Darfur thoughts?

[grouser68]

http://www.genocideintervention.net/educate/darfurinfo/


Since February 2003, the Sudanese government in Khartoum and the government-sponsored Janjaweed militia have used rape, displacement, organized starvation and mass murder to kill more than 400,000 and displace 2.5 million. Violence, disease and displacement continue to kill thousands of innocent Darfurians every month.
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I dunno, it's bad over there.IMHO we don't need to be all over the world playing policemen, on the other hand,we have intervened for alot less.Mixed feelings on this one, really sad to hear about all those people dying, women being raped, kids being murdered. Just really sad.

[keith meador]

i bet if they had oil over there for 12 bucks a barrel we would be over there sorting something out......good bad or indifferent......

[AteUp]

i bet if they had oil over there for 12 bucks a barrel we would be over there sorting something out......good bad or indifferent......


Nah, if they said we shouldn't have intervened in Iraq then I guess we shouldn't intervene there either. Wouldn't be right.

[grouser68]

Nah, if they said we shouldn't have intervened in Iraq then I guess we shouldn't intervene there either. Wouldn't be right.

Problem is, WE DID intervene in Iraq, in a huge way!

[AteUp]

I know you're fishing. You're implying that we should intervene in Darfur if Bush had noble motives for Iraq. The other side says we learned our lesson and can't save the world so stay the heck out of Darfur. No end to this argument.

[Hammer]

nothing new over in Darfur. This has been going on for years now, and I don't know the answer. Muslims against non-muslims. Do a search for janjaweed and see what you get.

[eddiejohn4]

This was a problem taken on by the UN. I guess we can tell what the UN is good for. We intervined in Iraq after 9/11 this has nothing to do with Darfur. But as you can tell its is muslim against non muslim sound familar?

[trust me]

The weapon of choice over there has been the machete so far. They hack a couple up out in open view and the rest fall right in line and march out of town. I guess the UN hasn't decided that machetes are weapons of mass destruction yet.

It may be politically incorrect to say this, but Africa is hopeless. If you intervene in Africa, you never get to leave because there is no hope of a gov't to ever be able to stand in your place. At least in more developed areas you can prop up a democracy that might last a while.

[elkguy]

Problem is, WE DID intervene in Iraq, in a huge way!

2 points.

1. Right or wrong, Iraq was about a clear and present danger to the United States. WMDs, the world's oil supplies, etc etc. Sudan presently presents none of these.

2. But then with that said, do you really believe that we are not there already? The world knows that Somalia could turn into another base camp for islamofascists terrorists. If we don't have CIA and Special Ops teams there now, I would be amazed. Also, do you think the Ethiopians invaded Somalia without our permission and assistance?

[grouser68]

I know you're fishing. You're implying that we should intervene in Darfur if Bush had noble motives for Iraq. The other side says we learned our lesson and can't save the world so stay the heck out of Darfur. No end to this argument.


Fishing?Implying?Arguement?I think not AteUp! You brought up Iraq. I was thinking Somalia, Bosnia, Rwanda.Iraq had nothing to do with organized starvation, rape,genocide.Iraq was WMD's if I recall.Darfur is a totally different situation than any reason we went to Iraq,not even in the same ballpark.I am sure I did'nt imply a comparison between the two.

Back on topic. We did nothing in Rwanda,just let it go.Somalia,we tried.Bosnia, we tried and it worked!Bosnia is recent history, looks like if we wanted, we could use the same tactics used there and stop the genocide.Take 20 jets, 20 tanks, and 2,000 troops and end it in a week! Get the 3 leaders together in a Dayton Accord type deal, and leave the country in a month before our enemy's start pouring in.

All those wars/conflicts/genocide over there are religion based.In Bosnia it was the big three, Catholics/Christians/Muslims. We struck at a time when the Christians were winning, so essentially we saved the Muslims from the Christians and they hated us for that.Many Christians flew me the bird, what else could they do......I had the gun! :D

[Buford]

What if it was about oil? so what? The welfare of our entire population is dependent on cheap and available oil. It's the most efficient and available fuel source on the planet. It powers every sector of the economy we rely on for our standard of living...Corn? Dont kid yourself.
I cant reconcile that alot of the same people who thought the sky would fall if oil hit $100 a barrel are the same ones that have been screaming no blood for oil for years. Dont forget Oil was a leading contributor to WW2. You know what? Oil may be worth fighting for.

[Multidigits]

What's the democratic controlled congress going to do about this problem??

[Bray]

What's the democratic controlled congress going to do about this problem??

They are going to convien a commitiee to decide the commitee who will chair the counsel to debate the issue of conviening a commitee to discuss the posibility to summon a council to debate whether or not the first commitee was effective and then blame Bush. Standard procedure.

[elkguy]

What's the democratic controlled congress going to do about this problem??

1. Ask John Kerry to come up with a plan.
2. Send Jimmy Carter to "get tough".
3. Pass out condoms and cucumbers.
4. Push for more abortions in Darfur.
5. Send the Sierra Club to save their environment.
6. Send Jessie Jackson to hold a prayer breakfast.
7. Ask the Islamofascists to please be nice because we are really nice people.
8. Cut our military strength in half to show the world that we are serious about peace.
9. Blame it on Republicans.
10. Get Michael Moore and the Dixie Chicks to film a documentary.
11. Push for more abortions in the U.S.
12. Pass a law repealing the Bush tax cuts.
13. Bomb France into the stone age.
14. Open the border with Mexico.
15. Send more condoms.
16. Legalize marijuana.
17. Have a bongo drum circle play during all sessions of Congress.
18. Send Sarah Brady over to Sudan to take away their guns.
19. Drop leaflets over Sudan with pictures of Hillary packing her bags to come over there and fix their country.
20. Blame everything on Bush.
21. Smoke a doobie.
22. Make all Americans carry a mystic crystal, think good thoughts and give off good vibes.
23. Outlaw all religions in the US so nobody is offended.
24. Teach all American kids that they should speak the language spoken in Sudan. What is spoken there?
25. Cut all ties with England.
26. Blame it on Israel.
27. Send Bill Clinton over there to co-host an international symposium with Hugo Chavez and Cindy Sheehan.

And the last 3 things the Democrats will do;

1. Pass sweeping leagislation to fund a reunification of Gondwanaland.
2. Pass sweeping legislation to fund a reunification of Pangea.
I'll let somebody else explain these 2 to everybody that went to public schools in Louisville.

3. Pass sweeping legislation to fund an effort to stop continental drift.


That's all for now.

[grouser68]

This has turned into yet another political bashing thread. The republicans this, democrats that!

Lets refocus! Should the U.S. or U.N. intervene?We tout ourselves as a humanitarian nation, should we step in and stop the murder, rape, and large scale violence there,irregardless of oil, or diamonds, or whatever else that country has?

I have'nt been able to watch much news lately, has our govt. whether rep. or dem. even brought up this subject? Are there any plans, any talk of this matter withen our govt.?

[elkguy]

This has turned into yet another political bashing thread. The republicans this, democrats that!

Lets refocus! Should the U.S. or U.N. intervene?We tout ourselves as a humanitarian nation, should we step in and stop the murder, rape, and large scale violence there,irregardless of oil, or diamonds, or whatever else that country has?

I have'nt been able to watch much news lately, has our govt. whether rep. or dem. even brought up this subject? Are there any plans, any talk of this matter withen our govt.?

Hey man,

It would be just as easy to come up with a list of goofy things for Republicans based on streotypes. I just like doing it for democrats better.

