elk permits(no problem), and a resident can hunt elk for $40 which cost a non-resident $415(also no problem with me), it looks to be pretty fair, doesn't it? And, as there were 26,000 applicants this past season at $10 a pop, I would think that the last thing that the Game and Fish people would think about doing is reducing that number and amount of income by requiring a non-resident to buy a license on the very slim chance that they would get to hunt in kentucky, unlike resident hunters who are going to hunt something anyway in the state, and therefore would routinely by a license even disregarding elk hunting.

[Suthrn*]

Considering, the fact that we are limited to 10% of the elk permits(no problem), and a resident can hunt elk for $40 which cost a non-resident $415(also no problem with me), it looks to be pretty fair, doesn't it? And, as there were 26,000 applicants this past season at $10 a pop, I would think that the last thing that the Game and Fish people would think about doing is reducing that number and amount of income by requiring a non-resident to buy a license on the very slim chance that they would get to hunt in kentucky, unlike resident hunters who are going to hunt something anyway in the state, and therefore would routinely by a license even disregarding elk hunting.

A non resident license is 415?? Im severely undereducated i guess. Thought they were actually below 200. May be diff for elk im not sure thats why i posted it as im not angry..... i very well may be misinformed.

[Suthrn*]

From what i currently see on KDFWR it looks like it would cost a grand total of 42.50 for an elk hunt if drawn.. am i missing something here? Again not angry or anything like that but i very well may be misinformed.
http://fw.ky.gov/licensefees.asp?lid=621&NavPath=C128C199C295

Edit: (Thats a 5 day NR licence plus elk draw.)

[raven_over_easy]

From what i currently see on KDFWR it looks like it would cost a grand total of 42.50 for an elk hunt if drawn.. am i missing something here? Again not angry or anything like that but i very well may be misinformed.
http://fw.ky.gov/licensefees.asp?lid=621&NavPath=C128C199C295

Edit: (Thats a 5 day NR license plus elk draw.)

5 day NR is not valid for Elk, Deer and Turkey hunting in KY. The 5 Day NR License is valid for small game hunting only. NR Big Game hunters must purchase the full season NR License to hunt elk, deer or turkey in Kentucky.

[Luckybuck]

When you think about how many out of state hunters actually apply for those limited tags, I would imagine it generates a tremendous amount of revenue. One thing that still gets me is in two consecutive years guys from the same town, same last name, and same state were drawn on an OSS permit for elk. Something just doesn't add up there.

[ng270]

Suthern:

Kentucky is actually set up pretty similar to PA in the elk draw department, except ours (PA's) is probably even less "fair" to residents. We have a smaller herd than Ky, so only about 40 tags per year are available, and about 10 of those are bull tags. There is not a cap on how many nonresidents can draw here (last year nonresidents filled five of the forty tags). We do have a preference point system that gives you more chances in the draw (I have four points, so this year my name goes in the hat five times), but with 20,000 applicants, most of whom also have four points, the odds of winning are only slightly better than the odds of winning the powerball. (PA's hunt has much poorer odds than KY's, and KY's odds are improving while PA's are pretty stagnant since tag numbers here are consistently low.)

You (nonresidents) are welcome to apply for $10, without buying a hunting license (just like in Ky). If you draw, you will need to buy a nonresident hunting license ($101) plus a nonresident elk permit ($250), so your total cost will be less than my NR cost would be in Ky. You can not choose to only apply for a bull license. Success rate is very high (35 of 40 hunters tagged out last year during the six day hunt), and we have had huge bulls since the hunts began in 2001.

Anyone on here who wants to apply, give it a shot: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=471&q=161500
If you snoop around the elk section of the PA web site, you'll see that we kill some gorgeous bulls every year.

If you draw, let me know. I'll help out however I can. I live about 70 miles from the center of the elk area, and I of course haven't been drawn yet, but there is lots of public land, and some of the landowners will let you hunt. There are also locals who guide, if you want to go that route.

