Leave it to a Democrat to......

[PhilpotHunter]

Post a news story like this one with a smile:D


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14393611/

sorry mods, couldn't help myself

[grouser68]

Just be prepared for the onslought from the right ol' buddy! You know it's comin' Think I will watch the sparks fly, should be fun!:D I bet I can write at least 4 names that I know will comment, I will pm em' to ya! ;)

[daking]

I don't know if it will be a righ wing brouhaha, but one must question whether the same ruling would have been forthcoming from a federal judge in Kentucky or Missouri or any other state? Why was the suit filed in the Eastern district of Michigan before a judge who is a liberal Carter appointee.

It's a long way from this point to a final decision. You will note that the ACLU lawyerette asked that the order not be put into effect until the appeal is heard. That's a strange twist.

[cobbhunts]

That sucks. I believe it to be a matter of national security and welcome wire tapping. Are you actually against wire tapping PH? I just don't see it as an infringment on our rights if it helps catch some bad guys. I have nothing to hide.

[2speed]

Some people don't have nothing to hide some people do .......

[Pooge]

"I have nothing to hide"... Thats great!

Today it is being used to protect us from "bad guys" tomorrow it is being used for political agenda. What is wrong with having to get a warrant and present reasonable cause for suspicion prior to wire tapping or searching your house, or whatever? Freedom does not come free and I am certiainly not willing to give any of mine away. Of course that must "naturally" mean that I have something to hide right??? lol...

[2speed]

If we have nothing to hide then why get mad about it..........

[kytrapper]

This woman is another winner from the only President worse jobwise but not morally than Clinton. ....Carter.The legacy of these two continue to cause us trouble and threaten our national security and identity. The plane plot was uncovered in England by using these very valuable tools and saved thousands of lives probably. Guys, the liberals either won't or can't get it. The fact one would crow and be proud of this shows the mentality here.

[chadwimc]

The motion was filed in Michigan becuase of the high numbers of moslems in Detroit. Haven't you ever heard Detroit called "New Fallujah" or Dearborn called "Dearbornistan"???

The ruling won't stop the monitoring of our enemies. It was going on before September 11th. It will continue. Too bad the information didn't flow better before we were hit...

What kills me is: The civil liberty types who go to bat for these turds would be the first to have their throats cut. Look at some of those last names...

[PhilpotHunter]

I personally am all for wire tappings of oversee terrorists, terrorists in our boarders, criminals, suspected criminals, and my grandmother if there is a reason. I would just like there to be a check in place to make sure the reason is a legitimate reason, and not politically motivated. Hence, a warrant.
And remember, these warrants can even be gotten AFTER the wire tapping has occured, so it is not a case of missing a chance while getting a warrant. It is only about making sure our honest politicians and goverment workers stay honest.

I don't know if a program like this was used to catch the England attempt, but it wouldn's suprise me if it was. Hell, I would bet money something like this was used. I would also bet that the LAW was followed in the process of abtaining the information.

[cobbhunts]

I personally am all for wire tappings of oversee terrorists, terrorists in our boarders, criminals, suspected criminals, and my grandmother if there is a reason. I would just like there to be a check in place to make sure the reason is a legitimate reason, and not politically motivated. Hence, a warrant.
And remember, these warrants can even be gotten AFTER the wire tapping has occured, so it is not a case of missing a chance while getting a warrant. It is only about making sure our honest politicians and goverment workers stay honest.

I don't know if a program like this was used to catch the England attempt, but it wouldn's suprise me if it was. Hell, I would bet money something like this was used. I would also bet that the LAW was followed in the process of abtaining the information.

Good point. All of them. I just hate to see a disaster because we let down our guard for some political justification of a wrong doing. I personally do not believe people such as ourselves are being listened too. I also believe that there is probable cause to listen to the people that are being tapped. Just my opinion, and I do believe you make good points.

[Pooge]

So, whats wrong with checks and balances? Are warrants really that hard to get? Do you really feel "safer" because of this? What else are you willing to give up now that you are willing to sacrifice privacy? Guns? I dont have a problem with wire tapping at all. But why can it not be done with a little oversight by the judicial system? It seems funny to me that we are willing to give up freedoms yet we claim to be "the land of the free". No single organization should have the sole ability to infringe on the rights of citizens of this country without just cause. Now if you are not a citizen thats a different matter. Tap away whenever and however..... this includes all visa / green card holders, they are not "citizens".

[jarhedhntr]

I personally am all for wire tappings of oversee terrorists, terrorists in our boarders, criminals, suspected criminals, and my grandmother if there is a reason. I would just like there to be a check in place to make sure the reason is a legitimate reason, and not politically motivated. Hence, a warrant.
And remember, these warrants can even be gotten AFTER the wire tapping has occured, so it is not a case of missing a chance while getting a warrant. It is only about making sure our honest politicians and goverment workers stay honest.

I don't know if a program like this was used to catch the England attempt, but it wouldn's suprise me if it was. Hell, I would bet money something like this was used. I would also bet that the LAW was followed in the process of abtaining the information.

That is what we have said from the beginning of this debate last month. But they aren't hearing it, just twisting it.

[grouser68]

I have'nt really formed a concrete decsion whether it's good, or bad.

On the one hand, I don't really care much who hears me talking to the gal I am seeing now. All they will hear is " Why don't we do more together","Why don't you ever come while it's still daylight" ," When will you be back from your fishing trip", etc.

On the other hand, who is actually listening? I don't want Trust Me, Bee, S.pace, Teacher, AKAGrousegunner, Payton, or any of those guys hear me talk over my grouse hunting trip with my hunting partner. Hear us say we are staying at the such n sass lodge, hunting in the ruffed grouse state park, etc.


BTW Kytrapper, I will arm wrestle you over who was, and is the worst Presidents! You say Carter and Clinton. I say Reagan, and the two Bush's!:p

[jarhedhntr]

I BTW Kytrapper, I will arm wrestle you over who was, and is the worst Presidents! You say Carter and Clinton. I say Reagan, and the two Bush's!:p

Whoa there grouser. Was that an opinion you just had? Better watch those things around here, if they aren't like everyone elses your going to the loonie bin with philpot and me.:D

[grouser68]

Whoa there grouser. Was that an opinion you just had? Better watch those things around here, if they aren't like everyone elses your going to the loonie bin with philpot and me.:D

Don't I know it! But don't all of us Marines have to be just a little crazy?:D

[jarhedhntr]

Don't I know it! But don't all of us Marines have to be just a little crazy?:D

It was a job requirement!:D

[Multidigits]

In my opinion, any of you good fellows that think a FBI or NSA agent is going to spends hours listening to you chat with your girlfriend or neighbor or mommy or anyone about something that isn't bent on destruction of innocent civilians, well....I'd say you have serious problems that might require a visit to a physician.

One predictions though, before this threads over with, a couple or three guys will be po'd as usual. In other words, most mainstream Americans want to be protected from foreign scumbags, what ever it takes. They don't want some dyke-looking lawyer messing with their families health and ability to live a long life in spite of numerous nut cases out there intent on doing harm.

[jarhedhntr]

Multi, I only get PO'ed with personal attacks, not with my loose party affiliation.

[Multidigits]

Remember, your the one who called your party loose, not me :D

[daking]

Guys, it's pretty early in the game. A liberal carter judge ruled that a resolution passed by both houses of congress is illegal. Had it gone to another judge, it might have got another opinion. It will soon go to another judge and that judge may agree with our Detroit friend or may disagree and find it constitutional.

At this point, the law needs to be argued before we start theorizing. I am certain that in some instances, the US Govt has the right to do survelliance on people posing a serious threat warrant or not. I have two countervailng expectations. I expect to not have my phone tapped for no good reason. I also expect to be protected from terrorists. I'd be pretty whizzed off if I was blown up by someone that the govt could have caught but for the fact that a judge (maybe this Motor City Madwoman) felt that listening to phone taps is naughty.

What it really calls for is electing presidents that put jurists not activists on the bench.

As for best and worst presidents, inflation never reached 14% under either of the Bushes or Reagan. The Soviet Union imploded under Reagan. Carter gave us 14% inflation, gas lines and 20% interest. Ross Perot was more successful getting his kidnapped employees out of Iran than was the US Military and intelligence under Carter.

But if you want to talk about the very best......Theodore Roosevelt.

[schuyler olt]

Interestingly, the appeal will go to the Sixth Circuit, which is the circuit Kentucky is in, along with Ohio, Michigan and Tennessee. There are fourteen circuit judges and very often a three judge panel will include a district judge sitting by designation. The political bent of the judges is very diverse, so the case could be heard by a very conservative panel or a very liberal one.

Oral arguments will be in Cincinnati. Might be an interesting session to sit in on.

[gwhilikerz]

Wire Tap without a warrant? If that doesn't make your skin crawl just a bit you have already been numbed by the "safety at any cost" rhetoric. What better way to strip you of your freedoms one at a time? I'm not a fan of the aclu, "Carter appointees", or any other "liberal" stuff. But I can't help paraphrasing a well known political figure from history:

"When you give up freedom for security you have neither freedom nor security."
I'm not smart enough to know whether the guy that said that was a liberal or conservative, but I know he was right.

[buckfever]

Can somebody please enlighten me regarding EXACTLY how invasive this surveillance program actually was?

Did they actually "wiretap" anyone without a warrant? I thought they simply reviewed written phone records to look for "patterns" that would suggest a potential link to terrorists?

Weren't the only calls being monitored (and I use that term b/c I don't know whether they actually listened in on anybody) without a warrant were calls b/t the US and overseas?

Wasn't the surveillance limited to phone communications after the phone records had already been screened and red-flagged (i.e. linked to some region with significant terrorist ties)?

I guess I'm just less inclined to be worried that this could be used for "political" (or some other nefarious) purposes given the probable reality that it was extremely limited in scope and breadth.

[aceoky]

So, whats wrong with checks and balances? Are warrants really that hard to get? Do you really feel "safer" because of this?

What else are you willing to give up now that you are willing to sacrifice privacy? Guns? I dont have a problem with wire tapping at all. But why can it not be done with a little oversight by the judicial system? It seems funny to me that we are willing to give up freedoms yet we claim to be "the land of the free". No single organization should have the sole ability to infringe on the rights of citizens of this country without just cause. Now if you are not a citizen thats a different matter. Tap away whenever and however..... this includes all visa / green card holders, they are not "citizens".

Good points!! (as well as Philpot's)......ANY loss of freedoms by those NOT breaking the laws, only can be used as a "stepping stone" to take away yet another one.......NO other possible reason or outcome....history backs this up......sad but true, NO good reason to not get a warrent (especially true since they can get one "after the fact" NOW).......

I'm just simply not convinced that we are in so much danger, than we've ever been in prior to 9/11.....could be that I'm very wrong, but I can't see it, much less any reason to violate the US Constitution (on many fronts) on the basis that just "maybe" we "could be" ......WE have survived this long because of the rights and freedoms we've been allowed, NOT in spite of them imho

IOW , don't try to "fix" it when it's not broken....just my $.02 worth :)

[aceoky]

Wire Tap without a warrant? If that doesn't make your skin crawl just a bit you have already been numbed by the "safety at any cost" rhetoric. What better way to strip you of your freedoms one at a time? I'm not a fan of the aclu, "Carter appointees", or any other "liberal" stuff. But I can't help paraphrasing a well known political figure from history:

"When you give up freedom for security you have neither freedom nor security."
I'm not smart enough to know whether the guy that said that was a liberal or conservative, but I know he was right.

"Twas Ben Franklin fwiw :)

Here is the entire quote (emphasis mine) :D

"They that give up essential freedoms to observe a little temporary safety deserve neither freedom nor safety".

[buckfever]

"Twas Ben Franklin fwiw :)

Here is the entire quote (emphasis mine) :D

"They that give up essential freedoms to observe a little temporary safety deserve neither freedom nor safety".

I guess the bigger issue is whether this program jeopardizes or really intrudes on any of our "essential freedoms"?

[aceoky]

I guess the bigger issue is whether this program jeopardizes or really intrudes on any of our "essential freedoms"?


True........

Guess it just depends on how important or "essential" Freedom of Speech and oh say the Fourth amendments are to each of us....???

Then after the Fourth is NO longer "esseintial" they're one step closer to saying the same about the Second Amendment (oh nevermind No one is or has ever been after that one) :rolleyes:

One never takes out a mighty Oak with one swing of the axe, however IF one keeps "swinging" she will indeed fall eventually......I think that is a point trying to be made......

