Record Spring Turkey Harvest

[Multidigits]

Outstanding harvest this year....a new record, as predicted.


1. 2006 = 28719* *23 day season, Saturday opener

2. 2002 = 28120* *weekday opener

3. 2003 = 27550*

4. 2004 = 26405*

5. 2005 = 25723*


6. 2001 = 23197

7. 2000 = 18243

[ril7572]

WOW, I thought Kentuckys turkeys were on the brink of extinction:eek:

By the way, where is Maxcam:confused:

[Multidigits]

WOW, I thought Kentuckys turkeys were on the brink of extinction:eek:

By the way, where is Maxcam:confused:

Henned up???????? :cool:

[ceohunter]

Here are the totals with 21 day seasons. 2006 was a good year but no record breaker by any means for a 21 days season. In addition, this year opened on a Saturday which should have propelled the season even further. This season was no different for me than any of the other years listed here.

1. 2002 = 28,120

2. 2003 = 27,550

3. 2004 = 26,405

4. 2006 = 26,269 * First 21 days of season

5. 2005 = 25,723

6. 2001 = 23,197

7. 2000 = 18,243

[Willie]

Here are the totals with 21 day seasons. 2006 was a good year but no record breaker by any means for a 21 days season. In addition, this year opened on a Saturday which should have propelled the season even further. This season was no different for me than any of the other years listed here.


Oh goody... a RECORD with an asterisk *.....

The FACT is there are birds out there when some naysayers used a declining flock as a scare tactic against crossbow expansion.

BTW - Was 2002 a "record breaker" over a shorter season year?

Season records are season records....period.

[Multidigits]

Saturday openers....do they make for more birds in the harvest??? Who knows for sure, but I don't think so. IT does allow more to take part on the opening, but not very good for the serious everyday hunters.

As for the harvest, you can't kill them if they are not there. Looks like they are/were there as reported. Next year should be interesting, but it ought to be another good one with "zillions" of jakes and young hens running around.

[BIGDAWG]

I guess those of us with job constraints that are happy with the Saturday openers fall into the non-serious hunters! We should all be happy we have an opening day period. I agree that we are blessed to be hunting the flock we are.

[aceoky]

Simply more proof, it's in our best interest to let the wildlife biolgists rather than "arm chair biologists" set our season, weapons and limits!

All one needs to do is go back and read what the latter said, opposing the former, simple really.....Then see which ones were correct.......

Wonder if a certain radio personality will do a program on just how badly HIS figures.opinions/ideas were "Off"??:D

[ryan hickey]

oh, i kind of DOUBT THAT ace ;) .

great news though, the wild turkey is thriving in our great state!!

[aceoky]

I do too RH, but he certainly had NO problem spewing forth his "wisdom" during all of this, NOW that it's so obvious on how incorrect he was, least he could honestly do, is to devote an entire show, to

"Well, I was "dead wrong" in so many ways....and then prepare for his next retraction subject, on......






" Velvet bucks, wow, I'm batting 1000 on bad ideas lately"! :D :D :D

[buckfever]

Yep, you guys are spot-on. Should we raise Kentucky's limit to 3 birds for next year?

Sheez, I don't understand all this gloating. This entire season couldn't have gone any better for hunters. Saturday opener, increased tag sales, expanded season, 4 weekends, great hunting weather throughout (except one weekend), mild winter, and abundant mast crop.

Weekends don't matter????? I guess that might be true if you ignore the harvest levels from the weekends compared to the weekdays. Didn't we kill some 10,000 birds on opening weekend alone? Hell, in the last week of the season, it took 5 weekdays to harvest 2000 birds. It took only 2 days this weekend to kill another 3000.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think the flock is in jeopardy (at least not where I live), but I certainly didn't see the kind of season that automatically makes me think that we should have a six week season or an increased bag limit. I don't know what would have been a great season, but I'd be rejoicing a lot more if we shot in the neighborhood of 30-32,000 birds.

And it strikes me as odd that people are so hell bent on telling others that they're wrong. Does that apply to the "armchair experts" who question where Ky's headed for other game animals, say for example, ducks???

It seems to me that a couple of things might be in play with the harvest totals. First, it's possible that we'd have a static harvest (somewhere in the 25-30K range) regardless of season length, timing, openers, etc (within limits). This would be true b/c the successful turkey hunters are going to kill their two birds pretty much no matter what, and that the balance of the harvest would come from the novice hunters who luck their way into a bird or two. If this scenario is accurate, then our flock might still be growing, and we have nothing at all to worry about, b/c we'll probably never harvest enough birds to adversely affect the flock. I guess under this scenario, our supply will always outstrip our demand.

On the other hand, it's also entirely possible that the relatively flat (and actually somewhat declining) harvest levels indicate that the flock has reached its maximum growth levels and that we're killing a static number of birds b/c that's how many are harvestable within the season time frame. If this is true, which is distinctly possible, b/c KDFWR has said that our flock has stabilized, then I'm not so thrilled to see more expansion and bigger harvests. Eventually, our harvest will cut into the number of toms available for reproduction, and our flock will suffer. Under this scenario, we run the risk of over-utilizing the resource.

[schuyler olt]

Take away the total for the extra weekend and the total is LESS than 2005.

Apples to apples we had another decline.

[Multidigits]

Take away the total for the extra weekend and the total is LESS than 2005.

Apples to apples we had another decline.

Your math is faultly again. 26,269 is a bigger number than 25,723. Sorry to bust your bubble.

[Multidigits]

Yep, you guys are spot-on. Should we raise Kentucky's limit to 3 birds for next year?

Sheez, I don't understand all this gloating. This entire season couldn't have gone any better for hunters. Saturday opener, increased tag sales, expanded season, 4 weekends, great hunting weather throughout (except one weekend), mild winter, and abundant mast crop.

Weekends don't matter????? I guess that might be true if you ignore the harvest levels from the weekends compared to the weekdays. Didn't we kill some 10,000 birds on opening weekend alone? Hell, in the last week of the season, it took 5 weekdays to harvest 2000 birds. It took only 2 days this weekend to kill another 3000.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think the flock is in jeopardy (at least not where I live), but I certainly didn't see the kind of season that automatically makes me think that we should have a six week season or an increased bag limit. I don't know what would have been a great season, but I'd be rejoicing a lot more if we shot in the neighborhood of 30-32,000 birds.

And it strikes me as odd that people are so hell bent on telling others that they're wrong. Does that apply to the "armchair experts" who question where Ky's headed for other game animals, say for example, ducks???

It seems to me that a couple of things might be in play with the harvest totals. First, it's possible that we'd have a static harvest (somewhere in the 25-30K range) regardless of season length, timing, openers, etc (within limits). This would be true b/c the successful turkey hunters are going to kill their two birds pretty much no matter what, and that the balance of the harvest would come from the novice hunters who luck their way into a bird or two. If this scenario is accurate, then our flock might still be growing, and we have nothing at all to worry about, b/c we'll probably never harvest enough birds to adversely affect the flock. I guess under this scenario, our supply will always outstrip our demand.

On the other hand, it's also entirely possible that the relatively flat (and actually somewhat declining) harvest levels indicate that the flock has reached its maximum growth levels and that we're killing a static number of birds b/c that's how many are harvestable within the season time frame. If this is true, which is distinctly possible, b/c KDFWR has said that our flock has stabilized, then I'm not so thrilled to see more expansion and bigger harvests. Eventually, our harvest will cut into the number of toms available for reproduction, and our flock will suffer. Under this scenario, we run the risk of over-utilizing the resource.

I don't see anyone asking for any addition to the turkey limit. That will probably come at some time, but not now. Any gloating is not because of the great season we just had, but because of the poo-pooers that tried to tell us we wouldn't have one. Look at the redicules post by Sky, where he looked at the numbers wrong, and you'll see a gloat.

The fact is that the Wildlife Dept. correctly predicted that the turkey flock was/is in good condition. That we had a poor hatch last year, but overall, the flock could handle what were putting on it, both in the Spring and in the Fall. Some people didn't believe it, and now they are the fool. What's wrong with being a man and saying they were wrong, instead of saying that we had a wonderful season because of the weather, extra weekend, etc.?????

[WBBP]

We had a year over year increase in gobbler harvest for the exact number of days in 2005. This can't be twisted.

BF: You made a comment earlier that the the harvest was still in decline. This is inaccurate. It can't be considered to be in decline when the harvest increased in 2006.

[schuyler olt]

Your math is faultly again. 26,269 is a bigger number than 25,723. Sorry to bust your bubble.

I was using Ballard's reference of 3,000 birds the last weekend. Do you have a different weekend number?

[Multidigits]

I was using Ballard's reference of 3,000 birds the last weekend. Do you have a different weekend number?

The correct one. Pretty quick to jump with Ballards number, ask him, I'm sure he knows it. (assuming you don't believe the one I just posted) :rolleyes:

[buckfever]

I don't see anyone asking for any addition to the turkey limit. That will probably come at some time, but not now. Any gloating is not because of the great season we just had, but because of the poo-pooers that tried to tell us we wouldn't have one. Look at the redicules post by Sky, where he looked at the numbers wrong, and you'll see a gloat.

The fact is that the Wildlife Dept. correctly predicted that the turkey flock was/is in good condition. That we had a poor hatch last year, but overall, the flock could handle what were putting on it, both in the Spring and in the Fall. Some people didn't believe it, and now they are the fool. What's wrong with being a man and saying they were wrong, instead of saying that we had a wonderful season because of the weather, extra weekend, etc.?????

How do you know that that the "flock could handle what were putting on it"? It's been years since we haven't increased the number of hunters, the opportunity or the bag limit in some form or fashion. We haven't slowed down long enough to determine what the flock could handle.

[Multidigits]

First, how do you know it can't? Turkey biology is not new, most states have some experts that advise them what they need to do. These experts agree for the most part on what part of the flock can be harvested each year without harm to the resource. Ky. has not reached that point. Remember that Geo Wright is not at the helm any longer and that his opinion on the carrying capacity was not very accurate. So, the facts are,that up to 10% of the flock can be harvested in the fall, and we are taking less than 5% even in the high year that was some sort of fluke. When you don't know something, why not refer back to the experts?

[WBBP]

BF: As far as wondering if the turkey resource can handle the harvest pressure, I say we have the results in front us us. We have five years of harvest data that show a harvest that is basically (+/-) 10% over the last 5 years. As we have discussed over the last year, many variables go into deciding if the harvest is too high or too low. I am not a biologist, but I would say that an approximate flat line harvest of around 26,500 birds over the last 5 years is some pretty usefeul data. If the spring harvest is 15,000 nest year, now that would be cause for concern and would require immediate action of changing the spring limit to one gobbler IMO.

I am not for any significant increase in opportunity, we have plenty already. If 80,000 archery hunters are only killing 1,000 gobblers/year, then I don't think a few thousand CB hunters would have much affect either. I am not arguing that the CB isn't more effective (it is IMO), but the fact is that the reason most hunters don't harvest more gobblers is msotly due to the lack of a good place to hunt and time limitations. These two issues are the real limniters of the overall turkey harvest IMO.

[buckfever]

I don't know that it can't, but I'd rather not push all the buttons to find out.

If you want to kill 25,000 birds in the fall, there's nothing I can say except that I disagree.

Why do you say that the Fall 2004 season was a "fluke"? I thought it was pretty well settled that a lack of mast pushed the birds into the fields. The Fall 2005 season was the opposite. Abundant mast scattered the birds which resulted in a decreased harvest (which left a couple thousand extra gobblers in the woods for this Spring).

[Multidigits]

I don't know that it can't, but I'd rather not push all the buttons to find out.

If you want to kill 25,000 birds in the fall, there's nothing I can say except that I disagree.

Why do you say that the Fall 2004 season was a "fluke"? I thought it was pretty well settled that a lack of mast pushed the birds into the fields. The Fall 2005 season was the opposite. Abundant mast scattered the birds which resulted in a decreased harvest (which left a couple thousand extra gobblers in the woods for this Spring).

We're not even close to 25,000 birds in the fall harvest....nor will we ever be. Ky. is a deer hunting state and that's what people do in the fall. Turkey hunting is a novelty in the fall. The first year, lots of people tried it. the next not many did. That trend will continue, back to the levels we saw before the expansion. The fall harvest will be stricky oppurtunity, and as the wildlife dept. said ahile back, it can increase 3 fold before there's a problem. So far, they have been correct on everything they have said about the flock, I see no reason to doubt this one.


2000 extra gobblers in a flock of 200,000 to 250,000??? How do you know and who noticed????

[buckfever]

BF: As far as wondering if the turkey resource can handle the harvest pressure, I say we have the results in front us us. We have five years of harvest data that show a harvest that is basically (+/-) 10% over the last 5 years. As we have discussed over the last year, many variables go into deciding if the harvest is too high or too low. I am not a biologist, but I would say that an approximate flat line harvest of around 26,500 birds over the last 5 years is some pretty usefeul data. If the spring harvest is 15,000 nest year, now that would be cause for concern and would require immediate action of changing the spring limit to one gobbler IMO.

I am not for any significant increase in opportunity, we have plenty already. If 80,000 archery hunters are only killing 1,000 gobblers/year, then I don't think a few thousand CB hunters would have much affect either. I am not arguing that the CB isn't more effective (it is IMO), but the fact is that the reason most hunters don't harvest more gobblers is msotly due to the lack of a good place to hunt and time limitations. These two issues are the real limniters of the overall turkey harvest IMO.

Kalen - I'm not going to re-hash the crossbow argument. If crossbows had been legalized across the entire archery season, I think we'd have a lot more than a "few thousand CB hunters" 5 years from now.

The "flat line" Spring harvest is not all that useful b/c we have no measuring stick. Every year, we've increased opportunity at every turn. I'm not trying to argue that our turkeys are endangered. I don't think they are, although I certainly wouldn't want to see any increase in bag limits. All I'm saying is that it's ridiculous for people to start insulting others using this year's results when it isn't all that clear what a dynamite season we've had.

[buckfever]

We're not even close to 25,000 birds in the fall harvest....nor will we ever be. Ky. is a deer hunting state and that's what people do in the fall. Turkey hunting is a novelty in the fall. The first year, lots of people tried it. the next not many did. That trend will continue, back to the levels we saw before the expansion. The fall harvest will be stricky oppurtunity, and as the wildlife dept. said ahile back, it can increase 3 fold before there's a problem. So far, they have been correct on everything they have said about the flock, I see no reason to doubt this one.


2000 extra gobblers in a flock of 200,000 to 250,000??? How do you know and who noticed????

I can't really respond to most of this, b/c I can't understand what you're saying. What the hell is a "stricky oppurtunity"?

As for fall hunting being a "novelty", how many fall tags were sold in 2004 and how many in 2005? It increased in 2005? Whoddathunkit?

You don't think 2000 is significant? How many gobblers do you think we have in our flock of 200-250,000?

[WBBP]

I agree about the insults.

As far as a dynamite season goes, I would say when you kill more this spring in the same number of days as last spring, that is not a bad thing. We have to start somewhere.

No CB rehash......................but I am not giving up on them until it is a full season.

K

[turk2di]

It took only 2 days this weekend to kill another 3000.
HMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm!

[turk2di]

If 80,000 archery hunters are only killing 1,000 gobblers/year, then I don't think a few thousand CB hunters would have much affect either.
Lord knows Kalen how many straggle off wounded, never 2b found! Im concerned about that. I know of personally 14 birds hit last fall during archery season that were never found. 6, of which im sad to say, weren't even looked for. I can't be the only one who hears of this? We need to at least bring this up come closer to fall to hopefully get archers focus on this! Regardless of weapon!

[turk2di]

We're not even close to 25,000 birds in the fall harvest....nor will we ever be. Ky. is a deer hunting state and that's what people do in the fall. Turkey hunting is a novelty in the fall. The first year, lots of people tried it. the next not many did. That trend will continue, back to the levels we saw before the expansion. The fall harvest will be stricky oppurtunity, and as the wildlife dept. said ahile back, it can increase 3 fold before there's a problem. So far, they have been correct on everything they have said about the flock, I see no reason to doubt this one.


2000 extra gobblers in a flock of 200,000 to 250,000??? How do you know and who noticed????
Agreed..........

[WBBP]

Turk:

I don't think that there is any reason to tell archers to be more careful when they are shooting turkeys with a bow. They already are careful. Most of those I know that bowhunt are the most ethical of any of the weapons groups.

The fact is that archery does have a high wound rate, especially for turkeys. I have heard and seen this with my own eyes and I hate it, but waht are you going to do, ban archers from hunting turkeys.

Based on my experience and what I hear and see in the field, I would estimate that 70% of all turkeys hit with a bolt or arrow are not recovered. On the flip side of this, I would say that of all turkeys shot with a shotgun, approximately 30% are not recovered. I am not talking about shooting and missing a turkey or implanting a few pellts in the turkey, I am talking about a wound that won't let the turkey fly (certain death from a predator) or a wound that let's the turkey run/fly off and die later buried in a brush pile....to be later eaten by a predator.

The end result of this is that "gun hunters" are wounding a huge amount of gobblers, since they make up 90% of the kill and they are the ones that need to be more careful.

K

[turk2di]

Turk:

I don't think that there is any reason to tell archers to be more careful when they are shooting turkeys with a bow. They already are careful. Most of those I know that bowhunt are the most ethical of any of the weapons groups.

The fact is that archery does have a high wound rate, especially for turkeys. I have heard and seen this with my own eyes and I hate it, but waht are you going to do, ban archers from hunting turkeys.

Based on my experience and what I hear and see in the field, I would estimate that 70% of all turkeys hit with a bolt or arrow are not recovered. On the flip side of this, I would say that of all turkeys shot with a shotgun, approximately 30% are not recovered. I am not talking about shooting and missing a turkey or implanting a few pellts in the turkey, I am talking about a wound that won't let the turkey fly (certain death from a predator) or a wound that let's the turkey run/fly off and die later buried in a brush pile....to be later eaten by a predator.

The end result of this is that "gun hunters" are wounding a huge amount of gobblers, since they make up 90% of the kill and they are the ones that need to be more careful.

K
Since u were refering to archery, i was too;) No doubt, we ALL could be more carefull!

[coondog]

I hunted Indiana this year and tagged a bird. I really like how they still did the check in station at the small gas stores and marts. They weighed the bird and used a syringe plunger to measure the exact centimeters of the spurs. Much more info than we get in Ky and I believe the old "check-in" way you get much more people checking in birds. We killed 4 times the amount of longbeards of the lands in ky I hunt this year. There were groups of fat healthy 2 yo's with alomst inch spurs running around this year. The scary part is the lack of jakes (and hens too) I saw this year. I am worried about the next 2 years.

[Feedman]

I agree with Coondog. I would like to have the old check stations back for deer and turkey. I hunted a farm last thursday. Called in 8 turkey's. Heard gobblin all over the place. 4 of the turkey's called in were jakes. i only saw 2 hens. Maybe this is why the gobblers responded so well. I talked to the owner as I was leaving and he stated that he had not seen as many hens this year as in years past.

3000 birds checked in over the weekend, Wonder how many of them had been killed earlier in the season and checked in at the end!!!!!!!!!!

[maxcam]

The crows are all at the top of the barn cawling out how proud they are I see!

Lets take a real look at what transpired during the 2006 spring turkey season….


To begin, a stellar youth hunt started it all off…..Some were cawling for a new record in the 30,000 bird range!

We had 4 full weekends to hunt turkey and the season was extended to 23 days. Compared to 3 weekends and 21 days like in 2002.

Nearly everyone was afforded the opportunity to participate in the season opener! Unlike 2002! Which if I'm not mistaken opened on a Monday!

The weather was almost perfect! Including the youth weekend! I agree it could have been a bit cooler but all in all better than normal conditions!

There are now 25% more turkey hunters to enjoy or fine hunting now than in 2002 (KDFW estimates not mine!).

There are more folks carrying better equipment now than in 2002…..(Scopes, red dots, over bored 3.5 inch 12 gauges, hevi shot…..etc.)

The flock is larger now than in 2002. (we hadn’t yet reached the carrying capacity of the land quiet yet!)
All of these things had the moons around Saturn all lined up for a record breaking year….What happened? …..Was the best we could do is 427 more birds this year than in 2002!

We had more hunters with better equipment hunting more birds with more days in the woods and all we could manage was 427 more birds…..? Give me a break!

[ril7572]

Thanks Max, I needed a good laugh before heading off to bed.:D

[maxcam]

Im glad you could find humor in my post Ril.....Here is something else for you to read ......

2002 the fine youth of Kentucky harvested.......937 birds

2006 they out did themselves..... 1264

Thats a difference of 327 birds harvested by our kids or an increase of about 30% .......That means that the rest of the season only netted about 100 more birds this year than 2002.

Here is something else you might want to read......

http://www.kentuckygameandfish.com/hunting/turkey-hunting/ky_aa032103a/

Im sure you will find it funny too.....Wonder why we didnt see such a great year in 2003 or 2004 like they experts predicted?

Also make note of the Green River Region that is touted as the best region in the state.....No doubt more turkeys are killed there every year....But even with the "new" record year they are down from 2002!

There is a misprint it seems in the first paragraph that reads that in 2002 Kentucky harvested just over 28,700 birds! This cant be true however because it would cast doubt on the acuracy of the harvest numbers as reported on the KDFW website!

We went from a potential 300,000 bird flock to 250,000 in just a few short years too I noticed.....Any takers on what the number will switch too in a couple more?

[WBBP]

Damn Maxcam, I figured you were still busy wiping all the egg off your face by predicting a failure this season.

You werent' just wrong, you and your thought process were a disaster. Don't fill up on crow all the way right now, you will probably be eating more next month. :eek:


Happy eating.

K

[maxcam]

Damn Maxcam, I figured you were still busy wiping all the egg off your face by predicting a failure this season.

You werent' just wrong, you and your thought process were a disaster. Don't fill up on crow all the way right now, you will probably be eating more next month. :eek:


Happy eating.

K

Kalen

Did you get a crossbow yet.....:D

[Multidigits]

The crows are all at the top of the barn cawling out how proud they are I see!

Lets take a real look at what transpired during the 2006 spring turkey season….


To begin, a stellar youth hunt started it all off…..Some were cawling for a new record in the 30,000 bird range!

We had 4 full weekends to hunt turkey and the season was extended to 23 days. Compared to 3 weekends and 21 days like in 2002.

Nearly everyone was afforded the opportunity to participate in the season opener! Unlike 2002! Which if I'm not mistaken opened on a Monday!

The weather was almost perfect! Including the youth weekend! I agree it could have been a bit cooler but all in all better than normal conditions!

There are now 25% more turkey hunters to enjoy or fine hunting now than in 2002 (KDFW estimates not mine!).

There are more folks carrying better equipment now than in 2002…..(Scopes, red dots, over bored 3.5 inch 12 gauges, hevi shot…..etc.)

The flock is larger now than in 2002. (we hadn’t yet reached the carrying capacity of the land quiet yet!)
All of these things had the moons around Saturn all lined up for a record breaking year….What happened? …..Was the best we could do is 427 more birds this year than in 2002!

