One turkey per day [Archive] - Kentucky Hunting Forums

Valley Station

05-12-2003, 03:45 PM

I have never shot two or more turkeys with one shot. But, I know several hunters (actually 5 or 6) who have accidently shot multiple birds with one shot and I beleive it to actually be quite common.
I know of two cases were actually three birds were killed![V] The individuals who were involved are experienced turkey hunters, generally careful and wouldn't consider doing it intentionally.
If it had been legal to tag them both, they would have gladly. The additional birds didn't go to waste, but, did not get Telecheked.[V]
It has never happened again, to any of these hunters.
I like the one (1) bird per day rule in general, but, I wouldn't have real objection to some kind of change to cover these cases.
Maybe a rule, that would "allow one mistake", before charged with breaking the law. [?]

greenskeeter

05-12-2003, 03:53 PM

It seems like sound reasoning for this restriction. The obvious drawback that comes to mind to me is not the scenario where multiple birds show up at once, but rather the scenario in which someone with very limited time available gets one "right off the bat". Bright and early in the morning, you are able to call one in and take him. Due to work constraints, this is your last weekend to hunt. It certainly would be nice to be able to take care of the harvested bird and then get back down to business and make the most of your limited time in the field. You might choose to hunt the same area in the afternoon, try a different setup on a close ridge, or try a totally different farm.

Just another situation to consider.

Finn209

05-12-2003, 06:24 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gsp
 I'm guessing there was some thought that a lot of folks would be taking their second shot at a running/flying bird and we would loose a lot of birds due to cripples. I don't know if this was in the though process, IMO it should be.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

GSP,
Your thoughts were the exact reason that I was given, back when I asked about it. Jeff

http://prod.bsis.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/9/9518/folders/3361/15369flyfisher.gif

P. Beyer

05-12-2003, 07:49 PM

As I read the post on this topic,.....

Both or rather all points of view make complete and perfect sense. From the crippling of birds to limitd time afeild, to 2 birds with one shot (because it happens more than 1 would think).....

Keep this one up!

"It makes no difference whether I got anything; it has to do with how the day was spent"

Fred Bear

Ky Headhunter

05-13-2003, 11:39 AM

Always heard it was to spread out the harvest. I can see the value of that on hard hunted public land; leaving the other bird to be hunted another time, even if he is a little more wary. gsp also brings up a good point to consider.

Multidigits

05-13-2003, 12:32 PM

So, were back to Big58 analogy of deer not as valuable as turkeys. You can flock shoot deer and it doesn't matter if their running or not. you shouldn't be regulated on something that a few unethical hunters might do.

Ky Headhunter

05-13-2003, 02:33 PM

??? How in the heck did deer hunting enter into this one ??? 
True, you can't legislate ethics. But I think the crippled bird thing is just a small positive side effect, with spreading the harvest (esp. on public land) being the main intended effect.

A week ago it seemed there was a general consensus that KDFWR should stop screwing with the regs so much. Guess I misjudged?

schuyler olt

05-13-2003, 02:51 PM

KyHeadhunter, I think that consensus to stop screwing with the regs remains, at least it does for me. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss changes we would like to see. When changes are made in haste without being thought through, those are typically the ones that aren't the best. The question that started this thread was why the one bird limit exists, which is a really good question to ask, and one that all of us have probably asked at one time or another. The same sort of thing has been raised in the discussion of too many hens and the possibility of an additional week in the future. Any change to the Spring season next year must occur by August of this year, so it's not too early to start thinking about 2005. Personally, I would oppose any changes in 2004. I personally don't think we have the birds to support a significantly larger harvest right now, but I think that day is coming. I also don't think that this year is a good one to use as a platform to change because of the weather,and the inclusion of an Easter weekend. But, the sooner we start thinking about it, the more input we get, the more problems we discover and hopefully resolve, and the better the result for the hunter, the landowner and the resource. Lengthening the turkey season thankfully doesn't smack any other seasons, and I sure don't want to see the fall seasons changed for a looooooong time![xx(][B)]By the way, there is a possibility that the duck season may go down to 45 days, but that awaits more hatch results. Initially they thought it would be bad, but apparently the hatching areas have really had a turn of fortune recently.[:D]

Multidigits

05-13-2003, 03:05 PM

The point is that the all day hunt was to aid those with limited time afield or might not get to hunt as much as some of us do. Using that chain of thought, the one and done deal doesn't fit. It makes prefect sense to look at allowing this at some point in the future. The policy has always been to encourage more oppurtunity anytime the resource can handle it. I agree with fewer changes are good, but if you can get a reg. that is no longer needed off the books, that's good too.