PROVE the "why' it's needed to be done "outside" of the established laws.....otherwise, agian don't try to "fix" what isn't broken.....simple as that really!

I don't think anyone is agianst being "protected' from terrorists, the problem is ; how do we KNOW that's all that IS being done? Since we don't, it's "wise" to protest established laws being violated...especially without reason for doing so, it's not hard to get a warrent with "probable cause" , never has been, thus many things aren't "adding up".....

Most people understand those "in power" do not have our best interest at heart (just look what they promise in order to get the power, yet fail to even try to deliver on the promises after the fact)......they do however have thier own interests at heart, and since we don't really know what these are (all of them) , it's best to be cautious?????

[grouser68]

In my opinion, any of you good fellows that think a FBI or NSA agent is going to spends hours listening to you chat with your girlfriend or neighbor or mommy or anyone about something that isn't bent on destruction of innocent civilians, well....I'd say you have serious problems that might require a visit to a physician.

One predictions though, before this threads over with, a couple or three guys will be po'd as usual. In other words, most mainstream Americans want to be protected from foreign scumbags, what ever it takes. They don't want some dyke-looking lawyer messing with their families health and ability to live a long life in spite of numerous nut cases out there intent on doing harm.

That was #1 Philpot! :D Lighten up Multi, I was joking! But I really don't want anyone listening when I talk to Mommy!:D

[aceoky]

Another good ole Ben F. quote, that just may fit here.......

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759

:D

Think about it!

[chadwimc]

I can almost guarentee this technology came out of the cold war. Programs were developed that searched for patterns. Patterns were refined to eliminate random, chance hits. Then, after the cold war, this was applied to dope dealers. Now its terrorists. If your grandma lives in the middle east, and you've called her in the last few years, her number has made the "list". If red haired Irish boys had attacked us, I'd expect them to be watched,too...

[aceoky]

I can almost guarentee this technology came out of the cold war. Programs were developed that searched for patterns. Patterns were refined to eliminate random, chance hits. Then, after the cold war, this was applied to dope dealers. Now its terrorists. If your grandma lives in the middle east, and you've called her in the last few years, her number has made the "list". If red haired Irish boys had attacked us, I'd expect them to be watched,too...


Maybe, I'd guess that IS correct, however I don't think anyone has a problem with that (searching of patterns) it's the Illegal Listening of calls without warrents (or probable cause) that violates guaranteed rights....of US Citizens.....for any reason that's "not good" for anyone.......IF there is a good reason to be doing so (as some claim) then why go around the laws???

When/IF we start throwing away the rights so many have fought and died for, we do them and ourselves a great dis-service........imho

[Art]

I know this topic takes on a political feel but I no longer see it that way. To me, it comes down to those who fear our own govt. more than anything else and those who trust the govt. to do whatever it takes to protect the people and the country.

[aceoky]

I guess you're correct there Art; I'd fall into the "latter" category, I have a serious problem trusting those whom I KNOW have lied to us many times in the past (those who hold office are there because of this btw) :D

Remember, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely........

AND that is true no matter which party is after absoloute power as well....

BTW BF, how long has it been since you read the "Patriot Act" (along with all it's "new" add ons?)......might find it interesting ...... ;)

[Multidigits]

I know this topic takes on a political feel but I no longer see it that way. To me, it comes down to those who fear our own govt. more than anything else and those who trust the govt. to do whatever it takes to protect the people and the country.


The term is paranoid.....black helios zooming in!!!!! :eek:

[aceoky]

The term is paranoid.....black helios zooming in!!!!! :eek:


NOt really, it's just questioning the reasoning behind breaking laws that have existed(and worked rather well, as history proves) for a couple Centuries......:cool:

[Art]

NOt really, it's just questioning the reasoning behind breaking laws that have existed(and worked rather well, as history proves) for a couple Centuries......:cool:


Laws need to change with the times. When these laws were created 200+ years ago none of our founding fathers could even imagine the world we live in today. Human bombs, cell phones, email, airplanes, ect...

[aceoky]

Laws need to change with the times. When these laws were created 200+ years ago none of our founding fathers could even imagine the world we live in today. Human bombs, cell phones, email, airplanes, ect...

That is the exact same ideals the anti gun lobby uses to say "back then guns were single shot muzzle loaders, no way could they envision fully automatic machine guns, rocket launchers etc.)......

It's a VERY dangerous thing to even consider changing THE laws that made us what we are (Free).....not to mention(yet again) those who fought and bled and /or died for those very freedoms too many are so eager to let "slip away" so easily........imho

[Art]

That is the exact same ideals the anti gun lobby uses to say "back then guns were single shot muzzle loaders, no way could they envision fully automatic machine guns, rocket launchers etc.)......

It's a VERY dangerous thing to even consider changing THE laws that made us what we are (Free).....not to mention(yet again) those who fought and bled and /or died for those very freedoms too many are so eager to let "slip away" so easily........imho


I guess I just see it as the laws are being slightly altered to protect our freedom. The desired outcome of all this is to keep the American people safe and allow us to be free without living in fear. It might just keep us from having to shed more blood in the future.

If listening to a phone call is going to keep me safe on the next plane I board or the next bus I ride then I'm 100% behind it. I just don't see it as a sneaky way to take my guns.

[aceoky]

Well, first it's much more than simply phone calls, the Fourth Amendment has been for all purposes "thrown away" ........"for the safety and good of all" (or that is the story)......so IF one day YOUR guns are a "threat to National Security" (or mine, or Bob's) don't think for one second this same thing won't bite us all in the ______.........IF it's so "OK" now for "them" then it's just as "OK" for you and me and every US citizen "later on".....just wait and see......so long as so many feel "safe and trusting"......those who want us to be so fearful, as to entrust them with our security, know they have us where they need us to keep taking things away (read freedoms) and over time see what we all are left with.......

It simply amazes me that with it being so very easy to gain information that so many don't really understand how Hitler managed to take away every freedom from the trusting Germans(and remember he was Only Chancellor at this time):eek: ....."for thier own good", to be "restored later" (never was going to happen once he had the power why would he give it up???)......

BTW he did exactly "to the letter" what is being done with the" Patriot Act", call it paranoid, delusional, it doesn't matter.......the truth is, think about what was done then.........compare it to here and now, then realize, while it may not be happeing to that extent yet, the "groundwork" IS being laid to do it whenever they decide to do it.......THAT is a big deal......very real and very possible......ask some Germans why they didn't see it coming......they "trusted the Government and Hitler" to do what "was best for them"........they got screwed now didn't they? :D :D

The point is; whatever anyone wishes or chooses to believe it IS possible to lose every single right, and it won't happen overnight, but a little here , a little there, and always "for our own good"......

Also, it's important that we all realize (no matter which side you may be on with this issue) we have NO idea of exactly what is going on here, only what we're told by the not so trustworthy media, and the same politicians who voted for all of this........IOW, the information we have is not even 10th hand.......one has to wonder what we're NOT being told about??? Maybe nothing, maybe......

Many problems that arise from this, and with NO real proof of why it's needed (does anyone honestly think we're safer by those who are sworn to uphold the US Constitution, breaking that oath? what else would they break IF they have no problem doing that????) Consider that it IS possible there is much more to all of this than it's "simply for our own good", maybe it is, maybe not......

[Xi Bowhunter]

I am all for the wire tapping. I have nothing to hide or worry about. If they catch some terrorists because of it that is great! And if they take down some drug deals and other illegal stuff in the process, even better:D I play by the rules and live a good, honest life, so I have nothing to worry about. Their should be some limits and rules on wiretapping, but with all that has gone on in the past few years, i think it is a necessary precaution. Just my .02

[raktrakr]

I have nothing to hide or worry aboutSomebody does or this wouldnt be an issue

[kevhunter]

All I can say is that since 9/11 there have been no more attacks here in the US and for that I am thankful. Oh,it will happen again sometime and when it does(if Bush is still in office)the same ones that piss and moan about the phone taps will be the first ones too say HE didnt do enough to protect us. And if (one can only hope it doesnt happen) a liberal gets in office then people like me will blame them. Thats just the way it goes.I will also go as far as to say we have too much freedom in the US anyway. When a person can come from another country that they dont want to live in and live here and then run this country down,that is too much freedom.

[grouser68]

I will also go as far as to say we have too much freedom in the US anyway




WOW! And here I sit wanting even more freedom!

[aceoky]

Somebody does or this wouldnt be an issue


That is totaly absurd!

I have nothing to hide, however, I don't see any reason or point in giving up guaranteed rights (the US Constitution does guraantee the very rights that ARE in question here).......especailly since I'm not convinced there is any real good coming from it.......face it, IF they are a threat, there is probable cause for a warrent, WHY don't they want to have to get one (even after the fact).........OR get a warrent to search and seize PRIVATE property???

How many US Soldiars, Saliors and Marines have fought and bled and DIED for these very rights?? IS that not important enough to defend, without needing to have something to "hide"???

Remember all of this, when/if they one day say OUR guns are a "threat to National Security and must be given up"..........it IS really that simple, IF it's fine to violate the US Constitution for reasons of "National Security", well then be prepared for exactly that to happen........

Or one can easily ask the question of the day, why violate the US Constitution at all (of which they are ALL sworn to uphold against all enemies foriegn or domestic)........they have no problem though breaking that oath......so sure let's trust them on everything they simply say with NO oath taken in public :rolleyes:

But it will be for "the good of the Nation as a whole"........you can bet on that, so I guess most will say "if that's what it takes to be safer, fine"........and then ONE more 200+ year law will "bite the dust", nevermind they ARE supposed to be the "highest laws of the land", and seemed to keep us "fine and free" for all of that time......just being paranoid.......:eek:

Give one up, prepare to lose them all, once they start to go away, it will be more and more , faster and faster, WHY do you think it's written? Or written as it is (highest law of the land?) NO reason......hmmm

Guess all of the "threats" to the US only use the phone?? NO meetings in person? Or the "net"..........I'm not buying that, they know they're being listened to, it's "news" for crying out loud!!!!

Don't let anyone fool you into giving up rights and freedoms so easily with NO proof that any of it is keeping any of us any "safer"......I'm not convinced that we are, I do know we're losing rights and freedoms based on the pretense that we are.........sorry it takes much more than them saying so for my being willing to give up rights so many fought/bled and died for........

I guess though they're so honest they'd tell us IF they were up to "no good", no way they'd make us think it's "for our own good"??? Oh but wait, History proves they don't do it that way, History proves how it's done, (and that it can be done this way......in fact a few times)......

Are we really that "scared" to just accept anything we're told by a bunch of proven liars?? (the media and politicians for starters).......consider that......and ask yourselves just how many REALLY "dangerous people" are "plotting over the phones now that it's well known they're going to be heard"........???

Really think about what could be the real purpose.......

[eddiejohn4]

I am a realist when the enemy is in your camp, you have to change tactics, adapt and overcome. we can always after we secure our country from the enemy already here, take our rights back.

Look this is really a no brainer, we must be able to have intelligence that is not always clear cut on who we are after but open ended to allow the kind of data minning necessary to help identify who in this country are not really loyal Muslim americans but rather our enemy.


Being dead is no way to go thru life.:)

[Multidigits]

That is the exact same ideals the anti gun lobby uses to say "back then guns were single shot muzzle loaders, no way could they envision fully automatic machine guns, rocket launchers etc.)......

It's a VERY dangerous thing to even consider changing THE laws that made us what we are (Free).....not to mention(yet again) those who fought and bled and /or died for those very freedoms too many are so eager to let "slip away" so easily........imho

And not to mention those who's freedoms were infringed on back in Sept. 11, 2001. Talk about being screwed, try riding down a 110 Story building or having the window seat on a 747 being flown by a towel head bent on mass destruction.

[Art]

I'm confused. Why is it that some people hate this administration because they feel like they are taking our freedom and will move on to guns at one point YET this administration has actually eased gun laws and has done away with the assualt weapons ban?

My theory is that if you guys think our freedoms are being chipped away one by one right under our noses in a secret domino effect and gun control is an issue near and dear to your heart they you would be well advised to vote republican in the future. If the recent past is nothing else to you, it should at least be a lesson as to what the foucus of each party actually is.

Rupublicans- pro-gun anti-terrorist

Democrats- anti-gun no action against terrorism.

