The Challenge...Again

[trust me]

Last year I started practicing my offhand shooting and even posted a picture of a target with about a 9 or 10 inch grouping. I was trying to get back down to an honest 6" spread like I could do in my prime. Everybody laughed and made fun of me, but nobody else offered to post a photo of their own target.

This isn't bench shooting; this is standing on your hind legs and controlling your breathing, your target picture, your trigger pull, everything. Sandbags and bench rests make snipers out of all of us...but what can we do all on our own?

I took advantage of a day off and an overcast sky to get out and burn some ammo. Here's a 10 shot group fired at 100 yards with open sights, from a standing position with no sling.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/254/254371/pages/861487/rugertarget.jpg

I am tickled to death because that's about all I can do with a scoped 22 right now. I didn't put a ruler to it but it looks like 7 or 7.5 inches center to center.

Last year Ace agreed with me that nobody shoots offhand enough to get really good anymore, but I couldn't get him to post a target either. Anybody else brave enough to try it? And post pictures of the proof?

[Eagle85]

Darned good for a .22 at 100-yds. I'll take you up on it, but first I gotta practice up on the broad side of my barn. :)

Shooting offhand like that is what we all should be doing (after we get the scope sighted in, of course) because last time I checked, I don't have any sand bags or a bench rest in my stand! Each time I go to the range, I always try to roll off a few rounds in a position more close to how I'll be hunting... standing, sitting, lying down, etc. You never know the position you'll be in when that biggun shows up, so I try to at least "think" I could take the shot.

Maybe this weekend I'll toss up a (big) target and see if I can at least hit it once at 100-yds :D

[GSP]

I shoot a lot with iron sights, off hand at 25 yds. We run the LKS Sruirrel Rifle competition with those rules. No peeps, no optics, sporting .22s only.
Just plain ole, pure shooting. I think it is a must to learn proper rifle shooting.
How about posting up 5 shot groups at 25 yds? I'll try shooting some in the next two weeks.

[trust me]

How about posting up 5 shot groups at 25 yds? I'll try shooting some in the next two weeks.

Will do. Let's get this started.

[GSP]

Will do. Let's get this started.

Will do, no peeps, no optics, sporting .22s only, no rest, no slings, "hind legs only".:cool:


Not meaning to Hi-jack here Trustme, but here is some info speaking about shooting off your hind legs.
The League of Ky Sportsmen Squirrel Rifle competition is going on through the end of October. This is a "postal" style competition following the aboue rules that is held for youth up to the age of 21. Would be glad to help any groups get involved, we supply the targets, no charge.

[trust me]

GSP,
What rifles are the hotshots fielding? I bought the boy a CZ 452 Ultra and I'm about to steal it back from him. 28" inch barrel sticks way out there, almost feels like cheating. Would the barrel length be allowed as sporting? Them squirrels last year with the extra holes in the head sure didn't think so.:D

Only trouble I have is that with the sights set for their lowest elevation, 22 shorts are still hitting an inch or so above point of aim. I have to "shoot low, Sheriff" on everything out to about 40 yards.

[GSP]

The prefered rifle of choice is the OLD single-shot, bolt actions. I have a couple of old Steven's and Winchesters that I let them use. We have a collection of newer Marlins in Youth models, etc.
I have found that when working with large groups, the single-shots are the best. It teaches patience, shot "thought" and after they pull the trigger, they are holding a stick.

Also, those old "Hog" rifles (common name for the rifles I own, they were owned to kill hogs with every November) are still some of the most dead nuts rifles I know.

[shogan]

the cz 452 has a single shot clip adapter.

Ok,

I'm in but I only have one old dinged up marlin semi-auto that has no scope

So I'll post 5 shot groups

.22 scoped free hand 100 yards.

.22 no scope POS gun 25 yards

And in case there are any takers I'll post .75 yards .177 pellet rifle scoped

All on the free hand back legs only

[ecmbowhunter]

I am waiting for the cheater using his front legs...:D

[Marmot_Militia]

Just plain ole, pure shooting. I think it is a must to learn proper rifle shooting.

