Clover!

[P. Beyer]

Posted by Larry Carter:

Don't know how basic or advanced to reply. Don't be offended if I sound too simple. Round up kills most vegetation by contact and being absorbed into the roots. No residue in the soil to kill germinating seeds. Couldn't be sure if it'd work for ALL the kinds of clover but to establish white or red, it will. A bit late for a good stand this year but if you're working with sod areas a fall spraying works better anyway. Air temp needs to be above 60 and it should have a chance to dry thoughorly before a rain. WILL NOT work on dust covered folage [like along a gravel road] Most areas of Ky need lime for best production and some 0-20-20 fertilizer would be great too. Maybe we should continue this down in habitat improvement
__________________________________________________ ____________________

[:D]Thanks! First don't worry about being to basic as I'm new to this. We have a small farm in Western Ky. In the middle of the hardwoods there is an overgrown field. In the middle of this it opens up nicely for about 3/4 of an acre. This spot is just grassy, nothing more. However tractor access is impossible due to the thick overgrowth surrounding this area & several creeks. The spot is ideal deer habitat, containing lots of cover. Basically we just want to add some good stuff and nutrients to attract & hold deer in the area. My buddy bought some of that Whitetail institute clover stuff, it was rather expensive for clover. If you listen to their accounts, this stuff is the <i>be all end all </i>of clover. The dillema is: No access & lack of tools to do the job. Keep in mind neither of us is scared to work hard to do it, we just lack the $$$$ to get the tools. Thanks ahead for your help!

P. Beyer

"It makes no difference whether I got anything; it has to do with how the day was spent"

Fred Bear

[rlb165]

P., I don't know if this is the best way or not, but here is what I would try with your situation.

Spray the 3/4 acre with Roundup.(2 1/2 gallons costs about $130 at Southern States. A little goes a long way. This is much more concentrated than what you buy at Dept. stores. However, if this is the only area you're gonna need it for, you may want to do the math and see which is cheaper for you in the long run.

Go back to the area about 10~12 days after you spray. Most of the grass should look yellowed. Re-spray the green spots that you somehow missed. Blame these green spots on your friend, and make him buy you beer to pay for his incompetence.

Seeding: Option 1: Broadcast at about 1 1/2 to 2 times the recommended seeding rate. You can buy a couple of pounds of Ladino
clover at Southern States if needed.

Option 2: Rent a "Power Seeder" from a rental store. It looks like a push mower, with a hopper on the back to hold the seed. It slices the ground and deposits the seed at the depth you set. (Note: Clover only needs good seed-soil contact to germinate. An 1/8 inch or so would be plenty.

Lime and fertilize as soil tests indicate, or tell the guy at the farm supply place that you need a fertilizer with little or no Nitrogen. I usually get 5-20-20 or 6-24-24, depending on what the store I'm at carries. Without a soil test, I would guess 100 pounds of fertilizer would be ok. This probably doesn't make any difference, but I like to apply 1/2 the fertilizer at planting, then the other 1/2 after the clover is up and thick enough to look like green carpet.

Lime is kinda a pain in the butt in areas that are hard to get to. It may take several bags.

You'll probably have problems with competition from grass and weeds. For the weeds, mowing or weed-eating to keep the weeds from making seeds is about the best you can do. (As far as I know.) Besides, some 'weeds' benefit wildlife. You just don't want them to take over.

For grass, there are herbicides that kill grass but don't hurt broadleaf plants (like clover). The only one I've used is called Fusilade 2000. There is also one called Poast, but I haven't tried it.

Whew! That's all there is to it. Good luck.

[Multidigits]

Mostly good advice from RLB, but I'd spray it twice before throwing out high priced seed. Spray one time to kill everything, and check it like RLB said a couple of weeks later. You can do this anytime now, but you should have done it last fall(for spring planting). Then you'll want to go back and re-spray everything that re-germinates after the first kill. There's seed laying dormant in the ground waiting on a chance to sprout and this will come up after you made your first kill. Spray at least 30 days apart to make sure.

I still wouldn't expect good success without working the soil, but it might. BUT, the seed has to be in contact with the soil or lightly covered to germinate. If it's laying on top the dead grass or weeds, it won't grow. If it's not covered, it'll likely end up as bird or turkey crap sometime before it's clover.

No matter if you work the soil or not, you'll need the same amount of lime and fertilizer. Ferilizer can be applied easily by hand with a spreader. Buy a bag type seed sower at the Co-op. Get a good one($20-$25) and it'll last foreever. You can spread pellitized lime with it also. Wash it out when you done and let it dry.

Dutch white clover requires a little less lime than does ladino. Both are white clover and preferred over red clover by most deer. Turkeys will eat either. You can seed clover in the Fall from about Sept. 1 on to about Oct. 15 or so depending on the season. Or in the Spring, up to about the first of May., again depending on the season.

As RLb says, you'll have to maintain it by mowing or burning or redo it every 2 or 3 years. Weeds will take over and root the clover out.

If I were you, and thinking about food plots, I'd be looking for a deal ona tractor and equipment. You'll really be a lot better off in the long run. Very small places can be done by ATVs and rototillers but it's really not as good.

[Larry Carter]

One of the great things about a forum like this is exposure to different experiences. I like a lot of the advice you've been given but will add a few observations from my own experiences. From your description mowing the site would be difficult to impossible. A controlled burn every few years would be nice but doesn't always fit in folks work schedules,juggling wind and moisture conditions. Another option if you use white dutch clover is a walk through spraying with round up every few years. White dutch reseeds so well killing back the weedy growth in the spring will not reduce your stand. I don't have a good idea on liming the spot. Checking locally bag lime runs from $2 to $4.50 for a fifty pound bag. Putting a ton on your patch will get kind of expensive and labor intensive. From your other posts I think you have a four wheeler so you might check on getting a load of limed dumped and then haul it in with a small trailer. If you think that might work I can give you a link to a spreader board deal you add to the trailer fairly easily. Another thing to ponder. You said the site is surrounded with hardwoods. I've found on my property cutting lanes into an opening increases deer and turkey traffic. You likely have quite a few trees that furnish little or no wildlife food than will benefit your timber by their removal. Cottonwoods and red maples come to mind quickly as prime candidates for nice brushpiles. Half lapping some trees will benefit quail and turkeys and not hurt the rabbits either. The extra light on the floor of the woods will diversify the food supply and maybe even increase the acorn crop.

[Larry Carter]

Left out ask for 0-20-20 fertilizer. The nitrogen will just feed more weeds.

[Larry Carter]

and if you have some brushy areas in the grass some 2-4-D added to the round up will give a better kill. That's for site preparation spraying not the rejuvenating.

[P. Beyer]

[:)] Thanks for all the advice guys! I'm still not sure which avenue we'll take for this year. I've got a 4-wheeler and access to a trailer for it, so hauling the lime isn't going to be too big of an obstacle. We'd already been working on reduction of some trees and opening the canopy a wee bit. I appreciate all this advice & by all means keep it coming!

P. Beyer

"It makes no difference whether I got anything; it has to do with how the day was spent"

Fred Bear

[Larry Carter]

Another route to consider for this year is spray the round up,lime what you can and spread a few hundred pounds of triple 19 fertilizer with no seeding at all. Lots of the weeds that will sprout make fine turkey,deer, rabbit and quail food. Then if you want you can hit the grass again in late summer with more round up and overseed with clover[IF we have some late summer moisture!]. Worked on more openings and helped put out some plum thickets myself today.

[GSP]

Don't forget FIRE! A good way to clear land and germinate native plants.

[Multidigits]

Burning by untrained people really need to be taken very seriously. I've seen burns by the Dept. and TNC and the precautions they take and it's a lot of work to do it right. Even then things can go wrong. Be sure to alert the local fire district and others to what your doing. You can be held liable for a large chunk of money if something happens.

[RTC]

Be careful, like Larry Carter says, "A little goes a long way",Too much Roundup will just burn the plant and not kill the roots and they will just grow right back. 2 quarts to the acre is plenty. Once sprayed, wait a couple of weeks and spray again with 1 quart to the acre if "greenup" occurs, then wait a couple of weeks and start planting. It is getting late in the year to do this with clover.

[rlb165]

Here is a link to an article about food plots. I've only skimmed thru it, haven't read the whole thing.

http://members.tripod.com/~mmbqdm/articles/foodplots.htm

[Larry Carter]

I read it all. Only cautions are birdsfoot trefoil is hard to maintain in Ky with our humid summers. The adapted variety,Fergus, is pretty expensive and trefoil is hard to establish here. I'd also shy away from any sweet clover with concerns about palatability and coumarin toxicity.Planting dates will be quite different from the Michigan ones sited.

[P. Beyer]

[:)]I have a small spot out now, I planted it a few weeks ago with a buddy & 2 garden rakes! Size is 20 yards by 12 yards... It's coming up nicely! Hopefully within a week I'll get a couple more out, If not I'll wait till fall planting time.

"It makes no difference whether I got anything; it has to do with how the day was spent"

Fred Bear