This said, I'm not saying that everyone is perfect but when we're talking guns and terrorism I think it's clear as a bell who's on what side of the fence.

[jarhedhntr]

I'm confused. Why is it that some people hate this administration because they feel like they are taking our freedom and will move on to guns at one point YET this administration has actually eased gun laws and has done away with the assualt weapons ban?

My theory is that if you guys think our freedoms are being chipped away one by one right under our noses in a secret domino effect and gun control is an issue near and dear to your heart they you would be well advised to vote republican in the future. If the recent past is nothing else to you, it should at least be a lesson as to what the foucus of each party actually is.

Rupublicans- pro-gun anti-terrorist

Democrats- anti-gun no action against terrorism.

This said, I'm not saying that everyone is perfect but when we're talking guns and terrorism I think it's clear as a bell who's on what side of the fence.

I didn't know I was anti-gun, huh, learn something new everyday.

I think the point about guns ace was trying to make was that, if the right to bear arms was attacked directly, you would be pissed because it affects you directly. You all say you don't care because you have nothing to hide and the tapping of some strangers phone doesn't affect you directly. I say, like Ace, that it is a little chip off the block of our freedoms. Let them tap all the phones that they want, just let them do it in the manner that has been set. With another branch of the government involved and aware. Checks and Balances folks, one of the main building blocks of our government.

[Multidigits]

I didn't know I was anti-gun, huh, learn something new everyday.

I think the point about guns ace was trying to make was that, if the right to bear arms was attacked directly, you would be pissed because it affects you directly. You all say you don't care because you have nothing to hide and the tapping of some strangers phone doesn't affect you directly. I say, like Ace, that it is a little chip off the block of our freedoms. Let them tap all the phones that they want, just let them do it in the manner that has been set. With another branch of the government involved and aware. Checks and Balances folks, one of the main building blocks of our government.

NOW, it' starting to get more personal because you changed it to yourself as an example. You support people who want more restrictions on gun ownership. Not sure, but the prudent man would consider that your anti-gun for supporting the Democratic party? Explain how voting for an anti-gun platform does not make you one of "them"???

[jarhedhntr]

NOW, it' starting to get more personal because you changed it to yourself as an example. You support people who want more restrictions on gun ownership. Not sure, but the prudent man would consider that your anti-gun for supporting the Democratic party? Explain how voting for an anti-gun platform does not make you one of "them"???

When I vote, I try and pick the one that is going to screw me less. That being said, I have voted on both sides of the aisle and been screwed pretty much equally from both sides. It is impossible to vote for someone that has the exact same views as I do, or you do or anyone else for that matter. As a whole you feel that the Republican party fits your views better, not perfect but better. I actually feel that niether party represents me or the majority of "normal" americans very well. But I am a registered Democrat. Not every view of the Republicans fits you, nor doese every view of the Democrats fit me.

[Multidigits]

When I vote, I try and pick the one that is going to screw me less. That being said, I have voted on both sides of the aisle and been screwed pretty much equally from both sides. It is impossible to vote for someone that has the exact same views as I do, or you do or anyone else for that matter. As a whole you feel that the Republican party fits your views better, not perfect but better. I actually feel that niether party represents me or the majority of "normal" americans very well. But I am a registered Democrat. Not every view of the Republicans fits you, nor doese every view of the Democrats fit me.

Nobody that wants to take my firearms suits me because I'm pro-gun ownership. In other words, if that was part of a candidates slate, he wouldn't get my vote. If both of them on the ticket were anti-gun somehow, neither would get my vote, regardless of the party. I've never voted for someone that wanted to increase gun restrictions that I know of???? Can you say the same?

[jarhedhntr]

Nobody that wants to take my firearms suits me because I'm pro-gun ownership. In other words, if that was part of a candidates slate, he wouldn't get my vote. If both of them on the ticket were anti-gun somehow, neither would get my vote, regardless of the party. I've never voted for someone that wanted to increase gun restrictions that I know of???? Can you say the same?

I haven't voted for many Presidents yet, but that I know of, none of them ran on a gun control ticket. I have voted both sides like I said. We'll discuss it more in October Multi over a cold one. I don't want to stir a hornets nest or hijack a thread.:D

[PhilpotHunter]

And everyone please read what most of us "naysayers" are actually saying.
WE HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH WIRE TAPPINGS

We just want the people doing the wire tappings to do it within the law. Actually research this subject before you get on here and debate it. It isn't about us having something to hide. If for some reason they flag me, and start listening to my phone calls, fine. They will hear me planning a wedding, I could care less. But I would want at some point someone to have gone thru the steps to get a warrant.

Checks and balances

And Multi, some people aren't one issue voters. I have voted both ways, but since we are being honest, most of the times in the past it has been for a Dem. Not because of just one issue though, but because of the whole package.

[gwhilikerz]

Somebody does or this wouldnt be an issue

Whoa up there rak!!!! Just because some of us choose to be vocal about losing our freedom does not mean we have anything to hide. Some of us know that anytime the government does anything "for you own good" then you better check to see who is doing what and to whom.

[jarhedhntr]

Whoa up there rak!!!! Just because some of us choose to be vocal about losing our freedom does not mean we have anything to hide. Some of us know that anytime the government does anything "for you own good" then you better check to see who is doing what and to whom.

Very true. I do this because of the governments "honest" history.

[gwhilikerz]

I am a realist when the enemy is in your camp, you have to change tactics, adapt and overcome. we can always after we secure our country from the enemy already here, take our rights back.

Look this is really a no brainer, we must be able to have intelligence that is not always clear cut on who we are after but open ended to allow the kind of data minning necessary to help identify who in this country are not really loyal Muslim americans but rather our enemy.


Being dead is no way to go thru life.:)

"We can always take back our rights"? Could the Germans take back their rights from Hitler? We won our rights thru battle. Are we supposed to give them up "for our on good" and then have to fight once again to get them back. Heck it's like taxes. They will tell you that a tax is temporary but when they see the money rolling in that "temp" tax is suddenly indispensable and "for our own good". We are so numbed to paying taxes that we just hunch our shoulders and cough it up.

[Multidigits]

Checks and balances

And Multi, some people aren't one issue voters. I have voted both ways, but since we are being honest, most of the times in the past it has been for a Dem. Not because of just one issue though, but because of the whole package.


You may not be a one issue voter, but you can bet that if you vote for someone that is anti-gun (and most Democrats are) then your shooting yourself in the foot. You want checks and balances, don't vote for someone with different beliefs than you have or one that believes in things you know are not good for you. In most cases, that would be a Democrat. I know that's hard to accept, but you can look at the record and see it's true.

as far as this topic, a lot of smart people believe this ruling will be overturned on appeal. I believe that it will as well.

[grouser68]

I agree with Philpot on the voting, vote for the entire package, not just one issue.I am leaning towards a "nay" on the wire tappings. Why? I am thinking " Freedom of privacy" Seems if I want that I have to hermitize myself though. No, I really don't care if anyone hears my blah blah's on the phone, or on here, I have nothing to hide. It's the principle of it all!


Also, BRING BACK ROSS PEROT FOR PRESIDENT! He talked more sense than any politician in years1 I like common sense!:D

[jarhedhntr]

here is my quote for politicians

"common sense is a uncommon virtue"

[grouser68]

here is my quote for politicians

"common sense is a uncommon virtue"

TRUE! Think we can ever find a "John Doe" to speak for us? Someone who knows how government works, and REALLY tries to help the common man? Dang Jarhead......ya think I should run?:D

[jarhedhntr]

No comment:D

[grouser68]

No comment:D


Good answer!:D

[aceoky]

Folks this goes beyone parties or party loyalty.....

From the beginning our great country was set up with checks and balances so no ONE branch had absolute power........ANY attempt to circumvent that reality and why it's important should really be looked at with both eyes wide open.........

Hitler used communisim to "scare" the Germans in order to gain absolute power........they're using terrorisim.........it's not so much the question are they real, but HOW much of a real threat are they to all of us??? Enough to give any one FULL power? I can't accept that, WE didn't get to be this strong by being "scared" so easily , and these very rights , freedoms and liberties got us where we are today, we didn't just happen to be where we are inspite of them......

Art I don't hate the administration, in fact I'm a strong Republican, I just don't have my head so far up that elephant's hind end that I'm blinded by the dung.... :D

AS for the guns and how it fits, remember the UN meeting to disarm the people held recently, newsflash WE are the only Nation where the people are still allowed arms.........nothing came from that one, but it's not going to be the last one.........and any president who signs the Executive order to comply with the UN on that will in effect nullify the 2nd Amendment....
YES that can NOW be done (thanks to the Patriot Act and some "add ons" that most don't know about)......They're much too smart to start there, so they'll take the first and fourth away, a little at a time (as they're doing now, and many seem to support it), then once they start on the 2nd, anyone who "protests" would be an "enemy of the state" (since the 1st Amendment is "dead" you have NO right to question authority)......think it can't happen here? It IS happening right now!! Just more quietly than most would have expected; by this time they won't even need a warrent to come and take your guns (and mine)...........wow!

BTW the Bill of Rights was drafted for the sole purpose of the government to NOT be able to "rule the people with an iron fist", thus it's prudent to ask why if things are really "for your own good", why would anyone try to tear them apart one by one......?????

Everyone has the right to believe we are really in such danger as to actually need to do this, just as I'm free (at least for now) to dispute that.....I've not seen nearly enough actual proof to be convinced, thus those fighting men and women's sacrifices mean far too much for me to simply accept what some government officials say as facts.......

To openly allow them to alter the very laws that have protected us from govenment tyranny for over 200 years with NO regard for our individual rights promised as guarantees, doesn't make any sense, especially when one looks at History as to what HAS taken place where that was allowed.....

The tax analogy was an awesome one, which proves the point, they have no problem telling us why, and "temporary", then saying "we need this as permanent", our freedoms and liberties are much to importatn to treat so lightly imho

It's not about wiretaps, it's about "due process", checks and balances that have been in place for REAL reasons; and WHY the laws being violated exist and have for so long, consider the REAL reasons behind telling us we no longer need protection from our government, after all we needed it for over 200 years, ARE they any less powerful or dangerous? Has Ted Kennedy (for only one example) changed his "stripes"???? I doubt it, don't you??

[buckfever]

Ace - How is the Patriot Act or wiretapping "about due process"?

[PhilpotHunter]

or wiretapping "about due process"?

I can't speak on the Patriot Act being as I don't have enough info on it, but I can on the wiretapping issue.

Wiretapping itself has nothing to do with due process. It is a valuble tool in the fight against terror, and against all crime. The due process comes in when you give one person all the control without anyone watching him. It doesn't take much to get a warrant to tap someones phone. Hell, you can even do it AFTER THE FACT in emergency cases.
The reason you get a warrant is so that somebody watches the watchers. Keeps them in line. Because lets face it, people lie, cheat and use power to there advantage. Hell, as a Dem I'm willing to admit that Clinto lied, cheated, and used his power to his advantage more than once. THEY ALL HAVE!!!! And if you give one of them the ok to do it without any fear of repercussions, then what is stopping him from using it in ways other than what it is designed for? Nothing

Lets face it. Bush is a politician. Politicians lie. And politicians cheat to get ahead, or get there party ahead. Fact of life. Both sides do it.



Here is a thought that might get your attention.....devils advocate if you will. I know it is hard for you guys to see anything wrong with this because your party has control and I can understand that, I would be the same way on certain things I'm sure. But WHAT IF Bush gets these things cleared, and sets the precendence that the president has unchecked power, and THEN A DEM GETS ELECTED AND WALKS IN WITH THAT TYPE OF CONTROL:eek: As a dem, I don't want that to happen. Hell, who knows what the eveil DEM might do:eek: Imagine for one second if an ultra liberal with gun control on his mind got into office, and decided that the NRA was a threat to national security, a terroristic group. So without any say so from anyone, he starts tapping there phones, gets the upper hand on the gun control situation.

Try to look past the here and now, and look at the long term effects this could have.

I'll say it again, wire tap me if you have a reason, just prove your reason before you do it (or after if it is a rush job).

[2speed]

Hey guy Philpot said it all ,Leave it to a democRAT.........

[jarhedhntr]

Hey guy Philpot said it all ,Leave it to a democRAT.........

Well then inserter of snide comments. Give us your vast partisan knowledge on the subject.

[Art]

I think it's a stretch to say that this is a loss of freedom. Hell, if the govt. didn't say anything about it none of us would have ever known. A real attack freedom there, I gotta tell you.