I have not heard anybody from the Dems or the GOP say that we should get heavily involved in Sudan. I don't think anybody has the will to go for it there. It would probably turn into another front in the war against Islamofascists. No doubth that Islamists from all over would go there also to kill the Big Satan. I would guess that we have CIA and special ops there as well already also.

Besides the terrible things that are happening there that we see on TV, I don't know much about the geopolitical realities that we have there. I'd like to see a real report on current, perceived and potential national interests there.

An insertion of American troops would probably trigger a geurilla war between us and the "bad guys". As a nation, we don't have the will to do that in a manner that we could win it right now. We don't even have the will to win in Iraq.

[Foam Steak]

It may be politically incorrect to say this, but Africa is hopeless. If you intervene in Africa, you never get to leave because there is no hope of a gov't to ever be able to stand in your place. At least in more developed areas you can prop up a democracy that might last a while.

Trust Me, I agree whole heartedly.

Now here is a quote from Grouser: "We did nothing in Rwanda,just let it go.Somalia,we tried.Bosnia, we tried and it worked!Bosnia is recent history, looks like if we wanted, we could use the same tactics used there and stop the genocide.Take 20 jets, 20 tanks, and 2,000 troops and end it in a week! Get the 3 leaders together in a Dayton Accord type deal, and leave the country in a month before our enemy's start pouring in."

Grouser68, Do you really think we could use the same tactics in Darfur as in Bosnia? I think there are multiple strikes against that assertion. Culture, Climate, Drought, Famine and the fact that the Sudan is a country surrounded by people who are not exactly friendly to the USA or Christians. Boznia was just a hop and a skip away from Austria and Italy. I think the biggest problem is Famine. Whenever people are hungry there will be fighting and unrest regardless of what we do. Unless what we do is send in millions of dollars worth of food and supplies. Then what? How long can you do that before you leave? How long can you support an artificially high population before you let it adjust. Like Trust Me said "you NEVER get to leave"

I agree with your earlier statement that this is sad. It is sad and disgusting. And I still remember what went on in Rwanda. I also remember how the general consensus among the civilized world after it happened was "this was bad and we should never let it happen again". Apparently that was just lip service because we are letting it happen again. The tough question is what do we do now? I vote to let the United Nations handle it. Which means it will not get handled. Just like Rwanda.

[Wildcat]

Back on topic. We did nothing in Rwanda,just let it go.Somalia,we tried.Bosnia, we tried and it worked!Bosnia is recent history, looks like if we wanted, we could use the same tactics used there and stop the genocide.Take 20 jets, 20 tanks, and 2,000 troops and end it in a week! Get the 3 leaders together in a Dayton Accord type deal, and leave the country in a month before our enemy's start pouring in.



That was NATO that made Bosnia work. The US was forced to join it. If you remember the news from that year the Europen members of NATO held meetings on the issue for months and the US would not attend. NATO voted to go in and because the US was a member we had to go help. Guess who paid the majorty of the bills? Now turn it around, the US gets attacked and NATO helps a little.

The UN is a joke as everybody in the world knows. Why do you think Hezbollah took all those missiles and other arms into Lebanon right pass the UN peacekeepers? They KNEW the UN was nothing and would do nothing. They have not done anything since Korea in the 1950's.

What do you think the UN would do? Pass 17 more resolutions, then what????

[Multidigits]

This has turned into yet another political bashing thread. The republicans this, democrats that!

Lets refocus! Should the U.S. or U.N. intervene?We tout ourselves as a humanitarian nation, should we step in and stop the murder, rape, and large scale violence there,irregardless of oil, or diamonds, or whatever else that country has?

I have'nt been able to watch much news lately, has our govt. whether rep. or dem. even brought up this subject? Are there any plans, any talk of this matter withen our govt.?


What's the democratic controlled Congress's plan of action???

[grouser68]

Hey man,

It would be just as easy to come up with a list of goofy things for Republicans based on streotypes. I just like doing it for democrats better.

I have not heard anybody from the Dems or the GOP say that we should get heavily involved in Sudan. I don't think anybody has the will to go for it there. It would probably turn into another front in the war against Islamofascists. No doubth that Islamists from all over would go there also to kill the Big Satan. I would guess that we have CIA and special ops there as well already also.

Besides the terrible things that are happening there that we see on TV, I don't know much about the geopolitical realities that we have there. I'd like to see a real report on current, perceived and potential national interests there.

An insertion of American troops would probably trigger a geurilla war between us and the "bad guys". As a nation, we don't have the will to do that in a manner that we could win it right now. We don't even have the will to win in Iraq.

I agree, it probably would turn into another terrorist front if we were there long enough.Terrorists would probably stream in to kill Americans.I also sadly agree that we probably don't have the will to go there. It's just a sad situation all the crap going on over there and the bulk of it against innocents.

On a totally different note, while in the Marines in the early 80's we trained with the Ethiopians and the Somolians .I have no idea who was in power back then. All I really remember about it was, they were all really tall and thin, and scared to death of U.S.Marines.They were always smiling at us and waving nervously.Knowing full well that we were the finest fighting force in the world, we saw them as a rag-tag crew, and had no respect for them as a fighting force.They pulled some really goofy acts.I suppose trying to goldbrick a crew of them took refuge behind a sandune, not knowing we were about to use that dune as a live grenade target.We threw greneades at that dune for hours, they were really lucky no one had the arm to chuck one over! They came out at the end of the day shaking, smiling, and waving!It was funny, but could have turned out bad!

[grouser68]

What's the democratic controlled Congress's plan of action???

I dunno Multi! Is the Democratically controlled Congress in control yet? I was under the assumption the Dem's did'nt take control until sometime in Jan.?Since you persist with this line of political questioning.....What has the republican controlled congress done about it since the start of it in 2003?

[elkguy]

Grouser68,

Thank you for your service to our country. You are a hero in my book.

You just have some confusion regarding politics.:D

My son (2nd Recon BN) tells me stories that his Recon Marine buddies tell him about their recent times in the horn of Africa. They call them skinnies.

Winston Churchill said, "If you are 20 years old and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are 40 years old and still a liberal, you have no brain".

Thanks again for your service.

[Multidigits]

I dunno Multi! Is the Democratically controlled Congress in control yet? I was under the assumption the Dem's did'nt take control until sometime in Jan.?Since you persist with this line of political questioning.....What has the republican controlled congress done about it since the start of it in 2003?


We'll wait. I'll bet it'll be front page news any day now. Maybe Edwards has a plan, see where he threw hsi hat into the ring.

[grouser68]

Multi, what is YOUR opinion?Not your political observations, but your OWN opinion?.What should we do?

Foam, Wildcat, good posts! Your right, the U.N is worthless, why do people continue to testify before them. I like George Clooney cause he's a Ky. boy, but he is spinning his wheels with that group.I think he realizes that, just doing it to get the word out.

[KYHUNTER14]

As bad as it sounds, it is all political.

I don't think G.W. will be interested in intervening after all the hell he has taken over Iraq. On the other hand, how can the DEMs give him a hard time over this when they have been the ones giving him the hell.

Once the DEMS control congress next year I would suspect much wont get done until a new president is elected. Too much gridlock.

The bottom line is, IF Dems are the ones responsible for helping out in Darfur, the Republicans will pick it apart and criticize every move made. The same will happen if Repubs are the ones who decide to intervene. Parties just doing what the have to do to make their side look good and the other side look bad.