[ng270]

From the Ky web site:

Non-residents that are drawn will be required to pay a $300 fee and have an annual Kentucky nonresident hunting license prior to the hunt.

[ng270]

You can get in any area of colorado with 10 years of applying you can't say the same about this one.

You might want to look at this link. It is a table of the preference points required to draw each elk unit in the state of Colorado. There are many units you can draw with less than ten points, but the best ones take 15, 16, or more years.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/6BC03F21-6EF5-4F9C-AFF0-B8F6444BBD7B/0/Elk_PP06.pdf

The thing about preference points is that if you start applying now for a unit that takes 15 points to draw, by the time you have 15 points, that same unit will probably take 30 or more points to draw, just because more and more people apply every year. Trust me; I started applying in Utah seven years ago and most of the premium units could be drawn with 6 or 7 points. Now that I have six points, nearly all of the premium units require 10, 12, or even more points to guarantee drawing out.

There are several units in Utah where you can start applying now, but if you're over 45 years old, there's a slim chance you will ever have enough points to guarantee that you get to hunt there before you die at 75 - 80. 1 in 100 odds are actually not too bad for a hunt like Ky's with the trophy potential you now have (compared to the 'trophy' areas in the West).

But, enough of my 'soap box'. In case you can't tell, I just love to plan/research elk hunts! Now if I could ever draw a good tag :rolleyes:. . .

[naturalelite]

You might want to look at this link. It is a table of the preference points required to draw each elk unit in the state of Colorado. There are many units you can draw with less than ten points, but the best ones take 15, 16, or more years.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/6BC03F21-6EF5-4F9C-AFF0-B8F6444BBD7B/0/Elk_PP06.pdf

The thing about preference points is that if you start applying now for a unit that takes 15 points to draw, by the time you have 15 points, that same unit will probably take 30 or more points to draw, just because more and more people apply every year. Trust me; I started applying in Utah seven years ago and most of the premium units could be drawn with 6 or 7 points. Now that I have six points, nearly all of the premium units require 10, 12, or even more points to guarantee drawing out.

There are several units in Utah where you can start applying now, but if you're over 45 years old, there's a slim chance you will ever have enough points to guarantee that you get to hunt there before you die at 75 - 80. 1 in 100 odds are actually not too bad for a hunt like Ky's with the trophy potential you now have (compared to the 'trophy' areas in the West).

But, enough of my 'soap box'. In case you can't tell, I just love to plan/research elk hunts! Now if I could ever draw a good tag :rolleyes:. . .
I got two words for you. BOW HUNT Or you can also spend the money to get with an outfitter that already has tags. Its still easier than getting drawed for kentucky.

[ng270]

I got two words for you. BOW HUNT Or you can also spend the money to get with an outfitter that already has tags. Its still easier than getting drawed for kentucky.

True, but then we're comparing apples to oranges, since Ky's hunts are "any weapon". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ky doesn't offer an archery-only tag.

And if money is no object, aren't there are a couple of KY tags for sale too?

All things considered, Ky's DRAW hunt odds are as good as any premium western units DRAW hunt odds. And with Ky's trophy potential, I would argue that the Ky hunt is a premium hunt.

But, it's like any other drawing or lottery; why argue too adamantly to get others to apply when more applicants means lower odds for me, right? :D:D

[4onaside]

A non resident license is 415?? Im severely undereducated i guess. Thought they were actually below 200. May be diff for elk im not sure thats why i posted it as im not angry..... i very well may be misinformed.
The N.R. big game license was $115 in 2006 and I understand may be more in 2007. You had to have that if you were successful in the draw. Then you had to buy an elk tag, which for non-residents cost $300. I'm certainly not complaining as I had that much fun in your state! This is just for your info. My attitude has always been that nobody is twisting my arm to go hunt in Kentucky or Colorado or wherever. If I don't like the deal, I can just not apply, and hunt our volunteer state turkeys and deer(actually don't sound like such bad duty does it!):)

[Suthrn*]

Thks to all who replied. Think more than anything i am misinformed and learned a few things that i hadnt known as well. Of course you can imagine how ridiculous it sounded to hear that for just 10 bucks anyone can draw and go elk hunting in kentucky... Obviously its not as simple as i was told and thought.