[Multidigits]

Does the Constitution even mention phones and wire tapping devices anywhere??? :confused:

[gwhilikerz]

Terrorists use telephones.... so we need wiretaps.
Terrorists drive Fords........ So we need to track all Fords.
Terrorists use box cutters..... so the guy at the supermarket will just have to tear open those boxes with his nails.
Terrorists put bombs in their shoes and board airplanes.......everyone go barefoot thru the terminal and plane. You will get your shoes back upon leaving the airport (if the security threat isn't RED).
Terrorists hide bombs and weapons in their clothing and board airplanes....... Everybody strip before boarding ( an open back hospital gown will be provided on board).
Terrorists use guns......Everybody give up your guns and turn in any of your friends who may be hiding a gun, they are a terrorist.
Terrorist threat isn't going away..... Your friendly terrorist fighting President is given the title of Czar and we don't need elections because the terrorist will target polling places. It's really "for your own good".
TERRORIST WINS!!! Pres/Czar WINS!!!! GUESS WHO LOST?

[Art]

Terrorists use telephones.... so we need wiretaps.
Terrorists drive Fords........ So we need to track all Fords.
Terrorists use box cutters..... so the guy at the supermarket will just have to tear open those boxes with his nails.
Terrorists put bombs in their shoes and board airplanes.......everyone go barefoot thru the terminal and plane. You will get your shoes back upon leaving the airport (if the security threat isn't RED).
Terrorists hide bombs and weapons in their clothing and board airplanes....... Everybody strip before boarding ( an open back hospital gown will be provided on board).
Terrorists use guns......Everybody give up your guns and turn in any of your friends who may be hiding a gun, they are a terrorist.
Terrorist threat isn't going away..... Your friendly terrorist fighting President is given the title of Czar and we don't need elections because the terrorist will target polling places. It's really "for your own good".
TERRORIST WINS!!! Pres/Czar WINS!!!! GUESS WHO LOST?


All that other stuff can be prevented if we just follow your first rule.:D

[kevhunter]

Guys I really doubt if the evil Bush administration cares what you and your girlfriends or wives are talking about but if they can catch a call coming from Pakistan or somewhere else talking about bombs or some other evil little deed that they maybe planning then Im all for it. Let them fight it out in court to get a warrant and waste time and money and one of those nasty little phone calls gets thru and The Evil Bush would never hear the end of how he didnt do enough to stop it. I no it aint popular but its true.Im willing to give a little now to save a lot in the end.

[chadwimc]

A successful crusade would end a lot of our worries...:rolleyes:

[Duster]

A successful crusade would end a lot of our worries...:rolleyes: One big Nuke dropped in the right place would end a lot of our worrys also...Just one...show those so set against the United States what happens to those who mess with this country. Just be sure and get the message out we have several more on hand and the next one may be headed your way.

[Art]

Only problem is that if we dropped a nuke I'm sure Russia and China would nuke us. The next time a nuke is used it will be WW3.

[Multidigits]

"The next time a nuke is used it will be WW3"

Probably not, it'll be from a terroist that bought one on the open market from Russia or Korea or maybe Pakistan or India. Response will be the same as it has been in other attacks--swift and to the source. Drop one on China, you might be right. I doubt Russia wants any part of us now days. We've defeated there best milatary equipment on the field countless times in the last 60 years. In fact, they would be speaking german now if it wasn't for us.

[Art]

"The next time a nuke is used it will be WW3"

Probably not, it'll be from a terroist that bought one on the open market from Russia or Korea or maybe Pakistan or India. Response will be the same as it has been in other attacks--swift and to the source. Drop one on China, you might be right. I doubt Russia wants any part of us now days. We've defeated there best milatary equipment on the field countless times in the last 60 years. In fact, they would be speaking german now if it wasn't for us.


I still think if a nuke were set off by anyone that it will be the start of WW3. I guess we can only hope that if a terrorist group set one off here that the world would forgive us for turning about 3 entire countries into an ash tray. Here's some food for thought, I wonder if we nuked the middle east if the radiation would make it impossible to extract the oil?

[Multidigits]

No, it'll just make your gas glow inthe dark. Don't worry, be happy....besides, you'll never hear the one that gets you. Hopefully, we'll wiretrap the asshole planning to do the above before it happens and take the proper steps.

[yote hunter]

I still think if a nuke were set off by anyone that it will be the start of WW3. I guess we can only hope that if a terrorist group set one off here that the world would forgive us for turning about 3 entire countries into an ash tray. Here's some food for thought, I wonder if we nuked the middle east if the radiation would make it impossible to extract the oil?
no it will make it easier to find the oil.all that sand turns to glass at high heat.all you have to do then is to look down and you will see all that oil easy.

[grouser68]

Guys irregardless of which news media, or any legislative branch reports, our econemy would'nt allow us to ever strike anyone with nukes, for oil or any other reason! Truth be told we probably sold our nukes to China before we borrowed money from them! Thats a joke guys, please don't get all bent oughta shape!:D

[Multidigits]

Guys irregardless of which news media, or any legislative branch reports, our econemy would'nt allow us to ever strike anyone with nukes, for oil or any other reason! Truth be told we probably sold our nukes to China before we borrowed money from them! Thats a joke guys, please don't get all bent oughta shape!:D

You really need to pay attention to those media reports on our rebust economy. And we'd save money on what we spend on police actions in these rouge states by just taking them out of the picture.

[grouser68]

You really need to pay attention to those media reports on our rebust economy. And we'd save money on what we spend on police actions in these rouge states by just taking them out of the picture.

Can't help myself Multi............Robust economy huh? My brother just had to let his health insurance go. Now, if you have a federal job that keeps getting their raises, or you listen to fox, or the am talk radio, then you see a robust economy! But here in the real world........my brother and I are officially making exactely HALF of what we made when Clinton was in office! When Clinton was in office we turned work away, either that, or work 7 days a week. Now, were begging for work. In the work we do, we used to have at least 10 retail flooring stores calling us constantly,now, four of those are out of business and the others don't call. I will brag here, WE ARE the BEST flooring installers in the area, so the calls are'nt coming because of workmanship!When we call them they say the economy sucks and they simply are not selling! It could be a rural/city difference, but somehow I doubt it. You can call up all statistics from the web you want and it wont change the fact that nothing is selling and the economy is stagnant in my area, and more than likely, your area too!

On another thread Quackster told of how the Ford problems were his problems too. True, Ford screwed themselves by relying on the larger gas guzzeling suv's, I suppose the crystal ball was cloudy for them and they could'nt see the gas was going to go from a buck thirty five in Clintons admin to over three dollars in just 4 to 5 years!Boeing is having to lay off and shut down due to the Military no longer either having the money, or the need for more aircraft. We owe the entire world money, including Red China. Where in this does anyone see a robust economy?

On another thread awhile back some people were saying when they were younger they did'nt have to join the military to make a living. I did'nt either, but right now I am glad I am in and working for them, they pay on a regular basis,the work will never run out, and the economy is in the crapper!Anyone saying any different really needs to open their eyes!

Had to vent, bro just lost his insurance and is begging for work! Anyone buying, or need any floors covered, get in touch, I will pass it to him! Thanks!

[Art]

Most indicators point to a strong economy right now. You can't just say that because you don't have as much work in your area in one particular field or that you don't have health insurance that this points to an overall weak economy.

I make a ton more money than I did in the Clinton years and so does the corporatin that I work for. It's not because of Bush or Clinton though, it's just the nature of business. That's just the way it is, some things thrive while others take a hit. What I'm saying is that I seriously doubt that if a democratic president gets elected that the flooring industry will thrive again and everyone will have health insurace. Sometimes the individual must make things happen for themselves if what they are doing isn't cutting it. I've done it several times and I bet most everyone else has too. To blame govt. will solve nothing.

[grouser68]

Most indicators point to a strong economy right now. You can't just say that because you don't have as much work in your area in one particular field or that you don't have health insurance that this points to an overall weak economy.

I make a ton more money than I did in the Clinton years and so does the corporatin that I work for. It's not because of Bush or Clinton though, it's just the nature of business. That's just the way it is, some things thrive while others take a hit. What I'm saying is that I seriously doubt that if a democratic president gets elected that the flooring industry will thrive again and everyone will have health insurace. Sometimes the individual must make things happen for themselves if what they are doing isn't cutting it. I've done it several times and I bet most everyone else has too. To blame govt. will solve nothing.

Art, at the age of 43 believe me I have done my fair share of adjusting.I used my bro as an example, but I see a failing economy in my area.Not just the flooring industry. I see it when I hear friends and family members talking about how "tight" things are right now. True, it's not as hard on me being single with no kids, no major bills, etc.

My point is, I could give a rats a$$ what media outlet SAYS the economy is robust and growing, it just aint' happenin' here!

Another example: My younger brother works for the postal service in Lexington, he is worked to death, making money hand over fist. He says it's due to the high gas prices. He and his co-workers believe that because the economy is suffering so, people are having to mail items instead of hand delivering! It makes good sense to me.

Art, I am glad your making a mint. You too are in some sort of postal job are'nt you?

It's not just one industry suffering, with my eyes wide open I can see the building in the surrounding areas faltering, retail sales are down,and gas is high as a cats back!

One more thing on the gas. Ok, the unions get a bad rap, but think about this: When the airlines go on strike, the President has the power to MAKE them go back to work. They say to keep the country moving and keep the economy thriving. I think Clinton was the last one to overide that union. My question is, if the President can do this, why in the world can they not put the brakes on the rising gas prices? Seems to me if this were done it would make the price of everything go down, which would leave more money for the consumer, which would afford them to buy more, which in turn would keep all the small buisnessmen and services in work! Does that make any sense to anyone besides me?

[kytrapper]

It's incredible to me when I go to Lexington all the new houses being built there in the last 5 years. Isn't Bath County within driving distance of Lexington? What's happening is trickle down economics and it works. There is a guy in this town who had a very successful heating and air business in the Clinton years. He's going around now poor mouthing Bush for his current hard times. The truth is he has ruined his own business by not doing what he says when he says and then charging way too much when he does come. I hope things get better for you. I think the work is out there you just may have to go to it.

[grouser68]

It's incredible to me when I go to Lexington all the new houses being built there in the last 5 years. Isn't Bath County within driving distance of Lexington? What's happening is trickle down economics and it works. There is a guy in this town who had a very successful heating and air business in the Clinton years. He's going around now poor mouthing Bush for his current hard times. The truth is he has ruined his own business by not doing what he says when he says and then charging way too much when he does come. I hope things get better for you. I think the work is out there you just may have to go to it.


Thats funny Trap! I can drive down any road and see new construction! I have "went to" the work for years! Been to all the surrounding states, and every corner of this state save Paducah. Myself and bro are NOT lazy people,nor can we magically make work appear if it's simply not there! We have several builders we work for, from Ashland to Lexington, if they tell us they are'nt building and have no work, plain and simple, theres no work!

While driving around Lexington seeing a new subdivision being built is NOT a sign that the economy nor the housing industry is growing. Lexington will always be building and growing, albeit slow right now I can bet! Also, I saw a second cousin at the family reunion yesterday, he is a member of the Lexington Builders Ass. or some such, he says the building is way down. I have in the past worked in Lexington, I don't mind the drive either. But, the gas is soooooo high, my prices to even get there can't compare with the installers in town. Like Art said, adjust! Well, I don't mind that, but should I have to give up my home, my way of life, and move to town? I really should'nt have to do that.I don't mind adjusting, just don't want to change my lifestyle over a faltering economy. If it came to that I would have to give up hunting and fishing and I would probably move back to California again.

As for the guy that ruined his own business, thats not the case here.

[grouser68]

I think the work is out there you just may have to go to it



Think is the keyword in that sentence. As for my bro, he is working 3 days a week and burning the phone lines and roads up looking for work the other 4. He KNOWS how much work is out there, and it's not much! BTW, he was in Middletown Ohio 2 days last week working.

I gotta hit the road for North Dakota guys. I just hate to see my brother and others in such a shape, and trying sooooooo hard! I just had to vent about the economy. And no stat on any media outlet, or seeing a house being built is going to put any meat on his table, period! I know lots on here don't agree with me on the economy, but when it's up close and personal and in your face, you can see it plainly.Quoting media, saying"go look for work, it's out there.....I think", or turning it around to blame my bro and others for not being able to find work and keep there insurance and other basic needs up does not apply in this case. That dog just WILL NOT hunt!

