Who is pushing this issue againts farmers?

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Quote:
Tell us Skipper, why did you tell 9th fair chase hunter that elk guy representative for RMEF had the petition to put high fence farmers out of business?

9th fair chase why did you ask elk guy representative for RMEF for the petition to put high fence farmers out of business
There is nothing wrong in taking a stand on what you believe but to hide behind someone else’s shirt to do their dirty work is pitiful.

Your misstatement and lies are as clear as your intent and it will not fool the folks that value private property rights, individual rights and are trying to save our hunting heritage as we now it in modern times.

[elkguy]

Lou,

I don't think that Skipper or 9th fch are lying. I just think they had a miscommunication. Now, for the record, I have not spoken with or e-mialed 9th FCH any information about anything. I saw him at the 9th district meeting several weeks ago, but that was it. I have spoken with Skip a couple of times, but not about anything really serious.

As I am sure you know, we sent a letter to the Gov last January regarding the elk and deer farming issue. It basically supported our RMEF position statement. I THINK this is the document that 9th FCH got confused with a petition, although I may be wrong. There is no RMEF petition. We have not done anything since the letter was sent to the Gov in January.

Over the past several weeks, I have learned of more than one effort to address the high-fence shooting, and deer and elk farming. We are not involved in any of those. These efforts are being made and promoted by people that do not agree with canned hunting, or private ownership of elk or deer, and are very worried about CWD risks.

Right now we are not involved in any of it. We did our letter last January.

[Skipper]

I have spoken with Skip a couple of times, but not about anything really serious.


And here I thought you were serious when you told the that the Foundation had contracted with Rambo, James Bond, and the Dirty Dozen to fly Black Helicopters over deer farms and take pictures from high altitudes while dropping out bags of mothballs with peed off rattlesnakes in them. :D Did you select the chick to drive into the deer camp for a distraction from those pictures you took at Nibroc?

Skipper

[elkguy]

Those NIBROC photos are going to the Smithsonian to be displayed in the exhibit on primitive cultures.

[9th Fair Chase Hunter]

Or Lou What ever your name is.

I think what is wrong with this whole situation is a Few Pro (Game Keepers) Farmers like yourself , Taxi Mike, and one or two more feel that the whole world is out to get you, and because of this paranoia you feel that you must lash out at people who are just trying to do what they think is best.
We at the 9th District are not working for RMEF or the CIA or anyone else I was told when we first started to discuss the idea of a petition that elk guy had something already writen up, turns out I was miss informed. We still do not know what we (9th District Federation) are going to do if anything. However If we decide to send out a petition or a letter or what ever it will not be for any reason than the fact we all want to protect our sport and support the KDFWR.
Now I know that you think that personal attacks and making the fight about RMEF or anything other than that will somehow help, but I do not find it productive and it is why sights like this seldom help get any thing resolved.
I have respect for those Farmers who have attended or meetings because they took the time to come and sit and talk things over with us and did not start name calling or acting like children. I may not agree with everything they say but I do respect a man who is willing to try to win people over to his side.

[Taxi Mike]

Buckheaven:

It's easy to believe that Skipper and 9th were confused! They seem to have a little trouble discerning fact from what ever seems to pop into their heads.

SO.....

Once again fella's Please... don't put words in my mouth and please... go back and reread the "facts"...

I am not a cervid farmer, and never said I was.

It is generally prudent to ask questions, and stick to the facts if you want promote a valid, well informed agenda!

[Skipper]

Those NIBROC photos are going to the Smithsonian to be displayed in the exhibit on primitive cultures.

Is it a primitive culture or just plain wrong when a chick with lowrider jeans, a thong, belly button ring, and dunlap's disease wears a half top?

Skipper

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Skip, 9th fc just answer the question why you asked RMEF for the petition?

Is the question to hard for you?

[Skipper]

Go back to sleep Lou if you aren't going to read the 2 answers you already have been given to that question.

Skipper

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Skipper,

If you told 9th fc to get the petition from RMEF than you must have thought they had one prepared. What is so difficult about that?

There is no need to be rude or to make a big thing out of this. Did you tell him or not.

[Skipper]

Elk Guy said:

Lou,

I don't think that Skipper or 9th fch are lying. I just think they had a miscommunication. Now, for the record, I have not spoken with or e-mialed 9th FCH any information about anything. I saw him at the 9th district meeting several weeks ago, but that was it. I have spoken with Skip a couple of times, but not about anything really serious.