I don't quite understand the distain for shooting disciplines that use a rest. Why not enjoy shooting your rifle how, when, and where you prefer. There is no "perfect" position, just the opportunity to use different methods to achieve different group sizes at different ranges. Shooting from a rest requires proper technique, it's just different than offhand.

The concern I have is that people are comparing group sizes from two different disciplines and this is not the way to do it. Just because you can achieve a smaller group by benchresting doesn't mean it's not proper. Best if we just compare the targets within their own sports and not worry so much about how each other supports their rifle.

BTW, I'm in on this when I get the time.


Just shoot.

MM

[Auk1124]

Iron sights only pretty much knocks me out - with my eyes, I can't see 25 FEET without a Hubble Telescope bolted on the darn thing...

[Quickdraw Limpsalot]

I don't think "trust me" is condemning anyone for shooting from a rest so much as just saying that folks don't practice offhand as much as they used to. The benefit is from being able to do BOTH proficiently.

If there's a tree to rest against while I'm in the woods, you better believe I'm going to take advantage of it... but if there isn't, I like to think I'll be ok taking the shot offhand if I need to.

At least that's how I read it... correct me if I'm wrong.
I may have to see what the little Henry will do this weekend.

[trust me]

Quickdraw, you are correct. At no point did I or anyone else say anything derogatory about shooting from a rest or the people that do it. I did it myself for a couple hours Wed. morning, afterall.

It's just that for many people, that's all they do. Shooting off a rest is designed to take out much of the human error variable. If I've got a really accurate bench gun, there's a good chance you could pick it up and do equally as well. Benching is a test of the gun, moreso than the gunner.

In an offhand contest, you can take a great offhand shooter and equip him with an average gun, and he'll whip the daylights out of an average shooter equipped with a super-accurate gun.

Let's not make this thread into something it wasn't intended to be.

[Marmot_Militia]

My comment wasn't to "trustme" but rather what GSP called "pure shooting". I just don't think the term can be applied to any one discipline.

I like shooting offhand, benched, IFP, with both pistols and rifles. Afterall the armament has to be proven accurate for it to be any use to me.

Sorry for getting my panties in a bundle.

I think I'll take up octopus fishing instead.


MM

[quackrstackr]

I'm out. :(

The only rifles I own without a scope are a .177 pellet rifle and a .50 Hawken.

Heck, even two of my pistols have optics on them. :D

[trust me]

I'm kinda like Auk; i got optics permanently hanging on my face and I'd be Mr. Magoo without them. But even with specs i can still get iron sights to work. Not much longer though. My close-up is getting as bad as my far-off. Being half-blind sucks.

I wonder how a hunter-gatherer survived way back when if he couldn't distinguish between a grizzly bear and a hickory tree.:eek:

[jarhedhntr]

I'm kinda like Auk; i got optics permanently hanging on my face and I'd be Mr. Magoo without them. But even with specs i can still get iron sights to work. Not much longer though. My close-up is getting as bad as my far-off. Being half-blind sucks.

I wonder how a hunter-gatherer survived way back when if he couldn't distinguish between a grizzly bear and a hickory tree.:eek:

Your glasses :cool: didn't look that thick.:D

[quackrstackr]

I wonder how a hunter-gatherer survived way back when if he couldn't distinguish between a grizzly bear and a hickory tree.:eek:

Natural selection at work. ;)

[rick243]

I wonder how a hunter-gatherer survived way back when if he couldn't distinguish between a grizzly bear and a hickory tree.:eek:

Wasn't the average life-span around 24 years back then?? :confused:

[shogan]

how about we we just enter our targets and say if we are shooting with scope or not.

For example if Iron sights aim at 25 yards.

If scoped aim at 100 yards

Shoot what you got and lets compare.

I spent an hour tonight in the rain shooting off hand and off bench at 25-75 yards just couldn't set out ay paper due to the storms.

[GSP]

My comment wasn't to "trustme" but rather what GSP called "pure shooting". I just don't think the term can be applied to any one discipline.

I like shooting offhand, benched, IFP, with both pistols and rifles. Afterall the armament has to be proven accurate for it to be any use to me.

Sorry for getting my panties in a bundle.

I think I'll take up octopus fishing instead.