[elkguy]

We'll wait. I'll bet it'll be front page news any day now. Maybe Edwards has a plan, see where he threw hsi hat into the ring.

That's it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edwards will just file a class action lawsuit against obstetricians that deliver Janjaweed babies, or babies that grow up to be bad people!

[grouser68]

Grouser68,

Thank you for your service to our country. You are a hero in my book.

You just have some confusion regarding politics.:D

My son (2nd Recon BN) tells me stories that his Recon Marine buddies tell him about their recent times in the horn of Africa. They call them skinnies.

Winston Churchill said, "If you are 20 years old and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are 40 years old and still a liberal, you have no brain".

Thanks again for your service.

No problem elkguy, I can take a joke.:)

God Bless you and your son! While the same blood does'nt flow throw our veins,and we have never met, your son IS my brother! Tell my brother he is in my prayers in my household everyday!

[grouser68]

As bad as it sounds, it is all political.

I don't think G.W. will be interested in intervening after all the hell he has taken over Iraq. On the other hand, how can the DEMs give him a hard time over this when they have been the ones giving him the hell.

Once the DEMS control congress next year I would suspect much wont get done until a new president is elected. Too much gridlock.

The bottom line is, IF Dems are the ones responsible for helping out in Darfur, the Republicans will pick it apart and criticize every move made. The same will happen if Repubs are the ones who decide to intervene. Parties just doing what the have to do to make their side look good and the other side look bad.

Very smart post! Every word true.Could'nt have said it better than that! But still really sad that at the end of the day genocide is occuring and politics either have our hands tied, or push us into a situation.

[Multidigits]

Multi, what is YOUR opinion?Not your political observations, but your OWN opinion?.What should we do?



Wait some more for the dems to get something going on this. Then we'll second guess them when it turns to carp. Keep us posted on it.

[grouser68]

Wait some more for the dems to get something going on this. Then we'll second guess them when it turns to carp. Keep us posted on it.

So your official opinion is "wait"? Wait and let the next guy wade in politically?

As an American watching and reading the news on a daily basis, seeing the genocide, you bury your head in the sand and wait until another political party takes control and see what they do?Interesting! Good post!

[Multidigits]

So your official opinion is "wait"? Wait and let the next guy wade in politically?

As an American watching and reading the news on a daily basis, seeing the genocide, you bury your head in the sand and wait until another political party takes control and see what they do?Interesting! Good post!


No, I said wait for the Dems to take action, not the next guy. The next guy might be Hillary and I'm sure she'll jump right in there and make things better for those people.

[grouser68]

No, I said wait for the Dems to take action, not the next guy. The next guy might be Hillary and I'm sure she'll jump right in there and make things better for those people.

You are all over the place politically Multi! First on the control of Congress next month, then speculate on what a new Prez might do in two years!

In your heart, what is your opinion on what you think should happen over there? Can you forget the political bashing long enough to think that question through please?

Lord forbid the genocide, and suffering lasts another 2 years!

We have shown in the past that we can get a coalition together for a good cause. Should we try that?

[kevhunter]

I think we should wait for the next guy(hopefully) because if Bush does anything or nothing he will be wrong in the eyes of most. I must have been watching the wrong news too because I saw a lot of reports of rape and mass murder in Iraq before we went there but Im sure that was a bunch of lies as well. Stay in Iraq until its more stable and leave Africa alone,thats my opinion. Like Multi said, if the democrats get in the white house Im sure they will have a plan and if you listen to them then it will be a much better world. PEACE :)

[Wildcat]

Grouser, you keep bringing up genocide as a reason we should do something. Funny that should come up when Saddem was trying genocide on the Kurds for years before the first Gulf war and after we left he tried it again. Where is all those pictures of the Kurds being gassed????

[Wildcat]

What if it was about oil? so what? The welfare of our entire population is dependent on cheap and available oil. It's the most efficient and available fuel source on the planet. It powers every sector of the economy we rely on for our standard of living...Corn? Dont kid yourself.
I cant reconcile that alot of the same people who thought the sky would fall if oil hit $100 a barrel are the same ones that have been screaming no blood for oil for years. Dont forget Oil was a leading contributor to WW2. You know what? Oil may be worth fighting for.

Best post on here yet!!

Watch those same people cry again this summer when gas hits $3.00 a gal.

People can live in a dream world where everything they do is right but the truth is we WILL go to war for oil. One day we will go to war for food just like we went to war with the indians for land and gold.

[trust me]

. Where is all those pictures of the Kurds being gassed????

Here's one of them:

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/images/children_massacre1.jpg

[Multidigits]

You are all over the place politically Multi! First on the control of Congress next month, then speculate on what a new Prez might do in two years!

In your heart, what is your opinion on what you think should happen over there? Can you forget the political bashing long enough to think that question through please?

Lord forbid the genocide, and suffering lasts another 2 years!

We have shown in the past that we can get a coalition together for a good cause. Should we try that?


I think we should wait and see how the Dems attack this problem. Maybe they will start out by forming an EXIT policy first, then find an open (back) door and get in there and take it on butt first.

Besides, in 2 years they might be done?

I'm wondering why anyone would ask a Republican for advice, being every time they've done something for another country, it's always been wrong, according to the Dems.

So, let's wait and see what the Dems do?

[Multidigits]

Found this:


Senator Kennedy’s statement: “I commend the thousands of Americans coming together in Darfur Rallies in the Nation’s Capital and communities in Massachusetts and across the country to bring greater awareness to the genocide taking place in Darfur. The continuing crisis in Darfur is unacceptable and needs to be addressed at once on an urgent basis. Two years ago, Secretary of State Colin Powell agreed the crisis is “genocide,” but the brutal killing continues. As many as 400,000 men, women, and children have died and over two million more have been displaced by the vicious attacks on civilians.


I’ve urged President Bush to act immediately to assist the African Union Mission in ending the killing as soon as possible and in providing adequate security in the region for the future. It’s long past time for the United States, NATO and the United Nations to take effective steps to halt this massive, ongoing human tragedy.”


Bush is said to be considering sending Kennedy over as a form of relief. At least he could teach them to use cars and booze instead of the machetes. It would be a lot less bloody and the bodies won't be recovered until the next day, when the assailant will be sober enough to get his story together.

[kevhunter]

Found this:


until the next day, when the assailant will be sober enough to get his story together.

Really, you think he would be sober enough by then?:)

[grouser68]

Grouser, you keep bringing up genocide as a reason we should do something. Funny that should come up when Saddem was trying genocide on the Kurds for years before the first Gulf war and after we left he tried it again. Where is all those pictures of the Kurds being gassed????

I will make this statement, then try to stay away from the political.Was Saddam not just found guilty and sentenced to hang for crimes commited in 1984? Was that not the Reagan/Bush1 era?And I do remember seeing all the pic's of those Kurds laying dead in the streets!

I started this thread to try and see where peoples opinions were on this subject, not where their political opinions were on it! Again, seems the usual few found it to be just another political bashing thread! Instead of actually giving an opinion on whats happening to the innocents, not many posts on the suffering, just more of the same! I think I have a good idea of the "real" opinions now!

As a caring American citizen, not a Democrat, or any other political crap of who did what to whom 50 years ago................It's a very sad state of affairs over there! Should would do something? I believe we should! What? I have no idea, not a policy maker or General.