Ky Headhunter

05-13-2003, 03:16 PM

Yeah, it's definitely a legitimate question. And we do all have our wish list of changes we'd like to see, but apparently my list is shorter than most[:p]

Ky Headhunter

05-13-2003, 03:34 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It makes prefect sense to look at allowing this at some point in the future<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now, I would have no problem with that. Research, studies, etc. are what I suppose I've been getting at in both this thread & the one on spring hens. If the evidence is there, I wouldn't much oppose either of those changes. These are fairly big changes (the spring hen thing would be a huge change), so I don't think asking for a little research to back it up is unreasonable.

turk2di

05-13-2003, 05:55 PM

Here's my 2 cents worth. Keep it at 1 bird per day. I hunt Peabody and it get's plenty of pressure from out of staters opening week. If you were 2 allow them 2 birds a setting, it would be a colossial cluster u know what? Why allow them 2 birds a pop? People in the know, (i.e. experts) say it ain't good, so why are we even debating this at all? If George Wright say's it not the thing to do, end of story as far as im concerened. He was a trained and successfull biologist,who appointed us as biologist? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

what u get out, is what u put in

Boss Gobbler

05-17-2003, 04:51 PM

I agree with Multi a dead bird is a dead bird, and a ethical hunter is an ethical hunter. First you get two tags why does it matter if you spread them out or take both in one day? Second someone who takes a bad shot and wounds a bird would probably do so anyway. I bring up this question because I have accidently shot two birds with one shot, and it is a nightmare calling a co. he automaticly treats you like a poacher. It is like a federal case to prove your inisence. The event in which I speak I called in two birds, I wanted the one in back. I waited until they were three feet a part and shot both birds fell. You have to understand that a 3 1/2 shotshell has over 600 pellets a few go stray. The crazy thing was that the co. gave me a tag for one and I tagged the other, and left me still to fill another tag.

greenskeeter

05-19-2003, 07:49 AM

Boss, did he keep the bird he tagged?

Boss Gobbler

05-24-2003, 05:51 PM

No.

greenskeeter

05-27-2003, 07:54 AM

I agree Boss, that certainly would no way serve as a deterrant not to do it again. Let's see, shoot two, call the CO, have him tag one, hunter keeps it and has a tag left to legally hunt tomorrow. Doesn't quite seem right to me. I would think at a minimum he would put your tag on the second bird. And unless he not feel overly generous, slap a fine on top of it. In either case, giving another tag doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I'm just missing something...

schuyler olt

05-27-2003, 11:37 AM

It sounds like the CO wanted to reward somebody for having the integrity to admit an error. Two birds in one day would definitely increase the harvest, particularly of jakes. Think how many times over the years you've killed one and could've easily killed his buddy, and then had tag soup with that second tag. I killed two birds in one day in Texas, but that was on a four bird limit. If that would've filled my tag right then and there, I sure would have missed two more fun days in the woods. There's reasons on both sides of it that are valid, but it's definitely something that needs to wait a year or two. And by the way, this cold, wet weather is making me REALLY nervous.

Valley Station

05-27-2003, 12:32 PM

There are already many poults hatched out in this wetter, greener and colder than normal spring. Let's hope the hens can keep them "brooded under wing" till it warms and drys up.
We didn't have a good early hatch last spring, don't need two in a row.[V]

Ky Headhunter

05-27-2003, 11:16 PM

We might be seeing the "other shoe" drop; guess we're due. Hope I'm wrong. Don't like the latest 7-day outlook the weather guy put up this morning.

Big58cal

05-28-2003, 12:52 PM

Multi brought up my arguement. How many people on here have shot at running deer? How many were killed and how many wounded that were never found. If the KDFWR doesn't limit (and never has to my knowledge) the number of deer you can take in one day (following tag and zone restrictions), why is it such a big deal with turkeys? Why not change the reg so that if you're hunting public land, the 1 bird/day is still in effect, but allow more than 1 if you're on private land. This will help the people that have limited time to hunt and the people that get 2 with one shot, but still keep the hunting pressure the same on public lands. With the total use of Telecheck, there is nothing preventing someone from: a) taking 2 birds/day and checking them in over two days, b) killing 2 and only checking 1 in, c) not checking any birds at all. The individual person's code of ethics is what governs this, as well as whether or not they would take a shot at a flying/running bird.

I would like to see some type of documented study that states that the harvest would increase, and that it would be detrimental to the population to allow both birds to be taken in one day. Regardless of what the thing turns out to be, people will continue to do what they have been doing in the past.

grouseguy

05-28-2003, 01:23 PM

I will have to side with Big & Multi on this one. IMHO, they have presented the only logical and defensable positions in this thread.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by schuyler olt
 I think that consensus to stop screwing with the regs remains, at least it does for me....When changes are made in haste without being thought through, those are typically the ones that aren't the best. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Damn Sky, when I read this comment...the new fall turkey season just jumps into my mind. That sentence must have been difficult to type considering the way you all slipped in that little "back-door" treat on the rest of us.[V][}:)][:(!]

schuyler olt

05-28-2003, 01:52 PM

When I was hunting in Ohio, those guys were amazed that we don't have to drag our birds to a check station. In Texas and Georgia, all you have to do is put a tag on them, and I believe Colorado and Florida were the same. You don't check them in at all. The reg was originally put in place to keep down the number of birds that were taken, and maybe it's time has come in a couple of years.

