Deer & Elk Need Your Help

[DC]

Folks,

Kentucky's wildlife needs your help once again. Yesterday, an amendment to HB 470 was proposed and passed that redefines Livestock to include "deer or elk that are privately owned and raised in a confined area for breeding stock, food, fiber, and other products". This amendment was proposed by Senator Vernie McGaha (Casey, Adair, Russell, & Pulaski Counties) and passed out of the Senate Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee. It may go to the senate floor as early as Monday. KDFWR does not need this bill to pass the Senate intact. Please call Senator McGaha to voice your concern as well as calling your own Senator to request the amendment changing the definition of livestock be removed. KDFWR should retain jurisdiction for regulation of deer and elk in Kentucky.

Please call 1-(800) 372-7181 to leave your Senator a message.

[rlb165]

DC, I called the number, and went on record as opposing deer and elk being classified as livestock. I was given another # to call, "status" something or other, 1-888-829-0021. The kids were getting rowdy by then, I couldn't hear much of what was being said.

If I'm understanding this right, this amend. would allow buying/selling/keeping deer and elk as if they were regular domesticated cattle....? Surely not.

Richard Burton

[mossyhorns]

rlb, the amemdment to HB 470 would transfer control of commercial deer and elk farms from KDFWR to the KY Dept. of Ag. This was done in response to the Dept. declaring a moratorium on game farm permits to prevent the spread of disease. If passed, the KDFWR would have no say over these commercial operations and the potential for introduction of diseases such as CWD would be very high.

[raktrakr]

in other words, someone sees dollar signs,and when the dept. has no more control, then the rocketship blasts off!!!

[mossyhorns]

Found this link in the Huntcentral forum. Looks like CWD has been found in Wisconsin. Read the article from the link and tell me if you think the Dept. of Ag will do an adaquate job to protect wild herds from diseases brought in via captive herds.

http://207.201.176.42/nw/pt.php?cid=bc89363946fa0bbd616787f384017e0d&pid=749840043468d01b98fc554d7fa4b2ec

[rlb165]

I got a nifty little letter from my State Senator today, thanking me for expressing concern on this issue.

The letter said my phone call was the deciding factor in the outcome of this vote, and as I understand it, the vote went in favor of KDFWR retaining control over deer and elk farms.

Furthermore, the letter stated that KDFWR was deeply indebted to me, and that I should be thinking of my demands. I'll have to get back to you on those.

Your faithful servant,

Richard Burton

ps. Ok, I really did get the letter, thanking me for my concern. I might have ad-libbed the rest of it.

[DC]

But you should get a letter! My hats off (oohh, my head is getting cold)too all who are taking the time to telephone their elected representatives to keep KDFWR in the elk and deer business (HB 470) and to help clean up KY with HB 174.

Thanks!

[Bowcrazy]

I think we are in pretty good shape on HB470, don't know about the other one though.

[MULESKINNER]

Why does the KDFW need to maintain controll of elk and white tail deer?
Local farmers across the state are doing fine with their herds of cows, sheep, pigs, chickens etc... Though not free ranging here, they are in many states and there doesnt seem to be any detriment to free ranging animals or the "state herd" in those areas.
I have confidence that anyone willing to shell out the high price for elk or whitetail deer would be keenly aware that his investment must be protected and would: select only tested and healthy animals from a proven resource, maintain a healthy herd and lastly I feel that public ranching of these animals would and has proven to create a stronger gene pool for stocking or restocking purposes.
Field and Stream magazine researched the effects of private "closed quarter ranching" and found that the average ranch animal was much bigger, stronger, and healthier than the neighboring free ranging animals maintained by the state. It is only in the ranchers best interest to maintain and maximise a healthy and productive herd.
Im sure there are cases of ranch animals being neglected or even spreading disease to free ranging animals but these are definetly the exceptions and not the rule. Free range animals will contract disease and die even if ranching never existed. The American public is completely capable and HAS created the Utopia we live in through capitalism (only with the inclusion of our creator and God) and freedom. The rule is that private capitalism has created healthier and stronger herds in every state where it is allowed.
I support and have the upmost respect for our KDFW and feel that in most all cases the department is working in the best interest of the public and our state wildlife.
I do not have hard data nor have I specific knowelge of case studies involving these matters, but I do have confidence in the American public. I know that the American sportsmen and women are some of the most responsible citizens in our great state and are completely capable of caring for themselves and their investments.
Let the KDFW enforce existing laws, not assist in creating new ones.
REMEMBER this bill or law IS A RESTRICTION ON Y O U R FREEDOM!
<font face='Verdana'></font id='Verdana'>This reply is not intended to be divisive or provoking, only my simple belief in my God, the American way, and the American sportsmen and women. Thank you.