Forget NATO, forget the U.N. my idea would be to have a global summit.Start a Global Police Force that can strike quick whenever something like this starts up.If you have 50 countries involved all giving 1000 troops each, training together, staying together.Give them the best equipment known to man,and always have them ready. At the first whiff of genocide, or other atrosities,have a the 50 countries involved on a conference call, majority rules, and vote to go in or not!

I know thats a pipe dream, but it's the best I could come up with off the top of my head!
Anyone else have any better ideas, other than sending Kennedy, or Cheney?

[Wildcat]

Like it or not but all wars and the use of the military is political. You cannot get away from that.

With the new incoming Congress nothing much will be done since all the fighting will be inside Washington.

As for a world police force, that was the very idea behind the United Nations in 1945. Look at them today.

Anyway I would NEVER go for that since to be effective at all you have to give them full power, in other words you cannot be nick picking them. What about nuclear weapons?

It's one thing to be part of an alliance like NATO when you have a clear enemy like the USSR but it's a different ball of wax to put 50 nations together to police the world. What happens if one or two of those 50 start something then what??

[trust me]

.Start a Global Police Force that can strike quick whenever something like this starts up.If you have 50 countries involved all giving 1000 troops each, training together, staying together.Give them the best equipment known to man,and always have them ready. At the first whiff of genocide, or other atrosities,have a the 50 countries involved on a conference call, majority rules, and vote to go in or not!

I know thats a pipe dream, but it's the best I could come up with off the top of my head!
?

Yeah, that's a pipe dream alright. Which 50 countries? The developed, advanced ones? That includes Russia and China, right? Might as well let France and Germany in too, right? Well, you're beat right there, before you even get started. You just became the latest punchline to every U.N. joke ever told. As corrupt and heathenish as America is, we're an angel-faced choirboy compared to our neighbors across the seas.

[grouser68]

Yeah, I know guys! Would'nt it be nice to be a perfect world though?

We sit here, bellies full, warm, and little to no threat to any of us from an outsider coming in and and killing, raping, or starving us, or our children.

Most can't even fathom what murder and rape are really like.Pictures can't do it justice.Try and imagine what it must be like to see your dad and brothers mutilated with machetes. The cry's, screams, tears, and pain.Then being raped.Pictures and words can't come close to describing it.

I am POSITIVE everyone here would agree they would not stand for that in their home or their neighbors home.

It's going on now! Ok, now I will get a little political.........BUSH..........Put me in coach!I would wholeheartedly volunteer to go and stop the murder and rape.........TODAY!

[Multidigits]

Maybe France will help out??????.:rolleyes:

[Wildcat]

Ever heard of the Rape of Naking?

What about the Holocaust?

FDR didn't do anything about either one, in fact during the war years he didn't want any reports of the Holocaust to come to the White House.

The Rape of Naking and the start of the Holocaust came before the US was attacked in Pearl Harbor. Yet the American public was sympathetic to the oppressed but still reminded isolations until Pearl Harbor.

None of this is nothing new.

[trust me]

The Stalinist purges filled millions of graves as well. Pol Pot has a special place in hell for the millions of murders he committed. Idi Amin had a short but gruesome tenure in Uganda that was all over the news.

As much as we would like to fix all these problems in the world, we cannot.

[grouser68]

Ever heard of the Rape of Naking?

What about the Holocaust?

FDR didn't do anything about either one, in fact during the war years he didn't want any reports of the Holocaust to come to the White House.

The Rape of Naking and the start of the Holocaust came before the US was attacked in Pearl Harbor. Yet the American public was sympathetic to the oppressed but still reminded isolations until Pearl Harbor.

None of this is nothing new.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm

Wildcat, the contrast between Nanking and Darfur are so immeasurable they cannot be compared. The rape of Nanking lasted six weeks.At that time it probably took days to get the news to the U.S., would have taken weeks to amass a force, and at least 3 weeks by ship to even get to mainland China. Then days if not weeks to get to Nanking.Even if FDR wanted to do something, the entire thing would have been over and history before we could ever arrive! The logistics to intervene back in 1937 just were not available.

The entire world, and Darfur, or any country for that matter are a scant few hours for us to intervene. Also, the Darfur genocide started in the spring of 2003 and has progressively gotten worse.

The six week period in Nanking and the almost 4 year genocide in Darfur are two totally different animals.

[Wildcat]

Guess what?? The Rape of Nanking was in 1937 and the Japs kept killing, raping and all other stuff in Naking and all the part of China they controled until 1945. 8 whole years!!!

It DID NOT stop in a couple weeks. They say between 6 and 8 million Chinese died in WW II. As for the Holocaust, FDR didn't want to hear anything about the Jews.

[Multidigits]

Heard of Somolia too, but that was a different era.

[grouser68]

Guess what?? The Rape of Nanking was in 1937 and the Japs kept killing, raping and all other stuff in Naking and all the part of China they controled until 1945. 8 whole years!!!

It DID NOT stop in a couple weeks. They say between 6 and 8 million Chinese died in WW II. As for the Holocaust, FDR didn't want to hear anything about the Jews.

Sorry Wildcat, your wrong! The ACTUAL Rape of Nanking lasted six weeks in history! Now maybe the rape of China was 8 years, but Nanking the damage was done in 6 weeks.

In December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China's capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war

[daking]

Well, the score today is forces of good 1: Evil despotic dictators 0. The bad guys in Dufar shoudl take careful note. When we say OR ELSE, we mean OR ELSE. Or at least we should.

[Wildcat]

Sorry Wildcat, your wrong! The ACTUAL Rape of Nanking lasted six weeks in history! Now maybe the rape of China was 8 years, but Nanking the damage was done in 6 weeks.

In December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China's capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war

Oh so now the Japs quit the killing in Nanking in 8 weeks.

Sorry but they kept the killing up for 8 years in fact they never left Nanking until just before the end of the war in 1945.

[Wildcat]

AteUp got it right, your fishing.

[grouser68]

Oh so now the Japs quit the killing in Nanking in 8 weeks.

Sorry but they kept the killing up for 8 years in fact they never left Nanking until just before the end of the war in 1945.


Sorry Wildcat, wrong again!


Back in Nanking, however, all was not lost. An extraordinary group of about 20 Americans and Europeans remaining in the city, composed of missionaries, doctors and businessmen, took it upon themselves to establish an International Safety Zone. Using Red Cross flags, they brazenly declared a 2.5 square-mile area in the middle of the city off limits to the Japanese. On numerous occasions, they also risked their lives by personally intervening to prevent the execution of Chinese men or the rape of women and young girls.
These Westerners became the unsung heroes of Nanking, working day and night to the point of exhaustion to aid the Chinese. They also wrote down their impressions of the daily scenes they witnessed, with one describing Nanking as "hell on earth." Another wrote of the Japanese soldiers: "I did not imagine that such cruel people existed in the modern world." About 300,000 Chinese civilians took refuge inside their Safety Zone. Almost all of the people who did not make it into the Zone during the Rape of Nanking ultimately perished.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/redline.jpg

[grouser68]

AteUp got it right, your fishing.

Once again......wrong! Sorry Wildcat, but when you post comparisons, you should really check the facts first! I know, your upset that the facts of your own post about Nanking turned out to be all wrong. Not my fault! But I know ya gotta try and find a way to save face.

Fishing? Nope! I posted a thread that went political, then when that was shut down, you tried the old standard.....history! Tried to compare conditions of 37 to 06. There really is no comparison between these two atrocities.

This thread is'nt a game Wildcat, or a blame fest. I asked for thoughts and opinions. I gave mine!