[tex]

Glad to see ya NG270. Where in Utah do you put in?. By the way, you better start applying in WY as it may get "point locked" there too. They just started the new system, so there is a chance now to get in early. Heres a good link..
www.huntodds.com Check out some of the late season rifle hunt odds...Whew!! By the way, I think Nevada keeps your money on draw hunts, no refund, but I may be wrong. Someone told me that.

[ng270]

Hey, Tex. My cuz and I have been mostly buying points only to date, because he's been putting off spending the $$ to go, per the slim chance we'd have actually drawn in the past. This year he's ready to apply for a tag. We haven't applied yet (have to this week!), but will probably put in for Wasatch. He is set on a rifle hunt, so we're still a looong way from being in the max points group for much of anything.

I've been putting in for deserts in Utah for three years, and was just going to start in WY last year for BH, but then they started the $100 per point deal, and I decided to punt on WY. My wife has a low tolerance for high application fees, and I'm not into keeping secrets from her, so I'll keep applying in UT, and in the east. Besides, I like to go DIY, and WY has always griped me a bit with their wilderness areas where nonres have to have a guide to hunt, even though it's public land. I know that non-wilderness public land there is not that way, but I guess it's the whole principle of the thing that gets me.

That huntodds site is awesome, isn't it?

Sounds like you are playing the game in UT, too?? If you aren't already putting in for PA elk, I'd consider it if I were you. Not many bull tags, but huge bulls available.

[C.L.Button]

WAAAY too much drama,,, That's why I pay $500 for my over the counter Bull Elk tag and hunt in SW Colorado every year instead of setting around wondering IF. A couple of years they let you buy a Cow tag for $250 in addition to the Bull tag. I have filled my tags out every year. I'm not a horn hunter but I have taken a couple nice 6x6's in those 12 yrs of hunting. I just like to eat Elk meat and the Colorado tag seemed the best way to go to me. The scenery ain't bad either. :D

[ng270]

CL, if I could go every year, I'd probably do what you're doing. Unfortunately, I can't go very often, so I figure I may as well at least try to land a 'premo' tag for the few times I get to go. Trophies are nice, but the main reason I apply for the LE hunts is the quality of the hunt, i.e., fewer hunters and abundance of game.

[C.L.Button]

I understand completely and I don't blame you for trying. That area yeilds some big bulls. I have been well blessed in my Elk hunting and it is hard for me to give up a good thing. It is my vacation time every year and those mtns are in my blood. My wife says she is a "Rockies Widow". Best of luck to you ng270. :D

[4onaside]

I understand completely and I don't blame you for trying. That area yeilds some big bulls. I have been well blessed in my Elk hunting and it is hard for me to give up a good thing. It is my vacation time every year and those mtns are in my blood. My wife says she is a "Rockies Widow". Best of luck to you ng270. :D
Hey Bud, how far "SW" do you go? We usually stop in Southfork.

[C.L.Button]

IF you are asking me ? I hunt about 35 miles N of Delores on the edge of the Groundhog lake area. That is about 70 miles NNE from 4 corners area.