Guys, I have vented enough, time to hit the road! Have a good one, see ya in two weeks!

[Multidigits]

Can't help myself Multi............Robust economy huh? My brother just had to let his health insurance go. Now, if you have a federal job that keeps getting their raises, or you listen to fox, or the am talk radio, then you see a robust economy! But here in the real world........my brother and I are officially making exactely HALF of what we made when Clinton was in office! When Clinton was in office we turned work away, either that, or work 7 days a week. Now, were begging for work. In the work we do, we used to have at least 10 retail flooring stores calling us constantly,now, four of those are out of business and the others don't call. I will brag here, WE ARE the BEST flooring installers in the area, so the calls are'nt coming because of workmanship!When we call them they say the economy sucks and they simply are not selling! It could be a rural/city difference, but somehow I doubt it. You can call up all statistics from the web you want and it wont change the fact that nothing is selling and the economy is stagnant in my area, and more than likely, your area too!

On another thread Quackster told of how the Ford problems were his problems too. True, Ford screwed themselves by relying on the larger gas guzzeling suv's, I suppose the crystal ball was cloudy for them and they could'nt see the gas was going to go from a buck thirty five in Clintons admin to over three dollars in just 4 to 5 years!Boeing is having to lay off and shut down due to the Military no longer either having the money, or the need for more aircraft. We owe the entire world money, including Red China. Where in this does anyone see a robust economy?

On another thread awhile back some people were saying when they were younger they did'nt have to join the military to make a living. I did'nt either, but right now I am glad I am in and working for them, they pay on a regular basis,the work will never run out, and the economy is in the crapper!Anyone saying any different really needs to open their eyes!

Had to vent, bro just lost his insurance and is begging for work! Anyone buying, or need any floors covered, get in touch, I will pass it to him! Thanks!

Sounds like you and the bro need a new job with benefits. There's plenty of them out there to choose from. I just got done laying some carpet and put in a bunch of hard wood flooring. Did it myself and save a bundle. Not sure why you can't stay busy.....might need to reevaluate the situation???

Look outside the next time you get a chance. See gobs of people walking down the road???? OR are they driving big expensive new vehicles and buying gas like it's going out of style??? Yeah, Ford made some mistakes. They'll adjust and stay in business, just like the other car makers.

[grouser68]

Sounds like you and the bro need a new job with benefits. There's plenty of them out there to choose from. I just got done laying some carpet and put in a bunch of hard wood flooring. Did it myself and save a bundle. Not sure why you can't stay busy.....might need to reevaluate the situation???

Look outside the next time you get a chance. See gobs of people walking down the road???? OR are they driving big expensive new vehicles and buying gas like it's going out of style??? Yeah, Ford made some mistakes. They'll adjust and stay in business, just like the other car makers.

Multi, I knew my words could be twisted and turned to make it sound like me and my brother were just too lazy to work! So be it! Glad you saved money laying your own flooring, thats what alot of people are doing these days because they can't afford a profesional flooring installer!Thats part of the reason we can't "stay busy"!

Very easy to say switch your career at your mid forties, a totally different animal actually doing it!

A little footnote about me and my family. Not one person in my family has ever been on any kind of govt. funding. Whether it be food stamps, welfare, or even disability! I was offered 20% disability when discharged from the Corps, I declined it! At the time, I did'nt know a thing about govt. or how it worked. I thought all govt. funds went into one big pot, and I was'nt about to take any money away from my Grandparents on their social security,or any other people like them.Still, knowing better now.......to this day I will not go and apply for disability, call it stubborn pride! My hearing does'nt affect my work, so why do it? When my Mother was raising 3 teenage boys on her own things got tough, she was on the verge of getting govt. funds, we dug down, all 3 of us went to work and we made it without any help. I say the economy sucks......but my family and friends will make it! And, without any help from the govt. So, no need to try and tell me and mine what we need to do to survive, in the end.......WE WILL! BTW, yes I do blame the Bush admin. just like I can blame the Carter admin. when we were younger and struggling!

[Wildcat]

I was going to stay out of this because I knew the ruling would be overturned but now it's come to the US economy I've got to come in.

"One more thing on the gas. Ok, the unions get a bad rap, but think about this: When the airlines go on strike, the President has the power to MAKE them go back to work. They say to keep the country moving and keep the economy thriving. I think Clinton was the last one to overide that union. My question is, if the President can do this, why in the world can they not put the brakes on the rising gas prices? Seems to me if this were done it would make the price of everything go down, which would leave more money for the consumer, which would afford them to buy more, which in turn would keep all the small buisnessmen and services in work! Does that make any sense to anyone besides me?"

It''s been done and proven to fail in a free market economy. Nixon put in price controls during the Oil Embargo and the first thing that happen was unemployment skyrocketed putting millions of Americans out of work. After the price controls were dropped prices reached for the sky,the economy was send into a service recession, the Dow Jones fell 962 to 822, a 45% deline over the next two years.

The United States is under a Free Market, Free Enterprise economy. Putting in govt price controls is wrong. It you do that then you also have to put in wage controls, if you limit prices then you limit wages.

Forget about the media. Go to the very soruce of all the economy info. Look at Wall Street, the stock market is IN RECORD NUMBERS, NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE SEEN SUCH HIGH NUMBERS. Look at the market history, the market is always AHEAD of all the other economy numbers. If the stock market tanks then all other economy numbers follow them down and when the stock numbers raise the other numbers follow them up.

The US unemployment rate is at 4.8 %, just .2% less than full employment.

The booming housing market has cooled off thanks to higher interest rates.

The Fed which controls the interest rates is independment of the President and Congress, raises the interest rates to help cool down a hot economy. If a economy gets too hot it runs away and gets out of control, we've learned that all though history.

No mater who is in office or how the economy is overall there will always be some people out of work or their business going down, that is a fact any bank will tell you.

Want to talk about hunting?? Look at the major guide services, they are booked solid with record number of hunters. Where are the hunters getting the money???

[grouser68]

I was going to stay out of this because I knew the ruling would be overturned but now it's come to the US economy I've got to come in.

"One more thing on the gas. Ok, the unions get a bad rap, but think about this: When the airlines go on strike, the President has the power to MAKE them go back to work. They say to keep the country moving and keep the economy thriving. I think Clinton was the last one to overide that union. My question is, if the President can do this, why in the world can they not put the brakes on the rising gas prices? Seems to me if this were done it would make the price of everything go down, which would leave more money for the consumer, which would afford them to buy more, which in turn would keep all the small buisnessmen and services in work! Does that make any sense to anyone besides me?"

It''s been done and proven to fail in a free market economy. Nixon put in price controls during the Oil Embargo and the first thing that happen was unemployment skyrocketed putting millions of Americans out of work. After the price controls were dropped prices reached for the sky,the economy was send into a service recession, the Dow Jones fell 962 to 822, a 45% deline over the next two years.

The United States is under a Free Market, Free Enterprise economy. Putting in govt price controls is wrong. It you do that then you also have to put in wage controls, if you limit prices then you limit wages.

Forget about the media. Go to the very soruce of all the economy info. Look at Wall Street, the stock market is IN RECORD NUMBERS, NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE SEEN SUCH HIGH NUMBERS. Look at the market history, the market is always AHEAD of all the other economy numbers. If the stock market tanks then all other economy numbers follow them down and when the stock numbers raise the other numbers follow them up.

The US unemployment rate is at 4.8 %, just .2% less than full employment.

The booming housing market has cooled off thanks to higher interest rates.

The Fed which controls the interest rates is independment of the President and Congress, raises the interest rates to help cool down a hot economy. If a economy gets too hot it runs away and gets out of control, we've learned that all though history.

No mater who is in office or how the economy is overall there will always be some people out of work or their business going down, that is a fact any bank will tell you.

Want to talk about hunting?? Look at the major guide services, they are booked solid with record number of hunters. Where are the hunters getting the money???

:D Doggonit, I love this site! Because of this one thread I am over 3 hours overdue in leaving for North Dakota:D I really gotta go though! No time to banter all your points Wildcat, save this: I will reemphasize my first point.....The stats and numbers mean nothing here in the real world! In the real world, irregardless of stats, people are out of work and struggling due to the "robust" economy! Unemployment numbers tell a twisted tale,yes, amybe more people are working, but the money they are making cannot compete with the higher prices! The cost of living has sky rocketed, imho, mainly due to the higher gas prices. Go out and try and buy a tomato today, I bet you will pay close to 4 dollars a pound for them!

I can well afford hunting and fishing trips, I am single, no major bills, and it's my lifestyle! Maybe the rest are like me too, who knows!

Anyway, love to stay and banter, but gotta go! Hope to have some fishing pic's of Devils Lake when I return! Have a good one guys and gals!:)

[Wildcat]

I've got news for you, we ALL live in the real world. AND NOT ALL HUNTERS ARE LIKE YOU, THEY HAVE FAMILIES AND OTHER RESPONSIBLIITIES. Yet they can afford to book those guided hunting trips.

As for the economy numbers all business people worth their salt know them and understand them, they also know how to go by them. AND THEY LIVE AND WORK THEIR BUSINESS IN THE REAL WORLD.


Try this on, the IRS is reporting ever with the major tax cuts there is MORE REVENUE COMING IN THAN BEFORE. That only means one thing, people and business are making more money and are reporting it.

[Multidigits]

Multi, I knew my words could be twisted and turned to make it sound like me and my brother were just too lazy to work! So be it! Glad you saved money laying your own flooring, thats what alot of people are doing these days because they can't afford a profesional flooring installer!Thats part of the reason we can't "stay busy"!

Very easy to say switch your career at your mid forties, a totally different animal actually doing it!

A little footnote about me and my family. Not one person in my family has ever been on any kind of govt. funding. Whether it be food stamps, welfare, or even disability! I was offered 20% disability when discharged from the Corps, I declined it! At the time, I did'nt know a thing about govt. or how it worked. I thought all govt. funds went into one big pot, and I was'nt about to take any money away from my Grandparents on their social security,or any other people like them.Still, knowing better now.......to this day I will not go and apply for disability, call it stubborn pride! My hearing does'nt affect my work, so why do it? When my Mother was raising 3 teenage boys on her own things got tough, she was on the verge of getting govt. funds, we dug down, all 3 of us went to work and we made it without any help. I say the economy sucks......but my family and friends will make it! And, without any help from the govt. So, no need to try and tell me and mine what we need to do to survive, in the end.......WE WILL! BTW, yes I do blame the Bush admin. just like I can blame the Carter admin. when we were younger and struggling!

It's not Bush's fault you can't find a job, pal. End of story. Your 40, I'm 54 and will need one this time next year. Already turning down offers because the timing's not right. Open your eyes. It's not a function of government to make sure you have a job. Be willing to work and find one.

http://www.ajb.dni.us/

[buckfever]

It's not Bush's fault you can't find a job, pal. End of story. Your 40, I'm 54 and will need one this time next year. Already turning down offers because the timing's not right. Open your eyes. It's not a function of government to make sure you have a job. Be willing to work and find one.

http://www.ajb.dni.us/

Hope this helps. . . .

http://www.sdmcdonalds.com/job_desc.lasso#crew

[daking]

In Buck's spirit of helping, maybe this will also be enlightening. All of these jobs are in the Louisville metro area and pay in excess of 40K. For the math-challenged, that's over $19.20 per hour.


http://www.greaterlouisvilleworks.com/jobsearch.asp

[kytrapper]

In my area there's all kinds of work. The problem is people have gotten to where they can "draw" more than they can make working due to liberal handout programs we all pay for. They in turn have more kids because the more they have the more they "draw". We are in the third generation of this now in eastern Kentucky. Once pride is sold out all is gone as far as ever finding honest work for honest pay. I know gas is high but as far as the economy goes it hasn't seemed to slow many people down as cars are running around all day everywhere. Fast food joints are busier than ever. Wal-mart's parking lot is full. I also saw lot's of help wanted signs in Lexington. As far as sticking with your profession goes, many people have had to change their career in their life. Sign painters were killed with the computer graphics and cutters for instance. It's not the governments job to take care of everyone for everything that goes wrong in their life. Good luck to you.