[DC]

Simply ask Nebraska, South Dakota, Kansas, Sasketchewan, Wisconsin, Montana and South Korea how well the private elk rancher did in preventing CWD from being "sold" to these states. Also, ask about Elk Echo Ranch in Colorado where an elk rancher was throwing dead/diseased elk into a gully and selling infected animals to 19 other states. Of course I too am a capitalist but I also realize the "all mighty" dollar will lead some people into doing dishonest and harmful things to other people. This is also the way England had to slaughter 4 million head of sheep and cattle because one pig farmer fed his stock illegal slop and when his animal showed up with hoof and mouth disease he hurried it off to the market where he infected large portions of his country and severely damaged the agricultural economy of his nation.

Sorry, these disease prevention rules are in place for the same reason as other rules--people aren't perfect and they need them. Can you imagine our highway system without speed limits?

Finally, another reason the KY Fish & Wildlife Agency should stay involved in elk and deer ranching is because elk and deer are wildlife, whether you put them in a pen or not. Cows and horses don't grow wild in Kentucky but elk and deer do. I'm not suggesting that the State Dept. of Agriculture isn't an excellent steward of livestock--I believe they do an excellent job! I just think that a partnership between the two agencies is the only way to have half a chance at sparing Kentucky some of the disease heartaches other states are experiencing. However, sometimes I fear there is nothing that can be done to prevent a "fly-by-night-operator" from bringing a bargain and diseased animal to Kentucky. Let's cross our fingers, better yet let's pray.

[MULESKINNER]

DC,
Thank you for your response. I would like to emphasize again that I respect and support the KDFW and am not criticizing the department, but simply asking a few questions and stating a few opinions.
You made it obvious that you have much more knowledge on this topic and for that I am thankful. With that being said there are a few things I wish to ask/address.
You mentioned "the almighty dollar will lead some people into doing dishonest and harmful things to other people". I would like to suggest that "some people" may also include state officials (operation bop trot is a good example as well as countless other shams). Where there is power there will be greed, and where there is greed there will be people doing "dishonest and harmful things to other people" regardless of their employer. There will be "fly by night operators" of elk ranches just as there will be another operation bop trot. Of that I am certain. I truly feel that you using your statement as a defense for expanded government control is an insult to the American public.
You mentioned that other states were sold infected or diseased animals. This is the part that reinforces my confidence in KYFWD restocking effort because I am fairly confident that we did not purchase any infected animals (again...I have no hard data about this). It does leave me concerned about these other states. The federal government has deemed it necessary to stamp or print on our currency "e pluribus unum". These other states not following that simple advice given by our government seems almost like a neglect of the diligence required in researching a resource for the stocking of game animals for their PUBLIC. This neglect on the part of these other states may not have been "dishonest" but it was obviously "harmful" as it must have cost the public a lot of their money in addition to the obvious negative impact on the state herd. If they were so easily shamed why weren’t we?
I am truly grateful to you and the KDFW for your efforts to reintroduce these animals into our state and hope the good work continues. The cases of diseased animals being sold to states are definitely the exception and not the rule. I do think using those cases is not an adequate portrayal of the states being better stewards of wildlife than the private sector, as both exhibited neglect it seems.
It actually seems like you may be trying to depict state governments as being inadequate in restocking efforts since they obviously allowed diseased animals to be purchased for restocking.
You likened the subject of private ranching of elk to a highway with no speed limits, Perhaps allowing the private sector the right to ranch without state controls would be a highway with no speed limits, but as you want it there will be no highway. I would fully support this highway (public ranching) with speed limits (state controls), and as you mentioned the state dept of agriculture already does an excellent job with the speed limits.
I am sure that banning Kentuckians from ranching these animals is not going to cause disharmony between the KDFW and the public nor hurt the existing herd. We owe a debt of gratitude to you and the department for the reintroduction of these animals and I am sure we will all enjoy the benefits of your hard work and our tax money for years and years to come.