Multidigits

05-28-2003, 03:35 PM

That's my thoughts....leave things alone for the next year or so. The new Fall season is enough change to digest. Those that want less hens, can do something about it then, if they want.

schuyler olt

05-28-2003, 04:02 PM

Grouseguy,
George Wright was thinking towards a fall season years and years ago, from the point he started doing restocking. The original thought way back when was October, and December pretty much "got slipped in" on those who were working on a fall season. (That was before I became Pres). The fall October season was raised again just about a year ago, in early August I believe, and adopted in March. I still have several sore body parts from that one![:0] As much as you and I went round and round on it, one thing I have to say is that because of this forum, more people were able to have more input and debate on this issue than probably any that I can remember up until then, which was great. The fall season debate didn't focus on impact to the resource--the only issue was impact on deer and turkey hunting opportunities. As far as fall turkey hunting was concerned, the impact on the resource had been studied continuously for years. The two birds in one day issue is an issue that directly involves impact on the resource--those are the types of issues I was particularly referring to when I spoke of hasty decisions. Impacts on hunters by season dates and limits are one thing. A bad decision on the resource is an entirely different thing, and one that can screw up the resource for a very long time. When I'm sitting here looking at more rain and more forecasted cool temperatures right when the poults are hatching, especially on the heels of two successive years where we absolutely hammered the toms, my sense is to be very, very cautious.

Ky Headhunter

05-28-2003, 04:59 PM

The wounded bird theory was just brought up as a possible positive side effect of the reg, not the main reason for it.
Big, I would tend to agree that separate regs for public/private could be a good compromise, provided we aren't opposed to screwing with the regs[:)] On heavily hunted WMA's, the idea of leaving the "2nd bird" to be hunted another time IS both logical & defensible, in my humble opinion.

Multidigits

05-28-2003, 05:13 PM

Maybe one bird total would be good on WMAs???? But I don't hunt any other than Ft. Knox, which is one already, so maybe I'm biased. I know a couple of the WMAs get hammered pretty good the way it is now.

Big58cal

05-28-2003, 08:53 PM

Grouseguy has a point as far as "slipping" the fall season in. How can one say that it wouldn't impact the resource with more days afield? If you give people, even with a 1 bird limit, 7 days to hunt, the harvest will be "X". If you give people 14-21 days to hunt, even still with the 1 bird limit, the harvest is going to be at least 1.5 x "X". Logic tells you that the harvest will be more. As far as not affecting the resource: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The fall season debate didn't focus on impact to the resource--the only issue was impact on deer and turkey hunting opportunities. As far as fall turkey hunting was concerned, the impact on the resource had been studied continuously for years. The two birds in one day issue is an issue that directly involves impact on the resource--those are the types of issues I was particularly referring to when I spoke of hasty decisions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Sounds like since the fall season will definitely impact the population, it was a hasty decision that may have been slipped in. As far as input, there wasn't 30 different people that had input on that discussion on this site. How many THOUSAND hunters do we have in the state?

Everyone needs to realize that 2 birds/day (or more) are already being harvested, whether accidently or on purpose. If the population keeps expanding in spite of this, where is the problem? Where is the biological study to say that this is a bad thing? I know KY is not the only one thinking of this, and will not be the first to go to it. There has to be a study out there that has studied the 'before' and 'after' of the 2 bird/day change.

My point in all of this is that I believe that the 1 bird/day limit was put in when the population was still needing expansion. With the season open in all of KY's 120 counties, the harvest continually increasing each year, and the desire of the KDFWR to further expand the opportunities of the hunting public, why not change it?

"Nature's Law Of Tooth And Claw Is Far Crueler Than Any Death I Could Ever Impose" - Fred Bear

GSP

05-28-2003, 09:00 PM

I was one that put a few sore spots on Sky during the debate of the Oct season. Since it has passed, it really doesn't matter much to me. I probably won't hunt them then because December is a better time for me. BTW, How do you hunt them in Oct?
I really can't tie the two bird a day limit to this argument and I won't.
I an against the two a day spring limit. I know one can not legislate ethics, but shooting a flying/running turkey can not be compared to shooting a running deer.
I have killed several score of deer, most have been running when I have shot them. 99% died in their tracks, none have traveled over 75yds! My style of hunting is probably different than most. I hunt meat and I hunt them like rabbits. I kick them out of honeysuckle thickets and I shoot them. Most shots are 75 yards or less. I shot a semi-auto 30/06 with 180gr bullets. Jumped deer do not run very fast and the white target they give you is deadly. Any lethal shot on a running deer can be tracked, but a lethal turkey CAN NOT be tracked. There was a story here about youth day where a guy had a kid shoot a turkey and it sailed across a lake. They hunted hard and the greatest thing I've ever read happened. They found it. That was wonderful, a hunter used every skill he had, passed along his skills and the kid learned the value of determination plus got his his first trophey. Bottom line, they got very lucky.
A turkey that is hit and not dropped in his tracks is a lost bird 99 out of a hundred times. A deer can be followed, turkeys can't.
I know this is not the primary reason for the law, but it is a good point.
This season I could have head chopped 3 two year olds the seconded weekend if I had my Browning auto instead of my 870. But (besides against the law) I am not out there for the kill, I'm there for the hunt.
I'm in favor of one a day. Also, I am in favor of a longer season. They hammered their heads off last week.