[4onaside]

IF you are asking me ? I hunt about 35 miles N of Delores on the edge of the Groundhog lake area. That is about 70 miles NNE from 4 corners area.
Yeah, I was asking you. It got attached to the wrong post. But you figured it out. That is southwest big time! I once spent the night in Cortez, but have never hunted in that area. I was living in Memphis at the time, and remember the mileage. We came back down to 40 at Gallup. 1358 miles, or two days. A long drive from Ky/Tn

[C.L.Button]

Yeah, I was asking you. It got attached to the wrong post. But you figured it out. That is southwest big time! I once spent the night in Cortez, but have never hunted in that area. I was living in Memphis at the time, and remember the mileage. We came back down to 40 at Gallup. 1358 miles, or two days. A long drive from Ky/Tn

Yep, I leave Louisville about 5pm on a Tuesday and eat dinner in Alamosa on Wednesday 24hrs later. I catch a BIG beer and great dinner at my buddies place(San Luis Valley Brewery) in Alamosa then hit the bed. The next day I hit Cortez till I go up to the ranch on Friday. Some yrs depending on the weather I go out earlier to fish Groundhog L. for Trout. I like the area but it is a LONG haul from here.
It's funny how it happened but my 2006 Bull came from just outside Alamosa. I got caught in a blizzard (18inches)at Groundhog and bailed out in the middle of the season. They don't plow those mtn roads after Oct. 1st. I also didn't want to get caught on the W side of Wolf Creek pass that late in the year. The Bull came from private land just off the Rio Grande Nat. Forest. Great area's both of them with great people.

Good luck with your hunt. :D

[4onaside]

Yep, I leave Louisville about 5pm on a Tuesday and eat dinner in Alamosa on Wednesday 24hrs later. I catch a BIG beer and great dinner at my buddies place(San Luis Valley Brewery) in Alamosa then hit the bed. The next day I hit Cortez till I go up to the ranch on Friday. Some yrs depending on the weather I go out earlier to fish Groundhog L. for Trout. I like the area but it is a LONG haul from here.
It's funny how it happened but my 2006 Bull came from just outside Alamosa. I got caught in a blizzard (18inches)at Groundhog and bailed out in the middle of the season. They don't plow those mtn roads after Oct. 1st. I also didn't want to get caught on the W side of Wolf Creek pass that late in the year. The Bull came from private land just off the Rio Grande Nat. Forest. Great area's both of them with great people.

Good luck with your hunt. :D
You are talking about the area with which I am totally familiar, that is, on the East side of Wolf Creek Pass. We have always hunted in 79 and in 76 when we can draw, which is getting harder and harder(76). Know what you mean about the snow and passes. I get antsy even about LaVeta pass and for that matter Raton Pass on I-25 when the snows fly. We hunt Rio Grande National Forest. Were you in Unit 79 when you killed your bull? if you were, you were one of the blessed few. We have killed a couple of bulls in 79, but we really don't think much of it as a good unit. Apparently most others don't either, as you can always draw a bull tag without any trouble. I am impressed that you gave up your primary destination, and killed a bull, apparently, in just kind of a random manner. I am interested in the details of your 2006 hunt, and, if you would care to converse with me, you can PM me, rather than bore all of these good people with something that they perhaps care nothing about.

[C.L.Button]

It was the first and only time I have ever hunted there. Only reason I did was cause I wasn't driving my Jeep. I will PM you about the rest. THANKS. :D

[massive horns]

It sure costs me me a whole lot more to apply to Arizona each year for elk..

By the way, how much has the bull tag been auctioned off for the last few years during the Elk Benefit Banquet?..

[raven_over_easy]

I dont know about the RMEF Conservation Permit. But the Hunters for the Hungry - Ebay Permit went for a little more than 10 Grand.

[Pinwheel8]

The Ataya bull tag went for $15,500 last year at the RMEF banquet in London.

[elkguy]

Over the past 4 years, we have gotten anywhere from $14,000 to $37,000 for a KY bull tag at our national convention at auction. We have raffled 2 or 3 commission tags and an Ataya tag over the past couple of years. We sell raffle tickets for $25 apc or 6 for $25. The winner gets a tag, a nice rifle and a guided hunt.

If anybody wants to get in on the raffle, shoot me an e-mail at davidrmef@alltel.net. We'll mail you tickets. All proceeds go to support habitat improvement in southeastern KY. I've already bought $50,000 worth of seed this year.