[maxcam]

For what its worth, I dont think we should do a darn thing to help anyone that didnt help us in Afganistan or Iraq!

If we dont deserve the support of the world for ridding it of the Taliban or of evil dictators like Sadam then we dont need to be involved with the problems of the world.....We can just concern ourselves with what directly threatens us......The next time, and there will be a next time, that France or Italy are invaded.....Let them enjoy their new ways of life!

[Multidigits]

Naking = the Japs kill 300,000 in 8 weeks

Dufar = 400,000??? dead in over 3 years

Sounds like the later has more bodies, but the former was a lot more violent and a lot quicker with basicly the same result. I'd guess that just about every single Jap that participated in the so called Rape of Naking didn't make it trough to the big bang in 1945?

No doubt, both are terrible events in history.

I'm still trying to figure out why it's a bad thing to stop the artocities in Iraq and work like hell to get us out of that country before the job is done, then turn around and ask why we aren't doing the same thing in another part of the world. Sounds kind of talking out of both sides of the mouth to me.

[grouser68]

I dunno guys, for me personally it is black and white. I have never been able to see the shades of grey.You are either for something, or against something, no fence riding.

These things are bigger than politics or any other excuse.Who really cares what this one will say, or what fuel will be given for the political fires as long as it would save lives, specifically........kids and babies lives!

For me it boils down to this:

Genocide, murder, rape,displacement,and starvation of a people, any people,is a slap in the face of humanity. And I for one have never learned to turn the other cheek!

[grouser68]

Naking = the Japs kill 300,000 in 8 weeks

Dufar = 400,000??? dead in over 3 years

Sounds like the later has more bodies, but the former was a lot more violent and a lot quicker with basicly the same result. I'd guess that just about every single Jap that participated in the so called Rape of Naking didn't make it trough to the big bang in 1945?

No doubt, both are terrible events in history.

I'm still trying to figure out why it's a bad thing to stop the artocities in Iraq and work like hell to get us out of that country before the job is done, then turn around and ask why we aren't doing the same thing in another part of the world. Sounds kind of talking out of both sides of the mouth to me.

Multi, seriously???????????

I was under the asumption we invaded Iraq because of WMD'S and because Iraq was a threat to our national security? While Saddams murdering of over 200,000 of his own people in a 20 some odd year reign was an atrocity(I know I have posted this next part over 6 or 8 times) in the same year we invaded Iraq, the govt. of Rwanda killed over 850,000 of their own people, in that year alone. If as you say we invaded Iraq for humanitarian reasons, why did'nt we do the same in Rwanda?

BTW, it is not a bad thing to stop atrocities in any country, including Iraq! It is a bad thing back tracking and saying now that genocide was the reason we invaded Iraq in the first place. Thats really talking out of both sides.

[Wildcat]

Nope grouser, I'm NOT wrong.

I read the book before you ever heard about Nanking.

Go back to your first post, you are talking about a whole country but you titled it Darfur. Now I make a remark about Nanking to compair and you want to end it all in 8 weeks in 1937 but not talk about China yet the Japs did not leave Nanking until 1945.

Heck, I've got the darn book right here in my bookshelf. You need to read it someday instead of cut and paste.

You've dropped to attacking Multi and me now , that means you've spend your load and have nothing.As for face saving you are fishing and trying to turn it around. Heck, you've been doing this all night from the first post.

As for turning the other cheek you are full of it. You turned you back to IRAQ and the Kruds all year on every single political thread you was on. All you are doing is fishing for something in the world to make points. In 4 days the democrat controled Congress will not do anything either.

Wither you like it or not the US has not helped everybody nor should it. It's been that way though history.

What subject will you use on your next fishing thread???

[maxcam]

I thought my answer was pretty black and white......If its not a threat to us or one of our allies then let them kill, rape, rob mutilate or do what ever they want to each other.....

As for humanitarian concerns......Where would the rest of the world be without the United States in all honesty!

[grouser68]

Nope grouser, I'm NOT wrong.

I read the book before you ever heard about Nanking.

Go back to your first post, you are talking about a whole country but you titled it Darfur. Now I make a remark about Nanking to compair and you want to end it all in 8 weeks in 1937 but not talk about China yet the Japs did not leave Nanking until 1945.

Heck, I've got the darn book right here in my bookshelf. You need to read it someday instead of cut and paste.

Ypou've dropped to attacking me now , that means you've spend your load and have nothing.As for face saving you are fishing and trying to turn it around. Heck, you've been doing this all night from the first post.

As for turning the other cheek you are full of it. You turned you back to IRAQ and the Kruds all year on every single political thread you was on. All you are doing is fishing for something in the world to make points. In 4 days the democrat controled Congress will not do anything either.

Ok, your older than me, and you read a book! You must have missed the chapter where they set up the 2.5 mile red cross perimeter where half the city went for refuge and were untouched by the Japs!

As for fishing! Yup, me and my uncle went 3 weeks ago on the Licking, was the best and most productive day I have had on the river in 2 years! Caught 7 keeper bass and a 19 1/2 inch sauger, and man were they good eating!

As for turning my back and being full of it........your wayyyyyy out in left field Wildcat!You know not of what you speak! Your grasping for straws now, I have never turned my back on anyone in need of help when I could help! As for the Kurds, I dunno, has someone been killing them wholesale in the past year that I had my back turned?

Keep trying Wildcat, you'll get it right when you delve deep enough.

[grouser68]

I thought my answer was pretty black and white......If its not a threat to us or one of our allies then let them kill, rape, rob mutilate or do what ever they want to each other.....

As for humanitarian concerns......Where would the rest of the world be without the United States in all honesty!

You aint' all there max, your a nut, funny thing is......I like it!:D

[eddiejohn4]

There will be no easy solution to the crises in Darfur, as the conflict has to many variables and factions involved. Between the SLM and the armed janjaweed millia backed by the sundanese goverment and the repressed baggara tribes makes peace talks all most impossible.

It will take a concerted effort from all the civilized nations to intervene and stop the slaughter.

[BiggerBuck]

Like it or not but all wars and the use of the military is political. You cannot get away from that.

With the new incoming Congress nothing much will be done since all the fighting will be inside Washington.

As for a world police force, that was the very idea behind the United Nations in 1945. Look at them today.

Anyway I would NEVER go for that since to be effective at all you have to give them full power, in other words you cannot be nick picking them. What about nuclear weapons?

It's one thing to be part of an alliance like NATO when you have a clear enemy like the USSR but it's a different ball of wax to put 50 nations together to police the world. What happens if one or two of those 50 start something then what??

I agree with some of your statements about the UN. I do beleive that they will be a part of the future fighting force in the world though.
We are talking about Dems and Reps when we do not realy know who the real enemy is because we are so brainwashed.
Has anyone read about the New World Order? Look at a $1 bill and under the pyramid it says it in latin. The same 13 families have been ruling things for the past 3 centuries. We need to come together instead of arguing about
liberals or conservatives. There are Patriots and Non Patriots in my opinion.
Check this out and do some more reading on this subject and tell me what you guys think about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy)

[Multidigits]

Multi, seriously???????????

I was under the asumption we invaded Iraq because of WMD'S and because Iraq was a threat to our national security? While Saddams murdering of over 200,000 of his own people in a 20 some odd year reign was an atrocity(I know I have posted this next part over 6 or 8 times) in the same year we invaded Iraq, the govt. of Rwanda killed over 850,000 of their own people, in that year alone. If as you say we invaded Iraq for humanitarian reasons, why did'nt we do the same in Rwanda?