[jarhedhntr]

In my area there's all kinds of work. The problem is people have gotten to where they can "draw" more than they can make working due to liberal handout programs we all pay for. They in turn have more kids because the more they have the more they "draw". We are in the third generation of this now in eastern Kentucky. Once pride is sold out all is gone as far as ever finding honest work for honest pay. I know gas is high but as far as the economy goes it hasn't seemed to slow many people down as cars are running around all day everywhere. Fast food joints are busier than ever. Wal-mart's parking lot is full. I also saw lot's of help wanted signs in Lexington. As far as sticking with your profession goes, many people have had to change their career in their life. Sign painters were killed with the computer graphics and cutters for instance. It's not the governments job to take care of everyone for everything that goes wrong in their life. Good luck to you.


OMG,
I agree. I think I am going to be sick.:D

[Art]

I'm not exactly sure where Grouser68 lives, but I know it's in eastern KY. Whoever told you that building and home sales were down in Lexington is FOS. I am still a member of LBAR and NAR and I see the numbers all the time. The work is in Lexington for sure. Homes and office buildings are not being built fast enough.

I can find people who are falling are hard times if I look, and I always have been able to (even in the glorious Clinton years):D . However, it appears to me that those people are greatly outnumbered in this area. The process of industry leaving rural areas for urban areas has been happening since the 1800's. Things are never going to be as great financially for small towns and rural unpopulated counties as they will for more industrialized areas with more population. To sum it up, if the economy is bad and people are hurting, it sure as hell ain't visible anywhere within Fayette Co. or the surrounding areas.

[kevhunter]

Most of the people who want too work are working and thats the way it has always been. I saw people when I went on vacation that were asking us for our spare change when there were help wanted signs in several stores within sight of us. They probably werent high paying jobs but I would rather work for minimum wage than beg for spare change while sitting on a bench listening to my cd player. A lot of americans today have grown fat and lazy while enjoying all of the governments handouts.I see it every day in my line of work.

[grouser68]

It's not Bush's fault you can't find a job, pal. End of story. Your 40, I'm 54 and will need one this time next year. Already turning down offers because the timing's not right. Open your eyes. It's not a function of government to make sure you have a job. Be willing to work and find one.

http://www.ajb.dni.us/


Multi, you really need to check the facts before you go to running your suck!
First- I have two jobs and never once said I was looking for one!
Second- I.......am NOT your"PAL'! BUB!
Third- I am 43!
Fourth-Seems my eyes are the ONLY ones open in my area!
Fifth- I NEVER once said it was the govt's duty to find me a job!
Sixth-Your last sentence there.......Don't EVER speak to me like that again............EVER!

Multi, not one blessed thing you said was right! Seems you have a tendancy for your mouth to write checks your a$$ can't cover! How hard is it to go back and check to see what I said?

What I actually said was: My brother had to let his insurance go because there was'nt enough work to keep it, and that it was due to the stagnant economy in MY AREA! I also asked if anyone had any flooring they needed installed to let me know and I would pass it on to him!

Ok, heres where it gets interesting guys! I am ready to back my statements up! Since it's apparent some don't believe me when I return from North Dakota I will send all you living in a robust economy a list of phone numbers of no less than 15 contractors and a dozen flooring business' to get it straight from the horses mouth! So, until then I would appriciate that if you really don't know anything about the statements I made, which it seems most posters don't...........do the homework before you speak!

Oh, Art you need to speak with Larry at the LHBA, it's apparent you have missed a few years of meetings! Matter of fact, I don't ever remember seeing you there, ata all!

[Art]

Oh, Art you need to speak with Larry at the LHBA, it's apparent you have missed a few years of meetings! Matter of fact, I don't ever remember seeing you there, ata all!


I don't need to go. I was in the business and many of my friends still are. I hear all the time about another chunk of farmland that has just been bought by a builder to put up another 200 homes. I also hear how home sales in Lexington set a new record every year. If that's not enough I live and work here. I drive around the city all day everyday and I can tell you that if there is anything tanking in the home and building business that it's not even close to being obvious. It's the same way in NKY, that place changes daily.

My point is that I'm not denying that in your area things may not be that great BUT I assume that things have NEVER been that great or people would be moving there one after another. I don't doubt what you say but what I disagree with is the fact that you are taking what is happening in your own small town and implying that it's the same all over the state.

Take my word for it, if the economy was in the gutter as you say, the liberal media would be riding that wave all the way to the shore. We'd be getting pounded by story after story of people on hard times every night on the news.

[grouser68]

I don't need to go. I was in the business and many of my friends still are. I hear all the time about another chunk of farmland that has just been bought by a builder to put up another 200 homes. I also hear how home sales in Lexington set a new record every year. If that's not enough I live and work here. I drive around the city all day everyday and I can tell you that if there is anything tanking in the home and building business that it's not even close to being obvious. It's the same way in NKY, that place changes daily.

My point is that I'm not denying that in your area things may not be that great BUT I assume that things have NEVER been that great or people would be moving there one after another. I don't doubt what you say but what I disagree with is the fact that you are taking what is happening in your own small town and implying that it's the same all over the state.

Take my word for it, if the economy was in the gutter as you say, the liberal media would be riding that wave all the way to the shore. We'd be getting pounded by story after story of people on hard times every night on the news.

Art, if you are refering to "my small town" as the place where I work, then my small town ecompasses the 64 corridor from Lexington to Ashland! Also, as I stated in my first post on the economy.........why believe the media, why believe the stats, when the proof is right before your eyes? Due to being in Arizona for three weeks, then here in North Dakota I have seen the "liberal" media a total of one time in a month! And the media reported that Ford and Boeing were going down the tubes, for lack of a better word, and the gas was at a new high! So, it does kinda sound like they are all over this to me.

[Art]

Art, if you are refering to "my small town" as the place where I work, then my small town ecompasses the 64 corridor from Lexington to Ashland! Also, as I stated in my first post on the economy.........why believe the media, why believe the stats, when the proof is right before your eyes? Due to being in Arizona for three weeks, then here in North Dakota I have seen the "liberal" media a total of one time in a month! And the media reported that Ford and Boeing were going down the tubes, for lack of a better word, and the gas was at a new high! So, it does kinda sound like they are all over this to me.


Exactly. The proof IS right before my eyes, I see it everyday. Just because Ford is tanking and gas is high has little to do with politics. We've been round and round about this on this board and it basically comes down to the Bush haters blame whatever they can on him. He does deserve some blame but there are certain things which he has no control over which he takes the blame for as well.... Oh well, gotta go to work!

[grouser68]

Exactly. The proof IS right before my eyes, I see it everyday. Just because Ford is tanking and gas is high has little to do with politics. We've been round and round about this on this board and it basically comes down to the Bush haters blame whatever they can on him. He does deserve some blame but there are certain things which he has no control over which he takes the blame for as well.... Oh well, gotta go to work!

Yea, I gotta get in uniform myself! I will pm you those phone numbers when I get home! Seems the only way to convince some is to show them the barn is actually black! True, I did blame Bush! I will retract and say this, Bush is'nt the entire problem with the sagging economy, but he is a very large part of it!

[daking]

Actually, the price of gas has retreated about 18 percent in Louisville in the last three weeks.


Ford and GM are losing sales but Toyota, Honda and a number of other companies have picked up what they lost. Perhaps if Ford could put out a car more exciting than the 500 and the Taurus, they'd have some buyers.

Boeing is feeling the pinch of an oversupplied aircraft market. The life of planes is quite long. What's happening to them is what happened to Jeffboat in the barge business. Orders come like crazy, they build like crazy and when the supply is sufficient, people stop ordering. It's interesting that McDonnell Douglass is not in the same dire straits.

Delta and Northwest airlines are at the verge of collapse. Southwest, ATA and Jet Blue are making money. Guess which airlines are the most efficient?

Citing examples of individual businesses going tubular does little to give us a picture of the economy in general. Same with communities. Flint Michigan is in the tank. Bowling Green is thriving. Different areas, different industries, different outlooks on life.

It reminds me of an old saying....when my neighbor is out of work, it's a recession. When I'm out of work, it's a depression.

The poet once said "a man's home is where he prospers". In that light, if the economic outlook is bleak where you live and the continued employment potential where you live is weak, then maybe it's time to look towards places that value your skill set and have robust economies. Like where you live? Don't want to move? Part of the cost of your decision to stay put is the economic uncertainty. It's the price you pay for living where you want to live, just like high crime in Chicago and high housing costs in San Francisco are part of the deal of living there.

Finally and once again....the condition of the economy is seldom capable of being judged by one's own situation. You gotta look at the whole thing.

[grouser68]

Actually, the price of gas has retreated about 18 percent in Louisville in the last three weeks.


Ford and GM are losing sales but Toyota, Honda and a number of other companies have picked up what they lost. Perhaps if Ford could put out a car more exciting than the 500 and the Taurus, they'd have some buyers.

Boeing is feeling the pinch of an oversupplied aircraft market. The life of planes is quite long. What's happening to them is what happened to Jeffboat in the barge business. Orders come like crazy, they build like crazy and when the supply is sufficient, people stop ordering. It's interesting that McDonnell Douglass is not in the same dire straits.

Delta and Northwest airlines are at the verge of collapse. Southwest, ATA and Jet Blue are making money. Guess which airlines are the most efficient?

Citing examples of individual businesses going tubular does little to give us a picture of the economy in general. Same with communities. Flint Michigan is in the tank. Bowling Green is thriving. Different areas, different industries, different outlooks on life.

It reminds me of an old saying....when my neighbor is out of work, it's a recession. When I'm out of work, it's a depression.

The poet once said "a man's home is where he prospers". In that light, if the economic outlook is bleak where you live and the continued employment potential where you live is weak, then maybe it's time to look towards places that value your skill set and have robust economies. Like where you live? Don't want to move? Part of the cost of your decision to stay put is the economic uncertainty. It's the price you pay for living where you want to live, just like high crime in Chicago and high housing costs in San Francisco are part of the deal of living there.

Finally and once again....the condition of the economy is seldom capable of being judged by one's own situation. You gotta look at the whole thing.

Very true Daking! Smart post! Thats what I have said all along............in my area!Only thing is, it's my brother and others in the area suffering, not me.I am fortunate enough to have 2 jobs, one of them is the military and I have been in uniform most of this year with no end in sight as to when that will end. Good post Daking,I hope it actually gets read and understood, unlike most of mine!

[kytrapper]

Well,
I don't know grouser personally or his finances but I find it incredible that one can't look at Lexington and admit that building is skyrocketing. I see log trucks and lumber trucks everyewhere in SE Kentucky. Terry hit it about on the head. I think people, not necessarily grouser, have a tendency to blame someone else for their tough times and just give up because they can't keep doing what they always did to earn a living. In this area they use excuses to let the government take care of them the rest of thier life. Sometimes it's the old " can't find work" but the real reason is they don't look too hard for work. Again, I'm not saying this is you grouser, just people in my area. If I was in business and the work wasn't there I would assume I have two options. Find another job in a slightly different line of work or get on the draw. Grouser said he had pride so that takes away the second option. I remember when we first went into Iraq it was " so we could have cheap oil". Now it's Bush's fault we have high oil? I don't blame the president for high oil prices nor will I give him credit if it comes back down. I kind of combined two subjects but I think that way sometimes. We are all just little blips and tend to think our ideas and opinions are worth more than perhaps they really are. I just can't believe someone thinks housing is down in Lexington.

[jarhedhntr]

I don't know the market well but I do know that just because houses are being built and even sold, doesn't mean that all is well. 98% of the houses being built and sold are overpriced cracker boxes. If people keep buying overpriced houses that don't hold there sale value, we are going to see a huge influx in Lexington.

[grouser68]

Well,
I don't know grouser personally or his finances but I find it incredible that one can't look at Lexington and admit that building is skyrocketing. I see log trucks and lumber trucks everyewhere in SE Kentucky. Terry hit it about on the head. I think people, not necessarily grouser, have a tendency to blame someone else for their tough times and just give up because they can't keep doing what they always did to earn a living. In this area they use excuses to let the government take care of them the rest of thier life. Sometimes it's the old " can't find work" but the real reason is they don't look too hard for work. Again, I'm not saying this is you grouser, just people in my area. If I was in business and the work wasn't there I would assume I have two options. Find another job in a slightly different line of work or get on the draw. Grouser said he had pride so that takes away the second option. I remember when we first went into Iraq it was " so we could have cheap oil". Now it's Bush's fault we have high oil? I don't blame the president for high oil prices nor will I give him credit if it comes back down. I kind of combined two subjects but I think that way sometimes. We are all just little blips and tend to think our ideas and opinions are worth more than perhaps they really are. I just can't believe someone thinks housing is down in Lexington.