turk2di

05-29-2003, 05:57 AM

You can study the population impact of takin 2/day if you want to. May or may not have any overall effect. But it will have an immediate effect on additional opportunities for that season. Two guy's hunting together, up comes 4 toms, bang-bang-bang-bang!!!!! Two less toms heard the next morning while your settin there with your 9yr.old on his first trip! SSSSSiiiilllleeeennncccceeeee!!!!!!! We have , since George Wright's grip loosened, began to act like cat's away!!!!Leave thangs alone!!!!!!!!!!!

what u get out, is what u put in

Valley Station

05-29-2003, 07:20 AM

The decision to add an early fall(October) turkey gun season was made long before the debate on this forum. Prior to the commissioners meeting, this forum took a vote on early fall gun season. The response was an overwhelming "NO" or "HELL NO"[:(!] response to early fall turkey gun season!( 17 of the 18 votes were NO ).
"October Poult Shoot" was all money, sale more permits.[V]

grouseguy

05-29-2003, 08:37 AM

Valley's memory is spot on. This was a "done deal" between the NWTF and the bowhunters BEFORE it was ever brought up for discussion. Nearly ALL input was against this season, but the commission passed it anyway. Definitely not one of the NWTF's or bowhunters finest hours.

Sky, you're becoming guilty of the same thing that I spoke to the Commission about at the March meeting...The Commission publicly claimed to be listening to input from the sportsmen, but as was pointed out to them, their actions at that very meeting were contradictory to that statement. EVERYONE that was at that meeting or sent in a written response opposed the late youth deer season, BUT the commission passed it anyway as an accomodation to KDFWR management, completely ABSENT of any support from any individual or group. How is that significantly different from yours and the NWTF's position on expanded fall seasons, increased bag limits (season and/or daily), expanded seasons, turkey zones, etc. It's what a select few want that gets inacted, regardless of the desires of the hunters themselves.

I know you probably wake up each day and stick pins in a little grouseguy doll, but this type situation is EXACTLY why the Cyber-Hunters were organized...to give a voice to the average sportsmen that was being completely ignored, and if it takes ruffling a few feathers of the "good ole boys club" to do it, then so be it.

Back to the topic at hand, I have yet to hear a good response to my particular situation, which I would say is quite common. Due to my job, I basically get to turkey hunt 6 days (the 3 weekends). I killed a bird 15 minutes after daylight and was done for the rest of that day. I would have loved to have spent the rest of that day trying to fill my other tag with a mid-day gobbler. Given the status of our flock now, why was I not allowed that opportunity?

Personally, I endorse Big's proposal wholeheartedly as being in the best interest of all hunters.

Multidigits

05-29-2003, 08:52 AM

I think if the rule was changed, it would benefit those wanting to hunt later in the day following a kill more so than those wanting to kill two at a time. I think those situations would be rare for most of us. But if you killed one early, your day wouldn't be over if the rule was changed.

I'm looking forward to the fall season. I'm on board. You can't holler that we have too many hens and not like this season. With bow season starting earlier, it'll make a nice break before intense, hot rutting action hunting begins. Once my neck swells, I get after them pretty hard.

schuyler olt

05-29-2003, 09:01 AM

Valley, I agree with you as to when this surfaced. The first time I heard about it (and I know you still don't believe me, GG[:)])was at that committee meeting, and that was the day I got the addy for this website from Ronnie. The debate and vote process took place before I was a member, which would have been before the commission meeting, at which point the issue was tabled until the March meeting. That period was definitely the darkest days of my involvement in conservation.

Feedman

05-29-2003, 09:29 PM

I am new to this website and I enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this subject. My question is "How accurate do we think that the KFWR count is on the turkey population." Let' say that they are 10% off, That is a lot of turkeys. I know that they have lots of research on poult counts and survival rates etc, but still they are estimating the overall population. It may be greater in some areas and less in others. I would like to see a longer season. All states around us have a longer season. How many places have you hunted and taken a mature gobbler and seen at least one or more mature birds still in the area. It would be nice to get two birds in a day but i can live with just one. I did kill 2 birds last year with just one shot. I did not see the second turkey, he was down the hill 5 yards and 1 yard to the right of the first bird. I checked one in that day and the other the next day. I thought that this was the correct thing to do.

GSP

05-29-2003, 09:40 PM

Welcome to the site Feedman. Jump in with both feet.

The best part about all our debating here is, we are ALL right.
Just ask us![:D]
We fight, feud, fumble and fuss with each other. But seems all get smarter, more tolerant and we all have a common goal.
In my book you will not find a better bunch of folks to hang out with.
Rick-GSP

"Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog".

Ky Headhunter

05-29-2003, 10:35 PM

When was this deal brokered between NWTF & bowhunters? Who signed off on it on behalf of bowhunters? I belong to both NWTF & KBA... why wasn't I aware of this consortium[:(!][?]

As for hunting later in the day after a morning kill, surely there must be someone else you can go out with. I tagged out the second day this season (probably used up 10 yrs. worth of good luck[:0]), but I hunted (sans firearm) 14 of the remaining 19 days of the season with other people.

schuyler olt

05-30-2003, 08:21 AM

KyHeadhunter, I wasn't aware of it either. Jerry Napier and I talked back and forth through it as you might expect, but neither of us had advance notice that it was going to be proposed. Allen Gailor called me the day before the committee meeting (which I didn't even know was scheduled--if you recall, back then learning about such things was a tad difficult,and I wasn't on this forum then), and told me there were a bunch of turkey items on the committee agenda. I don't think it was either unreasonable or unpredictable that the pres of the turkey hunting organization and the pres of the UBK, with its deer hunting orientation, would try to work out potential differences and hopefully avoid a train wreck. In fact, I think it was the responsible thing to do. I should add that the longest discussion Jerry and I had about it was at a caucus meeting that members of cyberhunters were attending. I clearly recall, in fact, that while Jerry and I were discussing the issues involved, members of cyberhunters had Roy and Jon off to the side making their positions known, which was wholly appropriate. I will say this--had my involvement with CyberHunters then been what it is now, I would have involved them in the discussions between Jerry and me. As to the NWTF wanting to get something for turkey hunters, of course we were. Why wouldn't we? Interestingly, if you go over to the discussion board on the national NWTF site, there's a hot topic right now of folks wanting fall and winter seasons in North and South Carolina. The point is that turkey hunters want as much opportunity as possible, which makes us like every other hunter who has a particular favorite quarry, be it ducks, geese, grouse, rabbits, coons or deer. Anyway, the fall season's here, and we'll see how it impacts deer hunting. One thing's for sure--those who are griping about too many hens now have ten gun days to put one in the freezer, and a whole bunch of archery days to put two more in the pot. If you look at it year round, you can potentially kill five gobblers in Kentucky, and more than that if you can get on Knox and Campbell. Unless Texas added bonus birds in the fall, Kentucky is numero uno nationally. But let's get through this hatch, then get the biologists studying whether there is a significant difference if we allow an additional week or two birds in one day, or if we move the season back a week.

grouseguy

05-30-2003, 08:32 AM

KyHeadhunter,

I went back and did a quick check and found two threads that may give you the history of the issue. Look under Cyber-Hunters Public Forum on Page 5 for "Season Realignment-NWTF Stance", and in the Cyber-Hunters Members Only Forum on Page 5 for "Info from Jerry Napier of UBK".

As I remember it, there were numerous threads discussing this issue around that time, so if you look under probably any thread around that time with a lot of posts you'll find some reference to this deal.

Multidigits

05-30-2003, 08:38 AM

Pretty much what you se is what happened, except it did appear that the UBK had some prior knowledge of the "deal", because of the way and what was said following the switch-a-rooo on the dates. When they got changed, then they(Jerry) decided to back out of any prior agreements.
But this was obviously decided at the Commission level. i was there when Sky was rebuked and basicly told to sit down when he voiced his opinion on the changes made to the proposal. I think the Commission wanted to send a message that they have control and they are they only ones to make "deals".

I agree with Sky that this whole thing caused way too much controversy. Even if the Fall kill doubles, it won't make any difference in what we see in the following Spring. I'm looking forward to it.

Valley Station

05-30-2003, 09:30 AM

Who or representatives from which organization suggested/encouraged the KDFWR to create a 1-week October GUN turkey season??
KDFWR just come up with this scheme "out of the blue"??[}:)]
This has been like trying to find out who broke Grandmas cookie jar.
Ask all the kids, all you hear is "I don't know, I didn't do it".[8)]
If the gun harvest just doubles, no big deal. Yeah, there will be probably be (2500 or so) 7lb. jake poults removed from this seasons tom recruitment, that will never become gobblin' turkeys. What the hell, right?[V]What if there are 25,000 7lb. jake poults shot??
What if this fall gun hunt equals the spring harvest like it is in Missouri??
I have an ol' farm, that most of my neighbors are Ammish families.
Give them an a week gun season before Thanksgiving and it will have a devastating impact on the local turkey flock! [}:)]
Every one in their family that can tote a shotgun will be out to shoot a Thanksgiving dinner![}:)]
I'm sure, dumber decisions have been made. I just can't remember when! [V]

Multidigits

05-30-2003, 09:59 AM

Last year the harvest was 2,355 turkeys. 48% were males--with 459 of them being jakes. The total bag limit for both Fall seasons remains ONE bird.

You fellows remember what went down. The whole plan included a new gun deer season format and split season. The turkey season was mentioned before Thanksgiving. It got into Oct. by compromise I believe and the fact that the split gun season wasn't needed nor was it very popular with the commoners. That even caused the Dept. to change deer models and the excess deer herd numbers suddenly became a non-topic.

Ky Headhunter

05-30-2003, 11:08 AM

gg, thanks for the trip down memory lane.

Plenty of resentment toward NWTF & UBK leadership resulting from the deal/agreement/partnership/understanding/discussion, whatever you believe it to be. Seems to me it went underground for a period and is now bubbling back to the surface.

All of which makes me ask one question:
Why is it being dredged up for a thread concerning the daily limit during spring turkey season?

schuyler olt

05-30-2003, 11:08 AM

Valley, to the best of my knowledge, the idea started with George Wright, and wound its way around the Wildlife Division before becoming public. That should come as no surprise, as George has always advocated an October season as long as I can remember. When it started, and how long it bounced around, I can't tell you, because I don't have a clue. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't quite some time. Generally, birds of the year will not differ much if any in size between late October and early December. If they are a product of renesting, they will be smaller, agreed. Also, Missouri's fall harvest doesn't approach their spring numbers. They have 30,000 licensed hunters in the fall, which is less than the number of toms they kill in the spring. Tennessee has October hunting and about 15,000 licensed hunters, and their turkey population is growing faster than ours. So increased opportunity in the fall does not neccesarily translate to fewer gobblers in the spring.

grouseguy

05-30-2003, 11:21 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ky Headhunter
 All of which makes me ask one question:
Why is it being dredged up for a thread concerning the daily limit during spring turkey season?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Look to a post from me on the previous page where I challenged Sky about a comment he had made earlier in this thread.

Valley Station

05-30-2003, 12:50 PM

Tennessee has limited their fall gun harvest by limiting the number of hunters, by having a fall gun turkey quota only drawing and is limited to their high density only counties, not state wide.Their fall of 2002 harvest was aprox. 2500 birds.

schuyler olt

05-30-2003, 02:15 PM

I'll say this--if it had been my idea, I'd have taken responsibilty for it. I didn't really care where it came from, because it was out on the Commissioners' table when I learned about it, at which point the question was to implement it or not. Where it came from was already moot from my perspective. Shoot, I got the credit/blame for it anyway.[B)]This was never a "done deal" between the NWTF and UBK because there never was a deal. When I first learned of it, I still thought Walt was president of UBK, and I'm certain he would confirm that he and I have NEVER discussed an October gun season before the Wildlife Division raised it in the Committee meeting. I didn't meet Jerry Napier until that meeting was over--I'd never seen or heard of him in my life. As to us leaving out the hunter, the CyberHunter vote was 17-1. Our board voted 18-0. The difference is that every one of our board members was elected from our statewide membership AFTER they were nominated from their local chapters, so each of us had the legal and ethical right and responsibility to speak on behalf of our membership. Interestingly, out of 87 chapters, only one local chapter, and perhaps a second, formally opposed it, and both were from the 7th District. I hate to bring this back up, as much as I hated being the focus of a lot of venom back then, but I simply can't let Grouseguy's opinion of some grand conspiracy go unchallenged. I don't fault him one bit for being suspicious, but this time the opinion didn't have a basis in fact. I've got one month left as state pres, and I don't want anyone thinking I did something behind anybody's back. To the contrary, if you look back at the posts, it's pretty obvious that the guy disclosing everything first was me. For four years I've done the best I know how to do the right things the right way for the right reasons. Believe me, the suggestion that I did something sinister to the sportsmen in this state hurts every bit as badly now as it did then--maybe more. I really don't know what else to say.

grouseguy

05-30-2003, 03:05 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by schuyler olt
 I hate to bring this back up, as much as I hated being the focus of a lot of venom back then, but I simply can't let Grouseguy's opinion of some grand conspiracy go unchallenged. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sky, let me clear the air here a little. I'm sorry I brought back up the past debates on the fall turkey season. That was not my purpose. I am past that issue now. The October turkey season is a reality now and I hope you guys pound'm this fall, especially in NE KY, where we could use the help in reducing the competition from the "Big" birds. I still have my suspicions, but I've moved on to other issues.

My purpose in referring back to the fall turkey issue was to illustrate what I perceive to be an inconsistency in your position now on not wanting to see further season/reg changes for a while compared to your willingness and support, just a few months ago, for a change that you supported (expanded fall turkey seasons).

Again, I'm sorry for opening an old wound in trying to make a point of the current issue.

Ky Headhunter

05-30-2003, 03:07 PM

I re-read the entire thread, and still don't understand why any deal -whether it existed or not- concerning the October season, would influence anyone's position on the spring daily limit.

Even if I accepted the supposed deal as fact (and that it influenced the commission enough to get the fall season passed), why would that convince me to support changing the one bird per day spring limit? Changing that limit won't undo the new fall season. I still see two separate issues.

Ky Headhunter

05-30-2003, 03:24 PM

Looks like you beat me to the 'submit reply' button, gg! Guess my last post is now moot point[:0]

schuyler olt

05-30-2003, 03:46 PM

KyHead, I agree that the two are unrelated. The one bird/day reg was put in way back when to decrease mortality at a time when we didn't have many birds and we were still restocking. A few states that have multi bird limits, like Ohio, still have that same reg. (Ohio still shuts down at noon, also). Jim Lane, our state turkey biologist, and I have discussed the possibility of doing away with it, and Jim doesn't think the resource is quite there yet. Yet is the key word. The same holds true with adding a week to the season, which would unquestionably improve the hunting for most folks. Some folks would argue that we have enough birds today to allow it, but my personal belief is that it is better to be conservative--once you liberalize, it's very tough to go more restrictive, and more importantly, restocking ain't easy and we definitely don't want to go there if we can avoid it. And even though I've said that we need to leave things alone for a while, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking down the road to develop a strategy to implement changes that just about everyone seems to want when and if the time is right. IN THEORY, you could get these changes to the July committee and then to the August Commission meeting, which is when spring reg changes must be made if they are going to go in place in 2004. PRACTICALLY, I think you are probably in discussion/investigation mode until August 2004 at a minimum. The biologists would definitely oppose it this year, especially because of current weather conditions, and the Commissioners would not buck them, in all probability. The one proposed change I do see being raised this July is a Saturday opener. Our ballot asked for an opinion on Saturday, Monday or April 15th preference, and the polls close today, so we should know something soon. I suspect we'll have around 500 ballots, so that's a pretty big sample from people motivated to vote. I'm intrigued to see the results. In any event, it's not too soon to talk about the daily limit and season length, even though the change probably won't occur for at least two years.

turk2di

05-30-2003, 06:52 PM

Boy,all this is sure interesting.Speaking of Commissioners, why isn't their e-mail address made available to all licensed hunters or fisherman.I would love to e-mail them my opinions, heck, can't even come up with a phone #. As for a Saturday opener, Booooooooo!!!!!!!! Fills the woods with 2 many half-hearted hunters more interseted in ridin 4-wheelers than hunting. The over-whelming majority of hunters that WANT to be there on a monday opener FIND a way 2 b there. But once again, since George Wright left...............

what u get out, is what u put in

Feedman

05-30-2003, 08:20 PM

I believe that the population is large enough to sustain a longer season. I travel a 14 county area in south central Ky and I see lots of turkeys while I am working.
Remember back to the late 70's and early 80's what the deer population was in KY. The KDFWR did a wonderful job in managing the herd for growth and quality animals. We still have a 10 day season in a large part of the state and 16 days in the rest of the state. Look at the deer herd numbers and how large they are in some areas. Would a longer season 10 years ago slowed the growth of the herd?? Why is the season still just 10 to 16 days if we have too many deer in lots of counties.
Are they looking to manage the turkey population like they did the deer. Don't get me wrong, I think that they did a good job with the deer herd. I just thought that we need longer seasons several years ago.

Boss Gobbler

05-31-2003, 06:08 PM

I still dont understand. You get two tags why does it matter if you fill them in one day or ten days apart. If the population cant handle it and all this stuff why do we get two tags? I think the season is plenty long. More than likely if you cant get it done in three weeks one more wont help.

turk2di

05-31-2003, 09:32 PM

I read all the time here and on other message boards that the kill isn't the main reason for hunting turkeys. That it's the enjoyment of being in the woods, the grand outdoors. Now we have hunters wondering why they can't end it all at once should the opportunity arise. To me, wanting to kill two gobblers a day comes off as selfish. It would be a masacre. If you have hunted for every many years, you have had numerous situations in which more than one tom has come in. Bang-bang!!! Two dead birds and a lost opportunity for someone else later that day or the next.

what u get out, is what u put in

Big58cal

05-31-2003, 10:45 PM

Hey turk, I believe that there are several factors going into the reason that people are asking for this change. 1) The possibility of accidently shooting 2 birds with 1 shot. Instead of being "criminals", they would then be legal; 2) People wanting to get their turkeys and get back with their "normal" lives. I think all of us have been guilty of this at one point or another, and not just with turkeys; 3) The opportunity of just BEING in the woods. If a person shoots a turkey 10 minutes after daylight, they're done for the rest of the day hunting. This change would allow those people to be out in the woods with their guns (stroking them, looking at them, feeling them......this is the gun that I'm talking about!!!!!) and enjoying the experience. Whether they get a turkey or not doesn't really matter. They're getting to spend more time in the woods "hunting".

Now before anyone says that "you could take someone else with you and let them shoot", please bear in mind that there may be restrictions to this. For example, the place that I hunt is loaded with turkeys. Only problem is that the landowner won't allow anyone else to hunt other than me and my brother. I can't take anyone up there. I would be willing to do some calling for someone, but don't know of anyone (kids included), that could use a caller.

Does this answer some questions?

"Nature's Law Of Tooth And Claw Is Far Crueler Than Any Death I Could Ever Impose" - Fred Bear

turk2di

06-01-2003, 09:08 AM

Thanks for responding. I can see this is a thread that could go on and on. Don't ya just love it? Well, here's my take on your listed reasons for baggin two/day, or at once.

1.We hunters are entrusted with responsibility of identifing proper gender when shooting turkeys in the spring. It is also our DUTY to make sure that our shot takes out only the bird for which it is intended,( even if it means passin up the shot, of which many hunters do). While i realize that as humans, we ocassionally make a mistake, i believe those mistakes are so far in the minority that it isn't justification for jeopardizing the overall numbers of male birds or the immediate reduced opportunities that are now spread out as the laws now produce. Tho i would by no means brand a hunter a criminal for an ACCIDENTAL two killing, i just wonder how many of these incidents are caused by inner pressure to kill.
2.Speakin only for me, but i have never felt the need to kill quickly in order to resume a NORMAL life. To me, hunting is my normal life.Im not saying that i spend more time hunting than anything else in life, just that when i do, i feel im where i should be. So pardon me, i don't know quite to say to #2.
3. Again, tuff to tackle this in a way that i haven't already stated in earlier replys. In my view, one a day is plenty. Killin two a day robs someone else a opportunity that day. Take your huntin spot for example: you and your brother sittin there and up comes 4 Toms and two jakes, bang!bang!! pop!!! pop!!!!, whopps there goes #4 lookin like he could get away, double bang!!!!! Down he goes and i believe we may have hit yet another one!!!!! Now your immediately down 4 gobblers, perhaps a crippled jake or two in the excitement of the showdown. Sound's farfetched? With a change to 2birds/day, it will sound like dove hunting, sort of.
In closing, i will fight any changes in the current regs tooth-n-nail.
No 2birds/day. No moving the season one way or the other. No lengthening of the seaon. Perhaps it would be a good time to rehash George Wright's gobbler mortality study.!!!!!!!!

what u get out, is what u put in

Boss Gobbler

06-01-2003, 06:44 PM

Turk I hunt my own land and feel that I can manage it within the law however I want. I dont care if my neighbors ever get a turkey, I dont put in the hard work and scouting for them to benifit. I two feel if I wanted I could bring in ten guys and have them all fill thier tags. I manage my land for maximium use to me.You can call that selfish if you what but it is my time and hard earned money that goes in it. I get two tags and I fill both of them legally. If you are worried about taking an oppertunity away from others you want me out of the woods as soon as possible. In these days people are very limited to free time, I work in constuction and have to put in long hours in the spring. I agree 100% with Big. As far as shooting more than 2 birds unethical hunters will more than likely disobey the law no matter what it is. The reason I put a lot of time and money in it is to harvest something, so you could say that the kill is the main part. I think most people would agree. I could sit in the woods for free.

There is a fine line between hunting and sitting there looking stupid.

turk2di

06-01-2003, 07:17 PM

I hunt exclusively public ground.Perhaps i need to state that when replying to this topic. If they want to allow landowners to kill however many turkeys or deer they can, so be it. But we are all part landowners of public ground and i sincerely hope that rigorous(?) studies are conducted b4 it is allowed on WMA'S. I occasionally post on a website in georgia and maybe it would b a good time to post a thread over there and ask for some input on the matter. For those unaware, u can kill your three bird limit there in a day if u wish. Anyway, i am against it, alway's will b. I respect everyone's opinion and perhaps it will come to pass that im the odd-ball out. Hope i haven't peoed anyone, im really passionate about our turkeys and i know how much work and time and money people have put into makin turkey hunting as good as it is here. Right now, we are workin on a bad hatch, perhaps the second in a row. we need 2 b carefull.

what u get out, is what u put in

Boss Gobbler

06-01-2003, 07:38 PM

I agree public land should be left the same,because of hunting pressure. I can understand how someone can be passionate about turkey hunting. I put every effort and a lot of thought into the management of my land. I watch the flock and scout thourghly and then decide if several birds or just a couple need to be harvested, and inform my hunting partners of this. I dont think we should wipe out the flock. I do think that a 2 bird/day would be few and far between. I just cant see how this would hurt the population. Nice discussion turk