I am not angry or embittered because of this, but only concerned that once again big brother has seen fit to deem me, as a private citizen, incompetent in the stewardship of these animals as entitled to me by my God.

[DC]

I certainly don't mean to imply that government officials have cornered the market on honesty--all men (and women) are much less than perfect.

Some of the states that are infected with CWD in the wild or in captivity had pretty good protective regulations. I fear that some of the differences between states that have CWD and those that don't is just old-fashioned luck. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be on guard. Our Creator provided the "beasts of the earth" for our dominion and use. However, we are to be proper stewards of these wonderful creatures. It is not our right to decide which of God's creations are his good ideas and which are not--by definition they are all fantastic ideas and we should strive to conserve all species.

In the days before our highly mobile society it would have been difficult for man to spread such diseases around the globe. Howevever, when we learned to sail, drive, and fly our ability to have greater impacts on our planet increased dramatically. In the case of these wildlife diseases we now have the ability to transport a diseased animal to more than one location before we even know that animal is sick and certainly before it dies from the disease. This is one reason, as a society (not just government) we must be smart enough to put limits on ourselves to make sure we don't do more harm than good.

[MULESKINNER]

I understand your passion and commitment to this project. I know how when the first KY baby elk was born it must have created a sense of elation and pride like that of a new father. I understand your concern and why you would be protetctive of something you worked so hard for, but just like a father, there will come a time when you have to entrust them to the world and relinqish control.
I have not seen any proof that private ranching will be a detriment to the state herd or to the taxpayer. You cannot and should not judge the public based on speculation derived from exceptions to the standard order of business in OTHER states.
I wish I had more info. I wish someone could bring forth overwhelming facts supporting your theory, because I want to trust my KDFW and the decisions they/you make. As of now however, all I see is a request for more control by the KDFW beacause they do not trust their public. The reasoning used for your defense if filled with holes as I have pointed out. I suppose I should not grow apples because I may transport them to far off regions where my apples may spoil someone elses whole batch. We do live in a society where that can easily happen every day. Perhaps public travel should be restricted due to the threat of spreading disease to other states.
You get my drift.
You suggested that we should recognise when to put limits on ourselves in order to keep from doing more harm than good. I emphaticly agree. So it is upon that notion that I ask...How will (not may) private ranching cause more harm than good?

[creekhunter]

Haven't posted here in awhile. Just recently read this thread. This appears to me as a very simple issue. Fact is the needs of the many are always greater than the needs of the few. Our founding fathers knew that which is why our Counstitution is worded the way that it is. Unfortunately, that montra has been lost in modern times, replaced with the battle cry of political correctness and oversensitivity to small groups. That being said, there are a helluva lot more deer and elk hunters out there than deer and elk ranchers. So, it bothers me not that the KDFW is going the extra mile to see that the needs of the many are protected here, albeit at the expense of the few. NO RISK, no matter how slight is acceptable. The KDFW exists, in part, to protect Ky.'s wildlife resources. Looks alot to me like that is what the Commissioner and his staff are trying to do.

Keep up the good work.