Believe this or not KYTRAPPER, I actually agree with most of what you had to say! But, as to the growth in Lexington, or anywhere else in my area, I can and will give you the phone numbers to many contractors in Lexington that will tell you different. Merely driving through a city and seeing building going on does'nt mean there is booming growth.Large towns and city's will always be building something somewhere!

Oh, I will reemphasize, I am not looking for a job, I have 2 already. I would love to get rid of one of them so I can get more hunting and fishing in!:D

[kytrapper]

Ok,
I certainly don't know how housing and development works. I just assumed that if they're being built someone is buying them. I'm heading up there right now and where I turn in houses start at 149,000 and around the curve they're 249,000. They're building a big Lowe's off exit 110 also so I thought they must plan on selling a lot of lumber and plywood.

[jarhedhntr]

I know the area, those houses on Winchester Rd. are customs. I am talking more of the ones you see off the interstate, near hamburg. These are marketed towards middle class first time home buyers with little to know down payment and 100% financing available. These houses are actually not holding there value well and are being financed 100%. The drop in value is going to put alot of people upside down in value on a house. The housing market is going full speed ahead right now, but it will start very soon to die out IMO.

[PhilpotHunter]

Am I the only person that has been reading the articles about the SAGGING housing market nationally ( I believe around 7%) and the HUGE increase in bankruptcies, in large part due to people buying more house than they can afford on dumb ass loans?
Is that the goverments fault? Nope. But it sure doesn't mean the economy is still great either does it?
Is the economy horrible? Nope. But almost every industry analyist out there is saying that the economy is coming up on a stagnant time. Hell, not coming up on, but already starting. So for everyone that always says Dems beleive what they want but have no facts, why is it you guys refuse to accept facts ( and Art, I wish you would step out of this argument and actually read the hypocricy you have typed, it is amazing:eek: , I'm a little taken aback since you usually aren't like that)

The economy is not tanking, the sky is not falling. But by God, it isn't a rose garden either. I've been saying all along that all the high prices, rising interest rates, and inflation were going to stall this economy, and now that it has you guys refuse to even believe it? Who is being political now?

And whoever pointed out how high the DOW was a few posts back (I've tried to back out of this thread, couldn't help myself though) should also point out what the cost of living was when it was lower, and more importantly, the average between inflation and the growth of the stock market. Its easy to say "Look at the DOW, its higher than it has ever been" but anyone with much financial knowledge would understand that your point goes with the whole inflation theory. To read it like you typed it, anyone in the stock market right now would be enjoying 60% average returns yearly on there investments, which isn't the case.

Grouser, Multi purposly say's things meant to piss you off. When he feels he can't convince you his way is the only right way, he makes a snide comment hoping you will flare up. Most of the time I flare up too. In honesty, he isn't all that bad a guy in person, his ass just overloads his mouth pretty often:D

[jarhedhntr]

Am I the only person that has been reading the articles about the SAGGING housing market nationally ( I believe around 7%) and the HUGE increase in bankruptcies, in large part due to people buying more house than they can afford on dumb ass loans?
Is that the goverments fault? Nope. But it sure doesn't mean the economy is still great either does it?
Is the economy horrible? Nope. But almost every industry analyist out there is saying that the economy is coming up on a stagnant time. Hell, not coming up on, but already starting. So for everyone that always says Dems beleive what they want but have no facts, why is it you guys refuse to accept facts ( and Art, I wish you would step out of this argument and actually read the hypocricy you have typed, it is amazing:eek: , I'm a little taken aback since you usually aren't like that)

The economy is not tanking, the sky is not falling. But by God, it isn't a rose garden either. I've been saying all along that all the high prices, rising interest rates, and inflation were going to stall this economy, and now that it has you guys refuse to even believe it? Who is being political now?

And whoever pointed out how high the DOW was a few posts back (I've tried to back out of this thread, couldn't help myself though) should also point out what the cost of living was when it was lower, and more importantly, the average between inflation and the growth of the stock market. Its easy to say "Look at the DOW, its higher than it has ever been" but anyone with much financial knowledge would understand that your point goes with the whole inflation theory. To read it like you typed it, anyone in the stock market right now would be enjoying 60% average returns yearly on there investments, which isn't the case.

Grouser, Multi purposly say's things meant to piss you off. When he feels he can't convince you his way is the only right way, he makes a snide comment hoping you will flare up. Most of the time I flare up too. In honesty, he isn't all that bad a guy in person, his ass just overloads his mouth pretty often:D

Well put. Especially the part about Multi. :D Just kidding Tom.

[Wildcat]

Good post Daking. The difference between your post and others is what you said at the end.;

"Finally and once again....the condition of the economy is seldom capable of being judged by one's own situation. You gotta look at the whole thing."

The only way to do that is to either travel as fast as possible across the country to see it your self OR check offical statistics. The ones that understand and use them will profit over time and move on while the ones that don't will lose, cry and blame someone else. Always been that way and always will be.

[grouser68]

Am I the only person that has been reading the articles about the SAGGING housing market nationally ( I believe around 7%) and the HUGE increase in bankruptcies, in large part due to people buying more house than they can afford on dumb ass loans?
Is that the goverments fault? Nope. But it sure doesn't mean the economy is still great either does it?
Is the economy horrible? Nope. But almost every industry analyist out there is saying that the economy is coming up on a stagnant time. Hell, not coming up on, but already starting. So for everyone that always says Dems beleive what they want but have no facts, why is it you guys refuse to accept facts ( and Art, I wish you would step out of this argument and actually read the hypocricy you have typed, it is amazing:eek: , I'm a little taken aback since you usually aren't like that)

The economy is not tanking, the sky is not falling. But by God, it isn't a rose garden either. I've been saying all along that all the high prices, rising interest rates, and inflation were going to stall this economy, and now that it has you guys refuse to even believe it? Who is being political now?

And whoever pointed out how high the DOW was a few posts back (I've tried to back out of this thread, couldn't help myself though) should also point out what the cost of living was when it was lower, and more importantly, the average between inflation and the growth of the stock market. Its easy to say "Look at the DOW, its higher than it has ever been" but anyone with much financial knowledge would understand that your point goes with the whole inflation theory. To read it like you typed it, anyone in the stock market right now would be enjoying 60% average returns yearly on there investments, which isn't the case.

Grouser, Multi purposly say's things meant to piss you off. When he feels he can't convince you his way is the only right way, he makes a snide comment hoping you will flare up. Most of the time I flare up too. In honesty, he isn't all that bad a guy in person, his ass just overloads his mouth pretty often:D

Very good post Philpot! Very informative! Yeah, I can understand about Multi. Some people just make very good suck runners!:D I can't believe ol' Art though, knowing builders ergo knowing the building industry! Anyway, I am in uniform now and have to report, may be awhile before I make it back on! Going fishing after I report!:D It's an admin. day thank goodness!

[PhilpotHunter]

Ok,
I certainly don't know how housing and development works. I just assumed that if they're being built someone is buying them. I'm heading up there right now and where I turn in houses start at 149,000 and around the curve they're 249,000. They're building a big Lowe's off exit 110 also so I thought they must plan on selling a lot of lumber and plywood.

We are at the end of a huge housing boom. Lowes just reported lower earnings this past quarter than expected, and are cutting there projected year end earnings due to the slump in new houses being built. ( http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=5307425&nav=menu34_22_12_2 )

Yes, for the past few years housing has exploded, but it is a fact that it is slumping nationally. If it hasn't started to slow in Lexington, it will. And for the guys that "assume" they know because they know people in the industry (but come to find out they haven't talked to any of them:eek: ) I would suggest you take Grouser's advice and call a couple of contractors. Where else can you hear the truth from.
In Owensboro the new house market has been flying high for a few years now. New houses and neighborhoods everywhere. And then something funny happened. Almost a complety screeching halt on new construction, and the Jagoe and Thompson home neighborhoods have people moving out left and right. Can't afford what they bought, taking a loss and moving into apartments.
As a whole, Kentucky is one of the only states that posted a rise in thew home sales this last quarter, but only of 1.2%. Way down. If you want to believe that it won't keep falling, go ahead, just remember you can only argue that for a few more months, and when the new numbers come out proving you wrong (and they will) you;ll have to eat your crow:D

Here is some interesting reading if you actually want to see some facts. If not, and you are only looking to fight, I'm not interested.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003218688_toll23.html

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2006/aug/16/the-partys-over-more-evidence-arrives-showing-is/

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/timesleader/business/15156880.htm?source=rss&channel=timesleader_business


So I'll say it one more time, the economy is not doing all that bad (4% increase this year so far) but it isn't as rosey as you guys would have us to believe. And whether you like it or not, it is going to start slumping more. Why do you think the feds raised the rates? To SLOW down the economy. IT WORKED Goal accomplished.

[Wildcat]

Philpothunter,
You just posted how little you understand of the stock market and how it works either that or you are trying to post misinformantion to try to discredit my post.

As for your theory about the cost of living and high stock markets, sorry but history proves you wrong. Look at the Great Depression, stocks tanked and the cost of living zoomed though the roof. Look at the Carter years, low stock prices and high cost of living, same during the Ford years and the first year of Reagan. I could go on and on all day but it's there in the history of the stock market.

If you was to re-read my posts you would see I said a couple times the Fed raises interest rates to COOL DOWN A HOT ECONOMY. Now the Fed has stopped raising the rates for now, they believe it has cooled down enough but they will raise them again if it starts to heat up again.

As for those people that bought several houses they were trying to make some money off a hot market, no different than people who buy commodoties like oil and gold. Some make it and some fail.

[PhilpotHunter]

Actually, I understand the stock market pretty well. I think I just didn't word it right for you to get my point. Let me try again....

Made up numbers to try and make you see the theory......

Dow Jones at 8000 points. Cost of rent in a 2 bedroom 350.

Dow Jones over 11,000 points. Cost of rent in a 2 bedroom 750.


My point was that yes, the Dow is higher than it has ever been, but so is the cost of everything. Just like it will be next year, and the year after that. To say the Dow is in the 11,000 area because the economy is doing great isn't all true. Yes, the stocks have been doing good, but by comparing 8,000 points to 11,000 points and giving the credit to the economy in WHOLE is misleading.

Not sure I worded it right?

[daking]

The housing market has retreated nationally. The large retreats like Lee/Collier counties in Florida, Clark county in Nevada, Maricopa county in Arizona are places where housing was super hot. People were buying homes for 400K preconstruction, driving signs in the ground when the carpet was being laid and selling them for 550. THAT kind of market will fall as fast as it rises and is figured into the average the same way that Kentucky figures in with its 5% appreciation and usually modest growth of 4-5%. The figures for places like Kansas also figure in where real estate is not nearly as robust. Figures that show strong pullbacks are created in the same manner in which the figures for robust growth are assembled.

The farther you get into rural Kentucky, the more limited economic growth will be. Not to pick on anyone, but let's look at far Eastern Kentucky. It's not very hospitible to farming because of its topography. It's not very likely to become a manufacturing center because it's a long way from where the goods would go to market or to the next manufacturer to be added to his product. The wealth of Eastern Kentucky was largely based on resources, the two major ones being timber and coal. Coal has had its ups and downs. Present energy costs will likely see some strength in the coal market, especially as more utilities see the cost effectiveness of using coal with modern smokestack cleaning technology. Timber will always have some demand, but the tree farming practices of the south and in Canada have created a quick turnaround for a lot of lumber. With resource-based income being sluggish, areas that depend on that sort of business will be adversely affected. That's why there was such a strong push on by many to get the tax credits for conservation easements and long-term wildlife management areas. The primary beneficiary of these credits would be coal miners in E. KY. The third resource of which Eastern Kentucky has an abundance is wildlife and nature. Although people won't pay much to truck manufactured goods from E KY if they can truck 'em in from somewhere cheaper, folks will drive a long way to see critters in their habitat. They'll spend a ton of money to hunt in places they've never hunted before or to chase critters they've never chased before. The best thing that could happen to E KY is to develop and exploit this resource. Then, it would be a destination.

A man's home is where he prospers. The trick is to figure out how to prosper where you are. Lacking that, it's time to go.