[buckfever]

Southern - For all intents and purposes, this 10% business is nothing more than a money grap. As GSP points out, this is an easy way for the Dept to increase their revenues without posing too much of an additional burden on resident sporstmen.

Even if 100,000 NR's entered the raffle, your chances of winning (assuming you're a KY resident) aren't significantly affected, b/c those 100,000 will always be limited to 10% of the total tags.

That being said, I think that your suggestion requiring a license b/4 applying for the elk lottery is, in fact, the much better method if the overall purpose was to assist the resident sportsmen in getting the tags. This is true, b/c if NR's were forced to buy a license before applying, the only folks that would apply would be the ones, as you pointed out, that were already planning to hunt in KY. There would be significantly fewer NR applicants. The end result of this would be that we'd end up with more resident Kentuckians being drawn, and it would probably be rare that KY ever hit the 10% cap on NR tags.

As it stands now, I bet there are so many NR applicants that we should just expect that 10% of all elk tags will end up going to NR's each and every year.

They just don't want to call a spade a spade, and tell the resident public that 10% of the elk tags are slated for NRs. IMO, they should set aside 10% of the tags for NR's, but charge NR's $25 to apply for the NR elk lottery. I bet that they'd be able to generate a lot more money, but, then again, the Dept would have to deal with all the bitching and moaning from residents.

[tex]

Yeah, $25 is about what the market would bear, before people would quit applying. On another note, you can spend 500, and hunt the largest elk herd in the world, over the counter. I think I may work some more overtime!! I would like to hunt the Gila, but haven't been drawn there yet, maybe next year. Saw monster bulls there on a deer hunt.

[C.L.Button]

Southern - For all intents and purposes, this 10% business is nothing more than a money grap. As GSP points out, this is an easy way for the Dept to increase their revenues without posing too much of an additional burden on resident sporstmen.

Even if 100,000 NR's entered the raffle, your chances of winning (assuming you're a KY resident) aren't significantly affected, b/c those 100,000 will always be limited to 10% of the total tags.

That being said, I think that your suggestion requiring a license b/4 applying for the elk lottery is, in fact, the much better method if the overall purpose was to assist the resident sportsmen in getting the tags. This is true, b/c if NR's were forced to buy a license before applying, the only folks that would apply would be the ones, as you pointed out, that were already planning to hunt in KY. There would be significantly fewer NR applicants. The end result of this would be that we'd end up with more resident Kentuckians being drawn, and it would probably be rare that KY ever hit the 10% cap on NR tags.

As it stands now, I bet there are so many NR applicants that we should just expect that 10% of all elk tags will end up going to NR's each and every year.

They just don't want to call a spade a spade, and tell the resident public that 10% of the elk tags are slated for NRs. IMO, they should set aside 10% of the tags for NR's, but charge NR's $25 to apply for the NR elk lottery. I bet that they'd be able to generate a lot more money, but, then again, the Dept would have to deal with all the bitching and moaning from residents.

So you would have outta state hunters pay for a license BEFORE they are drawn ? And Resident hunters would not ? Somebody clarify this for me. :confused:

[Multidigits]

The only way that NR's should be required to buy a license BEFORE they apply is if it's completely refundable if they are not selected........just as other states do with their license/tag drawings. I doubt witha small number of permits available if this would be smart business to set that system up here in KY. Nothing really wrong with the drawing as it is.......it's not broke.

[C.L.Button]

The only way that NR's should be required to buy a license BEFORE they apply is if it's completely refundable if they are not selected........just as other states do with their license/tag drawings. I doubt witha small number of permits available if this would be smart business to set that system up here in KY. Nothing really wrong with the drawing as it is.......it's not broke.

THANKS Multi. ;)

[ptbrauch]

If $10 were enough of a draw that enough NR's bought a chance in the elk lottery to raise enough money for the dept to keep them from raising the price of my license for several years, I'm all for it. Heck, I'd even be willing to give the NR's 15% of the draw. I'm going to buy a license every year, but the same NR's aren't going to get drawn every year.