BTW, it is not a bad thing to stop atrocities in any country, including Iraq! It is a bad thing back tracking and saying now that genocide was the reason we invaded Iraq in the first place. Thats really talking out of both sides.

We invaded Iraq for several reasons, WMD was one of them. Read the headlines in todays paper and you'll see one of the reasons why.

What happens when we go to Darfur and get our butts kicked a couple of times like happen in somolia and the Dems cry about it and say lets get out now!!! Meanwhile, the killing keeps on.

You boys want to play world nurse maid until the going gets rough then it's time to hide under the lady with the torch's dress.

Back to the topic.....let's wait and see what the Dems are going to do about this problem.....shouldn't be too much longer.

[grouser68]

We invaded Iraq for several reasons, WMD was one of them. Read the headlines in todays paper and you'll see one of the reasons why.

What happens when we go to Darfur and get our butts kicked a couple of times like happen in somolia and the Dems cry about it and say lets get out now!!! Meanwhile, the killing keeps on.

You boys want to play world nurse maid until the going gets rough then it's time to hide under the lady with the torch's dress.

Back to the topic.....let's wait and see what the Dems are going to do about this problem.....shouldn't be too much longer.

I just know you aint talkin' to this Ol' Marine about hiding under dresses! I have been in more rough patches then you have patches and never once taking a knee.

As stated in an earlier post, I will gladly hop a boat today and head to Darfur to stop the atrocities.All we need is for someone, anyone, to find a pair and realize whats going on.Am I talking about Bush and the Rep's? NOT EVEN CLOSE! All our politicians need to get their heads outta their salad shooters and quit worrying about political gains and do the right thing.

Some feel more than others when it comes to crimes like these, just maybe they have seen too much of it and want it to end for all time.What gets me is the kids, they are dying of starvation, being raped,seeing their parents raped and hacked to death, dying of diseases, etc.

Were these atrocities happening here and we were powerless to defend against them, we would all be on our kness praying for help......from anyone.

We are supposedly the all powerful nation.If this is true then we have the power to stop this.If we were smart,we could probably end it without putting a boot on the ground.

[grouser68]

Multi, for one that seemingly knows so much about how our govt. works, you know full well the Dem's can't do the first thing to help in Darfur! They can't give the order to send troops, aid, or even a toothbrush! How are you propsing they can do anything? What can they do were they to take up the mantle?

[trust me]

If we were smart,we could probably end it without putting a boot on the ground.

I'll go along with you up til this point, Grouser. An old grunt like yourself should know that air power and push-button technology will never take the place of the rifleman on the ground. You can destroy buildings and infrastructure with cruise missile diplomacy, but there will always be some rats crawling out of the wreckage and a good man with a good rifle and the will to use it is the only way to finish the job.

Artillery and carpet bombing have never won a battle. (Nuclear weapons are the exception and enabled us to whip Japan without invading, but we shouldn't even mention those.)

[grouser68]

I'll go along with you up til this point, Grouser. An old grunt like yourself should know that air power and push-button technology will never take the place of the rifleman on the ground. You can destroy buildings and infrastructure with cruise missile diplomacy, but there will always be some rats crawling out of the wreckage and a good man with a good rifle and the will to use it is the only way to finish the job.

Artillery and carpet bombing have never won a battle. (Nuclear weapons are the exception and enabled us to whip Japan without invading, but we shouldn't even mention those.)

Naw Trust, I was'nt talking about military force. I know full well the value of a grunt. I was talking about our power and ability to make others bend to our will.At first Sudan did'nt want any troops that were'nt African in there, now they have changed their minds.Seems the AU troops run and hide.I was actually thinking that if we played our cards right there is more than likely a way to end this with no boots on the ground, no bombs, no planes, etc.

I have heard here, and read it all over the internet of how doing something there would open up a new front on the war on terrorism.Our own Prez. Bush said something along these lines on a few occasions"What we do is'nt regulated by what we think the terrorists may do.If we bow down and live our lives afraid of what terrorists might do.......they have already won!" I respect Bush on that point because I feel the same way.If we stop trying to do the right thing for fear of terrorists, how long will it be that we are closed in? And after that, how long will it be that we are afraid to go 10 miles offshore fishing in fear there may be a terrorist in a dingy out there waiting on us? I don't subscribe to the mentality of our hands are tied because of what terrorists might do .
.

[Multidigits]

Multi, for one that seemingly knows so much about how our govt. works, you know full well the Dem's can't do the first thing to help in Darfur! They can't give the order to send troops, aid, or even a toothbrush! How are you propsing they can do anything? What can they do were they to take up the mantle?


Let's wait and see. I'm sure there's a plan???

[trust me]

Naw Trust, I was'nt talking about military force. .

10-4. I misunderstood.

[Multidigits]

Naw Trust, I was'nt talking about military force. I know full well the value of a grunt. I was talking about our power and ability to make others bend to our will.At first Sudan did'nt want any troops that were'nt African in there, now they have changed their minds.Seems the AU troops run and hide.I was actually thinking that if we played our cards right there is more than likely a way to end this with no boots on the ground, no bombs, no planes, etc.

I have heard here, and read it all over the internet of how doing something there would open up a new front on the war on terrorism.Our own Prez. Bush said something along these lines on a few occasions"What we do is'nt regulated by what we think the terrorists may do.If we bow down and live our lives afraid of what terrorists might do.......they have already won!" I respect Bush on that point because I feel the same way.If we stop trying to do the right thing for fear of terrorists, how long will it be that we are closed in? And after that, how long will it be that we are afraid to go 10 miles offshore fishing in fear there may be a terrorist in a dingy out there waiting on us? I don't subscribe to the mentality of our hands are tied because of what terrorists might do .
.


See, now that's a good plan. Talk them out of killing each other. I suggest Al Gore do the talking, that was his plan on Iraq. Send him over there with the olive branch and a dove. That should work????

[aceoky]

my idea would be to have a global summit.

Start a Global Police Force that can strike quick whenever something like this starts up.

This "World Police" would they allow Americans to own guns??
I seriously doubt it, especially since the UN tried to disarm us for a "similar reason" already this year........:eek:

Though that IS "The Plan", things are not "bad enough" YET for us to allow it, that's why there is going to be more and more such things brought to our attention, at "Some Point" most people will see things are 'bad enough" to give up whatever they have to "so as to achieve peace and security", (probably at an early point in WWIII).........

Things we don't want to hear, but just sit back and watch it happen.....why all this "global union" talk? The UN is a "joke"??

Think it will be when things get so bad WorldWide, that they have "the answers" they say we need???Why all this "nuclear talk" from North Korea, and Iran?? HOW far would most people be willing to go to avoid all out Nuclear War??