[PhilpotHunter]

And since we are on the stock market here....a little advice for any investors;) BLUE CHIPS

now is a good time to go with the industry leading blue chip stocks. They are way under priced, and set to make a come back over the next few years due to the slowed economy

[jarhedhntr]

Philpothunter,
You just posted how little you understand of the stock market and how it works either that or you are trying to post misinformantion to try to discredit my post.

As for your theory about the cost of living and high stock markets, sorry but history proves you wrong. Look at the Great Depression, stocks tanked and the cost of living zoomed though the roof. Look at the Carter years, low stock prices and high cost of living, same during the Ford years and the first year of Reagan. I could go on and on all day but it's there in the history of the stock market.

If you was to re-read my posts you would see I said a couple times the Fed raises interest rates to COOL DOWN A HOT ECONOMY. Now the Fed has stopped raising the rates for now, they believe it has cooled down enough but they will raise them again if it starts to heat up again.

As for those people that bought several houses they were trying to make some money off a hot market, no different than people who buy commodoties like oil and gold. Some make it and some fail.

So your saying that the cost of living is down? I would have to disagree with you. And I'm not just talking about gas prices, although are one of the driving forces behind it. Everything is more expensive. I have recieved a cost of living raise every year, a big one as a matter of fact, which is determined by government agencies that monitor cost of living across the US. Just because stocks might take a dip or a rise, does not mean that COL is going to change directions.

[daking]

If you're going to play the market, buy index funds. These funds track right along with the entire market. True, we've had corrections in 87 and then in the early nineties, but if you'd have bought an index fund in 1977 when the dow was at 600, where would you be now? Has the cost of living gone up fifty-fold since 1977?

[Wildcat]

Actually, I understand the stock market pretty well. I think I just didn't word it right for you to get my point. Let me try again....

Made up numbers to try and make you see the theory......

Dow Jones at 8000 points. Cost of rent in a 2 bedroom 350.

Dow Jones over 11,000 points. Cost of rent in a 2 bedroom 750.


My point was that yes, the Dow is higher than it has ever been, but so is the cost of everything. Just like it will be next year, and the year after that. To say the Dow is in the 11,000 area because the economy is doing great isn't all true. Yes, the stocks have been doing good, but by comparing 8,000 points to 11,000 points and giving the credit to the economy in WHOLE is misleading.

Not sure I worded it right?

LOL!!

Sorry but rent is determined by supply and demand by the rent market, I should know since I own several rental houses. it has NOTHING to do with the stock market at all. If I can put a house on the rent market and rent it right way then the market will bear that price if I can't rent it soon then I have to lower my prices to try to get renters in.


As for a real stock tip, BUY Ford and GM now. Right now they are underpriced as is, that means in market speak they can be sold off for more than the stock is selling for now. BUT that's not the reason I say buy now, Ford and GM will NOT go under, they will come back strong in the next couple years and the ones that buy now will see a good return on their money. Right now they are cheap and you will MAKE money.

[daking]

You're probably right. Who wouldn't have liked to been smart enough to buy Chrysler warrants for a quarter in 1978? We'd all be rich if we'd have put up a few hundred bucks back then.

[PhilpotHunter]

Sorry but rent is determined by supply and demand by the rent market, I should know since I own several rental houses. it has NOTHING to do with the stock market at all. If I can put a house on the rent market and rent it right way then the market will bear that price if I can't rent it soon then I have to lower my prices to try to get renters in.

Your not following me, or your choosing not to. I understand that rent has nothing to do with the stock market.

Last time. As simple as I can get it.

Everything goes up over time. Cost goes up, as do stocks.


How is that for Barney explanation. I think you understand what I'm saying, your just choosing to twist it

[PhilpotHunter]

Oh yeah, GE is a good one to get into right now also.

[Wildcat]

"My point was that yes, the Dow is higher than it has ever been, but so is the cost of everything. Just like it will be next year, and the year after that. To say the Dow is in the 11,000 area because the economy is doing great isn't all true. Yes, the stocks have been doing good, but by comparing 8,000 points to 11,000 points and giving the credit to the economy in WHOLE is misleading."

WRONG!!!

There is NO guarantee that the stock market will be higher next year or ever the year after that, NONE!!! No stock broker will ever tell anyone that, in fact that is grounds for a lawsuit against the stockbroker.

If you did know about stocks you would know that the Dow was LOWER in 2001 than in 2000. You would also know that since 1940 the Dow has end the year LOWER than the year before 16 times.

And your going around saying they will end up higher next year and the next?? Then you know something nobody else knows.

YES the the economy gets credit for the the stocks raising, there is no other way to do it. If the stock prices were falling would you say it was a bad economy??????? Do you ever know what the Dow Jones is???

[Wildcat]

So your saying that the cost of living is down? I would have to disagree with you. And I'm not just talking about gas prices, although are one of the driving forces behind it. Everything is more expensive. I have recieved a cost of living raise every year, a big one as a matter of fact, which is determined by government agencies that monitor cost of living across the US. Just because stocks might take a dip or a rise, does not mean that COL is going to change directions.

No I'm not, YOU are saying that, not me.

No where did I ever say once the cost of living is down, if I did then please show everyone where it's at or please don't put words in my posts.

[Wildcat]

Oh yeah, GE is a good one to get into right now also.


Sorry but that's a bad stock IMO. There are much better stocks out there with a better deal. GE will go up in the long run but I can do much better in less time.

[Art]

Lots of stuff going on here. There is no doubt that the hot housing market is cooling off nationally right now, it had to. There's a big difference in "cooling off" and "tanked".

Lexington's housing market has never followed national trends and has been consistantly strong over the years, even in tough economic times. There may be numbers that suggest it is not as strong as the past year, I don't know. All I know is that there are more homes and businesses being built right now then I have ever seen in my 30 years in Lexington.

Seems to me that this is a glass half empty/ half full arguement. Far left liberals are going to make it sound as gloomy as possible just because Bush is in office right now. We all know if Kerry was in office and everything was exactly the same the birds would be singing every morning and life would be all puppies and kittens for them.

I think the more moderate democrats and republicans see right down the middle on this issue. For the most part the economy is strong, not perfect, but overall it's pretty good. I personally think it's much easier to see reality when you are not looking at EVERYTHING through anti-Bush blinders. Just my .02

[6.5x55swedish]

I moved from a Blue state to a Red state. Now my vote really counts:D

[kevhunter]

Lots of stuff going on here. There is no doubt that the hot housing market is cooling off nationally right now, it had to. There's a big difference in "cooling off" and "tanked".

Lexington's housing market has never followed national trends and has been consistantly strong over the years, even in tough economic times. There may be numbers that suggest it is not as strong as the past year, I don't know. All I know is that there are more homes and businesses being built right now then I have ever seen in my 30 years in Lexington.

Seems to me that this is a glass half empty/ half full arguement. Far left liberals are going to make it sound as gloomy as possible just because Bush is in office right now. We all know if Kerry was in office and everything was exactly the same the birds would be singing every morning and life would be all puppies and kittens for them.

I think the more moderate democrats and republicans see right down the middle on this issue. For the most part the economy is strong, not perfect, but overall it's pretty good. I personally think it's much easier to see reality when you are not looking at EVERYTHING through anti-Bush blinders. Just my .02
Excellent post.How is it possible that Bush could be responsible for all the bad in the world? I will never figure that one out.As much as I disliked Bill Clinton there were a few things that werent his fault when he was in office.I cant think of any right now but Im sure there were a few.

[kytrapper]

Well boys,
Look at the front page of today's Herald Leader. Five years of growth, one month of cooling off. You guys talking about being experts on the stock market ( I'm not) , if this were a stock it would still be an overall winner.

[PhilpotHunter]

WRONG!!!

There is NO guarantee that the stock market will be higher next year or ever the year after that, NONE!!! No stock broker will ever tell anyone that, in fact that is grounds for a lawsuit against the stockbroker.

If you did know about stocks you would know that the Dow was LOWER in 2001 than in 2000. You would also know that since 1940 the Dow has end the year LOWER than the year before 16 times.

And your going around saying they will end up higher next year and the next?? Then you know something nobody else knows.

YES the the economy gets credit for the the stocks raising, there is no other way to do it. If the stock prices were falling would you say it was a bad economy??????? Do you ever know what the Dow Jones is???

Since its inception the stock market has risen on average about 12% per year. Of course there are ups and downs. You know exactly what I'm talking abut, and you know it to be true. You are just choosing to play stupid word games in the hope that someone with out knowledge of the market will buy into your misleading crap. Good luck with that.

Your comment on GE clears one thing up for me. You might have some knowledge of the financial world, and I have no doubt you probably consider yourself "savy", but your style of investing won't win out over mine in the long run. Its a time proven fact, and it has been proven over and over again. But I wish you luck with your endevors.

[PhilpotHunter]

A republican says it is good, but not great on all sides and he gets an "excellent post". i say it atleast 3 times during this thread and all I get is crap. Who is looking threw political blinders now?:confused:

[PhilpotHunter]

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?Feed=OBR&Date=20060824&ID=5968990

Just like I have been saying. Its not as great as some would have you believe, but it aint the end of the world either.

[Multidigits]

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?Feed=OBR&Date=20060824&ID=5968990

Just like I have been saying. Its not as great as some would have you believe, but it aint the end of the world either.


"suggests the economy is cooling off" FROM what???? cooling off from what you said it was, as in the pits or cooling off from a high period??? Seems like a natural cycle to me?

[PhilpotHunter]

cooling off from what you said it was, as in the pits

Please find anywhere that I have said the economy is in the pits? You don't read the whole posts very well, if you did you would notice that this Dem IS NOT thrashing the economy.

[Wildcat]

Your comment on GE clears one thing up for me. You might have some knowledge of the financial world, and I have no doubt you probably consider yourself "savy", but your style of investing won't win out over mine in the long run. Its a time proven fact, and it has been proven over and over again. But I wish you luck with your endevors.


LOL!!!!

My style will not win out over yours in the long run???? LOL!!!

I've got news for you, I've won for years. In fact I retired 4 years ago at 50 thanks to my investments, I don't owe anybody a thin dime and I've done nothing but enjoy life ever since. I will not see my first SS check for another 11-14 years depending when I want to draw it. My style of investing has let me travel the world and gone on several guided hunting trips the past few years. Good luck to you, I hope your style lets you catch up and maybe you can retire around 50.

[PhilpotHunter]

I hope your style lets you catch up and maybe you can retire around 50.

No catching up needed, we are just at different stages (your old:D ). Don't worry about me though, I'm well on my way to retiring at 50.

[kevhunter]

A republican says it is good, but not great on all sides and he gets an "excellent post". i say it atleast 3 times during this thread and all I get is crap. Who is looking threw political blinders now?:confused:

Im sorry,it wasnt my intention to leave you out and I will also give you an excellent post. However if I were wearing political blinders I would be looking THROUGH them not THREW them.I dont mind if you are critical of me but please try to use the correct words.Thanks and have a great day.

[eddiejohn4]

Judge Anna diggs taylor has a long history of far left ideology rulings. This and the fact that the lawyer that brought the suit is an arab american who has represented terrorists for a living doe's not make me feel easy .

The NSA program is needed at this time because of the diversity in the way our enemy conducts himself. We need to learn how to think outside the box, as they know how we behave and have exploited this by using our media (which was all to happy to oblige). We can always put provisions on this program to protect our freedoms after we secure this country from the enemy that already exists in our country . Make no mistake that we will all see things that will be of historical significance, I just hope not biblical.

I know how this program bothers everyone ,but we need to adapt and overcome our enemys before they do the same to us. Some will think that Im rambling and promoting fear, but I have to tell you that this conflict has been in the making for thirty years and you are seeing the beginning of the third world war.

Some of you have served in the armed forces and should be familar with the concept of changing tactics to engage the enemy, this is what we are doing now and need to continue, we need patience as the war in Iraq will require us to have. This is something that is not easily accomplished with the deaths of our brave,But we need to continue to show that we are focused in our mission. This is the only way to win a war, giving in to every bad thing that happens is not the light at the end of the tunnel but will be our downfall in the end .

[Art]

You guys, lay off Philpot. He's a moderate and he knows the difference between chicken salad and chicken sh**. I have no problem with any democrate so long as they are in touch with reality -politically speaking.:D

[PhilpotHunter]

I would be looking THROUGH them not THREW them.I dont mind if you are critical of me but please try to use the correct words.Thanks and have a great day.

Don't make me call TurkeyHunter to tell you how we spell on this side of the state:D