MM

Sorry I got your your panties wadded up MM.
Didn't mean nothing by the statement and I didn't copywrite it either.
All the things I mentioned in the post were styles we do with youth. As I thought we were talking about here, it is more about the style (offhand) being a lost art/style form of shooting. I have nothing against bench (all my riles are checked there) and yes I will hug a tree in a heartbeat while hunting.

[Marmot_Militia]

It is a humbling experience for many to shoot offhand, myself included.

I agree that we should all shoot, offhand, what we've got, and mark it on the target with the distance shot. Scoped, pistol, iron sites, peeps, whatever. Let's just get some off hand shooting targets posted here. Regardless of equipment.

MM

[trust me]

I had some better groups on the orange stickers, but this was all I could do on a regulation target. Offhand, 25 yds, open sights, no sling.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/254/254371/pages/861487/offhand8-13-06.jpg

[GSP]

That's good shootin Trustme. It will be Saturday before I will be able to do any.

[shogan]

Ok I wanted to get something up so this is air rifle .177 pellet scoped. I don't think these are my best flying pellets (ecsp at long range) so I'm going to show the base line (sitting at a table rifle steadied on my hand) and then free hand.

25 yards not free hand scoped
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/kyhogan/DSC02291.jpg

25 yards free hand scoped
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/kyhogan/DSC02292.jpg

75 yards not free hand scoped (I cant believe them pellets are that bad I might reshoot)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/kyhogan/DSC02287.jpg

75 yards free hand scoped
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/kyhogan/DSC02288.jpg

[Auk1124]

Nice airgunning there - 75 yards is a hellacious shot with an airgun, scoped or not.

[shogan]

Thanks but I feel it should be doing better.

I went to rifle range today with the new .22.

Way to much trigger pull and wind blowing to be paper posting so I'll be looking at a quick modification and then a second try.

[raktrakr]

I've got one of them "hog killers", an old non serial numbered singleshot Marlin. After you load the shell you have to cock the bolt. I shot some yesterday,on a rest of course. I'll give it a try tomorrow off-hand

[shogan]

Ok my new trigger adjustment is on it's way for the CZ 452.

Along with a new scope. See what you have done to me. I was all done buying scopes and then I found the BSA contender 4-16 by 50 with AO from 10-300 (it's almost to good to put on the .22). Yeah I know this challenge was suppose to move us away from sniping but see it's the challenge of paper that makes me want to be perfect when I'm just plinking tin cans or silohette I just want to hit it; so I benchrest then I free hand etc etc. But give me some paper and I want to make a clover leaf.

Next step find better ammo. The federal copper plated is good but I find that 3 group well and 2 fly. Maybe me but it happens way to consistently. And some online testing by others showed the same. Not bad for 8.95 for 550 but for punching paper I must find better.

By the way this is what pushes the whole benchresting sniping deal. The theory first I must find the best rifle, scope, and ammo combination. Then if I have a little spread on free hand I can't blame anyone but myself.

More will come. Today I took out some small nuisance birds at 80 yards with the air rifle.

[trust me]

Here's the latest effort; it was my best target of the night, certainly not the only target though. I think I can see some improvement, but then I throw a couple clean out into the white.:( I seem to shoot a whole lot better on the orange stickers from Outers, but they don't have scoring rings.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/254/254371/pages/861487/offhand8-15-06.jpg

If i could keep 5 well in the black, I'd be happy. But it may be that my eyes won't allow it. I can see some improvement in my trigger control but the trigger has some creep I'd never noticed before. Might try to take care of that soon.

I broke the bolt down on the Ruger the other day...man, what a mess! Oil and crap all over, don't know how it was firing. After that experience, I advise anybody to disassemble their bolt every few years. I found the instructions for mine on the internet; some of them can be fairly complex.

[shogan]

oh no scoring rings are we keeping score?

Yeah just as soon as I get my trigger job done I'll post some small bore.

[raktrakr]

all shots are 5-shot groups,off hand,iron sights
pic1-25yds,1st attempt
pic2-the rifle
pic3-100yds
pic4 and 5-25yds
All in all,I impressed myself,its been a long time since I've shot off-hand.
In pic4 the hole at far right was from the 100yd group

[shogan]

Thats some good shooting on #5.

That 100 yard is a hard hold no doubt and if you have an trigger pull it's darn right tough. Take away scope and heck I can't even see the target at 100 so I'm impressed.

[Auk1124]

Heh, if I have time this weekend I'll pick up one of the Mosin Nagants and have a go at 50 and 100 - throw a little commie big bore action in on this experiment...

[GSP]

Good shootin RAk!
I hope to try this weekend.

[trust me]

Rak, those orange sticker targets are the real trick. I seem to do a little better on those than the standard black bull. They're pretty cheap and you get a bunch in a package. Combined with a box of bulk 22s, they're good cheap rifle practice.

[Quickdraw Limpsalot]

Good shootin RAk!
I hope to try this weekend.


Same here.. didn't make it out to the country last weekend.

[shogan]

ON the left is bench rested (ok the back of a chair and the chair is balanced on the top of my foot because our benches are out of commission. On the right is free hand standing.

Rifle is cz452 (with trigger job completed wohhoo much better). Any of you CZ owners get the 15 dollar trigger job yet?
scope is bsa 4-32
ammo is federal copper plated bulk
25 yards

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/kyhogan/100_0308.jpg

[trust me]

Shogan,
Nice target. Is that a download, or did you buy it? I'll steal it if you got an address.

There's a lot of good free targets out there you can get.

[shogan]

http://www.airhog.com/targets_1.htm

[aceoky]

Last year I started practicing my offhand shooting and even posted a picture of a target with about a 9 or 10 inch grouping. I was trying to get back down to an honest 6" spread like I could do in my prime. Everybody laughed and made fun of me, but nobody else offered to post a photo of their own target.

This isn't bench shooting; this is standing on your hind legs and controlling your breathing, your target picture, your trigger pull, everything. Sandbags and bench rests make snipers out of all of us...but what can we do all on our own?

I took advantage of a day off and an overcast sky to get out and burn some ammo. Here's a 10 shot group fired at 100 yards with open sights, from a standing position with no sling.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/254/254371/pages/861487/rugertarget.jpg

I am tickled to death because that's about all I can do with a scoped 22 right now. I didn't put a ruler to it but it looks like 7 or 7.5 inches center to center.

Last year Ace agreed with me that nobody shoots offhand enough to get really good anymore, but I couldn't get him to post a target either. Anybody else brave enough to try it? And post pictures of the proof?

I did agree and sorry I simply forgot all about it....:o Didn't mean to , but I did.....I'll try to make up for that this year though....:)

[aceoky]

Well, I "ran out" as light was fading(as the picture proves):D and shot a group(first one in some time I might add) :) and here is a ten shot group @ 25 yrds open sights .22 semi-auto rifle.....Sorry the "top circled" is @ 75 yrds same rifle/sights but it didn't show up well enough.....:(

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/aceoky/IMG_0002.jpg

[KYhunter79]

The first one is at 100 yds. With a scoped .22LR. There are 2 shots that you can't see in the white. Not very impressive, lol. The second one is from about 50 yds. With a scoped .22LR.

[shogan]

I have to say the first five I seem to hold ok but man it gets tiring trying to hold that still and put that much concentration on hitting the mark ecsp at 100 yards. And frankly I can't see out to a 100 yards with out a scope so my hats off to those of you that can see it and shoot it as well as you are.

[aceoky]

I have to say the first five I seem to hold ok but man it gets tiring trying to hold that still and put that much concentration on hitting the mark ecsp at 100 yards. And frankly I can't see out to a 100 yards with out a scope so my hats off to those of you that can see it and shoot it as well as you are.

Yeah, I agree! I pretty much "guessed" at where that one inch circle was @ 75 yards! For some time that .22 wore a 4X scope, I removed it, got rid of it, since I felt it important that my family learned to shoot without one.....I would have posted the 75 yard shots if they'd shown up better.....the 25 yrd shots were "rapid fire" (since light was running out) I'm hoping to find the time to "do it right" and maybe even do some "big bore" shooting (well, at least some off-hand shooting with the youngest son's .243 @ 100 maybe even 200