Wars and Rumors of wars, folks that IS what this is all about.......no more and no less, those who want a ONE world government KNOW that WE must be so scared as to give up our very freedoms (for Peace and Safety) in order for them to EVER gain that .....
...It's OK if you think I'm a "nut", time will soon prove what is "what"......and mark it down, FEAR is the motivating factor, thus the great unrest in the "Middle East" (especially around Israel) Nuclear threats, the promise to destroy Israel, etc.etc.etc. are ALL part of that , just as so many "terrorist threats" are as well..... I have NO doubts that there will be some nukes deployed somewhere, for those who want this so badly to be able to acheive the level of fear that's needed, once that happens watch how quickly the UN gets FULL control over the various Nations, people will be convinced it's the ONLY way to survive , in this world with so many dangerous weapons, ONE power (THE UN) must have full and total control over these weapons AND the various Nations in order to preserve peace and stop total Global destruction........sounds "silly ' NOW, but see if it does when Nukes start being used on even a smaller scale, THAT will be enough to cause panic like we've never even dreamed of, and make any other attacks seem small in comparision. The ONLY reason Iran needs Nukes (they have more than enough OIL for all the "Power" they'd need for survival........Nukes are other types of power for them , anyone can see through that, yet they've been allowed to make and possess them since 2002 .....at least)

The Muslims want to Totally destroy Israel ( a Bibical impossibility), thus they are doomed before they start, it's inevitable they'll fight and destroy working toward this end, which will at some point lead to their own total destruction, they've been drilled from birth to KILL everyone who's beliefs do not mirror their own, and even told they have a special place in Heaven for them IF they happen to die in the process!

How long have they called for a "HOLY WAR" against ALL Christians and Jews?? Soon they're going to get their wish (someone should have taught them to be very careful what you wish for , you just might get it), when they do in fact get it, it WILL be WWIII, and will be the worst most bloody war of all time, which will be so severe in all areas, to cause the collapse of what is now the world, death tolls beyond belief, entire economies will be destroyed, NO third world countries will be spared as they're a "drag" on rebuilding (which explains why no one is doing much for any of them, they Know they're not going to be spared from destruction)......

One more point to consider, while Clinton was saying the "Cold War is Over", and he cut OUR military by huge "bites" both Russia and China were building thier own's up at alarming rates.........makes one take pause when considering OUR going in to another world war, much less THE BIG ONE .....???

[grouser68]

Your not a nut Ace, good post!

[eddiejohn4]

The attrocities in Darfur will not be stopped by any one nation. There is just too many problems in that region that needs to be addressed.

I think that it will take an effort by all, not just the united states to make a lastable peace in a region that has been fighting for decades.

Personly I do not think we have the stomach for a long fight any more. This should be obvious with what we are observing right now.

We ran from Somalia the first time we had problems ,I do not think it would go any better the second time around.

We cannot help all ,and we need to focus on the problem at hand ,and that is the fight were in with the muslim extremists.

[Multidigits]

We ran from Somalia the first time we had problems ,I do not think it would go any better the second time around.

.


Who pulled us out?????

[eddiejohn4]

Clinton pulled us out, and Osama bin Laden later thanked Clinton for this decision as it helped in emboldering his fighters.

I have to add that Clintons decision was urged on by Senator Murtha.

[eddiejohn4]

Here is a statement made by Bin Laden after our withdrawfrom Somalia.

" a few days ago the news agencies had reported that the crusading americans had said that the explosion at Riydha and Al Khobar had taught them one lesson and that is not to run when attacked be coward terrorists. We say to the defence secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fear that has enshrined you all.

Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beruit took place in 1983 ad? you were turned into scattered bits and pieces at that time. and where was your courage when explosions made you leave Aden in less then 24 hours.

But your most disgraced case was in Somalia; where after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order moved tens of thousands of international troops including 28 thousand american troops into Somalia. however when tens of your soldiers were killed in minor battles and one US pilot was dragged through the streets of Mogadishu you ran in humiliation.

[grouser68]

Question: What does bringing up the past and blaming Clinton, Murtha, and Reagan have to do with Darfur?

[eddiejohn4]

Very simple its a statement on how we have not the stomach for a long battle. I thought that was painfully obvious in my previous posts.

I am also not blamming Clinton as he was pressured much the same as Bush is catching hell now. We have lost the abilitiy to remain focused so just how would we help in Darfur? In Somalia we were there to make sure food was recieved by the people in need ,instead it was confiscated by war lords and used for power. We did not stay to make sure that mission was fulfilled. I fear the same would be true in Darfur.

[grouser68]

Thats precisely the question I am asking! All my pipe dream ideas get shot down, so I was wondering what everyone else thought! Instead,seems to be more political bashing, and grouser68 bashing! Supposedly I am fishing!:confused: :confused: :confused:

[eddiejohn4]

No Im not politically bashing I leave that up to all the media types. I am stating a fact. Darfur would be a long long process . This will take all nations, we cannot do it ourselfs. I wish we could help,as those poor people are dying every minute.

And Im certaintly not Grouser bashing, I have no reason too. I am however disapointed with my country men for their lack of fortitude. We are getting weak Grouser and we need to be born again hard in order to prevail against this enemy. as they have unlimited patience. Have you ever heard the term death by a thousand wounds?

[Multidigits]

Question: What does bringing up the past and blaming Clinton, Murtha, and Reagan have to do with Darfur?


Like said earlier, your wanting us to go to another African nation and help them out, same as we did in Somalia.

Soon as the first blood is let, you'll want to quit the job at hand and jigh tail it home. Just like Somolia, just like Iraq, just as Darfur. You as in Democrat. Sorry, this time it won't be that easy.

I'd prefer that this time the Dems decide the course of action. Hopefully it's to stay home first and not after we take it on the chin.

[grouser68]

No Im not politically bashing I leave that up to all the media types. I am stateing a fact. Darfur would be a long long process . This will take all nations, we cannot do it ourselfs. I wish we could help,as those poor people are dying every minute.

And Im certaintly not Grouser bashing, I have no reason too. I am however disapointed with my country men for their lack of fortitude. We are getting weak Grouser and we need to be born again hard in order to prevail against this enemy. as they have unlimited patience. Have you ever heard the term death by a thousand wounds?

Eddiejohn please forgive me, I was'nt accusing you at all of grouser bashing,that was said in jest!

I agree, we do need to get tougher than nails. I also believe we need to reroute and change directions on a few of the mistakes we are currently making.As for any kind of humanitarian mission in Darfur, whether it be military, or air drop supplies and medicines, we need to do something.At present it looks as if we have our back turned.I repeat this also,Pres. Bush has said many times in the past that what we do, and the decisions we make should not be determined by what others MIGHT do.Should we base our lives on the fears of what terrorism will bring, then the terrorists have already won! I agree totally with that statement! Time to get tough Eddiejohn, I agree!

[maxcam]

Kennedy will proclaim in a drunken stupor that we need committ all our resources to the UN and let them have control of our men and women to go in and save Darfur!

Kerry will concur by saying .....I was for this plan before I was against it and still support it before I vote to not fund it....

Schumer will proclaim that the US should be leaders of the world and ban the selling of all machettes and promise that its best for all humanity!

Levin will stand at the podem, his tie stained with cannolli, and tell America that he will not stand by and witness another injustice and then sit back down without offering an explanation as to what the heck he is even talking about.....

Biden will order congressional investigations and hold hearings and blame President Bush for the entire thing.....

Palosi will make only a brief statement as to how this administration is to blame for the whole mess in Darfur and then quickly exit before her pancake makeup begins to melt off her face.....

Hillary will wait patiently before giving her speech, then once all the polls are in, she will form her opinions and scream them from the top of her lungs to all that care to listen....

Does anyone disagree with this prediction?

[grouser68]

Like said earlier, your wanting us to go to another African nation and help them out, same as we did in Somalia.

Soon as the first blood is let, you'll want to quit the job at hand and jigh tail it home. Just like Somolia, just like Iraq, just as Darfur. You as in Democrat. Sorry, this time it won't be that easy.

I'd prefer that this time the Dems decide the course of action. Hopefully it's to stay home first and not after we take it on the chin.