As I am sure you know, we sent a letter to the Gov last January regarding the elk and deer farming issue. It basically supported our RMEF position statement. I THINK this is the document that 9th FCH got confused with a petition, although I may be wrong. There is no RMEF petition. We have not done anything since the letter was sent to the Gov in January.

Over the past several weeks, I have learned of more than one effort to address the high-fence shooting, and deer and elk farming. We are not involved in any of those. These efforts are being made and promoted by people that do not agree with canned hunting, or private ownership of elk or deer, and are very worried about CWD risks.

Right now we are not involved in any of it. We did our letter last January.


9th Fair Chase Hunter Said

We at the 9th District are not working for RMEF or the CIA or anyone else I was told when we first started to discuss the idea of a petition that elk guy had something already writen up, turns out I was miss informed.

Elkguy Said

Buckheaven,

I have stated on here before that the RMEF is not, nor will we be, circulating a petition regarding deer and elk farming. Please stop trying to insult us and trying to pull us into this fight. We are focused on habitat conservation and hunter opportunity. I do not have a lot of time to deal with your issues. I am working with state and federal agencies, land companies, mining companies, etc etc to conserve habitat and expand hunting opportunities.

You keep mentioning the RMEF position statement on game farming. It is 11 years old and was written in 1994.


Elkguy Said

No petition here. We wrote a letter a year ago regarding the executive order. Skipper has a copy of that, but we have never circulated a petition, and do not intend to do so.


If I must say is for you, here it is.

The RMEF sent out a letter early this year regarding the issue. I told 9th Fair Chase that they had sent out the letter and it would make a start toward our petition. 9th Fair Chase thought I said that the RMEF had a petition. I guess he was confused after listening to 3 hours of deer farming interruption of our meeting. I later explained to 9th Fair Chase that it was a letter not a petition, and that it would make a good base toward our petition.

End of story. Now pay attention.

Skipper

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Skipper,

Lets see 9th fc says he was misinformed when he was told the elk guy had a petition to put cervid farmers out of business.


Elk guy says he has nothing to do with it but he reminds us that RMEF policy statement against cervid farming is only 14 years old.


Skipper says that poor old 9th fc misunderstood because of a bunch of disruptive LKS members (deer farmers) took up so much of his time.



I m listening Skipper you are coming in loud and clear.

[Skipper]

Lou,

You can throw up a bigger smoke screen than a 1978 Gremlin with bad rings. Have black helicopters been circling your place?

Skipper

[9th Fair Chase Hunter]

Taxi it is easy to see you are a great one to talk about reading and getting facts straight, if you had read my post I call you PRO- Cevid Farmer, not a Farmer.

[9th Fair Chase Hunter]

Lou I am Poor and according to my girlfriend I am old so I have no problem with that charactorization, as for being confused because of the LKS members (Farmers) I think Dazed would be a better word. Three hours plus of going around in circles and getting nowhere does that to me sometimes.

I will starting at the next Federation Meeting have a tape recorder so that I can record everything for my own records that way I won't make the same mistakes again.

[Skipper]

I wish you'd have thought about that tape thing 3 meetings ago, that way we'd have 8 or 10 hours of these guys crossing themselves up in their own voices. Like the "We don't believe in calling what we do hunting." Then "We use hunting in our brochures because it markets to our clients better." The "We don't sell hunts on our place." Then, "Just last year an executive from the Ford Plant called me wantiing to shoot a buck so he'd have a trophy for his office so I put him in contact with another cervid farmer who had the deer he wanted."

Skipper

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Skipper,

The LKS members that attended the 9th district meeting tell me that you are putting a hell of a spin on what they said, I hope you are ready to back it up. Brook will be requesting that you clarify some of your statements that you said about his facility and about the LKS members attending the meeting.

[spurs]

Buckheaven:

Don't know what members you discussed this with, but i attended the last meeting. Don't remember which meeting it was but, the suggestion was made not to call it hunting (reference to canned hunts,not high fence) MR. Ping agreed and stated lets see what else we can call it. All agreed that this is not hunting. Then a statement was made,( in reference to a farmer saying no-one can tell them what they can do with their own property), that the farmer could slaughter their deer however they needed and sell that deer to the wouldbe buyer. Then the statement was made that they (the farmer) could not sell their deer that way.

[Skipper]

Do you mean the captive cervid operators mascarading as members of the sportsman's organization so that we can't get any other business done? We plan on stopping that business at the next meeting. Hopefully 9th FC has that tape gosheen warmed up in time for the next meeting. The word is unless he and his cohorts are a member of a member club approved by the voting members of the federation, it won't last long. It ought to be interesting, fact is, why don't you visit with us. The meeting is the 8th at 7 pm at the Salem tool building.

Skipper

[String Music]

I would hope that no Federation turns away an LKS member from one of their meetings?????? Surely this is going to bring notice to the LKS leadership and be taken care of before hand? :cool:

[Skipper]

In any of the Federations, only member clubs have voting priviledges a prescribed in the by laws. We haven't turned members away from the meetings yet, but the fact is, having to sit and listen to this group tell us what we are going to believe and do is getting a bit old, and we aren't getting the opportunity to do what it is that the 9th Federation is supposed to be doing, and that is working for the sportsmen in this district. Brook and his crew are individual members of the Federation and not a member club of the federation so they do not have voting priviledges. What we have decided to do is allot "Open Discussion Time" of 1 hour. After that time, only voting members may remain at the meeting so that our time is not monopolized by this or any other opposition group that may show up in the future.

The fact is, the League and it's 9 Federations are supposed to be a voice for sportsmen not Captive Cervid operators, not Kentucky Heartwood, not PETA, and not any other opposition group to sportsmen who wish to join the League. That is why each Federation has a process where clubs must apply for membership status in the Federation and be voted in by the voting delegates from the other member clubs. Elsewise everytime a Federation or the League got involved in something contriversial this sort of thing would happen and the sportsmen would be SOL in their own organization. From the League's perspective, it could have 200 PETA members join tomorrow or 200 Kentucky Heartwood members join. However, unless their club is admitted to one of the Federations by the voting members, they are simply individual members.

Skipper

[String Music]

I might be wrong, but I don't believe any of the By-laws are in place to create a secret society inside the umbrella of the LKS. IMO, you might want to check with the Board before you act???

[Skipper]

The 9th Federation officers are in agreement on this procedure, and I believe that's all the approval we need. The 9th Federation is not a servant of the League Board and doesn't have to ask the League Board how to conduct it's meetings. The 9th's Leadership has the authority to set the agendas for it's meetings including allotting time frames for each issue we are dealing with and time frames for those non affiliated members to address the board.

The member clubs elect or appoint their voting delegates base on their club's proceedures. Those voting delegates elect the officers in the 9th. If they want new officers next year, I know 9th FC Ernie and I would be willing to step aside. The 3 of us are there to work for sportsmen, and all 3 of us are in agreement on our opinion of the Captive Cervid business. If the 9th wants to become a puppet for Lou and the Captive Cervid folks, then they have absolutely no use for the 3 of us.

Skipper

[9th Fair Chase Hunter]

:D Skipper You mean That we might have to give up all the fun and glamour and prestige and Not to mention the big salary and Not get to have anymore 4hour meetings were nothing gets done. Say it aint so. Your wife and My girlfriend would be so upset.:eek:
Wonder if they might be behind all this trouble?

[Skipper]

Do you recogn those 2 are having secret society meetings at Wal Mart or some such place just before the meeting to cause trouble? :(

Skipper

[Taxi Mike]

9th guys:

You probably can throw our members and you probably can not admit members or clubs.

But I'd be very thourough on checking your bylaws, and going back through all of the previous meetings minutes and making sure you followed those bylaws explicitly.

If you have failed to follow those rules in past circumstances you may fnd yourself forced by a court to continue to make ecceptions under the same criteria.

Also if you have failed to follow the rules of incororation and the bylaws you could actually have your incorportation disloved by the state or face fines, penalties and tax liabilities.

Such things are expensive and damaging.

[schuyler olt]

Mike,

With all due respect, not following your bylaws, in and of itself, will not cause dissolution of the corporation, fines, penalties, etc.

Depending upon the action taken in violation of the by-laws, it could render the action null and void, if you want to spend the bucks to go to court.

[Taxi Mike]

I'll defer to the more qualified legal mind but do know that several AR and anti orgs have recently been severely inconvenienced by some diligent detractors on these same issues.

Not for profit status was revoked on one, another was found to have acted negligent and outside the parameters of their incorporation to the point that the org actually was dissolved. Whether this was an action by the state or the individuals I do not know.

I personally found it very rewarding to see our real enemies fall due to their over zealous passion and the mob mentality that sometimes sets in at meetings when the majority get on a roll.

I would not want to see any of our own fall into the same patterns.