We had more hunters with better equipment hunting more birds with more days in the woods and all we could manage was 427 more birds…..? Give me a break!

Now we know why we have a biologist in charge of our turkey flock, not a paint mixer. Thanks for clearing that up! :D

[Multidigits]

To begin, a stellar youth hunt started it all off…..Some were cawling for a new record in the 30,000 bird range!

We had 4 full weekends to hunt turkey and the season was extended to 23 days. Compared to 3 weekends and 21 days like in 2002.

Nearly everyone was afforded the opportunity to participate in the season opener! Unlike 2002! Which if I'm not mistaken opened on a Monday!

The weather was almost perfect! Including the youth weekend! I agree it could have been a bit cooler but all in all better than normal conditions!

There are now 25% more turkey hunters to enjoy or fine hunting now than in 2002 (KDFW estimates not mine!).

There are more folks carrying better equipment now than in 2002…..(Scopes, red dots, over bored 3.5 inch 12 gauges, hevi shot…..etc.)

The flock is larger now than in 2002. (we hadn’t yet reached the carrying capacity of the land quiet yet!)

The Youth Season always starts it off, just like the years when the harvest was in decline. Maybe there were more youth hunters in the estimated 75,000 or so turkey hunters??? Think that is better or worse for the harvest? I remember when a Ky-NWTF president fought to keep the kids hunt after the season, instead of before. Glad it's before and glad the kids had a good hunt. Doubt weather was the factor, as timing of the mode the turkeys were in was perfect this year.

We had 4 weekends.....wasn't a factor in the 21 days it took to make last years harvest. The decline in harvest, as predicted by the arm-chair experts was over before the fourth weekend. Kudus for the Commission for adding two more days and allowing the extra oppurtunity.

Everyone was out on the weekends??? Got the data to back that up? Weekend warriors got their turn at the opener and it wasn't a disaster. May have been counter productive, but who knows. Kudus to the Commission for the desicion to take the chance.

Weather was normal, warm in the front part, lot's of rainy days, and one totally washed out weekend. All on par from previous years. Not a factor in the harvest though. People have a short time to hunt, and they will go hunting regardless of the weather.

More hunters is not always conducive to more harvest. Look at public land harvest and it's plain to see.

Better equipment is not a factor in the harvest. No matter what the hunters use, it won't make a difference unless there something to kill. Some people said they weren't there, and they were wrong.

The flock is larger now than in 2002. No kidding? Wonder why all the doom and gloom before the season then? Amazing, and they said it was in decline for the past 3 years. So how is it larger if it's declining?????????

[Valley Station]

25% more turkey hunters harvested fewer turkey in 2006 than in 2002???
Guess you can't harvest what, isn't there.

[schuyler olt]

Damn Maxcam, I figured you were still busy wiping all the egg off your face by predicting a failure this season.

You werent' just wrong, you and your thought process were a disaster. Don't fill up on crow all the way right now, you will probably be eating more next month. :eek:


Happy eating.

K

How was his thought process a disaster, and just exactly how is he wrong?

[schuyler olt]

The correct one. Pretty quick to jump with Ballards number, ask him, I'm sure he knows it. (assuming you don't believe the one I just posted) :rolleyes:

And that "correct" number for the last weekend is????????????

[Multidigits]

25% more turkey hunters harvested fewer turkey in 2006 than in 2002???
Guess you can't harvest what, isn't there.

How do you figure that more were harvested in 2002???? show us the number your working with. Also, show the numbers on the 25%.

[Multidigits]

And that "correct" number for the last weekend is????????????

26,269 as of Fri. afternoon.

ballard's 3000 was actually 2450

[WBBP]

Sky, maybe I am missing something, but here are the numbers posted by CEO Hunter earlier in this thread. His numbers were taken from telecheck on a day by day basis.

2006 = 28719* *23 day season
(minus)
2006 = 26,269 * First 21 days of season

Last weekend kill = 2,450

Lastly, the comments from me to Maxcam were directly related to his posts several months ago predicting a continued decline in spring turkey harvest. He was flat wrong and has a history of inaccurate comments and supposed facts. Now, he wants to change the subject with smoke and mirrors instead of being a man and saying he was wrong.

The tone of my post was a direct response to his attempt at being an arm chair biologist and was not directed at anyone else. Surely you don't support his personal attacks on those that manage the turkey resources within Department/Commission.

[Multidigits]

I wouldn't be so sure......several others than Maxi question the Depts. data, and the credentials of Jim Lane and crew on several occasions. Not sure, but I think Sky chimed in with those that did? Seems it was mostly a 3rd district thing, so maybe it was a plan of some sort?

[JDMiller]

Too much gloom & doom for me. I cant believe that anyone cant be happy with a good season. The numbers as posted on the KDF&WR were up at the end of 21 days and with two extra days added we broke the 2002 record harvest. Seems to me.....the ones that have publicly commented that they have the upmost concern for the turkeys....would be happy with the results and just simply state.....it looks like we pulled one out of what was expected to be a bad season. Instead ....they want to continue to blow smoke.

I'm definitely no expert in turkey management but it does'nt take a brain surgeon to figure out that you cant predict the outcome of every season. Some of the statements like we had perfect weather......in this part of the state....it rained just about every weekend and several days during the week pretty much throughout the entire season. When it was not raining....the wind blew 30 miles a hour. The phases the birds were in were noticebly different by many...and in my opinion ahead of schedule but Kentucky hunters took to the field and made the most out of it. We pulled it off despite being told by many...publicly...the birds were not there.

As long as I've been turkey hunting I dont remember two seasons that were exactly the same. Some years I heard lots of birds ...other years I did'nt. Some years I took two birds ...most years I just took one and I've went empty handed during a occasional season. There are too many variables in hunting that you will never predict and probably should'nt. I dont relate that to mis-management....heck..thats just hunting. Sure there are hunters who did'nt have any luck this season and its a sure thing there will be hunters next year that wont harvest. It is also a sure bet that we will have decreases in harvest in some years and we will have increases in harvest in other years.

To expect a record season every year is unrealistic and to base the entire state on your particular hunting area is not the way I would want the KDF&WR to base their management on. So.....you can cry gloom & doom all you want. I like most hunters.... will just head to the woods and make the most out of every season and enjoy what we have.

[schuyler olt]

Sky, maybe I am missing something, but here are the numbers posted by CEO Hunter earlier in this thread. His numbers were taken from telecheck on a day by day basis.

2006 = 28719* *23 day season
(minus)
2006 = 26,269 * First 21 days of season

Last weekend kill = 2,450

Lastly, the comments from me to Maxcam were directly related to his posts several months ago predicting a continued decline in spring turkey harvest. He was flat wrong and has a history of inaccurate comments and supposed facts. Now, he wants to change the subject with smoke and mirrors instead of being a man and saying he was wrong.

The tone of my post was a direct response to his attempt at being an arm chair biologist and was not directed at anyone else. Surely you don't support his personal attacks on those that manage the turkey resources within Department/Commission.

I don't support personal attacks on anyone. That doesn't mean I won't disagree with the conclusions drawn by someone, including Jim Lane.

And I disagree that Maxcam was "flat wrong." Keep this in mind--the two year olds this year were the birds of the first bad hatch and the jakes were those of the second. We had a higher TOTAL number of birds killed this year, and there is NO denying that the extra weekend contributed in large part to that.

Turkey populations, looking at the experiences of Georgia and Missouri, for example, show that they decline over a period of years, not overnight. We have seen steady, slow declines over several years now. We had more hunters this year than ever, we had a longer season than ever, and yet we did not take more birds when that last weekend is disregarded.

What that SUGGESTS to me is that the flock is not growing. Perhaps we've reached carrying capacity. If so, that's a scary proposition from the standpoint that we can expect the overall percentage of adult gobblers to shrink as we take more of them.

To illustrate that, think about the old days when milk wasn't pastuerized, and the cream would seperate to the top. Now skim some of that cream (gobblers) off, and refill it with half-and-half (gobblers and hens from the next hatch). Eventually, the cream will be diluted to the point of being non-existant.

I've personally put a lot of effort, time and money into Kentucky's turkeys, and maybe that makes me more conservative than others. But I think we need to really take a long, hard look at the situation, study the root causes, and develop some long range strategies to head off a more serious situation before it occurs. I've personally seen the decline in the quality of hunting in other states, and I think we owe it to each other and our following generations to commit ourselves to maintaining and enhancing our flock in every realistically possible way.

[rouge]

with all the folks that had bad luck as i did, with the strange season and all. the kill could have been close to 30,000. we had a pretty damn good season considering all the doubters and naysayers. i have come to the conclusion that im just not a good turkey hunter, add bad luck on top of that i think im gonna stick to crappie fishin! anyone need any used turkey huntin gear?:)

[Multidigits]

I don't support personal attacks on anyone. That doesn't mean I won't disagree with the conclusions drawn by someone, including Jim Lane.

And I disagree that Maxcam was "flat wrong." Keep this in mind--the two year olds this year were the birds of the first bad hatch and the jakes were those of the second. We had a higher TOTAL number of birds killed this year, and there is NO denying that the extra weekend contributed in large part to that.

Turkey populations, looking at the experiences of Georgia and Missouri, for example, show that they decline over a period of years, not overnight. We have seen steady, slow declines over several years now. We had more hunters this year than ever, we had a longer season than ever, and yet we did not take more birds when that last weekend is disregarded.

What that SUGGESTS to me is that the flock is not growing. Perhaps we've reached carrying capacity. If so, that's a scary proposition from the standpoint that we can expect the overall percentage of adult gobblers to shrink as we take more of them.

To illustrate that, think about the old days when milk wasn't pastuerized, and the cream would seperate to the top. Now skim some of that cream (gobblers) off, and refill it with half-and-half (gobblers and hens from the next hatch). Eventually, the cream will be diluted to the point of being non-existant.

I've personally put a lot of effort, time and money into Kentucky's turkeys, and maybe that makes me more conservative than others. But I think we need to really take a long, hard look at the situation, study the root causes, and develop some long range strategies to head off a more serious situation before it occurs. I've personally seen the decline in the quality of hunting in other states, and I think we owe it to each other and our following generations to commit ourselves to maintaining and enhancing our flock in every realistically possible way.

"and yet we did not take more birds when that last weekend is disregarded"

This is really baffling, how smart guys such as Sky can't see that the number of turkeys killed after the end of the 21 days of this year season, was more than the prior year. The numbers have been posted multiple times on this forum, as they appeared off the KYDFWR web page.

"Perhaps we've reached carrying capacity"

Fairly close to what the Wildlife Dept. said before the season. Another consistant harvest appears to confirm. And the only decline in gobblers is because of the hatch, if there is one. With a consistant number being taken each year, we'll know when enough is enough. Assuming the flock is stabalized, then the number of birds is constant, if there's more hens, then there will be more poults.

"look at the situation, study the root causes, and develop some long range strategies to head off a more serious situation"

What situation??? The one that was precieved in order to combat the crossbow expansion before the Ky-NWTF figure out what was happening?

Root causes???? Such as a poor hatch that all states in the region also experienced. From an experts standpoint, I would think you would know that there is nothing that can be done about a bad hatch every now and then except wait for a good one or two to come along. Looks like that wait will be a short one with the number of eggs being found in some of the nests this year.

As for long range planning, how about backing off of the extra fall gun season as a savior of our childrens flocks.........jeez! :cool:

[schuyler olt]

Of course, the old biologist thought the carrying capacity was more in the range of 500,000 birds, but who's to say, right?

God forbid we could have a serious conversation about the issue of the future quality of turkey hunting in this state without those who have a personal profit motive through crossbow sales and leasing chiming in that it's all about them. Get real.

Turkeys aren't spread across this state like peanut butter. We have areas where the quality of hunting is pretty marginal. It's not good to look in our own backyards, see a wad of birds, and think it's like that everywhere. It isn't.

Sure, let's just wait until we have some great hatches. Let's fiddle while Rome burns, too.

If you want to get rid of the December season, I'm willing to talk about it. Want to limit NRs to one gobbler? There are many things, taken together, that even though each is a small step, they add up to a significant impact.

I'm not suggesting any particular thing as a step to be taken. I'm just saying that this "record" tally isn't anything to crow about. To the contrary, it probably supports the need to be even more concerned about where this flock is and where it's going.

[sirgiovanni]

Want to limit NRs to one gobbler?

Yeah, like I have ever killed more than one anyway. LOL
I'm sure non residents killing 2 gobblers is bringing down the world as we know it. I'm more concerned about the locals sneaking in on private ground year round and not tagging them out.

[Multidigits]

Of course, the old biologist thought the carrying capacity was more in the range of 500,000 birds, but who's to say, right?

God forbid we could have a serious conversation about the issue of the future quality of turkey hunting in this state without those who have a personal profit motive through crossbow sales and leasing chiming in that it's all about them. Get real.

Turkeys aren't spread across this state like peanut butter. We have areas where the quality of hunting is pretty marginal. It's not good to look in our own backyards, see a wad of birds, and think it's like that everywhere. It isn't.

Sure, let's just wait until we have some great hatches. Let's fiddle while Rome burns, too.

If you want to get rid of the December season, I'm willing to talk about it. Want to limit NRs to one gobbler? There are many things, taken together, that even though each is a small step, they add up to a significant impact.

I'm not suggesting any particular thing as a step to be taken. I'm just saying that this "record" tally isn't anything to crow about. To the contrary, it probably supports the need to be even more concerned about where this flock is and where it's going.

The flock is stable and the future is brite, just as the Wildlife Dept. and the new head biologists has predicted. When you can show some data that any of your concerns are true, then we'll just hold what we have. In spite of a few peoples best shots, most people still believe the KYDFWR is doing a good job managing the turkey flock statewide. I don't see that declining with a record harvest season.

[Multidigits]

Yeah, like I have ever killed more than one anyway. LOL
I'm sure non residents killing 2 gobblers is bringing down the world as we know it. I'm more concerned about the locals sneaking in on private ground year round and not tagging them out.

You have to realize how these people think.....it's great to take a trip or three out of state each year hunting someone elses birds, but don't come knocking here at home. To plus side is most people don't have a problem with NR hunters coming here to hunt.

[aceoky]

Having read all of these, though some are indeed pretty funny......

The FACT remains, certain people said, we had a DECLINING turkey flock.......how do you harvest MORE birds in 10 or 100 extra days , unless they're actually there???

You Don't, thus, since it happened, it's safe to assume, those who said, the turkey flock was in "serious trouble" ' "serious Decline", must have been mistaken, and if that seems to anyone as Crowing.....so be it! I think it's great news that things continue to improve, and that IS a positive thing!!

And the KDFWR didn't care much less know what they were doing seems "busted", as Myth busters would say....

I have to wonder if some people ever relax and enjoy the positive aspects of what we have, and what we're going to get on down the road?? Or do they only think the worst in every case??? Some caution is obvioulsy a good thing, but "paranoia" is not.... usually......perhaps something to think seriously about and consider, seems rather obvious to me at least ;

No one can kill birds that don't even exist, IF they're killed they had to be there, and survived up to that point????

All this repeated "gloom and doom", on so many issues, doesn't seem to me to add any positive aspects of what we do or why we do it......IS that the message we want to really be sending to the youth??? Or new hunters in general??

THOSE were the points I was trying to make fwiw....

[WBBP]

Sky, I would love to have a civil sharing of ideas on turkey populations. It is important to note what everyone is seeing and not seeing, but there are several on here that want to be disruptive and get personal and cause nothing but a disturbance when it comes to discussing something serious.

I have plenty of thoughts on turkeys, you might be surprised at some of them.

K

[skin_dog1]

The flock is stable and the future is brite, just as the Wildlife Dept. and the new head biologists has predicted. When you can show some data that any of your concerns are true, then we'll just hold what we have. In spite of a few peoples best shots, most people still believe the KYDFWR is doing a good job managing the turkey flock statewide. I don't see that declining with a record harvest season.Now it's attack multi time. The Tom Conley I first met here never agreed with crap the dept did. What happened Tom? Who spanked your pee pee? I figure in order for you to get your way with the cross bow you needed to start kissing a little tail. Is that why the Dept is perfect in your eyes? Now remember, I don't have a problem with the dept and think they are doing a fine job overall. I've never publicly bashed them like you have, now anytime someone disagrees with them you step in like the prince in shining armor. Most of these people you fight with I either don't know, don't want to know, or I just don't care. BTW, I had a hell of a turkey season and for the last 2 years I've killed my 2 birds the only 2 days I've carried a gun. I don't see a problem with the current turkey regs, nor do I predict some terrible decline in their numbers. I was concerned with the x-bow, but feel confident now that the dept will nip that one in the bud if it becomes a prob. Also, no one here hates non res, it's just too dern cheap for em to come here and hunt. We should cash in just like you and every other state has. Good day! and welcome to my ignore list!

[skin_dog1]

Sky, I would love to have a civil sharing of ideas on turkey populations. It is important to note what everyone is seeing and not seeing, but there are several on here that want to be disruptive and get personal and cause nothing but a disturbance when it comes to discussing something serious.

I have plenty of thoughts on turkeys, you might be surprised at some of them.

KSorry K, guess my last post qualifies! Just venting buddy.

[schuyler olt]

Sky, I would love to have a civil sharing of ideas on turkey populations. It is important to note what everyone is seeing and not seeing, but there are several on here that want to be disruptive and get personal and cause nothing but a disturbance when it comes to discussing something serious.

I have plenty of thoughts on turkeys, you might be surprised at some of them.

K

I'd love to hear them. I remember when Missouri, Alabama and Georgia were absolutely the places to go to hunt easterns, and that isn't the case anymore.

Why do we want to go down that road, or even chance it?

I'm not a NR basher--heck, I do my fair share of NR hunting. I pointed that out as one possible PARTIAL solution that has been used in some other states. Oklahoma has an interesting limit--three birds, but only two can come from the same county. As I go around, I see the way other states do it, and some of their ideas aren't bad.

As to killing birds that don't exist, that's obviously impossible. Give me two days to kill two birds, that can be a very tall order. Give me ten days, that's easier. Give me 23, easier yet.

I just think it's smarter to consider possible solutions to a potential problem before the problem exists. Otherwise, we're back in a restoration mode. Having seen that first hand, we DEFINITELY do not want to go there.

[Multidigits]

I don't see a problem with with our flock on private lands. When you have a lot of farmers complaining about crop damge from turkeys, it's getting close to having enough. But, it's apparent that public land hunting is in need of something? We have over a million acres that are unproducing, so something could be fine tuned there, but it might not be very popular.

[turk2di]

Sky, I would love to have a civil sharing of ideas on turkey populations. It is important to note what everyone is seeing and not seeing, but there are several on here that want to be disruptive and get personal and cause nothing but a disturbance when it comes to discussing something serious.

I have plenty of thoughts on turkeys, you might be surprised at some of them.

K
Righto Kalen. Especially when u have a different opinion! I for one, don't recall suscribing to the declining theory! But i have pushed the "it could be better argument"!

[turk2di]

I don't see a problem with with our flock on private lands. When you have a lot of farmers complaining about crop damge from turkeys, it's getting close to having enough. But, it's apparent that public land hunting is in need of something? We have over a million acres that are unproducing, so something could be fine tuned there, but it might not be very popular.
Nothing is needed on public ground! You just worry about your leases! Public ground birds do a better job of avoiding shot than do lease birds!

[Multidigits]

Nothing is needed on public ground! You just worry about your leases! Public ground birds do a better job of avoiding shot than do lease birds!

You just said "it could be better"????? Public land is not producing up to par with it's potential. Something is needed to fix the problems, what ever they are.

[Feedman]

Wonder how many gobblers were killed this spring and not Tele-checked. I know that their has to be a percentage used by the dept. to get some idea of total harvest?

How many gobblers did you see or hear on the property that you hunt that did not get killed this spring?? I saw and heard more than were killed.

I think that our property could support more turkey's. We had higher numbers in the past. I am hoping for a good hatch this year.

[Multidigits]

Wonder how many gobblers were killed this spring and not Tele-checked. I know that their has to be a percentage used by the dept. to get some idea of total harvest?

How many gobblers did you see or hear on the property that you hunt that did not get killed this spring?? I saw and heard more than were killed.

I think that our property could support more turkey's. We had higher numbers in the past. I am hoping for a good hatch this year.

Feedman is pretty smart on turkeys. No doubt that lots of birds are being killed and not checked in. With the harvest being consistant, that number is also probably consistant. Being that the Dept. does not input a number for these birds into their computer model, they would have to be listed as "other mortality" in excess of legal hunting? As fro other mortality, it has to be fairly consistant, being that are predators are maxed out to carrying capacity as well.

I know for a fact that we have gobblers left. On the good days late in the season, we heard just as much gobbling as we did before the season. I know some of these were jakes. Next year, we should have plenty of jakes judged by the number of eggs in the nests that have been found.

[Willie]

Was there a Tele-Check in place for turkeys back in 2002?

[schuyler olt]

Was there a Tele-Check in place for turkeys back in 2002?

Yes there was.

[Valley Station]

Willie,
Hows Indiana's turkey season going??
Talked to some guys who had been fishin' small state lake in Perry county last week, they said they had to put in ear plugs to keep gobblin' turkeys from deafenin' them.

[Multidigits]

My guess is that MOST states would flat out love to see the trends that Ky. has generated in the last 5 years. Seems pretty darn consistant and in very good conditions.

[Willie]

Willie,
Hows Indiana's turkey season going??
Talked to some guys who had been fishin' small state lake in Perry county last week, they said they had to put in ear plugs to keep gobblin' turkeys from deafenin' them.

The hunting has slowed down considerably.

I tagged out the second day.

I'm running a turkey contest on my site (I'm not allowed to post the URL here) and I don't think anyone has killed a bird in over week. It was a pretty good season for the contestants. Out of 60 hunters 34 have scored.

A friend of mine is bowhunting my place and he is seeing a few in the fields late morning.

Perry county has a lot of birds..

[schuyler olt]

My guess is that MOST states would flat out love to see the trends that Ky. has generated in the last 5 years. Seems pretty darn consistant and in very good conditions.

Given the fact that many states (more than half, the last I heard, but that's been a while) are still restocking, I think they'd prefer a trend different than ours.

[Multidigits]

Given the fact that many states (more than half, the last I heard, but that's been a while) are still restocking, I think they'd prefer a trend different than ours.

Let's say then States in our region, say with Eastern turkeys only? I don't believe many states on our borders to the east and south are still restocking are they?

[ril7572]

I live on the Tennessee/Kentucky boarder. I have turkey hunted quite a bit in tennessee for the past several years. They offer some excellent turkey hunting. They also have a season that starts 2 weeks before ours, and continues 1 week after ours closes. For the past several years the have had a spring limit of 3 birds, this was raised to 4 this year. They still maintain a spring harvest of around 30,000 birds. It makes one wonder if added spring pressure really effects turkey populations:confused:

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/turkupdate.pdf

[Willie]

Last year Indiana moved some turkeys around, but that is not what I'd call "restocking".

[Willie]

........... It makes one wonder if added spring pressure really effects turkey populations:confused:

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/turkupdate.pdf

Probably not as long as it is gobblers only.

The hens are the ones that lay eggs.. ;)

There does need to be a sexual balance just like the deer herd only not near a 2 or 3 to 1..

[Multidigits]

I live on the Tennessee/Kentucky boarder. I have turkey hunted quite a bit in tennessee for the past several years. They offer some excellent turkey hunting. They also have a season that starts 2 weeks before ours, and continues 1 week after ours closes. For the past several years the have had a spring limit of 3 birds, this was raised to 4 this year. They still maintain a spring harvest of around 30,000 birds. It makes one wonder if added spring pressure really effects turkey populations:confused:

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/turkupdate.pdf

Amazing....considering that Tn. ha s a liberal crossbow season?

One of the reasons they raised their limit to 3 was to take pressure off of their WMA's, and put on to the private lands.

[schuyler olt]

Let's say then States in our region, say with Eastern turkeys only? I don't believe many states on our borders to the east and south are still restocking are they?

Most of the New England and Middle Atlantic states are moving birds. Ohio was moving some--I don't think they're importing them anymore. Michigan and Minnesota were also doing some, last I heard. It's not a major restoration effort in any of those states, but an effort to get birds into some areas where they are sparse.

There's been some suggestion of doing that here in Kentucky. An area in southwest Kentucky near the Tennessee line has good habitat but the bird numbers aren't great, and the folks down there have made periodic requests over the years.

[buckfever]

Tennesse's current turkey population is some 50,000 birds larger than Ky's. The figures I saw were between 270,000-300,000 birds.

I hope KDFWR keeps a watchful eye on Tennessee's population. I saw Tn's poach hatch was about 2.7 poults per hen in 2005, which I believe is substantially in excess of what we had in Ky. I'd like to see how their populations do in the future. With a 4 bird limit and a 36,000 bird harvest, it might provide some useful information as to how the flock responds. TN also has some interesting similarities to KY. The guy responsible for TN's turkey restoration retired a few years back, and a new administration is running the turkey show down there. It will be interesting to see whether TN's season and bag limit expansions keep pace with the resources.

Mike - I'm not sure whether the relatively modest harvest (if you can call 36,000 birds modest) with a 4 bird limit shows the true impact of hunting pressure. I think your point is a good one, and I think there's a theory that might support it. It's entirely possible that we could have a 6 week season in KY and still kill roughly the same amount of birds that we do now. The reason why is that we can expect our experienced hunters to harvest their bag limit along with a few here and there from novice hunters, but, in the end, a lot of would-be turkey hunters might simply get tired of not "tagging out" and just give up. If this is true, we would have a supply chain that exceeds our demand on the resources. Similar to the self-imposed restraints by many deer hunters in terms of shooting a bunch of does during gun season here in KY, there might not be a whole lot of hunters that have the desire to take the time and go out and shoot 4 turkeys during the six week season in TN. This is one way of viewing things, but I don't think anyone can pass judgment on TN until we see what happens there 5 years down the road. I remember when the bag limits in Alabama/Missouri were liberalized. I think those states ended up harvesting too many turkeys, and now they're trying to put the cat back in the bag. The biggest fear I have is that we make too many expansions for the sake of "record harvests" that we jeopardize our flock stability.

Tennessee does not have liberal fall turkey seasons for crossbows, bow and/or guns. Quotas are in place in most areas, and you can only take one bird (either sex) with archery/xbow equipment.

[Multidigits]

Most of the New England and Middle Atlantic states are moving birds. Ohio was moving some--I don't think they're importing them anymore. Michigan and Minnesota were also doing some, last I heard. It's not a major restoration effort in any of those states, but an effort to get birds into some areas where they are sparse.

There's been some suggestion of doing that here in Kentucky. An area in southwest Kentucky near the Tennessee line has good habitat but the bird numbers aren't great, and the folks down there have made periodic requests over the years.

SW Ky.--which counties don't have huntable flocks down there? I doubt seriously if every corner of Ky. will all be equal in terms of bird numbers ever in the future. It just won't happen, same as some counties won't have elk or vast numbers of deer.

[Valley Station]

Indiana is still in the "stocking" mode, with many counties closed and two(2) new counties opened this spring.

Tennessee has had four(4) bird spring limit for at least 20-years. One of the changes this year is that they may all be "private land or WMA " birds, now.
Use to be (2) private land and (2) WMA birds.
Tenn is out to sale license with reckless disreguard of the resource on some of their WMA's.

[ril7572]

Tennessee has had four(4) bird spring limit for at least 20-years. One of the changes this year is that they may all be "private land or WMA " birds, now.
Use to be (2) private land and (2) WMA birds.
Tenn is out to sale license with reckless disreguard of the resource on some of their WMA's.

Not so. The 4 bird ls not for WMA's. The spring limit a hunter can kill on WMA hunts is 2. Last year Tennessee's private land limit was 3.

The result has been a decrease of birds killed on WMA, a decrease of 16% from 2004 to 2005.

Feel free to read for yourself

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/05_spr_turkeydata.pdf

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/05_huntguide_spring_turkey.pdf

[Multidigits]

Tenn. -- 2005 "poach"(poult) count - 2.29 (the lowest count since 1980)
and 42% of their hens had NO poults, (highest on record)


Turkey boom over?


State's flocks are leveling out after record seasons
By BOB HODGE, hodge@knews.com

April 30, 2006

NASHVILLE - It appears the turkey boom in Tennessee is coming to an end, but that shouldn't be cause for alarm.
For decades, especially the past two, turkey hunters could go into the woods each spring and expect to find more turkeys than they did the year before. The total bag topped 1,000 for the first time in 1984, was over 10,000 in 1995 and broke 30,000 in 2002.
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/images/spacers/spacer.gif
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/images/spacers/spacer.gifhttp://www.knoxnews.com/kns/images/spacers/spacer.gifIn 2004, hunters bagged 34,000 birds, setting a record for the 21st consecutive year. The run ended when only 33,419 turkeys were checked in last season.
"Turkeys have fanned out to all of the available habitat," said Randy Huskey. "The population has reached a level and can't go any higher - Region II especially is maxed out - and we've even seen declines in some areas."
Huskey, turkey program coordinator for Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, isn't sounding an alarm. In fact, what's happening is proof that the statewide effort to repopulate wild turkeys has been fabulously successful.
He said that populations will continue to grow a bit in some counties, but, like the deer herd, the number of turkeys statewide will not see the types of increases hunters have grown accustomed to. Likewise, the number of hunters is expected to stay relatively flat.
That doesn't mean that 2006 or 2007 or 2012 won't go down as the record year.
"Instead of setting new records every year I think from now on you're going to have peaks and you're going to have some valleys," Huskey said.
It's a phenomenon being seen across the country as the growth of flocks begins to level out.
"Seven of the top 10 states (for annual turkey harvest) had a decline in 2005," Huskey said.
Despite falling short of a record, Tennessee's 2005 turkey harvest ranked eighth in the nation. Texas was first with 64,400 turkeys; Mississippi was second with 60,744 and Alabama third with 53,220.
Hunters in Tennessee also have suffered through a slight decline in populations that has nothing to do with hunting and management but everything to do with Mother Nature.
It takes 2.7 poults per hen for the population to maintain itself and two out of the last three years poult production across the state has been low. When they hatch, poults are vulnerable to all sorts of calamities, none more so than weather.
"Wet weather in June and July has hurt us," Huskey said. "If you have a rain event of 12 hours or longer poults just aren't going to survive.
"Any deviation from normal weather patterns impacts poult production."
As of Thursday, hunters had accounted for 27,832 turkeys this spring. Huskey believes the final tally will be more than 30,000, but fall short of setting a record.
Greene County has been the top producer with 881 birds bagged. Dickson is second with 808 and Giles third with 734. Region II has been tops with 12,808 turkeys while Region IV has given up 5,805.
Huskey also busted a few myths about turkey season.
Poll the state's nearly 100,000 turkey hunters and most would probably say peak gobbling happens sometime in April. Nope, gobbling is at its peak before the season even opens.
"We set the opener to catch the second peak," he said. "Peak gobbling is about the third week of March and we don't hunt then because we want the hens to breed."
Many hunters also believe hunting gets better - and more birds are killed - toward the middle of the season. The fact is the harvest peaks on opening day and, in most years, declines steadily as the season continues.
"Hunters killed just over 4,000 turkeys opening day across the state," Huskey said. "That's because you have a lot of people who hunt opening day and the birds aren't disrupted. They haven't seen their buddy get shot at that point."
So, does the hunting get better that second or third week? "The data just doesn't show that," Huskey said. "But talk to a hunter and he's going to say the hunting gets better." http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/outdoors/article/0,1406,KNS_326_4661190,00.html

[quackrstackr]

There's been some suggestion of doing that here in Kentucky. An area in southwest Kentucky near the Tennessee line has good habitat but the bird numbers aren't great, and the folks down there have made periodic requests over the years.

That's because a lot of idiots keep shooting them during the modern firearm deer season. That was one of the first areas to have turkeys restocked in this end of the state and they obliterated them during deer season well before they ever opened up the statewide turkey season. I saw it happen firsthand.

I have also deer hunted on a farm in the last 10 years where the landowner took it upon himself to fund restocking efforts on his farm... to my knowledge from friends that still hunt there, they are still being gunned down during deer season on surrounding farms and what few are there get an inordinate amount of trespasser attention during turkey season because it's one of the only pockets of turkeys left in the entire area.

Unless they ship in more than the poachers can knock off and or close season in that area until they can get established, spending much on restocking efforts for extreme SW KY would just be a waste of $ in my opinion.

[Bee]

Having hunted a lot of the states in the the south and the appalachians each spring since the 1960's, it is my opinion that Ky and Tenn have the best overall eastern hunting in those regions today. I have seen a good many spring sunrises. fwiw.

[Valley Station]

ril7572,
Open up and read the Tenn turkey regulations you posted.
In Tenn there are two types of WMA listed, those that are a quota hunt and those that are hunted per "state wide" regulations.
There are (17) "Quota WMA's" and (70 or so) "WMA open under state wide reg."
You can kill all four from the WMA's that fall within the state wide reg.
your limited to (2) birds on the Quota WMA's and other (2) must come from "state wide hunt for limit of (4) birds.

[Multidigits]

ril7572,
Open up and read the Tenn turkey regulations you posted.
In Tenn there are two types of WMA listed, those that are a quota hunt and those that are hunted per "state wide" regulations.
There are (17) "Quota WMA's" and (70 or so) "WMA open under state wide reg."
You can kill all four from the WMA's that fall within the state wide reg.
your limited to (2) birds on the Quota WMA's and other (2) must come from "state wide hunt for limit of (4) birds.

BAG LIMITS

A hunter may take a total of four bearded turkeys for the
spring season with the following restrictions:

• Statewide Season: One bearded turkey per day, not
to exceed four per season. This includes turkeys taken
on WMAs that are open with the statewide season and
bag limits (see special WMA section for details).

• WMA Hunts: One bearded turkey per person, per
hunt, not to exceed two per season, EXCEPT those
WMAs that are open with the statewide season and
bag limit. Birds taken on WMA quota hunts are considered
bonus birds and do not count toward statewide
bag limits. See the special WMA section for details.


• The total bag and possession limit shall not exceed four bearded turkeys per season on the statewide season
and WMAs combined. Example: If a hunter takes
three birds on the statewide season, he can only harvest
one WMA bird except where WMA birds are designated
as bonus birds. If he harvests two birds on WMAs
first, he can only take two on the statewide hunt.[/

[Valley Station]

Multi,
Your "redlined" note reference applies only to drawing type "Quota Hunt only WMA'S".
You can shoot (4) birds on Tenn WMA that goes by "state wide regulation".

[Multidigits]

Tennessee does not have liberal fall turkey seasons for crossbows, bow and/or guns. Quotas are in place in most areas, and you can only take one bird (either sex) with archery/xbow equipment.

Quota's apply for Fall gun hunts not fall archery hunts.

During the Fall GUN hunt 24 counties have a two bird limit, 38 have a 1 bird limit.

Crossbows have a 1 bird limit in all of those counties during the entire archery deer season.

[buckfever]

Quota's apply for Fall gun hunts not fall archery hunts.

During the Fall GUN hunt 24 counties have a two bird limit, 38 have a 1 bird limit.

Crossbows have a 1 bird limit in all of those counties during the entire archery deer season.

Hmmmm. . . . 1 bird with a xbow is a lot fewer that 4.

And how exactly does that fit into your prior post where you talked about how liberal TN was in terms of its fall xbow season for turkeys?

[Multidigits]

Hmmmm. . . . 1 bird with a xbow is a lot fewer that 4.

And how exactly does that fit into your prior post where you talked about how liberal TN was in terms of its fall xbow season for turkeys?

1 is one less than 2, if that's a lot to you then it's a lot to you.

Liberal as in liberal......what's a poach count?

[maxcam]

It takes 2.7 poults per hen for the population to maintain itself and two out of the last three years poult production across the state has been low.


There is one other statistic that needs to be addressed about Tennessee to which I dont have the answer......How many turkey hunters do they have and how many tags do they sell?

[Multidigits]

There is one other statistic that needs to be addressed about Tennessee to which I dont have the answer......How many turkey hunters do they have and how many tags do they sell?

They sell more tags than Ky. (100,000+) and Tennessee is only slightly larger than Ky in land mass (sq. miles)

2001 - 4 poults per hen
2002 - 3.8 poults per hen
2003 - 2.41 poults per hen
2004 - 2.99 poults per hen

2005 - 2.29 poults per hen

And they still expanded in several directions, and still maintained a good 2006 Spring harvest.

[aceoky]

I really tried to just let it go.......but there is simply no good reason to do so, ask for it, and well......

Who was it maxcam, that said, "when the spring turkey harvest is the worst ever; I'll make sure you all remember who told you so"???

That is without getting into some "issues" YOU Have crowes so loudly about "get a crossbow yet"??(sound familiar?)

NO; YOU weren't the ONLY one saying such things, but exactly who was "crowing the loudest" , on this among a couple other issues(the Dept, hold people at gunpoint and dictates) , I could go on, but I also don't see the need or reason, since I think it's obvious what is being said here.......

YOU made the point of "knowing" the Dept. was WRONG! YOU made the point of predicting a very bad spring season 2006; YOU said you'd tell us, "I told you so", but you can't, and one more "small point", fwiw.....

When you post things here,they have a habit of being brought back up, especially since it's so easy to "repost" them in the future, when the FACTS are kwown.....while luckinly(for you) some of these have gotten removed, along with the threads that were also there, no doubt several such claims are still there for all to see........

SOOO , unless you're really wishing to have YOUR own "crowing" brought back into "public light" for all to see, I'd suggest, that those who CROW the loudest, don't cast stones, at others....... :D

As for the number of "crossbowers" BF "in five years", with full expansion as YOU mentioned.........Tennessee AND VA, had several new ones there very first year, and I didn't see ANY "bad things" happen, and with the success rates right where the compound is, I have to wonder IF there IS a "real issue" about the "numbers"......

IF there is, then I have to wonder WHY none that are "so concerned" are NOT working on removing the compounds from these seasons........same success rates, same effective hunting range......IF one is allowed both should be, conversly, IF one is NOT allowed, niether should be, since we're talking about "effective" here, right??

Though some think more archers is a 'good thing' for our sport, which is under attack by the HSUS, among others, I have to question the "logic", of why one is "OK", the other is not, with them being almost identical in the things that matter.......e.g. success rates, effective range, though obviously a "second shot" clearly goes to the compound, as do a few other things , such as weight, ease in handling, etc., IOW , seems to be a "wash" at best......

SO IMHO, even IF you're correct in five years (we won't know at this time, even IF you are obvioulsy) more crossbow hunters in of of itself, is NO cause for alarm, at least not any more than the same number of compound hunters joining in........

[Multidigits]

the turkey flock and the elk herd are doing good, inspite of Max's(and his thundering herd) efforts to discredit both programs and the administration.

[buckfever]

Who was it maxcam, that said, "when the spring turkey harvest is the worst ever; I'll make sure you all remember who told you so"???
.

Ace - You keep saying that Maxcam (and others) made these statements and/or similar comments about the "the turkey population being in dire straits". Would you mind posting a link to any thread that says this, b/c I frankly can't find them and don't recall the conversations going the way you are depicting them.

Although I didn't go back and review all the xbow threads, I remember the debates (at least as they applied to turkeys) being primarily about whether expanding harvest opportunity at every turn (not just w/ xbows) might not be in our turkey population's best long-term interest given 3 years of declining spring harvests.

I just don't remember anyone ever saying that this spring's turkey harvest would be the "worst ever" or that our turkey population was on the brink of extinction.

[aceoky]

BF, it's there, for all to see, and in fact I told him, IF things "were that bad", perhaps we should look toward the gun season(s), since obviously, they killed more birds, he then accused me of saying I was "for opportunity", but now trying to "take away" from gun hunters to try to include crossbows! (of all the absurd claims), if/when I get the "extra time", since you asked, I'll gladly do it, but it won't add anything positive to this....only more problems,

I only mentioned it so that perhaps he'd think before calling others "crowing" etc.... NOT to try to drag the whole silly matter up again.......think on that , IF you feel it's needed(and I don't KEEP on.......I said it once fwiw, others have said so, I only confirmed it).......

I would think the mere mention of what was said, would be enough, without having to bring it all up again????:confused:

[buckfever]

BF, it's there, for all to see, and in fact I told him, IF things "were that bad", perhaps we should look toward the gun season(s), since obviously, they killed more birds, he then accused me of saying I was "for opportunity", but now trying to "take away" from gun hunters to try to include crossbows! (of all the absurd claims), if/when I get the "extra time", since you asked, I'll gladly do it, but it won't add anything positive to this....only more problems,

I only mentioned it so that perhaps he'd think before calling others "crowing" etc.... NOT to try to drag the whole silly matter up again.......think on that , IF you feel it's needed(and I don't KEEP on.......I said it once fwiw, others have said so, I only confirmed it).......

I would think the mere mention of what was said, would be enough, without having to bring it all up again????:confused:

Ace, please believe that I'm 100% genuinely sincere when I say I don't want to get you started on this again. . . . .but (and I hate to even say that) I looked back through some of those threads and couldn't find a single post by anyone, anywhere, where someone said things "were that bad".

If "it's there, for all to see", just guide me to the "there" so I can find it and see it for myself. Thanks.

[aceoky]

BF; here's "one pointing in that direction", but I'm certain I can find more "to the point", given a bit more time

http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15610&page=2&highlight=crossbows+concern+resources

For the sake of "space" I'll only post the relevent parts.....

Furthermore you or anyone else can argue that there won’t be an impact on the resource. But you do not know.
Former commissioner Bennet didn't know, not any commissioner or biologist. They do not know how many hunters this proposal will generate nor do they know what the impact on the resource will be

Ohio does not have the opportunity to harvest up to 6 birds a year. Why

The fall archery season takes places after the fall gun season in Ohio. Why...?(again, "concern" for Ky's turkey flock, and the crossbow)still doubt it??

Same thread, next page:

Max"Willie what do you think about a season that starts from November gun season to the end of archery season. with a reduction in the number of fall turkey tags to one per weapon and a revisit to the reg down the road when some viable data has been collected"(YET here again, he's saying what?? IF NOT the turkey flock will be in "dire straits" if the expansion is allowed, AND he's already concerned about them, rest assured, I'll post more if you're still not convinced) :)

#28 05-08-2005, 10:26 PM
maxcam
10 Pointer



The situation with the turkeys is very critical. (NOW what??) Does that prove it to your satisfaction, OR should I bring out the real damaging proof?? Up to you....

[aceoky]

BF , I don't blame you for not wanting me back on this subject again, let's see

" Under the bus, to NEVER be mentioned or revisted; again" wasn't it? :D

THE simple point is; some have made serious accusations in the past, and IF they don't want to be reminded of them, then it may just be wise to "let sleeping dogs lie".....

[Multidigits]

Let it go Ace, everybody knows what he said multiple times. BF can do his own research if he wants. Now, everybody knows that he was wrong. He also said he was better qualified than Jim Lane to make management decisions. I doubt anyone really believes that except maybe his herd.

[buckfever]

BF , I don't blame you for not wanting me back on this subject again, let's see

" Under the bus, to NEVER be mentioned or revisted; again" wasn't it? :D

THE simple point is; some have made serious accusations in the past, and IF they don't want to be reminded of them, then it may just be wise to "let sleeping dogs lie".....

Ace - Forgive me. Maybe you posted the wrong thread by mistake or maybe I'm just not very intuitive or bright, but I still can't manage to find posts by Max that are even remotely along the lines of what you claim he's been saying.

[aceoky]

Yep , you're right Multi, most know the truth, no real point in rubbing salt in anyone's wounds......

[buckfever]

Let it go Ace, everybody knows what he said multiple times. BF can do his own research if he wants. Now, everybody knows that he was wrong. He also said he was better qualified than Jim Lane to make management decisions. I doubt anyone really believes that except maybe his herd.

Hey, here's another one that I can't seem to find.

I surely don't remember saying I was "better qualified than Jim Lane to make management decisions." Can you post up that link for me???

Naw, don't bother. We both know you couldn't ever find it, so just take your time and think up a snappy non-responsive retort about "jack-legged attorneys whose reputations are the line" or the like, so no one will focus on the fact that you make this stuff up as you go.

[buckfever]

Yep , you're right Multi, most know the truth, no real point in rubbing salt in anyone's wounds......

Well, under other circumstances I'd let this go, but if Max said what you say he said, I'd like to see it.

I'm sure Max wouldn't object to you "rubbing salt" in his wounds.

[aceoky]

BF: not even

"The situation with the turkeys is very critical"

Well then,

#93 05-15-2005, 11:58 PM
maxcam
10 Pointer

Dont bring up the biologists. Lane and Yancey are whipin boys for Hensley and dont impress me. You talk about them as if they are in the same status as George Wright of Dr. Grimes........Please, dont insult my intelligence.
(seems to me, he's stating as a fact, he KNOWS more about turkeys than they do??)

he is very concerned with the spring gobbler. In light of several bad hatch years along with several down years in turkey harvest, we are very close to losing spring opportunity......." That means loss of tags folks.


(guess that one doesn't prove it either??):rolleyes:


#105 05-19-2005, 01:40 PM
maxcam
10 Pointer

In 2004 there were 20,849 gobblers harvested in the spring season(with a beard 7inches or >). Taking that figure you can derive that the KDFW estimates there are between 27,104 to 29,189 mature gobblers going into the spring turkey season...So lets average these two numbers to build in any if's or but's either side might throw out there in disputing my model .........That average would be aproximatley 28,147 birds for spring hunters going into the spring season....Now take away the number of birds killed and you have 7298 mature gobblers going into the fall season statewide.

So we have 7298 gobblers to hunt in the fall. Lets see what we can do to that lucky bunch........In the fall of 2004 there were 2747 males harvested, of which 1589 longbeards.

That takes the number of gobblers down to 5709 gobblers statewide to survive the winter and wait for the the remaining jakes, of which only 50 percent will make it though the winter, to mate the following spring.
Gentlemen that leaves somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 3 year and older gobblers per county.

Jim Lane suggests we can increase the fall harvest 3 fold. That would eliminate all but 2500 2 year and older gobblers statewide going into the winter months. Thats on average of about 20-25 gobblers per county.

If you will notice the KDFW changed the difinition of a Jake from a bird with a 7 inch beard to a bird with a 6 inch beard.........Yet we still managed to kill more Jakes by definition this year than in 2004......This tells me that there were not as many 2 year and older birds and that we have put even more pressure on the 2 year olds for 2006. That along with the Saturday opener should prove to be another terrible year for 2 year old and up birds.....That takes us into 2007......If we have a good hatch this year and its shaping up to be that, I will expect to see a decent harvest.

My concern is for the hatch in 2006 though.

We will open 2008 with the first Sat.closest to the 15th and that is April 12. That is a full 8 days before many turkey biologists feel breeding in this part of the country is done. That could be as catostrophic to the hatch as rain and cold weather.(I'm guessing he meant 2006 NOT 2008, simple enough typo)

But I am smart enough to know that in a worse case scenario it could be fatal to our turkey flock

We are that stressed on turkey opportunity

How can anyone sit back and hear this and say 'Hell lets open a 134 day season for potentially several thousand people that will have a success rate of close to 50 percent on turkey' hand them two tags and say 'I hope they are around next year?'


The simple fact is if we are not near overharvest on spring birds

I really dont think guys understand the fragilty of turkeys and/or how easily they can be overharvested........IMHO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by maxcam : 05-19-2005 at 05:57 PM.

AND this "jewel"

#168 05-26-2005, 03:18 AM
maxcam
10 Pointer



I have expressed alot of concern for the Saturday opener......As well as alot of other folks........This crossbow issue is the straw that broke the camels back with the sportsmen of this state. The fact of the matter is still the same.......We cannot afford to harvest another 3000-4000 gobblers that a Saturday opener may produce from another added weekend but more importantly in 2008 the season will start some 8 days before peek breeding will be done........ That will reduce the available male birds for breeding at the front end of the season by about what 10000 birds 2 years old and up............

AND :
#14 03-26-2006, 08:41 PM
maxcam
10 Pointer

It might be the fact that in 2004 they switched to a six inch beard to define a Jake versus a 7 inch beard like they did in 2003 OR maybe there arent as many male birds to harvest as there were in 1999.....

I really enjoy hearing the double speak of beauracracy.....

The turkey flock has leveled off but and even though there have been several less than desireable hatches recently, we will bounce back if we are lucky.....

Yeah and if a frog had wings he wouldnt bump his arse when he hops.....


#69 04-05-2006, 02:38 AM
maxcam
10 Pointer

Good weather lonely Toms and some great shots have produced a good youth weekend.....What was taken this past weekend wont be there on the 15th so I wouldnt hold my breath on a bumper year just yet.....








Again there is many, many more, IF you really want to know feel free to look, I've proven, they actually exist, and plenty of them....

It's not my "job" to do the research for you, you said "back it up", and I have, the rest is "up to you" IF you really want to know.....it IS there, for YOU and anyone else who wishes to see it.......

[Willie]

You fellers have very short memories....



.

[buckfever]

I dunno, Ace. I think you can do better.

You attribute lots of things to Max that I'm still not seeing in those posts. In most of what you posted, he's griping about moving the opener off of April 15 to the closest Saturday. I thought the KDFWR biologists recommended against this move for the exact same reasons cited by Max.

And to be honest as I sit here today, I can't say I disagree with a lot of the things he says in those posts (except I'm not quite so pessimistic that we're on the brink of going down to 1 spring tag).

You highlight words like "catastrophic" and "fatal" but you conveniently leave out the context.

He used the words "could be catastrophic" in the context of the impact of a pre-April 15th opener coupled with a bad hatch. We haven't yet had a pre-April 15th opener, so those concerns haven't ripened yet.

He also said that "the worst case scenario" (poor hatch coupled with an overharvest caused by Saturday opener before peak breeding) might prove to be "fatal" to our turkey flock. Although "fatal" might be a little strong, it was clearly qualified, and even if it wasn't, I'm not sure how you can quite tell him how wrong he is at this stage. (A) We haven't had a pre-April 15th opener yet; and (B) We don't know what this year's harvest will bring; and (C) We don't know what the 2006 hatch will be like.

[quackrstackr]

You fellers have very short memories....



.

and too much spare time on their hands......

:D

[aceoky]

Any way/how YOU care to slice it BF, maxcam HAS "preached" gloom and doom over the turkey herd for some time, including even after the youth hunt this season......I posted SOME of that, not all, nor the worst (for what should be obvious reasons, perhaps to your dismay) so be it......

IF you want to see more, a couple simple little searchs will suffice(and then some).....POINT being, he has no reason to "call crowing" after he promised to show everyone and remind them " I told you so".......now that he was not correct in any of his predictions for this spring's season(including some made this spring).........he says some pointing his being wrong out is "crowing", then asks "did you get that crossbow yet"(his crowing as anyone can see, about his part in this whole "mess")......Can't have it "both ways".......

[schuyler olt]

Y'all can continue this spitting contest about what Max did or didn't say all you want.

But here's the thing. I don't think there is much question that because of the poor hatches the last couple of years, we're looking toward at least one more season where two year old birds won't be as abundant as in the past. To the extent we keep taking roughly the same amount of birds (which is really what these numbers show), we'll be taking greater percentages of older birds, which are typically the breeders, and there will be fewer young birds to replace those. All this adds up to the POTENTIAL that given another bad hatch in the next couple of years, we could see a decline in the quality of hunting in areas of the state, particularly those that have a lot of hunting pressure.

Will we get back to 1970s levels? Heck no. We might not have even a noticeable decline. But we ought to be thinking about possible changes to address the issue. For example, I know of several people that self-imposed one bird limits because they know that their hunting areas are not at capacity and they want to see them get there.

It ain't about the type of weapon or the length of the season or whatever. It's about thinking about how to deal with a probable situation before it becomes a reality. We need to, because the states that didn't have seen that the rebound from a decline is a very, very slow process.

[Valley Station]

From turkey harvest I've seen this spring, a higher per centage of 3+ year old turkeys and fewer jakes(14% vs. 28%) than past seasons. Going to be tougher huntin' Spring of 2007.
Good news, with last winters heavy mast, deer and turkey both, are in great shape for reproduction this spring. Big clutches of eggs being seen and deer held antlers awfully late. Hope turkeys recovery as fast as squirrels have.
Let's hope the weather cooperates next month.

[schuyler olt]

I'm with you on that, Valley. I sure hope they don't hatch during the next seven days! They shouldn't, but a lot of folks think they may have gotten an early start.

[turk2di]

I'm with you on that, Valley. I sure hope they don't hatch during the next seven days! They shouldn't, but a lot of folks think they may have gotten an early start.
Im one of them on the hatching early. But thankfully they hatch over a period of couple weeks! Todays weather will be hell on new poults that R out!

[WBBP]

Every bird we killed this year was a 2 year old except one, which was probably a 3-4 year old. I did see fewer jakes than in past. Back in 2002-2003, there were several groups of 10-12 jakes that roamed my place, this year the biggest group I saw was 3.

I think the turkeys maxed out on my farm in 2002-2003. I have been seeing much smaller flocks since then. Don't me wrong, there are plenty here, but not like before when 200 flew down from one roosting area. My estimates at the times was that my farm held approximately 500 birds. It was really a sight to see, but I think it was a little crowded.

I had actually approached Finn 209 back in 2003 about the Department trapping and relocating some then since IMO, there were too many then. Every since then, it appears they have dispersed and my numbers are down, but at a good level.

The low amounts of jakes do concern me. I just took one turkey this year, but me and a friend could have taken many more if we had wanted.

K

[turk2di]

Every bird we killed this year was a 2 year old except one, which was probably a 3-4 year old. I did see fewer jakes than in past. Back in 2002-2003, there were several groups of 10-12 jakes that roamed my place, this year the biggest group I saw was 3.

I think the turkeys maxed out on my farm in 2002-2003. I have been seeing much smaller flocks since then. Don't me wrong, there are plenty here, but not like before when 200 flew down from one roosting area. My estimates at the times was that my farm held approximately 500 birds. It was really a sight to see, but I think it was a little crowded.

I had actually approached Finn 209 back in 2003 about the Department trapping and relocating some then since IMO, there were too many then. Every since then, it appears they have dispersed and my numbers are down, but at a good level.

The low amounts of jakes do concern me. I just took one turkey this year, but me and a friend could have taken many more if we had wanted.

K
HUH? ZAT u Kalen???????

[Multidigits]

First off, there's no possible chance of killing all the gobblers in an area....just won't happen. Even under extreme hunting pressure. Hasn't happened at the WMA's that get hunted hard, and it sure won't happen on private lands.

We have left a bunch of gobblers on our leases, not by choice, but because they were hard to kill. Still plenty to carry on.

Will there be fewer 2 yr. olds next year??? Sure will. Will it be a disaster???? No. Here's why. There will be an extra crop of jakes next year, judging from the enormous nests sizes that have been seen under the hens. Hens are in great condition, and the poults will be older than normal. A lot of these jakes will be gobbling by April 15 next year.

As for not enough older breeding birds in the flock, where are they going to go? They won't disappear, they are there now, and most will make it through to next year. We'll kill a couple in the fall, and work on the hens. Our farmers are asking for it, and we have too many.

The flock is in good shape, and it will carry on.

Kalen brings up a good point. Turkeys have a enormous range and won't stay around if food is short. When too many get to be too many, they will head for greener pastures. The large acorn crop helped but kept the birds in the woods where they weren't seen. As soon as the bean fields get up, they will be back in droves.

[aceoky]

Y'all can continue this spitting contest about what Max did or didn't say all you want.

But here's the thing. I don't think there is much question that because of the poor hatches the last couple of years, we're looking toward at least one more season where two year old birds won't be as abundant as in the past. To the extent we keep taking roughly the same amount of birds (which is really what these numbers show), we'll be taking greater percentages of older birds, which are typically the breeders, and there will be fewer young birds to replace those. All this adds up to the POTENTIAL that given another bad hatch in the next couple of years, we could see a decline in the quality of hunting in areas of the state, particularly those that have a lot of hunting pressure.

Will we get back to 1970s levels? Heck no. We might not have even a noticeable decline. But we ought to be thinking about possible changes to address the issue. For example, I know of several people that self-imposed one bird limits because they know that their hunting areas are not at capacity and they want to see them get there.

It ain't about the type of weapon or the length of the season or whatever. It's about thinking about how to deal with a probable situation before it becomes a reality. We need to, because the states that didn't have seen that the rebound from a decline is a very, very slow process.

Well, I can agree with at least most of that; and *I* don't even care about what "was said", however, Kalen was "spot on" with what he said, and maxcam, shouldn't be the one who questions "crowing" at least IMHO.......he's not "in the best position" to do so, as K pointed, out rather well.....it was then things "went south", not for mentioning an unquestionable fact.......as was "proposed"......and most here know that......

He's too quick, himself for one to "crow" (about the crossbow issue, for one, the Dept for yet another) to "cast such stones" at least in MY view.....so, even though I protested, I posted some proof, again NOT the "worst" of the ones, that I could have by NO means.....but enough to prove exactly what Kalen had said, had much merit....as it did and does, THAT is the extent of my part in any of this.......no more.....no less.......

When YOU are guilty of always questioning the Dept, AND make "predictions" that YOU say will PROVE you're correct, (about the Dept NOT knowing what they're doing , AND NOT caring about the resources.......as he did........)well, you had better hope.....that you are......and when you add to that the "threat" of I'll tell you "I told you so", what should anyone expect????:rolleyes:

WE all know some of the "concern for the resources" were 100% unfounded.......Walt even mentioned he never "played that card"........YET we're supposed to believe, according to a poster, that the turkeys are in "grave danger" AND that c-bow expansion would totaly "decimate" the flocks.......NO sale.....

Had he not said, all of those things, it would have never been an issue, but this "holding guns to heads"(anyone ever heard such things??) and "dictate"........because this time they did not agree with him and his "group"....c'mon Sky you know the Dept. is NOT like that.......in those same posts I quoted him, he admits the Dept "tabled things" so the NWTF and others could "poll their membership"and "go from there" NOW he's saying the Dept IS "out of control" and needs "more regulation" including a longer period of time between meetings!!! There IS much more, but anyone can see, this has nothing to do with any other factor, BUT to "get back" at the Dept. the same one YOU and many of us, have worked with for years, and know they are not as some want to portray them.....THAT is an "issue", that I take "issue" with.....so some didn't get "their way", they couldn't "bully" the Dept......big deal.........HOW many times did HE say he was doing things for the "vast majority"?? Overlooking two surveys to the contrary?? I won't go on, the ONLY point IS.....

HE shouldn't question the Dept's "stance" so often after making "threats", of what "will be"......when he's proven incorrect.....he's wrong........THAT is "that".....no more and NO less.....

Some may even agree with some points that he's made(even me) BUT that does NOT excuse, the "other things".....

AND IMHO......."trashing our Dept", and OUR biologists, is not only a "bad thing", but can in the end serve only the Anti-Hunting groups..........THAT, is a "part" I want NO part or parcel in......and I'm quite certain, that I"m far from being alone.....

He's NO doubt made some good and valid points, however there is NO need in "trashing" OUR Dept. to do so, he thinks that helps him and his stance, I don't and won't agree....ever.....IF that makes me "a bad person", so be it.....I did NOT however, drag his many posts "through the mud" as I could have, and having been "called" on it, many would have, I refuse to do so.....as I keep sayiing(and it seems to fall on "deaf ears")

*I* would love to "move on" and work together, UNITED......as ONE group, as I feel it should be.....however, posts like "crow, crow" etc. Have NO place in doing that........anyone can easily see that.....(especially when he mentions his crossbow "victory")....:rolleyes:

[maxcam]

Buck

I appreciate your response to the ad libbing being done by the new editor in chief.

If he thinks that dropping the hunter success of this state by 20 percent is a good thing then let him keep talking……

I stand behind what I said and the numbers bare out what Im saying…..We killed more birds this year than ever……Is that good news? I don’t think so…..

For those of you that think harvesting the same number of birds this year as in 2002 is fantastic then explain to me why 15000 hunters given the extra days, a weekend opener and stellar weather couldn’t harvest more than 500 birds above the 2002 total…..We had more birds in the flock than in 2002 supposedly. You would think with more hunters and more days with more birds would have been just what the doctor ordered to beat the old record by several thousand….Why not? If I don’t know then perhaps you can tell us all Ace!

Ace you can misquote me and misrepresent me all you want……It doesn’t bother me in the least…. Just explain to everyone why the harvest was soo great given the fact that 1 in 5 hunters that hunted in 2002 didn’t harvest a bird this year…..

[Feedman]

Buck


We had more birds in the flock than in 2002 supposedly. You would think with more hunters and more days with more birds would have been just what the doctor ordered to beat the old record by several thousand….

Just explain to everyone why the harvest was soo great given the fact that 1 in 5 hunters that hunted in 2002 didn’t harvest a bird this year…..

I don't remember how many birds that I killed in 2002. I killed 2 in 2006. I think that hunter success may be down due to the fact that turkeys are getting harder to hunt. These older birds have gotten a good education over the years. Sure you still have some on certain days that will run right into your gun barrel. Alot are more cautious and takes a lot of work to get them to committ and come in.
Just my 2 cents.

[Multidigits]

I stand behind what I said and the numbers bare out what Im saying…..We killed more birds this year than ever……Is that good news? I don’t think so…..



Case closed! Thanks Ace for bringing it out. :cool:

[coondog]

The amount of turkeys that are killed, seen, heard on any given year can be influenced by so many factors. Fact of the matter is, we are facing global climate change which is causing manic weather. I heard turkeys gobbling all winter this year hard. A lot I talked to, esp those who hunt wooded turkey habitat heard little gobbling and the birds were hard to work. We have had at least 4 seasons the last few years that have NOT been normal. Turkeys are just like deer in that they have a breeding period that can be concentrated or spread out. With the odd ball weather both deer and turkey breeding has been all over the map in terms of timing and intensity. I hunted LBL and around Bernheim in Nelson from when I was 15yo til I was 32 (I am now 34). I watched the turkey populations peak around berheim in the 90's and the settle to a smaller level. The woods are scratched down and the deer overbrowsed there as well. Deer populations there have gone down as well. I am noticing more turkeys around farms that have field habitat now and had better luck hunting those areas this year. I agree hunters can infuence the flock and that we need to keep an eye on it. This telecheck system in my mind sucks for collecting data and people may be abusing it worse and worse every year. Turkeys are expanding in some areas and declining in others, the weather is getting odder, the telecheck could be getting abused worse every year, some years the season is on the turkey "rut" some times it is not. Turkeys that are in the woodlands have plateaued and perhaps gone down becuase of habitat. Also I agree that turkeys in the old habitat areas are harder to hunt and call in now. All the dumb ones got shot.Lol. Let's not just point our fingers one way here...

[ryan hickey]

i reckon that "I was wrong" is just to hard to spell.... WOW:rolleyes:

[buckfever]

i reckon that "I was wrong" is just to hard to spell.... WOW:rolleyes:

Speaking of grammar, it's "too hard to spell".

[Multidigits]

Speaking of grammar, it's "too hard to spell".

as in "poach count" Hard to believe Mr. Grammer Perfect made a spelling boo boo??? :eek:

[Willie]

Maxcam,

How many turkey kills this year would it take for you to say "I was wrong"??

A record year is not good enough??

Post us up a number.....

[Valley Station]

If Kentucky adds ten(10) additional days to 2007 spring turkey season and harvest a "new record harvest" with 200 additional birds, will this mean our flock is improving?? Or will we just be harvesting a higher per centage of the Toms??? Proper flock management- Right or wrong??

[buckfever]

Willie -I don't know why you guys are so hell bent on telling Max he was wrong.

I can't speak for Max, but I'd guess it's going to take at least a few years to see what impact our current harvest levels (and the poor recent hatches) will have on our future overall flock.

Personally, I think it's short-sighted to look at this year's overall spring harvest and say "We had a record year, so everything must be great." We had the longest season ever, the most weekends ever, a Saturday opener, great weather, mild winter and abundant winter mast, and the only reason we had the record harvest was because of that extra time and extra weekend.

If you try to strip away some of the differences between the last 4-5 seasons, we're probably down a little bit from the early 2000's. I don't think there's anything to get too excited or pessimistic about, but it's ridiculous for people to say it's obvious our flock is in great shape for the future.

Under the current season structures and harvest levels, I'd say it's a safer bet to say that we're headed for a 1 bird limits than a 3 bird limit.

[Willie]

Personally, I think it's short-sighted to look at this year's overall spring harvest and say "We had a record year, so everything must be great."

But it was OK to look at the few past seasons and declare a gloom and doom is coming in order to shut crosbows out of the achery season?

This year's predicted gloom and doom didn't happen, did it?

[ryan hickey]

Speaking of grammar, it's "too hard to spell".

i would say that too if i were u. right AFTER i admitted i was wrong ;) . is it REALLY that hard for u? WHOOPS, i forgot to capitalize the first letter of that sentence....:rolleyes:

[ryan hickey]

Willie -I don't know why you guys are so hell bent on telling Max he was wrong.




i DO, because he WAS WRONG - along with alot more of u guys....

[Valley Station]

I thought for 2007 the crossbow season had been extended with Oct. 1 opener and end of December was a done deal.
Then a year later "phase 2 of the plan" would have crossbow season coinsiding with archery season, beginning in September.
Have I been misinformed?? Is this still the "plan"??

[buckfever]

i DO, because he WAS WRONG - along with alot more of u guys....

Ryan, I apologize for commenting on your grammar. I knew better. I was fully aware that you had absolutely nothing of substance to offer, so I should've exercised better judgment and simply ignored you.

I'll save any future responses for your UK threads in the community forum.

[buckfever]

I thought for 2007 the crossbow season had been extended with Oct. 1 opener and end of December was a done deal.
Then a year later "phase 2 of the plan" would have crossbow season coinsiding with archery season, beginning in September.
Have I been misinformed?? Is this still the "plan"??

Yes, that is a plan, but it's probably better to call it UCBK's plan, not KDFWR's plan.

[WBBP]

Buckfever, Hickey called you on your spelling mistake and now you are going after him for no substance. Kinda hard isn't it :confused: I usually try to not mention spelling errors because I am afraid it will come back to bite me.

Of course, if it is Multi, he deserves it....BTW, interesting post yesterday on shooting the geese from the window, can't believe anyone would ever do that or brag about it if they did ???????????:eek:

[ryan hickey]

Ryan, I apologize for commenting on your grammar. I knew better. I was fully aware that you had absolutely nothing of substance to offer, so I should've exercised better judgment and simply ignored you.

I'll save any future responses for your UK threads in the community forum.


u asked a question - i did my best to answer it. sorry it wasn't the answer u were lookin for....:rolleyes:

[Valley Station]

Why are the crossbow people so upset about a discussion on spring turkey harvest results relative to the health of the flock??
Crossbows weren't going to have any impact on spring turkey harvest, nobody was going to carry crossbow when they can use a shotgun.
Deciding to use a crossbow verses using a stick or compound during the fall turkey season may an entirely different story. With little interest in fall turkey
huntin' by most Kentuckians, should have little impact on the flock.
I'm more concerned about the S.O.B.s that shootin' turkey over a corn pile during the deer gun season.

[Multidigits]

Why are the crossbow people so upset about a discussion on spring turkey harvest results relative to the health of the flock??
Crossbows weren't going to have any impact on spring turkey harvest, nobody was going to carry crossbow when they can use a shotgun.
Deciding to use a crossbow verses using a stick or compound during the fall turkey season may an entirely different story. With little interest in fall turkey
huntin' by most Kentuckians, should have little impact on the flock.
I'm more concerned about the S.O.B.s that shootin' turkey over a corn pile during the deer gun season.

Good question...no good answer. Spring harvest, or the misinformation about it and the fears that were attempted to be inserted into the mix by a few from the 3RD DISTRICT were a part of the crossbow season discussions. Those fears related to taking too many birds in the fall, which is never going to happen. Not when you consider that a large portion of the flock in the fall is surplus.

But you already knew all of that....so I don't know what your looking for in an answer????

Bottom line is that the flock as been a steady producer for the last 5 years or so. The future is bright, inspite of the changes that have come and gone. change will continue, and the flock will always be in healthy shape. Thanks to our managers and their expert handling of the program.

[buckfever]

Buckfever, Hickey called you on your spelling mistake and now you are going after him for no substance. Kinda hard isn't it :confused: I usually try to not mention spelling errors because I am afraid it will come back to bite me.

Of course, if it is Multi, he deserves it....BTW, interesting post yesterday on shooting the geese from the window, can't believe anyone would ever do that or brag about it if they did ???????????:eek:

Actually, Kalen, that isn't right. I was just defending Maxcam. Ryan didn't correct anything I posted or spelled. After Maxcam posted his thoughts, Ryan sarcastically responded: "i reckon that 'I was wrong' is just to hard to spell.... WOW"

If he wants to get really cute by suggesting that Max can't spell, he might want to have a better handle on the english language before he does it again.

Just because Max was against the crossbow initiative doesn't give Ryan (or anyone else who wanted it) carte blanche to jump his ship everytime he makes a post or states an opinion. This is especially true of people whom otherwise add no value to a particular discussion, and unless I missed reading something, Ryan has added nothing (zero, nada, zilch) of value to this conversation. He just wants to get in his potshots, which are completely unnecessary.

You and I disagreed about the crossbows, but our posts to one another have been courteous.

p.s. I probably am being a little hard on him. Maybe, some of my latent aggressiveness towards Ryan was triggered by his numerous anti-Duke posts about their "whiney-ass players" (alluding to Duke players generally and J.J. Redick specifically). He probably wasn't even born yet, but, if he was, he obviously forgot about the pictures of the entire UK team posted in all the papers after Laettner's shot in the 1992 Regional Finals.

[buckfever]

p.s. 2

Nice try, but you aren't gonna get me to bite on the geese!!!!

[ryan hickey]

Actually, Kalen, that isn't right. I was just defending Maxcam. Ryan didn't correct anything I posted or spelled. After Maxcam posted his thoughts, Ryan sarcastically responded: "i reckon that 'I was wrong' is just to hard to spell.... WOW"

If he wants to get really cute by suggesting that Max can't spell, he might want to have a better handle on the english language before he does it again.

Just because Max was against the crossbow initiative doesn't give Ryan (or anyone else who wanted it) carte blanche to jump his ship everytime he makes a post or states an opinion. This is especially true of people whom otherwise add no value to a particular discussion, and unless I missed reading something, Ryan has added nothing (zero, nada, zilch) of value to this conversation. He just wants to get in his potshots, which are completely unnecessary.

You and I disagreed about the crossbows, but our posts to one another have been courteous.

p.s. I probably am being a little hard on him. Maybe, some of my latent aggressiveness towards Ryan was triggered by his numerous anti-Duke posts about their "whiney-ass players" (alluding to Duke players generally and J.J. Redick specifically). He probably wasn't even born yet, but, if he was, he obviously forgot about the pictures of the entire UK team posted in all the papers after Laettner's shot in the 1992 Regional Finals.

about the spelling comment - was only trying to say that things would be easier for maxcam if he would only admit that he was wrong about turkeys - and i think u know that. i think its fairly obvious that his thoughts about this turkey season have been proven wrong. i'm sure max can spell - and prolly even take up for himself.

ok, so what did your last post add to the value of this conversation? u even had to go all the way back to 1992 to rub in your duke victory to make yourself feel better :confused: ? BTW, i AM old enuff to remember the last time duke played in rupp (lost to iu in the ncaas), and boy, i will NEVER forget the crying in those pics :cool: . i also remember the game they lost to uk when tubby outcoached coach k in 1998.

methinks u r reaching a bit far here BF, don't let your dislike of me (and my dislike for your beloved basketball team) cloud your judgment. just so u know there are ALOT of folks in KY that hate duke....:rolleyes:

[maxcam]

Maxcam,

How many turkey kills this year would it take for you to say "I was wrong"??

A record year is not good enough??

Post us up a number.....

If you want to compare the 2002 spring turkey season to the 2006 spring turkey season then you should make an honest attempt to do so....That is my point....

Yes I agree that the first 21 days 2006 was above the last 3 years harvest. We had a "good" hatch in 2004 so one should expect that the numbers for 2006 should be better than 2003-2005.

The fact is we harvested less than 500 birds with a Saturday start date. We had 4 weekends to hunt turkey, with exceptional weather, better equipment and at least 15,000 more hunter!
If you take the additional 300+ birds that were harvested during the 2006 youth season compared to the 2002 youth season then the rest of the season only netted about 100 birds!......

You want me to give a magic number and I dont have one....But if you look at the 2002 season and want to compare it against this year I think it is safe to say that if our turkey flock were flourishing then one would anticipate seeing hunter success being at least equal......Meaning that 41% of all hunters would harvest a bird on average.....That would mean our harvest tally for 2006 would be close to 34,000 birds. I dont think that is a realistic number due to the fact that the flock hasnt expanded as exponentially as the hunters hunting them. I did anticipate that we would harvest close to 31500 however....The fact that we didnt come close to that and the fact that next years 2 year old bird forecast looks very dismal has me very very concerned.

What each and everyone of you needs to step back and consider is the fact that we as hunters do very little to impact the turkey mortality on a percentage.....Yet we are the only thing we can really control....We cannot control the weather or the predation that occurs to turkey......

According to Jim Lane we are at 80% mortality on 2 year old birds and older. What does that mean? That means next year you will only see 2 out or the 10 jakes you saw this year make it to age 3! Folks I hunted 3 different farms in three different parts of the state. I called in to the gun 13 different long beards and only 6 jakes.....Chances are one of those jakes will make it as a three year old. Thats not good.....Im not the only one that didnt see many jakes.....Look at the jake harvest....Its down dramatically!

As far as harvest numbers go....Yes it was a stellar year.....As far as hunter success it was below 2002......Sorry but that is how I see it....

[maxcam]

about the spelling comment - was only trying to say that things would be easier for maxcam if he would only admit that he was wrong about turkeys - and i think u know that. i think its fairly obvious that his thoughts about this turkey season have been proven wrong. i'm sure max can spell - and prolly even take up for himself.



Ryan

I dont know you from adam but I will give you the opportunity to answer the same question I posed earlier.....

Given the fact that we had great weather, a larger flock, better equipment and 15000 more hunters, why didnt we kill more than 500 birds than were harvested in 2002?

[buckfever]

about the spelling comment - was only trying to say that things would be easier for maxcam if he would only admit that he was wrong about turkeys - and i think u know that. i think its fairly obvious that his thoughts about this turkey season have been proven wrong. i'm sure max can spell - and prolly even take up for himself.

ok, so what did your last post add to the value of this conversation? u even had to go all the way back to 1992 to rub in your duke victory to make yourself feel better :confused: ? BTW, i AM old enuff to remember the last time duke played in rupp (lost to iu in the ncaas), and boy, i will NEVER forget the crying in those pics :cool: . i also remember the game they lost to uk when tubby outcoached coach k in 1998.

methinks u r reaching a bit far here BF, don't let your dislike of me (and my dislike for your beloved basketball team) cloud your judgment. just so u know there are ALOT of folks in KY that hate duke....:rolleyes:

Ryan - I'm not going to comment further on Max's positions on our turkeys, since I have no idea what your position is (other than your blanket "you're wrong" position).

As for the Duke-UK stuff. . . .

I was just KIDDING about the 1992 Duke-UK game. It was actually intended to be a jab at Kalen, not you, given his unfortunate UK fan status.

To be honest with you, I couldn't give a flying frick if any college players cry after they lost the big game or when their careers are over. If you really think Redick is a "whiney-ass" b/c he cried after the LSU loss, then, hey, I'm happy for you and am sure you'll jump right in his face the next time you see him to tell him what you really think about him. I couldn't care less.

Can you please explain to me why it is that there are "ALOT of folks in KY that hate duke"? I mean, unlike UNC (or even NC State, Maryland or Wake) UK isn't even on Duke's radar. Even if you're the biggest UK b-ball fan on the planet, it is simply astonishing to me that UK fans can't find a "rival" (and I use that term loosely b/c Duke doesn't even consider UK to be a rival) out there to hate more than Duke.

I don't give a sh_t if Tubby stays, goes or if he outcoached Coach K in 1998. I'm sure Tubby has outcoached a lot of great coaches in his day and been outcoached by not-so-great coaches. With the team Duke had in 1998, one could reasonably argue that Coach K got outcoached in all 4 of their losses that year. I like Duke, UofL and UK, but wouldn't lose a minute's sleep if none ever wins another game. Duke has their program. UK has theirs. I hope they both continue to do well, but then again, I'm not playing, so their wins and losses aren't really going to affect me (except to the extent that it might affect how hard Duke solicits money from me).

[buckfever]

Yes I agree that the first 21 days 2006 was above the last 3 years harvest. We had a "good" hatch in 2004 so one should expect that the numbers for 2006 should be better than 2003-2005.

.

Actually, Max, that is incorrect. The first 21 days of 2006 yielded a harvest that was above the 2005 level, but below the 2004, 2003 and 2002 levels.

I think somebody tracked the number after the first 21 days and it was 26,269.

Here were the numbers

Spring of 2002 - 28,292

Spring of 2003 - 27,550

Spring of 2004 - 26,405

Spring of 2005 - 25,723

Spring of 2006 – 26,269 (after 21 days)

[WBBP]

BF: Can't get me on that one. I like Duke.......and NC and NC St. I spent some time at RTP..........I have been in that area several times and it is an awesome place. All three schools are great schools, although somewhat different in the type of student enrollment. It is hard to match the atmosphere in the that triangle. Wins and losses will come and go. Whenever UK plays a top school, it is always good for the Program regardless of the final score.

I admire Coack K, who doesn't.

We have had a courteous discussion on turkeys. I always like to hear everyones perspective as long as it is not overbearing. I feel like I am pretty lucky to live, work and hunt where the game is plentiful.....and that gives a different perspective than others who live in area where the game is more shall we say less-plentiful except at the local zoo.....:D

Going to work at the farm for the weekend, talk with you Sunday night........

[WBBP]

Good points Valley Station. I agree with all of it.

IMO, the poach rate is probably around 30-40% in some areas. I also think that telecheck compliance is getting lower every year since it is easy to not check one in....this is just my gut feeling and I have no facts. In a poachers mind, he probably gets more confident every year.

If we really want to get serious about one part of the overharvest, we need to stop all baiting for deer IMO. The CO's will tell you that they have a horrible time with this and it is impossible to control since they have to catch the person actually huting over the bait....which is obviously a dangerous situation for them.

The Kentucky Conservation Officers Association voted unamiously to support the outlawing of all baiting. They beleive that the baiting/poaching issue is wrecking havoc on our turkey population............

Maybe some of our CO's that frequent this site can speak to this better than me. The baiting/poaching of turkyes goes on all year.

K

[maxcam]

With regards to telechek reporting, Jim Lane shared with me that a factor of 40% of the harvest, was used to compensate for non reported birds......

[buckfever]

With regards to telechek reporting, Jim Lane shared with me that a factor of 40% of the harvest, was used to compensate for non reported birds......

They obviously have to factor in some amount of error/abuse into the harvest rates. 40% seems to be as good a guess as any.

Do you happen to know what error % they use for deer???

I assume that they use a much lower error % number for deer, simply b/c it's a lot easier to get away with not checking in a turkey, but was wondering if you knew?

[ryan hickey]

Ryan

I dont know you from adam but I will give you the opportunity to answer the same question I posed earlier.....

Given the fact that we had great weather, a larger flock, better equipment and 15000 more hunters, why didnt we kill more than 500 birds than were harvested in 2002?

its obvious that u guys know alot more about turkeys than i do. i'm not a wildlife bioligist, never claimed to be. i just think its easier to let fish and wildlife officials do their thing and follow the rules they set. i don't think turkey hunting right now is the best its ever been or that i couldn't possibly get better in the future. the way i remember it, u said there weren't gonna be that many turkeys killed this year (cause there weren't many around, and the ones that were around would be decimated by crossbows - there i said it) and imo, u were wrong.

i've never even SHOT a crossbow, but i'm with valley when he said he was more worried about guys who shoot em over a corn pile in the fall - than i am about what u shoot them with.

[ryan hickey]

Ryan - I'm not going to comment further on Max's positions on our turkeys, since I have no idea what your position is (other than your blanket "you're wrong" position).

As for the Duke-UK stuff. . . .

I was just KIDDING about the 1992 Duke-UK game. It was actually intended to be a jab at Kalen, not you, given his unfortunate UK fan status.

To be honest with you, I couldn't give a flying frick if any college players cry after they lost the big game or when their careers are over. If you really think Redick is a "whiney-ass" b/c he cried after the LSU loss, then, hey, I'm happy for you and am sure you'll jump right in his face the next time you see him to tell him what you really think about him. I couldn't care less.

Can you please explain to me why it is that there are "ALOT of folks in KY that hate duke"? I mean, unlike UNC (or even NC State, Maryland or Wake) UK isn't even on Duke's radar. Even if you're the biggest UK b-ball fan on the planet, it is simply astonishing to me that UK fans can't find a "rival" (and I use that term loosely b/c Duke doesn't even consider UK to be a rival) out there to hate more than Duke.

I don't give a sh_t if Tubby stays, goes or if he outcoached Coach K in 1998. I'm sure Tubby has outcoached a lot of great coaches in his day and been outcoached by not-so-great coaches. With the team Duke had in 1998, one could reasonably argue that Coach K got outcoached in all 4 of their losses that year. I like Duke, UofL and UK, but wouldn't lose a minute's sleep if none ever wins another game. Duke has their program. UK has theirs. I hope they both continue to do well, but then again, I'm not playing, so their wins and losses aren't really going to affect me (except to the extent that it might affect how hard Duke solicits money from me).

good gosh man, did i strike a nerve here or what?:confused: i'll explain later in the community forum about UK fans' hatred of duke so as to not hijack...

[maxcam]

its obvious that u guys know alot more about turkeys than i do. i'm not a wildlife bioligist, never claimed to be. i just think its easier to let fish and wildlife officials do their thing and follow the rules they set. i don't think turkey hunting right now is the best its ever been or that i couldn't possibly get better in the future. the way i remember it, u said there weren't gonna be that many turkeys killed this year (cause there weren't many around, and the ones that were around would be decimated by crossbows - there i said it) and imo, u were wrong.

i've never even SHOT a crossbow, but i'm with valley when he said he was more worried about guys who shoot em over a corn pile in the fall - than i am about what u shoot them with.

I appreciate your concern over illegal hunting practices but if you would pay close attention to my posts you would know that I have said several times I dont care what we hunt deer or turkey with.....I believe the words I used when I spoke at the appeals hearing last year were...."I dont care if its bazookas or a blow gun......" My concern is for the resource....If you look at the the numbers compared to 2003 -2005 based on a 21 day season then you cant really dispute what I said......

I think the fact that more hunters, hunting more days didn't really kill that many more turkeys proves my point.....If you dont agree I respect your opinion.....

[maxcam]

They obviously have to factor in some amount of error/abuse into the harvest rates. 40% seems to be as good a guess as any.

Do you happen to know what error % they use for deer???

I assume that they use a much lower error % number for deer, simply b/c it's a lot easier to get away with not checking in a turkey, but was wondering if you knew?

Sorry I dont have any info about the way they model deer harvests....The discussion was solely on turkey.....Im sure if you asked the dept they would let you know......

It would be hard to quess.....The season to legally harvest a turkey is much longer and the 37.5 hour rule cuffs the CO's so it may very well be nearly as high. If it is I certainly wouldnt be surprised.....The 40% figure nearly knocked me outta my chair when I heard it.....:eek:

[coondog]

I doubt it is 40% per year average. I bet it is a problem that is getting worse. But how do we know? We need the check in stations back to collect more data and much stiffer fines for poaching and tresspassing.

[Multidigits]

Nothin' new reveled here, same ole same ole. We can take the word of a paint mixer and his attorney over a highly trained group of professional wildlife managers. I suspect that 99% will choose the later. In fact, that has been confirmed in every survey ever taking during the last few years. When over 85% of both the hunters in the field and the landowners who see what's out there nearly everyday confirm that the resource is in good condition and in some cases getting over populated in areas, then it's really hard to overlook.

Bottom line is the dissension is coming from a small group, in a small area, all of them connected by their desire to see the crossbow expansion defeated in part or in total. The turkey "problem" was added as one of their weapons in this attempt. The KYDFWR says there's no problems on the horizon, so take your pick--the experts or the lay men wannabes that want you to believe them, even though they have no data to back up what they say. that is other than numbers from the same people that they say have been lying all along. Go figure, they discount the experts, call them liars and cheats, then they use their data in a twist to make their points. Prudent men aren't going to let that happen.

[aceoky]

Posted by maxcam:

You would think with more hunters and more days with more birds would have been just what the doctor ordered to beat the old record by several thousand….Why not? If I don’t know then perhaps you can tell us all Ace!

More NEW hunters does NOT equate to "instant success", how many had to learn how to hunt any game before being/becoming successful, ADD to that fact more pressure, and "educated" birds...it's NOT hard to figure out

Ace you can misquote me and misrepresent me all you want……It doesn’t bother me in the least….
HOw about YOU back that up?? I posted exactly what YOU said, AND posted links anyone can follow.....YOU said it(and much more) it's a well known fact .....

Just explain to everyone why the harvest was soo great given the fact that 1 in 5 hunters that hunted in 2002 didn’t harvest a bird this year…..


WELL, max, perhaps it equated with the 50% success rates for crossbows that YOU pulled out of thin air(YOU said" bows = 25%.... guns = 65%, most experts think it will be closer to guns so I'll use 50%").......(YOU back up why it's double the success rates of bows, since it has never been in ANY state which has expanded, since your "facts" in you mind seem to "work" for you; MOST know it's so close to exactly the same as bows, and I seriously doubt anyone falls for the double figure you tossed out there.....)

1 in 5 = 20% of those did NOT connect... OR an 80% SUCCESS rate! I don't see how that helps your position in the least......

Bottom LINE, YOU bring up "crowing", speaking of others, as IF you were "spot on", well, IMHO You were not.....first again, no one can kill the birds IF they're not there as YOU said they would not be, not once or twice , and in fact, I have shown YOU saying it again, right after this year's Spring Youth hunt!!


Will you be proven correct in the future? That remains to be seen, this year's predictions made by you were far off, and for YOU to bring up other's "crowing", was and is IMHO beyond, a "good idea", considering that fact!

Again, I had no reason or need to "twist" what was said, it's right there in black and white, as YOU said, it(and there is much more damaging posts.......that I would rather not "drag out".....so I haven't)......

FWIW, I don't see it as "crowing" to be happy for a great spring turkey season, for those who do, I actually have to feel sorry for you, one thing can NOT be disputed however, the birds had to exist to be killed this season.......and they were killed the number of days in the season, or the Sat opener does NOT change that fact.....even with "smarter" birds, it may have taken a bit longer to have a record harvest, I don't think anyone doubts that, but IF the birds aren't there or in "serious trouble" number wise, they would NOT have been there to be killed, much less in record numbers.......period

[Multidigits]

Fairly accurate. The numbers don't improve as you add more hunters. That's evident on public land areas that have tons of birds, but very low success rates. We've also seen the success rate stay close to the same when the deer herd went from 400,000 to nearly a million animals. Numbers don't make hunters smarter or better.

This year, successful turkey hunters had to resort to out side the box thinking on many occassions to kill turkeys. A study might show why, but I believe it was because the season came early this year--lots of hens already bred and sitting nests before the season started. That's the main reason the youth hunt was better than normal.

We see a lot of hunters that don't know basic turkey behavior and they can't adjust to abnormal conditions well. Most of them won't kill a bird very often. There's more to it than going to Walmart the night before and buying a couple of mouth calls and a turkey tag.

What is a fact is that if Maxi was correct, and the flock was actually in decline, then the numbers could not be generated.

We see 28,000 plus what he said was an additional 40% of that figure (11.200), for a total of 39,200 being killed in a fairly flat trend for 5 years. That is what most would say is a stable and very good harvest result, and one that is one of the best in the 50 states.

39,200 Spring gobblers!!!!!! What a season. :D

[buckfever]

You've got in entirely backwards. Although I agree with you that the breeding occurred early, it certainly didn't lower our harvests. If the turkeys bred early, that means that more hens were already on nest on April 15th, which in turn frees up more gobblers and makes them easier to kill. If you call a bunch of roaming gobblers an "abnormal" or difficult condition, I'm not sure what you'd consider good conditions.

Under your description of this season, one would have expected our harvest to go way up, even with all those hunters out there that, according to you, are too inexperienced to ever kill a bird.

[Multidigits]

You've got in entirely backwards. Although I agree with you that the breeding occurred early, it certainly didn't lower our harvests. If the turkeys bred early, that means that more hens were already on nest on April 15th, which in turn frees up more gobblers and makes them easier to kill. If you call a bunch of roaming gobblers an "abnormal" or difficult condition, I'm not sure what you'd consider good conditions.

Under your description of this season, one would have expected our harvest to go way up, even with all those hunters out there that, according to you, are too inexperienced to ever kill a bird.

Most hunter I've talked too, and that's abunch had trouble with toms not coming to calls. More interested in the protective company of other toms than taking a chance on having sex with a hen they know was already bred. They knew were their hens were when they roosted, and they knew they didn't need any more sex.

Overcast and rainy days, (which we had several), gobbles were rare. Toms didn't need to attrack a mate, because much of it was already over for them, and they knew it. We saw birds stay on the roost well into the mid morning on those days.

Was was clear, and still is that nobody reported a lack of toms, just a lack of ones that would come to a call. Some did, and they died. Others wouldn't no matter what the hunters did. It wasn't a rare occurunce, and even followed suit in Southern Indiana, well after our season start.

And 39,200 is up. Especially when you consider the non-telecheked rate in 2002 was much lower than in 2006.

[buckfever]

Fairly accurate. The numbers don't improve as you add more hunters. That's evident on public land areas that have tons of birds, but very low success rates. We've also seen the success rate stay close to the same when the deer herd went from 400,000 to nearly a million animals. Numbers don't make hunters smarter or better.

This year, successful turkey hunters had to resort to out side the box thinking on many occassions to kill turkeys. A study might show why, but I believe it was because the season came early this year--lots of hens already bred and sitting nests before the season started. That's the main reason the youth hunt was better than normal.

We see a lot of hunters that don't know basic turkey behavior and they can't adjust to abnormal conditions well. Most of them won't kill a bird very often. There's more to it than going to Walmart the night before and buying a couple of mouth calls and a turkey tag.

What is a fact is that if Maxi was correct, and the flock was actually in decline, then the numbers could not be generated.

We see 28,000 plus what he said was an additional 40% of that figure (11.200), for a total of 39,200 being killed in a fairly flat trend for 5 years. That is what most would say is a stable and very good harvest result, and one that is one of the best in the 50 states.

39,200 Spring gobblers!!!!!! What a season. :D

I guess the end of breeding, the gobbler's apathy towards breeding and the otherwise abnormal conditions would explain why we had such a great closing weekend????? The situation you're describing sounds a lot like run of the mill turkey hunting to me.

And your math on the 40% error rate is exactly opposite. if you apply the 40% error rate to each Spring harvest since 2002, you'd get a larger (not smaller) harvest discrepancy.

2002 - 39608
2003 - 38570
2004 - 36967
2005 - 36012
2006 - 36777 (counting only first 21 days)

I'm not sure what should be a significant harvest difference, but this would tend to show an even bigger decline, and shooting 2,900 fewer gobblers in 2006 than in 2002 over the same number of days doesn't necessarily add up to "fairly flat trend" in harvest levels.

[aceoky]

BF "I'm not sure what should be a significant harvest difference, but this would tend to show an even bigger decline, and shooting 2,900 fewer gobblers in 2006 than in 2002 over the same number of days doesn't necessarily add up to "fairly flat trend" in harvest levels."

THAT leaves out, however, a very important factor, there is MUCH more pressure on the flock, than there was in 2002, MORE hunters(as maxcam says, others seem to agree) equates to more pressure = birds, are harder, to hunt.......SO, that doesn't exactly prove much , IF anything.....in my view.....at least......IOW, harder to hunt, "smarter" birds obviously means, either, there will be fewer killed OR it will take longer for many to have any success........it proves nothing in how the flock is doing......IMHO

To "assume", that more hunters -= more success......is a "far stretch", one it's more pressure, two, it takes time to learn how to do things in order to succeed(and this goes beyond hunting even).......but one thing has to be correct, NO one can kill birds that are not there.......doesn't matter how good of a hunter one may be.....it simply can't be done,, thus, since they were killed, they must have been present, and living up to that point? ;)

[JDMiller]

Well lets see......there are 110 birds posted by members of this site alone in another thread and I know of several other members that killed birds but are so tired of the gloom & doom , they decided not to even post anything about their harvest....which I can understand. In another thread we had several reporting they did'nt harvest but according to them most heard or had experiences with birds....some pretty dissapointed but most just write it off as just hunting and look forward to next season.

Then you look at this thread and the same one that spread the most gloom & doom before is still at it. Who would have thunk it??? According to him and this is one of his quotes you can feel free to look it up ...."the flock is headed for hell in a handbasket" .....or "you better wake up and smell the coffee because your going to have a opening day where there is not going to be anything to shoot except for jakes & hens".

Now we did'nt kill enough birds as he figured....with good weather...bigger flock .....more hunters and better equipment than in comparison to 2002. I have to admit.....that better equipment one made me laugh. As far as the weather....thats questionable....we had a lot of rain & wind during most of the season. More hunters....I hope so....but I hunted LBL some and actually thought the pressure was pretty light for a public use area but other places across the state may have seen more. A bigger turkey flock.....I believe we had that as well.....is it expanding as fast as it should?? According to all the variables that can effect it from year to year...its holding its own but I believe its getting bigger and the opportunity for any turkey hunter to harvest a tom is about as good as it gets.....its hunting after all.

A comment was made to the effect of 1-5 hunters harvest ..... I have to admit thats a lot better than I expected for any turkey season. If this is infact the number ....I'm sure lots of states would love to have that. I guess where I'm getting a little confused .....the harvest was supposedly on a drastic decline.....basically there was not birds there to harvest according to this person but he states that he figured we would harvest 31,000 plus birds for 2006. No disrespect... but how can it be one way before season and now you figure we should have killed more. Sounds to me its kinda like a "fair weather" prediction .....its one way if it shown a decline but its now this.. if its what we have now.

2006 was a good spring turkey season....the numbers show that even if you want to compare it within the 21 days its up from 2005. I for one am beginning to think this is a localized problem and maybe we should just stop all turkey hunting within the 3rd wildlife district until they catch up to what they think their hunting should be. It's obviously different than the rest of the state.

[Multidigits]

I guess the end of breeding, the gobbler's apathy towards breeding and the otherwise abnormal conditions would explain why we had such a great closing weekend????? The situation you're describing sounds a lot like run of the mill turkey hunting to me.

And your math on the 40% error rate is exactly opposite. if you apply the 40% error rate to each Spring harvest since 2002, you'd get a larger (not smaller) harvest discrepancy.

2002 - 39608
2003 - 38570
2004 - 36967
2005 - 36012
2006 - 36777 (counting only first 21 days)

I'm not sure what should be a significant harvest difference, but this would tend to show an even bigger decline, and shooting 2,900 fewer gobblers in 2006 than in 2002 over the same number of days doesn't necessarily add up to "fairly flat trend" in harvest levels.

I don't think you have a handle on a lot of the hunters that's out there. Some people go above board to make things happen. Folks adapt. and if gobblers won't come, they go to the gobbler. We successfully did this 5 times in the last week alone. Presistance pays off.

Not to mention that lots of those birds that were called in the last two days were actually killed before the last two days. Happens all the time, and with deer.

As for the 40% margin of error, that hasn't always been there, and it's evolved over the years to a 40% level. It would have been lower than 40% in 2002. When they first started using a correction factor, it was 18%. This was dirived from the road block checks that they used to conduct. They can't anymore. The 18% was the rate of individuals that had a otherwise legal animal, except they had a tagging violation of some sort. So, they know that people cheat the system, and the field people know it, they also know that it's gone up instead of gone down. So, apparently they are now using 40%. In 2002, it would have been less than that.


5 years with a high/low difference of 3,000 birds is very good. Something to be proud of for the managers.

[maxcam]

THAT leaves out, however, a very important factor, there is MUCH more pressure on the flock, than there was in 2002, MORE hunters(as maxcam says, others seem to agree) equates to more pressure = birds, are harder, to hunt.......SO, that doesn't exactly prove much , IF anything.....in my view.....at least......IOW, harder to hunt, "smarter" birds obviously means, either, there will be fewer killed OR it will take longer for many to have any success........it proves nothing in how the flock is doing......IMHO

To "assume", that more hunters -= more success......is a "far stretch", one it's more pressure, two, it takes time to learn how to do things in order to succeed(and this goes beyond hunting even).......but one thing has to be correct, NO one can kill birds that are not there.......doesn't matter how good of a hunter one may be.....it simply can't be done,, thus, since they were killed, they must have been present, and living up to that point? ;)

Considering that 95 percent of the land that is hunted in Kentucky is privately owned your arguements for pressured birds is horse crap...You know it I know it and everyone that knows about hunting turkeys knows it......How many of these super intelligent creatures were alive in 2002...?

The fact is if the flock was healthy and there was a healthy jake population we probably would have had a super harvest this year....

Ace the simple fact that on one hand you argue that turkeys are super intelligent birds that are hard to kill when pressured and then in the next breath argue that you cant kill what isnt there proves you just want to argue......Heres another stretch for you to consider.....How in the world did more hunters with more birds and great weather every kill so many birds in 2002 than in previous years....Were the turkeys dumber that year?

I dont argue that the beginner group of hunters is going to average 40% just like I dont expect the intermediate hunter to fall to 40%......That is an average number......I know of several folks that visit here that are suppose to be good hunters that didnt have a very good year....One the comes to mind would be CSS....I believe the last post I saw from him had him at one bird on Knox and none out in the state.....I also believe he spent more time than the average Joe in the woods......

Finally, you mention that you cant kill birds that arent there....I agree.....Take the average Jake harvest and then add that to the harvest and you will see what you should have had this year if the flock was healthy......They werent there and we didnt kill them....Not only does this show a problem this year, but I do not believe it is going to bode well for 2007!

[Multidigits]

Considering that 95 percent of the land that is hunted in Kentucky is privately owned your arguements for pressured birds is horse crap...You know it I know it and everyone that knows about hunting turkeys knows it......How many of these super intelligent creatures were alive in 2002...?

The fact is if the flock was healthy and there was a healthy jake population we probably would have had a super harvest this year....

Ace the simple fact that on one hand you argue that turkeys are super intelligent birds that are hard to kill when pressured and then in the next breath argue that you cant kill what isnt there proves you just want to argue......Heres another stretch for you to consider.....How in the world did more hunters with more birds and great weather every kill so many birds in 2002 than in previous years....Were the turkeys dumber that year?

I dont argue that the beginner group of hunters is going to average 40% just like I dont expect the intermediate hunter to fall to 40%......That is an average number......I know of several folks that visit here that are suppose to be good hunters that didnt have a very good year....One the comes to mind would be CSS....I believe the last post I saw from him had him at one bird on Knox and none out in the state.....I also believe he spent more time than the average Joe in the woods......

Finally, you mention that you cant kill birds that arent there....I agree.....Take the average Jake harvest and then add that to the harvest and you will see what you should have had this year if the flock was healthy......They werent there and we didnt kill them....Not only does this show a problem this year, but I do not believe it is going to bode well for 2007!


The number is now about 90% private land hunting. A lot of it 30-50 acres tracks with multiple hunters. Not everybody has vast tracks to hunt or large acerage reserved for them self.

Not sure what the flock estimate was in 2002, might have been closer to or a little over 250,000 or so? Can't remember and it's not worth looking up. Doesn't matter now.

IMO, the flock numbers are directly related to the accorn crop. When there's plenty of accorns, the turkeys will notice. The fact is that the flock will fluctuate somewhere between 300,000 tops to a low of maybe 200,000 - 225,000, depending on the hatch. We could be on the low end now. That surely doesn't mean that the flock is in trouble, because it's not. All that is needed is to sustain a harvest at the current levals. As mentioned before, the hunter staisfaction numbers (except in the 3rd District) are really high, and that hasn't changed this year especially with the record harvest.

As for CSS, your not telling the whole story. I sent him a note asking him if he wanted to try one of my properties. He declined, but did say he thought he could have killed his birds if he had resorted to other tactics, but he prefers to call his birds into the bow--that didn't happen for him.

F & W publicized the fact that the hatch was down, that folks should lay off the jakes if they had the chance. They did so, because there was a surplus of adult gobblers for them to hunt. That shows up in the record harvest.

I predict that 2007 will be tuff for the novice hunter, unless they take a jake or two. There will be plenty of jakes that will gobble, and plenty of gobblers left from this season that will also be there. Should be a great year, maybe a new record.

[aceoky]

Horse crap? Now , who's wanting/trying to argue? :rolleyes:

And btw; niether has anything to do with the other.....FACT: ANY game that is pressured changes habits.....YOU don't agree, fine by me, won't change it, MOST of us know this, AND have seen mature bucks out in daylight in public parks during "deer season", Why? They are NOT pressured by hunters, the deer that ARE hunted (especially mature bucks) are NOT out during the middle of the day, feeding as if nothing can harm them, i.e. they have been "educated"......YOU call that horsecrap, IF you like, I however have seen it enough, to know it IS a factor, and has proven to most that it also is......

YOU said, the flock was in "trouble"(to be nice here).......IF you were correct(and it doesn't appear by these recent numbers you were for this season).......then, how did birds which don't exist get killed? They didn't , so much for the "horse crap" answer! :)

Will things only get better or will they get "worse", no one knows that for certain, but so far, some have been crying "doom and gloom" and at least to this point, have NOT been correct in my views(and it's obvious, that I am far from alone)......so much for "crowing"......

Even when faced with the cold hard data, you still want to believe that you were so "right" , your predictions for 2006 , were very far off, most know that, nice try.......but trying to change the subject, and the "doubt", won't cut it this time, perhaps in the future, you'll remember better what you have said, before posting so quickly about others.....much less accusing them of "crowing" (not needed, and in FACT done to "argue"):eek:

I actually think, had YOU not mentioned the "crowing" so very quickly, and made such a point of that..... when as I seen it, people were just happy about a good season........the rest would have never taken place YOU just had to post the "crowing".......so take the medicine you brought upon yourself, by questioning others posts........

Nothing wrong with some positive posts, and in fact I think they've been needed, all this "doom and gloom", doesn't add anything positive in my views......fwiw

[maxcam]

The flock was estimated at 202,000 birds in 2002....The hunters success was at 41% with just over 28700 birds harvested that season according to the info provided to Kentucky Game and Fish by then Turkey Biologist Jim Lane......This year the hunter success was around 31%! So I would say that 25 percent of the turkey hunters arent to happy with the way this year shook out for them.....

Jim Lane went on to say .....

"There were more birds in the population, plus favorable weather. Add to that more hunters becoming more experienced, and an abundance of 2-year-old gobblers. We also have landowners managing their lands for wildlife. All of these factors contributed to an outstanding harvest," Lane said."

I suppose he and I do agree on a few things after all......more hunters and more birds should result in more birds harvested......

It was also noted that all regions saw an increase in harvest in 2002 .....That didnt happen this year....As I am sure Kalen is aware the Green River Region was down from the record of 2002 and the Top Three Counties in that region Ohio, Muhlenberg and Butler failed to beat their old numbers.......

Tom, you didnt know the status of the hatch until you argued with me over the fact and then verified it yourself....

All this info can be researched either on the KDFW website or on the following web page.....

http://www.kentuckygameandfish.com/hunting/turkey-hunting/ky_aa032103a/

By the way rain is in the forecast for thru next Tuesday.....I wouldnt count my Turkeys before they hatch......Next year we may not have that many jakes to hunt either!

[maxcam]

Ace,

Do you agree or disagree that if the season had run 21 days that we would have been around 26,000 birds......Yes or No will do.....I dont want to be resposible for you coming down with carpal tunnel.....

[aceoky]

Ace,

Do you agree or disagree that if the season had run 21 days that we would have been around 26,000 birds......Yes or No will do.....I dont want to be resposible for you coming down with carpal tunnel.....

That's impossible to "speculate" upon.............most hunters make plans on the season's length, given that fact, a shorter season, could have produced as many birds quicker.......maybe...... maybe not.....but again, IF the flock was "in trouble(again being nice) there wouldn't be all those birds to kill, now would there be????

BTW Jim Lane said there "were MORE birds(not less) in the population" AND

All of these factors contributed to an outstanding harvest," Lane said."

MORE birds AND an "outstanding harvest", NOT quite what YOU predicted.....nor is it close.....

OH and it DID result in MORE birds harvested, the data proves exactly that!!!!

[maxcam]

Ace

That quote was from a 2002 article that appeared in the Kentucky Fish and Game magazine. He was pointing out that the flock had increased from 170,000 birds in 2001 to 202,000 in 2002. We are currently at 250,000 birds and about 85,000 (an increase of over 70,000 in 2002) hunters and we still didnt kill a significant number of birds over 2002 .....

If you think that two days ( an extra weekend) didnt make a significant difference in the harvest numbers then just say soo......

The authority that you believe in made the same arguement that I did in explaining why we had a high harvest this year back in 2002, why isnt it valid now.....The degree to which you and I dont see eye to eye on is the issue....

I say that in order to compare this year to 2002 you need to admit there are more hunters, that hunted more days with more birds to harvest that resulted in less than 500 more birds harvested. If you dont agree just say so....

I say in order to compare this year to 2002 you have to admit that the hunter success was down at least 20 percent.....If you dont agree just say so......

[aceoky]

Fine, Doug, I don't agree!

THAT being said, it's prudent that you realize this "ain't my first rodeo" either, as you like to point out about others......

FIRST YOU say, that hunters only control "X" amount of the turkey flock, nature the "biggest part", THEN YOU say, that crosbow kill would be DOUBLE that of "other bows", which BTW YOU have failed to prove OR state where you got that figure even though I asked......here.....

WHICH is it? I mean, really either the birds that were killed exist or they dont.........either man plays a "small role" or he does NOT........NOT both........YOu can't have it both ways.........

YOU say , over and over again, your "concern for the resource" is what "drives" you , then say, most of the turkey problems are weather realated.......etc. NOTHING to do, with man OR the crossbow.......to try to prove your point(s), YOU pull 50% success rates "out of your own hat" (as far as I can tell, since YOU admited that was DOUBLE that of "other bows".....the hard data says they're the same)......

THEN YOU predict, a VERY bad spring 2006 season......(I don't see it that way at all, nor even close to YOUR doom and gloom predictions).......THEN YOU "attack" others for "crowing"......

When another poster(BF) asked for proof, I posted SOME of it, NOT the worst(or nearly so)........then you accuse ME of "misquoting you", and "misrepresenting you", it's obvious to everyone I did neither, YOU said it, and bragged in fact, YOU would reming US ALL, and tell US, that YOU told us so.........sorry, but you don't get to do that......deal with it.......

I'm not so certain , that you'll learn from this or not, but just perhaps, before YOU post about other's and their "crowing" YOU will think about what you have stated, as facts........and how YOU know more, and care more than those trained bilogists the Dept(and WE ) pay for doing this job??? Probably not.......but rest assured, you had best be correct, "next time", IF you continue to persist, in how much better YOU are for the "resources" when compared to wildlife bilogists WE all pay to do that job.......especially when YOU take it upon yourself to tell everyone "how it is, and how bad "X" year will be based upon your self-proclaimed knowledge" and the "facts" which you can't seem to "back up".....

YOU just admitted YOU used 2002, "data" to prove that YOU were right for this year right above.......HOW "sad" is that????:confused: :rolleyes:

BTW, don't worry about "my" carpal tunnel, I write enough computer programs in a few days, that "this typing" isn't "squat", no "biggie" here.......:eek:

I submit, the Dept. AND their staff of FULLY TRAINED WILDLIFE BILOGISTS who ARE being paid to to a job are more than doing exactly that, and your attempts to prove that wrong, have "backfired" .......as you were told they would........it's great to be "concerned for the resources", it's quite another to pull numbers out of thin air, expect people to "buy them", and support YOUR stance on a "certain issue", which BTW YOU made it perfectly clear what this WAS all about, with your "crossbow remark".....IF you think that helped YOUR position in ANY way......you sir are dreaming......enjoy it while YOU can.......it will be "short lived" victory.....thanks for the help btw......

[aceoky]

Let's see.......YOU don't want to equate more pressure to "harder, smarter" birds to hunt, OR admit, there was more pressure this season than in 2002(BUT in the same post claim, both, more hunters and plenty of birds, which btw disputes your predictions).......

Just as YOU don't like to be reminded of exactly what SB 211 would have done.......YOU supported it even when YOU were shown the risks of us ALL.......it didn't matter to YOU because YOU only cared about "winning", even if or when later WE all payed!

Now see I KNOW about how things are done in Indiana(NOT done is more accurate,) THAT was YOUR soloution(along with a "few others" to the expansion issue.......NOT compromise......NO WAY.....WHO "crowed" then, and is still crowing about that now??? YOU....that's who....

For YOU to think, or even hope THAT "legacy" of YOURS is going away , ever is yet another one of your dreams, YOU and YOUR buddy, the radio guy.......fought for that, against even your own side.........!!!

And YET......YOU have the "nerve" to mention, about other's "crowing", well guess what? YOU did it, YOU deal with the FACTS.......fair enough???

YOU and "YOUR FEW", had best really understand something and sooner rather than later, WE (that would be MOST of us btw), do NOT see the KDFWR the "evil empire" you and yours keep TRYING to portray them as......and unless they prove otherwise(not even close now....just because they didn't bow down to the "thunderin' third.....just don't "get it").....:D

HOW many times have YOU said, that YOU represent the majority?? PROVE that......WE have proof you do not.....YOU saying it doesn't change any facts.....

AS for "your concern for the resources"(especially the turkey).....I will be polite enough to ASK YOU AGAIN......

When WE changed things to DEER ONLY....why did YOU continue to fight expansion???

When WE proved that GUNS kill the VAST MAJORITY of "your flock", WHY didn't YOU focus on THAT instead of the expansion.....in fact "making YOUR own numbers up"......to double the archery harvest!!(anyone who has looked at ANY real data knows that is BS btw).....

FACT IS: YOU , only care about "getting your way", and "think" this is one way for you to do so, and "not lose face", sorry YOU made the predictions, and YOU have made the accusations against the Dept........NO proof, just what YOU say......and none of it has proven to be even somewhat correct......YOU expect what now? For everyone to just "support YOU and your "few" and their opinions, "......INSTEAD of solid data and facts????

NOT gonna happen, YOU played YOUR cards.....it wasn't a "winning hand"......YOU and your "few", may not like once again, having the facts NOT support them....but alas, that IS the problem when some "think" that opinions and such things can in fact defeat facts.......in the "end" the facts PROVE what is "what"........IOW YOU lose.....

Though, just as last time, I don't expect you to accept the truth, or any such facts.......I fully expect you and yours to "move on" to the "next thing".....whether it works OR NOT......whether it's good for Ky hunters OR NOT.....whether it makes any sense what so ever.......THAT won't matter , not any of it......so long as you guys "get your own way", whatever YOU all do.........is "fine" and dandy......just as YOU and yours "crowed" so very loudly, especially about the "pre-rut", and keeping some out.......but when YOU accused others of doing what YOU all had done.......did YOU really thing no one would respond???? Nice dream world you guys live in.....still though, in the "real world" facts and data do matter, and ALL of those are on OUR side........dream on that.......ok ;)

"Concern for the resouces" my .........

IF that were in any way true, then YOU would have worked this in many different ways, YOU could have worked to reduce the number of birds allowed(any weapon) OR even the length........ OR the gun season(for the resources, not to "hurt" hunters)BUT YOU DID NOT.....do either, instead YOU manufactured crossbow harvest numbers, that are double what anyone knows they should have been........THAT is what YOU already have proven(among other things).....Yep, you're concerned alright.......about what YOU want and don't want.....but I think that is the "most of it".......facts speak louder than words.....and the facts do NOT back up the words....now do they???

Go "crow" some more about what YOU have managed to do.....but I hope you've learned to not question others saying WE all had a great season, despite what some said we'd have.........

IOW , if YOU aren't willing to "let things go", how can YOU expect others to do the same"?????

[maxcam]

Ace

I would recommend you take a valuim and a good burbon and coke before you post any time soon....

I just read your last post and I am greatly concerned for your mental health....It appears to me that you may be headed for a nervous breakdown......

With that in mind please forgive me if I totally ignore the last post and instead concentrate on the original question at hand.....You really need to quit obsessing over the crossbow issue....Its not healthy!

If you dont agree with the principal that more hunters with more birds should result in more birds harvested then I respect that opinion, even if I do not agree with it....I think you should share that with the turkey biologist and ask for a more liberal turkey season if that is how you feel......

Your charge that I was concerned only about the crossbow harvest in the fall with respect for turkeys is totally unfounded since the compromise was a reduction across the board on mature gobblers with respect to weapon choice....Proving that "our side" is truely concerned for the resource! That recommendation came from the 3rd and the motion was made by Sky! I voted in favor of his recommendation and support it whole heartedly! I suppose he is now considered a double agent by your lynch mob! Sorry Sky!

As far as crowing is concerned, back up a bit little man......You were the one that ripped into me first about certain issues pertaining to the dog ordinance with your sarcastic BS....My response to you on those posts will come at the first face to face you and I have, be certain of that!

As far as the jibberish that you went on to rattle off after those points is concerned I have no earthly idea what your point is.....

Let just settle this by saying that you believe that with 50,000 more turkey and 15,000 more turkey hunters hunting an extra weekend we managed to harvest 450+ birds and you feel that is extraorinary and leave it at that.....I just finished celebrating a wonderful evening with friends and to be honest Im not in the mood to get as upset as you.......Ill save it for another day....

Ace have a wonderful Mothers Day!

[turk2di]

When we are rebutting each others posts, lets remember what is obvious here guy's, however hatefull they read! BOTH sides deep love & therfore concern for OUR turkey flock!Typing out loud( thinking out loud with a keyboard) , while feeling good when typed, sometimes reads different that what was meant. While i enjoy reading debates & opinions by others, when it gets 2b too personal, as with here, each sides argument becomes diluted, distracted, & eventually lost in the neverending game of oneupsmanship. We seem to have reached that point!

[hilljack]

add one more week to the season, than do a survey on devorce rates amoung turkey hunters

[turk2di]

Someone link up Phil Potters column in Sundays(May 14th) Evansville Courier!

[Multidigits]

Someone link up Phil Potters column in Sundays(May 14th) Evansville Courier!

Good article. I've spoke to hunters from Florida on up who reported the same trends that we saw here this year. Of course they also had huge acorn crops and poor hatches for the last couple of years. Summery, it's not a Ky. only trend, but one of the region. One that all the game agencies had predicted would happen sooner or later.


Two weeks earlier....what a novel idea!!!! :D

http://www.courierpress.com/ecp/local_sports/article/0,1626,ECP_749_4697709,00.html

[turk2di]

Good article. I've spoke to hunters from Florida on up who reported the same trends that we saw here this year. Of course they also had huge acorn crops and poor hatches for the last couple of years. Summery, it's not a Ky. only trend, but one of the region. One that all the game agencies had predicted would happen sooner or later.


Two weeks earlier....what a novel idea!!!! :D

http://www.courierpress.com/ecp/local_sports/article/0,1626,ECP_749_4697709,00.html
U may have been right bout Mo, the birds were there for a record, but the weather will likely nip that in the bud. Flexible season starting dates? Might just be an idea there.

[Feedman]

Good article. I liked this paragraph.

The lessons to be learned from 2006: Forget fixed opening dates in favor of flexible ones and consider opening most at least two weeks earlier than present - but never start the season on a Saturday..


Never start the season on a Saturday. What a novel idea!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Multidigits]

I agree on that one, if the season had not started on Saturday, it would have likely been a record season after the end of the 21 day period.

BUT, it's there by popular opinion....nothing else.

[aceoky]

Maxcam said "Your charge that I was concerned only about the crossbow harvest in the fall with respect for turkeys is totally unfounded since the compromise was a reduction across the board on mature gobblers with respect to weapon choice....

THAT is exactly what I said, was done... which proves the true intent...emphasis, on "compromise", NOT anywhere else was this mentioned.....it was used, against the expansion.....with no data to support it, zero, nadda, zilch...still that is what and how the change occured....

I will simply agree to disagree, that things appear to be "so bad" at this time.......

[Xi Bowhunter]

U may have been right bout Mo, the birds were there for a record, but the weather will likely nip that in the bud. Flexible season starting dates? Might just be an idea there.

I've been wondering about having flexable starting and ending dates as well. I think it could be a good idea at really "dialing" in on the prime mating season.

[teacher]

I would love to put in my opinion here, but since it appears I'm not a serious hunter, I don't know.... How could someone suggest that hunting weekends only makes them a non serious hunter? I am a serious hunter, and always will be as long as I'm able.... I have a serious job!!! I loved the Saturday opener and will love any they have in the future.... Those who say it should never be set on a Saturday only think of themselves... What about the youth seasons? Do you think they shouldn't get Saturday openers as well? If you don't the Saturday thing, wait till Monday and hunt.... You can have it all to yourself then, cause non serious hunters like me will be tagged out before then..... I killed my two birds the first weekend on public land, the same place I killed them last year.... IMO a serious hunter can take the challenge of hunting pressured, public lands, and tag out....

[Multidigits]

Here's the rest of the story:

First off, the number of folks using private land has shrunk, it's been reported at 95%. It's a lot less than that now:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/conelydt/HuntingPrivate-Public.jpg

Next, it's been implied that we are harvesting too many gobblers. What do most of the hunters think????(2006 Survey) Let's see:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/conelydt/Chart6Overharvest.jpg



Next, that hunter success was so and so in 2002? verses now.

Let's see the 2002 numbers first, they are less than what has been reported as you can see

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/conelydt/2002SuccessRate.jpg:


In 2002, most people thought that the the flock had enough birds, AND that the KYDFWR were doing a great job of managing the resource, as you can see here:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/conelydt/2002Assessment-Population.jpg


Brings us up to date with the assessment last year of the overall programs being offered by KYDFWR. what do most people say???? Let's look:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/conelydt/Chart3AssessmentofKYDFWR.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/conelydt/Chart3Page2.jpg


Doom and Gloom????? Looks like most people don't really think so, even in the 3rd District where most of the guff is coming from. Read it for yourself and see, of course you could just look back at this forum and see how many complaints out side of the one little click there are. The future is bright, most hunters agree.__________________

[Xi Bowhunter]

Multi, although I try not to take such a ridgid way of getting my point across, I do agree with you. The future is bright for turkeys and turkey hunters. The numbers will rise and fall due to loads of factors, but I believe the overall harvest rate will increase over the next 10 years. We are doing a great job as a state to make the turkey population boom, I just hope we keep it up!

[aceoky]

"That recommendation came from the 3rd and the motion was made by Sky! I voted in favor of his recommendation and support it whole heartedly! I suppose he is now considered a double agent by your lynch mob! Sorry Sky!"


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to "suppose" as you wish, I never said anything even remotely close; and I haven't seen anyone else for that matter suggest anything close fwiw...

As for the fact of the matter, *I* have more than once expressed to Sky(and others) that IF there is any problem with the turkey numbers, the obvious "fix" is to look at the gun season(since in fact that is where most kills come from) and work from there, and I'd suspect, given ample evidence, we could all have worked on this together, rather than how it was in fact handled....I see no reason to however bring the expansion into the "equaation", when archery kills are in fact a "non-issue", as we all know....none of that mattered; and it is what it is....

I do take offense at your stating as if a fact how any of us "feel" towards Sky , and you labled us as a "lynch mob".. *I* happen to have a great deal of respect for him and all that he has done for Ky sportsmen, and seem to remember his stance on a certain Senate Bill.......as well...

Change is a constant, and those unwilling to accept that fact, are where they are, many of us, intend fully to work for more opportunity, and since we don't have Ky data at this time to use, will need to use the Tenn data, which is obviously positive data, and proves there was no harm to any resources.....even with "all those new crossbow hunters", (yet where are "all those NR flocking there, as some suggest might happen here....key word...."might", a mere specualtion at best btw)....

Bottom line, based upon facts and data alone, there is simply no reason to suspect any damage to the resources from expansion, wasn't before, and there certainly isn't now...and I for one don't seem to see any hard evidence that the turkey flock is any "danger" at present, IF it is, I'm more than willing to work to "fix that", but I suggest we focus on real data, real facts, not opinions.....and look at the seasons and weapons responsible for by far the most kills, none of these is archery related......and that is not only an opinion...it's very obvious......but again, that part was not addressed.....I am curious as to why not?? IF concern for the resources was the "factor", I have to wonder why the gun seasons were not looked at more closely, anyone can easily see that if somehow the archery harvest went up threefold(not likely ever, any archery weapons allowed, regardless of anyone's opinions, facts say it won't happen, and it hasn't anywhere)......we'd still be so much "below" gun kills as to not "matter" in the "real world"......hard to "buy" the "concern for the resources" speech, when the ONE major factor was not even considered(at least to my knowledge, and I asked about that fact very often, as my posts will prove)...... ;)

Yes, Sky, I'm sorry too........that my words were so "twisted", as to attempt to accuse you of something I never said....nor meant or implied......however it wasn't "me" who brought you into this part of any of this...nor did I ever intend to do so.....fwiw

[Multidigits]

Multi, although I try not to take such a ridgid way of getting my point across, I do agree with you. The future is bright for turkeys and turkey hunters. The numbers will rise and fall due to loads of factors, but I believe the overall harvest rate will increase over the next 10 years. We are doing a great job as a state to make the turkey population boom, I just hope we keep it up!

Good, in spite of your troubles this year bagging your limit, you don't seem to blame it on the F & W Dept. That's showing that your smart enough to figure out what's going on here. Thanks. :D

[Xi Bowhunter]

No the F&W are doing a great job as far as I can see. When an issue comes up, they respond and change accordingly. As far as my trouble with bagging a bird, it wasn't because the birds wern't there. I had trouble with treaspassers on my farm that kept the birds running and finally forced them off my farm and onto a farm that no one hunts. There were plenty of birds there, I just couldn't connect. Oh, well, maybe next year:(

[Feedman]

Maybe we need to make the following changes to the spring turkey season:

1. Start the season on a Monday.

2. Season goes for 2 weeks.

3. One Gobbler limit.

4. Follow this format for 3 years.

This should stop all pissin and moaning and make sure that the flock is in good shape.:eek:

[JDMiller]

Maybe we need to make the following changes to the spring turkey season:

1. Start the season on a Monday.

2. Season goes for 2 weeks.

3. One Gobbler limit.

4. Follow this format for 3 years.

This should stop all pissin and moaning and make sure that the flock is in good shape.:eek:


If we listen to certain ones "the flock is headed for hell in a handbasket" as its been said. Your suggestion is good but I think the only way to cure the problem accordingly is to stop all forms of turkey hunting imediately. We need to forget any opinion of the KDF&WR and turn the entire wildlife management over to a couple of guys out of the 3rd ....they obviously know whats best for all hunters in Kentucky since they are the only ones with concern for the resource.

I really dont know how any of us were able to harvest any turkeys this season with the condition things were in . I will also add...I cant wait until deer season gets closer......I'm sure they will give us the deer heard is "headed for hell in a handbasket" theory as well. Wait a minute.....I think we already got that one as well.:D :D

[WBBP]

I disagree with making any season changes, especially based on the very small minority that is belly aching. Strangely, most of the belly aching is comming from Jefferson County-not exactly the turkey capital of Kentucky.

Those of us that live, work and hunt out where the majority of the turkeys live and are hunted in Kentucky, know there is not a problem. If we get sucked into this doom and gloom, we will only have to listen to it for years. It will always be these sad predictions for the upcomming season. Nothing wrong with expressing concern about the turkey resource, but we ought to give more credibility to the hunters out in the field and the biologist's in Frankfort, not someone that sits at their computer all day and plays a numbers game and criticizes the Department.

We had a bad hatch last year, hunting turkeys over bait is rampant, and the telecheck compliance is running at 60%. I think the bigger problem we should discussing is non-complaince with our game laws.


JMO...

K

[buckfever]

I disagree with making any season changes, especially based on the very small minority that is belly aching. Strangely, most of the belly aching is comming from Jefferson County-not exactly the turkey capital of Kentucky.
K

Kalen - I agree that there's no current need to change bag limits or season dates. If we have an awful 2007 spring season, I'd certainly think that limitation should be discussed and explored. I don't know what 2007 will hold, but I think we might be short on 2 yr old birds next spring. If our harvest drops down to 22-23,000 birds then I think there will be some need to re-evaluate matters.

[WBBP]

I agree with that depending on the weather that season. I think the Department would too.

I just looked at some numbers for our region down here (25 counties). comparing 2002 to 2006, we were shy by 148 gobblers in the spring when you compare 2006 to 2002....not exactly a travesty. Interestingly, 12 counties were up over their records set in 2002, while 13 counties were down. Declines in the area I hunt (Butler, Muhlenberg and Ohio counties) were down a toal of 317 spring gobblers when you compare 2002 to 2006. Breckenridge was up 150 birds in that same time period.

IMO, we are seeing a leveling out of flocks in Butler, Muhlenberg,and Ohio County, plus we have seen a reduction of out of county hunters in the last several years. This corresponds with a simultaneous increase in the turkey flock in other areas of the state where more hunters can hunt closer to home since their flocks are in huntable numbers now.

Gotta go...desperate housewives.....:D

K

[Feedman]

We had a bad hatch last year, hunting turkeys over bait is rampant, and the telecheck compliance is running at 60%. I think the bigger problem we should discussing is non-complaince with our game laws.


JMO...

K

I agree but what will it take for this to happen?

[Xi Bowhunter]

I'll tell you, the telecheck system is a problem in my opinion. But people are going to be dishonest one way or another. It's hard to catch them all.

[ryan hickey]

I'll tell you, the telecheck system is a problem in my opinion. But people are going to be dishonest one way or another. It's hard to catch them all.


have to agree here, telechek makes it awful easy for folks to not call them in or whatever - but what do ya do about it?:confused:

[Multidigits]

We can agree that Telechek is a problem, but it's not THE problem. It's no big news that the non-compliance rate is high, almost as high as the legal harvest rate. But it gives the data needed to the biologists that need to make the management decisions. Telelchek being off doesn't make it a stopper because the rate of non-compliance is consistant across the State. If it wasn't, then there would be a problem.

So, let's re-cap. There's a problem maintianing record harvests each year in the REGION. Many states reporting similar hunting conditions, all related to poor hatches. While most of these States on our borders and in the region are posting record declines in their harvestm, Kentucky has another record season. So, because of Telechek being off by 40%, the harvest is even larger than being reported. You would think the Jefferson Co. boys would be elated instead of full of doom and gloom? Sure as heck no reason to make drastic changes based on what isn't a problem! :cool:

[coondog]

because the rate of non-compliance is consistant across the State. If it wasn't, then there would be a problem.

HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS CONSTANT?

So, let's re-cap. There's a problem maintianing record harvests each year in the REGION.

WHICH REGION? GREEN RIVER? PURCHASE? IF YOU MEAN STATE DON'T SAY "REGION".

Many states reporting similar hunting conditions, all related to poor hatches.

I THOUGHT IS WAS ALL ABOUT ACORNS?

While most of these States on our borders and in the region are posting record declines in their harvestm, Kentucky has another record season.

WHAT RECORD DID WE SET?

So, because of Telechek being off by 40%, the harvest is even larger than being reported. You would think the Jefferson Co. boys would be elated instead of full of doom and gloom?

DO NOT TRY TO LUMP ALL JEFF. CO. PEOPLE AS HAVING THE SAME OPINION. THAT IS LIKE SAYING EVERY ANTI-CROSSBOW PERSON IS A MEMBER OF THE UBK.

Sure as heck no reason to make drastic changes based on what isn't a problem! :cool:

Why does it seem some people get on here to just argue and spread their "wisdom"? Funny how you never see some of these hunters congratulating people for their harvests or being generally positive towards other peoples comments. Talk about gloom and doom. If you get on this site and only agree with your buddies and always diagree with people who have doubted you that is pretty lame IMHO.

[Xi Bowhunter]

We can agree that Telechek is a problem, but it's not THE problem. It's no big news that the non-compliance rate is high, almost as high as the legal harvest rate. But it gives the data needed to the biologists that need to make the management decisions. Telelchek being off doesn't make it a stopper because the rate of non-compliance is consistant across the State. If it wasn't, then there would be a problem.

So, let's re-cap. There's a problem maintianing record harvests each year in the REGION. Many states reporting similar hunting conditions, all related to poor hatches. While most of these States on our borders and in the region are posting record declines in their harvestm, Kentucky has another record season. So, because of Telechek being off by 40%, the harvest is even larger than being reported. You would think the Jefferson Co. boys would be elated instead of full of doom and gloom? Sure as heck no reason to make drastic changes based on what isn't a problem! :cool:

I agree with you, telecheck isn't the only problem, but it is just one of the many factors we have been discussing.

[Multidigits]

[quote=coondog]Why does it seem some people get on here to just argue and spread their "wisdom"? Funny how you never see some of these hunters congratulating people for their harvests or being generally positive towards other peoples comments. Talk about gloom and doom. If you get on this site and only agree with your buddies and always diagree with people who have doubted you that is pretty lame IMHO.


HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS CONSTANT? Road block checks, various places across the State, all with virtually the same rate of violations.

WHICH REGION? GREEN RIVER? PURCHASE? IF YOU MEAN STATE DON'T SAY "REGION". Multi-Sate Region, mainly States on or border or in the South Eastern part of the country that would compare with our size and habitat.

I THOUGHT IS WAS ALL ABOUT ACORNS? Acorns are a factor in what the habitat will support. Most other factors are constant, acorns are not. That allows the flock to fluctuate from year to year by a few thousand birds.

WHAT RECORD DID WE SET? You already know that one.


DO NOT TRY TO LUMP ALL JEFF. CO. PEOPLE AS HAVING THE SAME OPINION. THAT IS LIKE SAYING EVERY ANTI-CROSSBOW PERSON IS A MEMBER OF THE UBK. Actually, I should have said 3rd District to get 95% of them. No, not all from Jefferson co. think differently--the surveys bear that out.

[Multidigits]

:) I agree with you, telecheck isn't the only problem, but it is just one of the many factors we have been discussing.

I agree, lot's of non-compliance. But it'll never change unless we reach the point that checking isn't needed any longer. Some states don't have game checking.....mainly because they've reached a point where hunting can't control the numbers or cause harm. Hopefully, we'll stay away from that for a few more years.

[Xi Bowhunter]

I just don't see why people can't be honest. Take your limit, let the officals know about it, and be happy to be hunting, what is so hard about that. What kills me is the guys who kill 8-10 deer every year, then complain that there isn't any deer "in their area".

[mossyhorns]

In the past years, MO has required turkeys to be checked where they were weighed and measurements taken. This year they went to the telecheck system. THe negative aspect of their telecheck is that it is voice operated and depends on the computer to understand what is said. I could not get the computer to understand the county name (Dent) and was transferred to a real live operator who didn't seem all that shot in the butt about taking info at 9:30 PM.

On the positive side, game can be checked in online, which I did painlessly with bird #2 after I got home. Also, the telecheck terminal prints out a two-part tag that is "peel 'em, stick 'em." Instead of whipping out a pen and filling in the harvest log, you peel off the the carcass tag and afix it to the bird immediately. This appears better than the harvest log concept to me, although I'm sure the MO tags are more costly.

MO has been a leader with their turkey program. They have one of the best turkey biologist in the country and have built their program from scratch using native populations of birds that were found in the south-central Ozarks. They place more emphasis on maintaining the quality of hunting over harvest numbers, but still take nearly 58,000 birds annually.

Their season started April 24 (Monday) and ran through the 2nd Sunday in May. Hunting stops at 1:00 PM daily. During the first week of season, hunters may only take 1 bird of the 2 bird limit. After week 1, hunters may take 1 or 2 birds depending on whether they connected during week 1.

Their success speaks for itself. Saturday morning on the last weekend of season, I heard no less than 18 different gobblers. Sure, there are quiet days, but when the birds are gobbling, it's awesome.

MO has always been conservative with the turkey program. There is pressure, however, to change the season structure. Some want a longer season or a split season like Arkansas. Like KY, they have also expanded fall opportunities. I don't know what the future holds, but right now MO is probably the premier destination for easterns.

[Multidigits]

In the past years, MO has required turkeys to be checked where they were weighed and measurements taken. This year they went to the telecheck system. THe negative aspect of their telecheck is that it is voice operated and depends on the computer to understand what is said. I could not get the computer to understand the county name (Dent) and was transferred to a real live operator who didn't seem all that shot in the butt about taking info at 9:30 PM.

On the positive side, game can be checked in online, which I did painlessly with bird #2 after I got home. Also, the telecheck terminal prints out a two-part tag that is "peel 'em, stick 'em." Instead of whipping out a pen and filling in the harvest log, you peel off the the carcass tag and afix it to the bird immediately. This appears better than the harvest log concept to me, although I'm sure the MO tags are more costly.

MO has been a leader with their turkey program. They have one of the best turkey biologist in the country and have built their program from scratch using native populations of birds that were found in the south-central Ozarks. They place more emphasis on maintaining the quality of hunting over harvest numbers, but still take nearly 58,000 birds annually.

Their season started April 24 (Monday) and ran through the 2nd Sunday in May. Hunting stops at 1:00 PM daily. During the first week of season, hunters may only take 1 bird of the 2 bird limit. After week 1, hunters may take 1 or 2 birds depending on whether they connected during week 1.

Their success speaks for itself. Saturday morning on the last weekend of season, I heard no less than 18 different gobblers. Sure, there are quiet days, but when the birds are gobbling, it's awesome.

MO has always been conservative with the turkey program. There is pressure, however, to change the season structure. Some want a longer season or a split season like Arkansas. Like KY, they have also expanded fall opportunities. I don't know what the future holds, but right now MO is probably the premier destination for easterns.

Wasn't Mo. in a fairly substantial decline this year????

[Valley Station]

Mossy,
Congrats on two nice ol' 'souri birds.
Kentucky's biologist say our turkey flock has stabilized to "carrying capacity" at about 200,000 birds with a spring harvest of 28,000 birds.
I realize Missouri is a little larger state, but, I wonder why it is that Missouri flock is at around est. at around 500,000 to 600,000 birds with a spring harvest of 60,000 birds ( 2005 harvest was 57,625 ).
Can Missouri habitat support twice as many turkey as Kentucky ??

[mossyhorns]

Opening week was down by fewer than 5000 birds. Haven't seen season totals yet.

Looks like they fluctuate much like KY does. 53.8k in 2005; 56.9k in 2004; 54.8k in 2003; 53.9k in 2002; 55.3k in 2001; 56.8k in 2000; Fall harvest fluctuates from 11.5k to 14.5k. If the pattern holds, 2006 harvest should be lower than the peak years.

One interesting aside: In 1998 when they expanded an extra week in May, total jumped from 33k in 97 to 48.3k in 98, then 50.3k in 99.

[JDMiller]

I'll throw something else in the mix about Missouri thats probably unrelated but they have more public ground than just about any state I've seen. Just about every county has several tracts set aside for hunting and public use. If you could ever get your hands on their maps of public use areas....it's pretty amazing.

[mossyhorns]

Actually you can, JD. I have a book I bought from them that shows public land. Try this link: http://www.mdc.mo.gov/hunt/where.htm

[buckfever]

I'll throw something else in the mix about Missouri thats probably unrelated but they have more public ground than just about any state I've seen. Just about every county has several tracts set aside for hunting and public use. If you could ever get your hands on their maps of public use areas....it's pretty amazing.

JD - I think one of the biggest deterrents to private land access in KY is the ongoing trespassing/poaching which occurs. I think this is so prevalent in KY b/c our trespassing laws are so lax.

Landowners just get fed up with constant trespassing, so they deny access to all hunters. For this reason, I don't think it's politically feasible to enact legislation here that allows public use of private land.

If we had tougher penalties in place (minimum $1000 fines, loss of hunting rights for 3 yrs. and confiscation of hunting equipment), I think we'd see less poaching, better PR for sportsmen, and more prevalent private land access.

Just my $.02.

[aceoky]

JD - I think one of the biggest deterrents to private land access in KY is the ongoing trespassing/poaching which occurs. I think this is so prevalent in KY b/c our trespassing laws are so lax.

Landowners just get fed up with constant trespassing, so they deny access to all hunters. For this reason, I don't think it's politically feasible to enact legislation here that allows public use of private land.

If we had tougher penalties in place (minimum $1000 fines, loss of hunting rights for 3 yrs. and confiscation of hunting equipment), I think we'd see less poaching, better PR for sportsmen, and more prevalent private land access.

Just my $.02.

I agree 100%! When one faces near nothing even when caught, they're not "apt" to obey such laws, when they know the game is "there".......many will "risk it",knowing even if caught, it's no "big deal", when that aspect changes(and I also think it needs to).....then things will likely improve in all of our favor!.

IMHO

[ryan hickey]

JD - I think one of the biggest deterrents to private land access in KY is the ongoing trespassing/poaching which occurs. I think this is so prevalent in KY b/c our trespassing laws are so lax.

Landowners just get fed up with constant trespassing, so they deny access to all hunters. For this reason, I don't think it's politically feasible to enact legislation here that allows public use of private land.

If we had tougher penalties in place (minimum $1000 fines, loss of hunting rights for 3 yrs. and confiscation of hunting equipment), I think we'd see less poaching, better PR for sportsmen, and more prevalent private land access.

Just my $.02.

agree as well - not a bad idea AT ALL

[JDMiller]

JD - I think one of the biggest deterrents to private land access in KY is the ongoing trespassing/poaching which occurs. I think this is so prevalent in KY b/c our trespassing laws are so lax.

Landowners just get fed up with constant trespassing, so they deny access to all hunters. For this reason, I don't think it's politically feasible to enact legislation here that allows public use of private land.

If we had tougher penalties in place (minimum $1000 fines, loss of hunting rights for 3 yrs. and confiscation of hunting equipment), I think we'd see less poaching, better PR for sportsmen, and more prevalent private land access.

Just my $.02.

BF....I agree with that as well. However I still think we need to be creative in ways to attract landowners in some form of partnership with the KDF&WR to allow more access to public ground. Some of the tax accentives discussed earlier in the year could be the answer.

[aceoky]

BF....I agree with that as well. However I still think we need to be creative in ways to attract landowners in some form of partnership with the KDF&WR to allow more access to public ground. Some of the tax accentives discussed earlier in the year could be the answer.

I agree with that as well, and IIRC, the State will also take care of the tresspassing problems themselves when done in other states? That would be a "win-win" for everyone??

[Multidigits]

Mossy,
Congrats on two nice ol' 'souri birds.
Kentucky's biologist say our turkey flock has stabilized to "carrying capacity" at about 200,000 birds with a spring harvest of 28,000 birds.
I realize Missouri is a little larger state, but, I wonder why it is that Missouri flock is at around est. at around 500,000 to 600,000 birds with a spring harvest of 60,000 birds ( 2005 harvest was 57,625 ).
Can Missouri habitat support twice as many turkey as Kentucky ??

I thought they said stable was at nearly 250,000 or so but what's 50,000 through out the State?

Yes to your question. Mo. has almost twice the land mass that Ky. has, and the population is denser in Ky.

[Multidigits]

Actually you can, JD. I have a book I bought from them that shows public land. Try this link: http://www.mdc.mo.gov/hunt/where.htm


Mo. has a lot more money to work with then most States do. they have succeded in fixing their long range finances, most states haven't been able to even get started on it.

[buckfever]

Mo. has a lot more money to work with then most States do. they have succeded in fixing their long range finances, most states haven't been able to even get started on it.

Multi - Why are Mo's public finances are all that important? Granted, Mo might have more flexibility and options as a result of that money, but I'm not sure where the public coffers fit into turkey managment (assuming that turkeys are already present and don't need to be stocked), private land access and the other things we're discussing on here.

It seems to me that in other less financially stable states w/out Mo's options and flexibility, those states' F&W depts would err on the side of shorter seasons and bag limits to insure the golden egg (i.e. the animal resources) don't end up as scrambled eggs.

Are you suggesting that there are states out there that are sacrificing their resources for the sake of raising revenue? If so, which states are you referring to?

[Multidigits]

Multi - Why are Mo's public finances are all that important? Granted, Mo might have more flexibility and options as a result of that money, but I'm not sure where the public coffers fit into turkey managment (assuming that turkeys are already present and don't need to be stocked), private land access and the other things we're discussing on here.

It seems to me that in other less financially stable states w/out Mo's options and flexibility, those states' F&W depts would err on the side of shorter seasons and bag limits to insure the golden egg (i.e. the animal resources) don't end up as scrambled eggs.

Are you suggesting that there are states out there that are sacrificing their resources for the sake of raising revenue? If so, which states are you referring to?

Not sure what this means? -- "Why are Mo's public finances are all that important"

But the discussion was on the vast areas of public hunting in Mo. My guess is (not being familiar with Mo. budgets) that having plenty of money is related somehow. I would think if Ky. had money to burn, that they would own 60,000 acres that used to belong to Peabody instead of 30,000 acres, and a worthless lease on another 30,000.

States like Ky. can't err on the side of LESS service, when there's other states out there competing for the few dollars that sportsmen have available. They have to provide as much as possible. There's a fine balance, between budgets and resources. It's not an easy job, but real easy to criticize when something happens out of the ordinary.

[mossyhorns]

Is the overall turkey flock in KY still growing or has it stablized?

[buckfever]

Is the overall turkey flock in KY still growing or has it stablized?

Multi - I see where you were going with your money point now, and I agree that revenues are important to insure public land access.

Mossy - According to KDFWR, the populations have stabilized. Here's an excerpt from a KDFWR press release in 2005:

"The state turkey flock is leveling off now, starting to reach saturation of what the land can support, and we’re seeing annual rates of poults (young turkeys) to hens coming in at about 3:1 versus 5:1 when the flock was really expanding in the early 1980s," said the biologist.

The reproductive rate, says Lane, is planing out to where it will likely stay now that birds have been well established in most counties and natural replenishment of the flock is not so great anymore for survival of the species. Many species of wildlife have a way of regulating themselves based on the amount of habitat available to support a certain sized population. Wild turkey numbers have reached carrying capacity over much of Kentucky now, and essentially, the flock is producing about the number of turkeys each spring that are harvested each year.

"Positive and negative fluctuations in the harvest from this point on is probably going to be the norm," Lane explained.

"It will be very unusual to see huge jumps in harvest like we did from the 2001 season to the 2002 season when hunters took about 5,000 more birds one season to the next."

"We won’t be having one record season after another anymore simply because the total volume of turkeys has leveled off close to where it’s going to remain unless something really unexpected or out of the ordinary occurs.

[mossyhorns]

Multi, do you concur with Lane's assessment?

[Multidigits]

Multi, do you concur with Lane's assessment?

From my understanding, the flock will fluctuate between 300,000 or so being the tops and about what we had this year being the bottom--basicly between 200,000 and 300,000 depending on the hatch and the available food sources. Things could happen to make it better, but most likely it'll happen to make it worse, such as loss of habitat.

So, yeah I believe it's reached that point. I know the lands that I have, it can't stand many more or the farmer is going to start blasting away at them. It's already been threatened. There might be some places in the west that haven't max'ed out yet, but there's not many.

Based on the nests we've seen this Spring, it's obvious that acorns are a big player in Spring reproduction. I'm sure this works in reverse as well. Hopefully, we'll have an up trend for a couple of years now based on what's in the nests this year.

[turk2di]

:)

I agree, lot's of non-compliance. But it'll never change unless we reach the point that checking isn't needed any longer. Some states don't have game checking.....mainly because they've reached a point where hunting can't control the numbers or cause harm. Hopefully, we'll stay away from that for a few more years.
I don't know. Maybe tele-chek is a problem, perhaps THE problem. But u still have to fill out the back of your license b4u even pickup the bird. Same risk a poacher took when a bird had 2b tagged! Does he sneak to the truck untagged or unwritten? Where's or when does telechek get in " in the field" blame?

[turk2di]

Wasn't Mo. in a fairly substantial decline this year????
Not from a lack of birds i hear! Bad weather & lots of it.

[turk2di]

So, yeah I believe it's reached that point. I know the lands that I have, it can't stand many more or the farmer is going to start blasting away at them.
Great! Then send some of them to Henderson, Co. It's nowhere near carrying capacity. Im not refering to bottomland either. Some counties maybe, but there are many out there that ain't.

[Multidigits]

Great! Then send some of them to Henderson, Co. It's nowhere near carrying capacity. Im not refering to bottomland either. Some counties maybe, but there are many out there that ain't.

What's the carrying capacity for a cut corn field and a small woodlot???? I know one 2800 tract down there that has a grand total of 180 acres of woods. Can a turkey roost on a corn stalk? ;)

[mossyhorns]

I had at least 6 toms roosting in a patch of woods that might go 5 acres this past weekend -- along with a compliment of hens and a bunch of jakes. The area in MO where I hunt is nothing but rolling pasture land and scattered woodlots.

I hear in TX they roost on telephone poles and utility towers.:eek:

[WBBP]

Mossy: Congratulations on your birds BTW.......

Turk: Turkeys will take pasture and woodlots over corn/soybeans and woodlots anyday....hence poor bird populations in west ky.

[WBBP]

Feedman: IMO

1) End all baiting-The Co's think that is would be the biggest bang for the buck to increase the turkley population. they feel that there is a high amount of harvesting turkeys over bait and I believe them. They should know.

2) Work with the legislature to make the laws for baiting/poaching/trespassing much tougher by having stiff mandatory penalties, not just leaving it to the discretion of the local prosecutors and judges.

This would be a good start.

K

[turk2di]

Mossy: Congratulations on your birds BTW.......

Turk: hence poor bird populations in west ky.
Carefull Kalen,You want to be sure thats what you mean, hence you will get pounced upon.

[turk2di]

What's the carrying capacity for a cut corn field and a small woodlot???? I know one 2800 tract down there that has a grand total of 180 acres of woods. Can a turkey roost on a corn stalk? ;)
I think that Ky's turkey Pop is in good shape. Im not preaching doom & gloom! Havibng said that, i don't agree that Ky's turkeys have reached statewide saturation. It's not just Henderson CO. Im bettin that there R other hunters on this site that would be surprised to learn that thier county has reached carrying capacity. Im certain that there R area's that have reached that point. But to suggest that state as a whole has i find premature.

[Multidigits]

I think that Ky's turkey Pop is in good shape. Im not preaching doom & gloom! Havibng said that, i don't agree that Ky's turkeys have reached statewide saturation. It's not just Henderson CO. Im bettin that there R other hunters on this site that would be surprised to learn that thier county has reached carrying capacity. Im certain that there R area's that have reached that point. But to suggest that state as a whole has i find premature.

I think the term used was nearly reached the carrying capacity, and that it will flucuate between a top and bottom number of turkeys. Your knowledgable enough to know that turkeys have a huge range and that it takes a lot more acerage per turkey than it does for a deer. Sure some areas could stand more turkeys on a daily bases, but during a years time, maybe not. We are close to what we'll have. Just like some counties have lots of deer, and some counties don't--some counties will have more turkeys than others. Just like some counties have elk, and some don't......on and on.

[buckfever]

Feedman: IMO

1) End all baiting-The Co's think that is would be the biggest bang for the buck to increase the turkley population. they feel that there is a high amount of harvesting turkeys over bait and I believe them. They should know.

2) Work with the legislature to make the laws for baiting/poaching/trespassing much tougher by having stiff mandatory penalties, not just leaving it to the discretion of the local prosecutors and judges.

This would be a good start.

K

I'd have no problem with eliminating baiting. Although I use bait to get trail cam pics, I can certainly see the potential for transmitting diseases and for being abused.

I'm a little surprised that baiting for turkeys is that big a problem. I just wouldn't think that shooting a turkey would be such a big deal that so many people would cheat just to get one.

I would love to see some tougher penalties on the books.

[schuyler olt]

I'd have no problem with eliminating baiting. Although I use bait to get trail cam pics, I can certainly see the potential for transmitting diseases and for being abused.

I'm a little surprised that baiting for turkeys is that big a problem. I just wouldn't think that shooting a turkey would be such a big deal that so many people would cheat just to get one.

I would love to see some tougher penalties on the books.

Ballard,

To appreciate the impact of baiting on turkeys, watch some cannon netting video. Had we allowed baiting during the early and middle phases of the restoration, we could have really put a serious hurt on them.

There is also a disease issue with a certain fungus that can be found on bagged corn.

[mossyhorns]

Sky, you're a turkey man. Do you agree with Lane's assessment that the flock in KY has leveled off?

I see far more birds in the jagged mountain areas of north AL and in the Ozark region of MO than I do in west KY.

[buckfever]

Ballard,

To appreciate the impact of baiting on turkeys, watch some cannon netting video. Had we allowed baiting during the early and middle phases of the restoration, we could have really put a serious hurt on them.

There is also a disease issue with a certain fungus that can be found on bagged corn.

Sky - I don't doubt that baiting turkeys is an easy way to kill them. I'm just a little surprised that people would find any big thrill in shooting a baited turkey when it's so easy to do so. I guess a fitting analogy would be shooting a big buck in a pen ala Jimmy Houston.

[Multidigits]

Out right out lawing baiting (feeding) of turkeys will not be very popular. what we'll probably see done first is a 3 month ban on feeders. That still might not eliminate backyard bird feeders, but will take away most of the feeders now used for deer, and that turkeys are killed over. What will be tuff, is doing something with salt and minerals....turkeys use those as well, and they can't be removed easily or stopped for a short time.

As for why people do it...it's mostly peer pressure. Folks want to be successful like they people they know, and they can't stand telling someone they got zilch for the season. Some realize they are terrible hunters and need serious help to ever kill a bird....corn makes it happen.

In the last few years, baiting cases have run in at about 100-150 or so statewide.....not a lot making it to a conviction.

[schuyler olt]

Sky, you're a turkey man. Do you agree with Lane's assessment that the flock in KY has leveled off?

I see far more birds in the jagged mountain areas of north AL and in the Ozark region of MO than I do in west KY.

Basically, I think we're getting close, given average reproduction rates, the number of birds being killed and the numbers of hunters taking part. At one time, George thought the flock could get as high as 500,000 IN THEORY. In other words, he felt that the habitat in Kentucky could feed and house that many birds. I don't think he ever thought it could get to that once you factored in hunting activity. And his big point was that it didn't need to--at our levels we're able to generally provide pretty high quality hunting in most areas to most hunters.

As to western Kentucky, you look at some of those enormous fields for row cropping and it reminds me of northern Indiana and central Ohio. There's not much habitat there for the birds. Waaaaaay back when the conventional wisdom was that turkeys would not be restocked in areas that did not contain 600 acre tracts of uniterrupted woodlands, the thought being that open areas would not support them. While that was disproved by the birds, I think they've equally proven to us that those large row crop fields won't hold much unless bordered by good nesting and roosting habitat.

Also, one problem in western Kentucky is that much of it is low, which increases risk of nest and poult loss in high water situations. I truly believe that wet springs hit the west part of the state much harder than the rest.

The bottom line is that if you could and wanted to impose a three year moratorium on turkey hunting in Kentucky, I would bet we could carry more than 200,000-250,000 birds. But that ain't gonna happen, I hope!

[mossyhorns]

Thank you, Sky. Very thoughtful post.

Bottom line then is that KY decided to cap the growth in exchange for longer seasons and higher limits earlier in the restoration program.

[schuyler olt]

Thanks, Mossy.

You pretty well summed it up, with one additional thought.

With deer and turkey (and elk) they will talk about physical carrying capacity and social capacity. The first is what the land will support. The second is a number that people will stand for--when the deer start denting too many fenders, eating too much of a cornfield, and too many flower beds are biting the dust. The social capacity is usually a lower number than the physical capacity.

So a balance was struck between getting all counties open (do you remember the days when you practically needed an atlas and a GPS to figure out where the open areas were?), providing opportunities for fall gun hunting,
and not having farmers upset seeing a wad of birds in a bean field.

I can't hardly imagine having twice the number of birds that we do today, so I question whether the original thought was correct on the total number of birds possible. Could we have more? Probably, but it may not be worth the steps that would need to be taken. I think right now we're in somewhat of a state of equilibrium, but that could go the wrong direction if we're not careful and not thinking several years down the road.

[coondog]

We are losing a lot of land to development as well which hurts. Turkeys do not thrive as much when there is the checker board spawl going on like there is around a lot of the best soils in Ky. Also I think the manicured and over timbered farms that are in the the farmland thats left out there hurts the turkey habitat.

[schuyler olt]

No question about it.

[maxcam]

I think that you might be surprised where a turkey might take up residence.....I have seen on more that one ocassion a Tom ( strutting once even) along I-65 between the outer loop exit and the on ramp to the Gene Snyder Freeway! I would suspect he came from the Forestry.....

[coondog]

I have seen them in Cox's Park on River Rd. near downtown Louisville. Sure they will live near urban and developed areas but not like rural farmland.

[schuyler olt]

I have seen a couple hens in CHEROKEE park!!!!!!!

Pretty nice buck, too.

But the point made above about habitat is very true. There's no question that it will reduce the ultimate number of birds that Kentucky can theoretically hold. Factor in also that with houses come dogs and cats, which further increases pressure on the birds in localized areas.

[Multidigits]

I think that you might be surprised where a turkey might take up residence.....I have seen on more that one ocassion a Tom ( strutting once even) along I-65 between the outer loop exit and the on ramp to the Gene Snyder Freeway! I would suspect he came from the Forestry.....

I know a guy that had an acre patch of pot growing there too, doesn't mean it's prime for that activity??? As for turkeys in the metro area, there's plenty of them around. One reason is virtually no hunting of them at all.

I think it's important to note that Sky's assessment AGREES almost 100% with that of what the Wildlife Dept. has released already......and I thought that was a sin coming from the 3rd District??? :D

[schuyler olt]

I know a guy that had an acre patch of pot growing there too, doesn't mean it's prime for that activity??? As for turkeys in the metro area, there's plenty of them around. One reason is virtually no hunting of them at all.

I think it's important to note that Sky's assessment AGREES almost 100% with that of what the Wildlife Dept. has released already......and I thought that was a sin coming from the 3rd District??? :D

That assessment was influenced by the work the KDFWR did in conjunction with the Smart Growth Task Force. Urban Sprawl hurts us. And it is occuring in small towns across the state, not just in the big cities.

[Multidigits]

That assessment was influenced by the work the KDFWR did in conjunction with the Smart Growth Task Force. Urban Sprawl hurts us. And it is occuring in small towns across the state, not just in the big cities.

The "assesment" that the flock is stable at 225,000 to 250,000 turkeys doesn't have squat to do with Smart Growth Task Force's, now does it?????

Bottom line, inspite of what you've said in the past, what you posted in the last day and a half backs up what Jim Lane has already said about the turkey flock. I'm sure he appreciates the vote of confidence?? :rolleyes:

[mossyhorns]

I can't speak for Sky, but while we may agree that what Lane said is correct, we don't necessarily agree with the road the Dept. has taken on turkeys -- to exploit the resourse as soon as the flock reaches a "sustainable" level. Even if 500,000 birds is an unreasonable goal, every increase over the current population would add to the quality of hunting, ie: more gobblers gobbling.

There are two smoke screens being raised:
1. Trying to equate the turkey population to the deer population is rediculous. While there may be a strong need to keep the deer herd in check, there is no pressing need to do the same with the turkey flock. There's even a lot of misinformation floating about that killing hens will have the same positive effect on turkeys as killing does. The comparisons are not just apples to oranges -- it's more like apples to hedgehogs.

2. The incidence of populations in urban areas are irrelevent in terms of overall population indicators. Again, the comparisons to deer are implied. There are deer and turkey in urban areas simply because they are not hunted. Regardless of what big insurance companies want, a large number of deer/car collisions on the Watterson does not mean that the herd should be reduced in Knott or Hickman counties. Similarly, the sighting of a turkey in an urban area does not mean that the state is overrun by turkeys.

I have a farm in west KY that is optimum turkey nesting habitat. I saw the first turkeys there last spring, heard the first gobblers there this past season. I do not infer from this that turkeys are in short supply statewide, but do realize that not all areas of the state have progressed equally in terms of turkey restoration.

[schuyler olt]

The "assesment" that the flock is stable at 225,000 to 250,000 turkeys doesn't have squat to do with Smart Growth Task Force's, now does it?????

Bottom line, inspite of what you've said in the past, what you posted in the last day and a half backs up what Jim Lane has already said about the turkey flock. I'm sure he appreciates the vote of confidence?? :rolleyes:

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the assessment regarding habitat needs and impacts.

The number of turkeys didn't start with Jim Lane.

And to be clear, my SINGLE difference of opinion I have had with Jim is over whether Xbows should have been opened up on turkeys for 138 days or something less. As far as I'm concerned, that disagreement is absolutely past--time will tell depending on how much that sport grows in Kentucky.

You can keep harping on it Tom, but it's really old news.

[Multidigits]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the assessment regarding habitat needs and impacts.

The number of turkeys didn't start with Jim Lane.

And to be clear, my SINGLE difference of opinion I have had with Jim is over whether Xbows should have been opened up on turkeys for 138 days or something less. As far as I'm concerned, that disagreement is absolutely past--time will tell depending on how much that sport grows in Kentucky.

You can keep harping on it Tom, but it's really old news.

Not to mention your desire to lower Fall limits that were recently raised to accomodate your season adjustment. Extra pressure was fine then, and it is old news. Only thing, those that know how it went down haven't forgotten it yet. :D


Mossy, I agree with what your saying but it's off base. I'm not aware of any state that has canceled a hunting season to allow the herd or flock to increase in size. To do so would be suicide. Anti-hunters would have a field day with it, and most likely, it would be the death of that particular season. At that point, there would be no management of turkeys except mother nature and irate farmers. I don't believe we need that nor would we want it.

Also, all things aren't created equal. Nobody promised that everybody would have equal numbers of game animals for our pleasure. It's not possible for many reasons. If your farm is prime habitat, there's no reason why you won't have turkeys eventually. I'm sure you will in time.

I also agree that turkeys in urban areas have no relevance to anything. They can't be hunted in most cases, so they are useless for the most part.

As for killing hens, it's part of it. A couple of years ago, people struggled because most gobblers were henned up terrible bad, this year it didn't happen that way, as they were already done with the hens for the most part. Too many hens does exsist in areas, but it is a different situation than with deer. Still it doesn't hurt anything to kill a few in the fall when there is an excess number of birds needed to sustain the flock.

[Valley Station]

Mossy,
I agree totally.
Highest turkey densities are going to inhabit "prime" habitat, with secondary habitats having few or birds only seasonally.
During the restoration years, the philosophy was, As turkey densities increase in "prime" habitat, the flock expands to secondary areas.
Seems that there are many areas , with the last two "bad hatches and increased local turkey harvest, the trend is reversing. Most the areas , that I hunt, we're hearing about a 1/10 the birds now, as we did 5-years ago.
There is a lot of "secondary habitat" in Kentucky with "low turkey densities" and it doesn't have to be that way.

With Kentucky's law on use of corn piles for baiting deer and "corn feeders",
many "prime turkey habitats", with turkey density artificially concentrated, are determined by who spends the most money on "corn piles".
It's not just "bagged corn" that is the problem.
Some "guide services" lease up property, plant big corn fields, bushhog the corn fields during turkey season, leaving shelled corn "knee deep", pulling turkey from all the surrounding "secondary habitat" and "sale the turkey" for $300/day.
Wild Turkey to the "highest bidders. And this is legal in Kentucky!

If we make it illegal to "corn feed concentrate" turkeys and have a couple of decent hatches, flock would definitely expand.

We have it pretty good, but, it could be much better. Maybe, even as good as Missouri.