Multi, please, please stop telling me what I will do! I don't really take it personally Multi cause I know you are the Major pot stirer and right wing radical. If you were'nt able to Democrat bash you would'nt be able to breathe!Looks as if Maxcam just got to take a deep breath too!

A thread asking for thoughts on atrocities in the Darfur region of Sudan in Africa and looking through your posts Multi, here are the words you list the most:

Democrats-10
Darfur-3
Edwards-1
Hillary-1
Kennedy-1
Gore-1
Atrocity-1
Africa-1

Looks like the Democrats lay heavily on your mind! A definate political agenda there!

Can you think of any constructive critsism on Darfur, or just more Dem bashing? Is Dem bashing the answer for everything for you Multi?

[Multidigits]

Multi, please, please stop telling me what I will do! I don't really take it personally Multi cause I know you are the Major pot stirer and right wing radical. If you were'nt able to Democrat bash you would'nt be able to breathe!Looks as if Maxcam just got to take a deep breath too!

A thread asking for thoughts on atrocities in the Darfur region of Sudan in Africa and looking through your posts Multi, here are the words you list the most:

Democrats-10
Darfur-3
Edwards-1
Hillary-1
Kennedy-1
Gore-1
Atrocity-1
Africa-1

Looks like the Democrats lay heavily on your mind! A definate political agenda there!

Can you think of any constructive critsism on Darfur, or just more Dem bashing? Is Dem bashing the answer for everything for you Multi?

Grouser, yours is the first post to make personal this thread. In mine the
"You" in the post refers to Democrats (as noted) not you as grouser personally. That was very plain. The problem is that you have made it very plain that you are a Democrat, that you supported Bill Clinton, and that you want us out of Iraq. Then you agreed with eddie that we (as in America) are getting soft in our old age and don't have the stomach for the fight any longer. That's because of the Democrats, not anyone else that have demanded that we pull out of several major conflicts without seeing them through. Not Republicans, Democrats.

Then by some stange twist, you seem to insist that we get involved in another major engagement with another African nation that will no doubt turn out to be exactly like Somolia turned out.

My suggestion was to wait for the Democrats, and your saying it's Dem bashing. It's not, it's a real plan. soone the Dems will have control of Congress, won't be long the Dems will be in the Whitehouse again, most likely another Clinton. Maybe the second Clinton can finish what the first one started in Africa, just like the second Bush finished what the first one started in Iraq. See, history does have a way of repeating itself.

Just a few more days and we'll see if Darfur becomes a household name or if it's sweep under the rug???

[grouser68]

Grouser, yours is the first post to make personal this thread. In mine the
"You" in the post refers to Democrats (as noted) not you as grouser personally. That was very plain. The problem is that you have made it very plain that you are a Democrat, that you supported Bill Clinton, and that you want us out of Iraq. Then you agreed with eddie that we (as in America) are getting soft in our old age and don't have the stomach for the fight any longer. That's because of the Democrats, not anyone else that have demanded that we pull out of several major conflicts without seeing them through. Not Republicans, Democrats.

Then by some stange twist, you seem to insist that we get involved in another major engagement with another African nation that will no doubt turn out to be exactly like Somolia turned out.

My suggestion was to wait for the Democrats, and your saying it's Dem bashing. It's not, it's a real plan. soone the Dems will have control of Congress, won't be long the Dems will be in the Whitehouse again, most likely another Clinton. Maybe the second Clinton can finish what the first one started in Africa, just like the second Bush finished what the first one started in Iraq. See, history does have a way of repeating itself.

Just a few more days and we'll see if Darfur becomes a household name or if it's sweep under the rug???

1. I did'nt vote for Clinton either time,can't stomach a draft dodger.After in office he did do a fine job though.But he got no support from me.

2. Not on this thread have I said get out of Iraq! My opinion there is end it, bring the troops home! Can I not have my opinon Multi? Just because you don't agree with my opinion does'nt make it wrong.Opinions are neither right or wrong.

3.Not once did I insist we get involved! I said my ideas and thoughts would be to get involved.Your thoughts were more dem bashing.

I would respect your opinion Multi, if I could find one.

[grouser68]

The problem is that you have made it very plain that you are a Democrat, that you supported Bill Clinton, and that you want us out of Iraq

The only part of that sentence you got right is that I am a Democrat!Sure I want us out of Iraq, don't we all? But not in the cut n run way you imply with all dems.

Multi, you say "the problem is", looks like you may have a problem with dems. I would venture to say you hate a specific political party almost, if not more than terrorists!I say were all Americans, lets try to live together.

[Multidigits]

1. I did'nt vote for Clinton either time,can't stomach a draft dodger.After in office he did do a fine job though.But he got no support from me.

2. Not on this thread have I said get out of Iraq! My opinion there is end it, bring the troops home! Can I not have my opinon Multi? Just because you don't agree with my opinion does'nt make it wrong.Opinions are neither right or wrong.

3.Not once did I insist we get involved! I said my ideas and thoughts would be to get involved.Your thoughts were more dem bashing.

I would respect your opinion Multi, if I could find one.


1. I find it hard to believe that you would vote for a Republican, and you don't say you did, so I guess you didn't vote?

2. You've said we need to get out of Iraq on several threads. It's relevant to the post by eddie, that you agreed with. Double talk. Either we stay and finish the job or you disagree with what eddie posted. It can't be both ways.

3. You want us to get involved. Your arguement is that we should get involved. It's all relevant to the whole. If we get involved, American troops will die eventually, and then the will to get involved disappears. Just as before.

You say opinions are neither right nor wrong, then you say my opinion is wrong??? More double talk?? See you, have a good new year. Hopefully, somebody else will do the dirty work on this one???

[grouser68]

1. I find it hard to believe that you would vote for a Republican, and you don't say you did, so I guess you didn't vote?

2. You've said we need to get out of Iraq on several threads. It's relevant to the post by eddie, that you agreed with. Double talk. Either we stay and finish the job or you disagree with what eddie posted. It can't be both ways.

3. You want us to get involved. Your arguement is that we should get involved. It's all relevant to the whole. If we get involved, American troops will die eventually, and then the will to get involved disappears. Just as before.

You say opinions are neither right nor wrong, then you say my opinion is wrong??? More double talk?? See you, have a good new year. Hopefully, somebody else will do the dirty work on this one???

Your hopeless! You really need to ACTUALLY read the posts!

Not in a habit of discussing my voting habits, but I voted for Ross the first time, the second time if there would have been a Republican worthy, I would have voted for him!I like and respect Dole, just not as President!

My post to Eddiejohn said we need to get tough! Yes, I do agree, very much so with that!Had nothing to do with Iraq! We need not worry about terrorists when it comes to making decisions about what to do on hunamitarian missions in other parts of the world!

I DID NOT say your opinion was wrong, just said I did'nt see one!

You keep trying to relate this to Iraq into every post, and it has nothing to do with anything I have posted.Your trying to read something into it that just is'nt there!

You have a good New Year too Multi!

[eddiejohn4]

May we all have a good new year:)

[deerslayer61]

We waited to darn long to get involved there. I would have to agree that if there was oil or some other interest there, we would have been there in a heart beat. This is another example of the United Nations sitting around with their thumbs up their you know what. The whole world dropped the ball on this.

[maxcam]

According to this we are already involved grouser.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16480247/

If you dont believe the President of the United States, maybe you will believe the words of the enemy! :rolleyes: