another crooked crosshairs question

[georgia hammer]

A few days ago I started a thread about how to get crosshairs straight.Many of you had great ideas, but I have one more dilema.

Seems like the easiest way is to get the rifle plumb or level and then set the vertical hairs to a plumb bob.

The only problem I have is this.My gun is a Remington model 7 ss/syn.When you look at the gun from the butt end you can see with your naked eye the action and the stock are canted a little from each other.When you get the gun level according to a level you can physcally see that the gun is however not level.The stock or the action one may be made a tad bit higher on one side or the other.When you then set the crosshairs true vertical with a plumb and match it with a supposedly level rifle - you can look through the scope and clearly see that there is no way on this planet that the crsshairs are right.

Any suggestions on how to get a rifle with this sort of problem plumb?

[trust me]

The problem is called "canting". I have a terrible time getting crosshairs lined up. I must cant every rifle i shoot to the side because every scope I mount is off a few degrees, and I have to go back and fix it.

I've never noticed the action and the stock being off like you describe, but I'm sure it can happen. Regardless, you want that scope precisely on top of the action/barrel when you shoot. So I'd forget the stock and focus on the action and scope. As long as you keep them lined up, you can adjust your stock mount/grip and keep everything even.

[Auk1124]

Like Trust Me said I'd ignore the stock and level the scope in relation to the action. Easiest way I found to level the action is put the rifle in a gun rest and take an angle indicator, a flat bottomed little gadget you can get at hardware stores, and rest the indicator on the top of the rear scope base before the scope is mounted. With the rifle action truly level I then carefully attach my rings and scope without jarring the action out of level, then do the string and weight trick to level the scope. Best way I've figured out to do it, anyway.

[Multidigits]

Level your crosshairs by looking through the scope with the rifle mounted to your shoulder. If you do it any other way, and more than one person uses the rifle, one of them might comment that the hairs are crooked. As long as they look level to the primary user, don't worry about what others that shoulder the rifle say. In other words, most everyone will mount the rifle differently and have a different view.

[Auk1124]

Not to argue the subject but if you level your scope according to your eyeballs and not in relation to the action, you may end up with a canted scope. What looks right to the eye isn't necessarily level.

[Multidigits]

Not to argue the subject but if you level your scope according to your eyeballs and not in relation to the action, you may end up with a canted scope. What looks right to the eye isn't necessarily level.


Depends totally on how you shoulder the rifle. Makes no difference in how your rifle will shoot.

[Auk1124]

But it will make a difference if you don't shoulder the rifle exactly the same way, every shot, every time. That is tough for me to do.

The problem with scope cant as I understand it is that it makes windage and elevation adjustments tough. On a level scope two clicks up = two clicks straight up, no change in windage. On a scope canted from the rifle's bore, two clicks up will be up some, and over to the left or right some. At longer distances this could be a problem.

Probably don't matter on a hunting rifle, since nobody much ever messes with scope adjustments anyway, but it is just one variable that can be eliminated without much trouble. Call it mental reassurance or whatever. But I like my scopes lined up as best as possible with the bore. That way I can't blame my misses on the scope, just on me.

[Multidigits]

But it will make a difference if you don't shoulder the rifle exactly the same way, every shot, every time. That is tough for me to do.

The problem with scope cant as I understand it is that it makes windage and elevation adjustments tough. On a level scope two clicks up = two clicks straight up, no change in windage. On a scope canted from the rifle's bore, two clicks up will be up some, and over to the left or right some. At longer distances this could be a problem.

Probably don't matter on a hunting rifle, since nobody much ever messes with scope adjustments anyway, but it is just one variable that can be eliminated without much trouble. Call it mental reassurance or whatever. But I like my scopes lined up as best as possible with the bore. That way I can't blame my misses on the scope, just on me.


Simple, shoulder the rifle so that the crosshairs are straight. That is after you install the scope with the crosshairs straight.

[georgia hammer]

Let me ask you a question.When you set your crosshairs level with the bore, do you have to twist the gun to make them appear level?If you have even a slight natural cant and you set the crosshairs level with the bore then when you shoulder the gun the crosshairs will look off bad.That would drive me bananas having to turn and twist my gun for 10 minutes trying to get them to look straight.I just shoulder it and adjust the crosshairs so that when I look through the scope they just naturally fall into place so to speak.

p.s. There is "not a person on this forum period" without spending loads of money that can take the gun I'm talking about and level the crosshairs vertical and horizontal to the bore and they look straight when you hold it.Unless you are laying on your side while the gun is in the level position.That's why when mounting a scope on this rig you have to use the old eyeball method.

[GunCat]

To get the crosshairs square with the rifle's action this little device has worked like a charm for me:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=13069&title=SCOPE+RETICLE+LEVELER

The brass rod rests on a flat spot on the receiver or scope base. Rubber bands wrap under the action and hold it on place. You look through the scope and rotate it until the crosshairs are level with the black lines on the device. That way you are squaring the scope with the action (and bore), not the stock.

Quick and easy to use and accurate enough for anybodies hunting rifle.

[shogan]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but here is my thought.

The barrell is round. As long as the bullet is leaving a round barrell it doesn't matter it's relation to the action.

What matters is the crosshairs being perpindicular. Yes this requires consistent hold but that is the case no matter what.

If the stock fits so that the action is slightly canted then that is the way it fits.

If you draw up and the scope seems off then you have a problem.

NOW I have noticed that my scope is perfect for how I draw up the rifle. But when I set it on a flat rest and shoot it's canted.

[GSP]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but here is my thought.

The barrell is round. As long as the bullet is leaving a round barrell it doesn't matter it's relation to the action.

What matters is the crosshairs being perpindicular. Yes this requires consistent hold but that is the case no matter what.

If the stock fits so that the action is slightly canted then that is the way it fits.

If you draw up and the scope seems off then you have a problem.

NOW I have noticed that my scope is perfect for how I draw up the rifle. But when I set it on a flat rest and shoot it's canted.

You got sharpened up there!:D
Set the scope as Shogan & Multi said. Set it for YOU!
Go to a precision rifle match that shoots at 50 feet. They will almost all shoot with a cant. These guys can not be off the thickness of a piece of paper. Again, set your rifle to YOU.

[Multidigits]

The barrell is round. As long as the bullet is leaving a round barrell it doesn't matter it's relation to the action.

.


Ding Ding....give that man a cigar!

Not to mention that rifles rarely have flat spots on them to set up any level devise.

Here's how I do it, not that other ways won't work as well. Shoulder the rifle with the scope mounted, but the ring screws loose. Align the horizontal hair with something you know is consider level(window pane is what I normally use) then start to tighten your screws. Rings like the Weaver style rings will "pull" the scope off to one side if you don't watch for it. 4 screw rings will do the same unless you take them up equally.

[Auk1124]

Hey fellas its a free country and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, if it works for you all then go for it. But I've yet to own a scoped rifle set up my way where it took any noticable amount of fidgeting or awkwardness in the hold to get lined up. And if I owned one where the action and stock where so out of true to each other that I couldn't mount a scope on it without it being canted, I'd re-stock it. To each his own.

[globemountain]

Simple, shoulder the rifle so that the crosshairs are straight. That is after you install the scope with the crosshairs straight.
Multi.....does it make a difference if you're not level headed? What if you can't see straight? Or...what if you're half a bubble off? Seriously.....I level my crosshairs so that they are level when I shoulder my rifle. The sight picture looks natural to me that way. I have no trouble with accuracy or adjustments doing it that way.

[georgia hammer]

gary Reeder
don't worry about it, that's how
Wed Jun 7, 2006 12:30
216.19.36.81



It is a real gimmick that they have to be exactly straight. A barrel is round, it doesn't know if it is canted 10 degrees to one side or perfectly level. When I put a scope on for a customer I set it in the rings, set it level for the way I hold the gun and then hand it to the customer and tell him to see if it level for him and if not then go ahead and make it so. In 99% of the cases, they move it a bit to where it is straight for them. When I get it back to tighten up the screws it is canted either left or right, very seldom straight for the way I hold a gun. Everybody holds a gun differently. Some cant it to one side or other and if you set the crosshairs exactly straight using a bubble level, invariably the customer will move it, especially if he is left handed. I have found thru the years that if I set the crosshairs so that they are almost at 11 o'clock, it will be perfect for a lefty as most of them cant it to the right a bit, making the crosshairs straight for them.
So set it so that it looks level to you and then sight it in at that setting. The special bubble level that you put on the front end of a rifle to make sure it is level is one of the biggest gimmicks I have ever seen. When a big elk or deer runs out in front of you, how many of you make sure and check with that level to see if you are holding the rifle straight before you take your shot. What a crock. I think that gimmick was developed by a liberal democrat.
Years ago I got a handgun (actually several of them) from an older friend of mine who had set several world records with his handguns shooting for the U.S. Army and the olympics. He was getting Alzheimers and he knew it so he gave me several of his guns. One of these was a very special High Standard heavy barrel Olympic Citation, I think the model was. A special model I had never seen before. It had a 2x Hutson scope on it and was set up for "slow fire match with optics" shooting. Joe had set several records with this gun.
When I got it home and took them out of the box to wipe the dust off them I looked at the scope and it was canted to almost 1 o'clock, nowhere near straight for me, but Joe had set all those world records with that pistol. It obviously worked for him.
So set it where it is right for you and don't worry about the small stuff.

[Auk1124]

Here's another one on the effect a canted rifle can have on consistent groups over a variety of ranges:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellf.htm#canting

If you've never browsed that site you ought to, it is pretty cool.

I think a lot of you are convinced it has no effect and that is fine, it may not. But it is a piece of mind thing for me so I'll keep setting em up my way.

[eddiejohn4]

Mount the ring bases,place rifle in cleaning station or any thing that will hold rifle still, then take a small line level ( get at the lumber yard.) place the level on either base plumb and level the rifle. Then set scope on base and unscrew the top cap and place level on the top and level the scope. be careful not to disturb when tightening rings, and wala you have a cant free scope:) If you want you can check in a rifle rest with a laser level.

[eddiejohn4]

All bores are round that is true, as all bores also have a center. as trajectorys curve canting most certaintly effects point of impact. The longer the range the greater the effect canting has on trajectory. At ranges of 400 to 600 meters there will be a deffinite effect.

Go to the range if you can find a 400 meter range and check for your self.:)