[Skipper]

They could sue the 9th District and take every dime it's got, and by the time they paid the lawyer the ran their case, they'd not have enough left to buy a 6 pack at Krystal. :p

An organization such as the 9th Federation who's purpose is to promote specifice ideologies such as Fair Chase Hunting would not be worth 2 hoots if it were forced to allow opposition members to join and dictate a complete opposite agenda than the one under which it was originally formed. It would be like forcing the Southern Baptist churches to accept the premise that the Supreme Court thinks it's illegal to display a nativity scene at Christmas. If at every deacon's meeting, state meeting and national meeting people opposed to displaying Nativity scenes showed up with the express purpose of stopping the Church from supporting it, eventually the original members would get tired of it and do 1 or 2 things. 1. Stop the intruders from interfering with the organization's business or 2. Form another organization with the same goal as the original, but not open that organization's goal to membership from opposition groups. Has anyone ever wondered why we have 150 churches in every county in Kentucky? Not everyone is going to agree on everything, but people have the right to organize and work toward a common goal based on their individual beliefs. The PETA folks do not have to accept me as a member (I don't want to be anyway), I don't believe the Boy Scouts are obligated to accept girls, and I sure don't believe that the 9th Federation is obligated to grant membership and voting priviledges to a group that is not sharing the common goal that the group of sportsmen have.

You know the funny thing about all of this. The 9th Federation is the smallest Federation in the League of Kentucky Sportsmen. There are much much bigger fish than us. We have about 250 members. A couple of the federations have in excess of 2500 members. I've wondered a time or 2 how in the world our little organization managed to seemingly captivate 100% of the attention on this matter. Surely we aren't the only Federation working on this issue.

Skipper

[Taxi Mike]

The 9th Federation is the smallest Federation in the League of Kentucky Sportsmen. There are much much bigger fish than us. We have about 250 members. A couple of the federations have in excess of 2500 members. I've wondered a time or 2 how in the world our little organization managed to seemingly captivate 100% of the attention on this matter. Surely we aren't the only Federation working on this issue.


"Most of the time there are reasons why folks leave or don't join organizations"

[Skipper]

As far as I know, there was no 9th Federation 2 years ago. You would be surprised at how much the federation has grown in 2 years time, paticularly since we finally got organized in Febuary this year.

Skipper

[grouseguy]

Mike,

I think you are "spot on" with your analysis. This is just an issue that most sportsmen care little about because it doesn't directly affect them, and many will actively avoid a conflict where they don't have a stake.

I brought up this exact issue at the 8th District's Federation meeting in July to gauge the sportsmen's response in my district so that I could better represent their interests, and the general response was this isn't an issue that they were particularly interested in. Some spoke for and some spoke against, but there was little, if any, passion in either position, and the vast majority didn't care to even respond.

I understand Skipper and 9th FCH's frustration...in the past, I've spoken out on issues that were very important to me and a few others, but we just couldn't find the level of necessary support to affect the desired change that we sought. It is very frustrating to feel in your heart that you are right in your position, but are unable to energize others sufficiently to bring about what you seek. As I've gained experience in this process, although its often difficult to swallow, I've learned to "keep my powder dry" and pick my battles more wisely.

[String Music]

Here's the problem as far as I cna tell. It's not that people don't want to help out the cause on this matter, it's that you haven't allowed them too. When you went into this mess, you were asked to make damn sure you know the parameters of what can be a canned hunt and where they can happen. With what you've outlined for us to support, you difinitions are way too broad. Just outlawing a fence installation is far short of what is needed and will certainly backfire on most of us hunters. Canned hunts don't have to be staged inside of a fence. Wild boar(penned raised) hunts in Tn. would be an example, as would tons of other type of hunts other than on cervids. Far as I can see, this thing needs to be tabled, we need to make sure that Lou doesn't gain anymore ground, and then a task force of those involved need to address the issues....and there are plenty of them. When that happens, you can expect more support, and probably a position statement from the LKS.

[Skipper]

Mark,

With all due respect. We all know that you represent Lou Ortega's district. We all know and have known for some time that You, Taxi Mike aka Mike Ohlman are both supporters of the Cervid industry.

I think you and your cervid ranching buddies would be making a big mistake to think for a minute that sportsmen throughout this state and for that matter all over the world are not becoming more and more aware of this problem. You would also be mistaken in believing that sportsmen aren't concerned for the future of hunting because of stunts such as this. I am not sure where you were at the convention in Paducah when the rest of us were at the policy development session in which the represented clubs overwhelmingly voted to put regulations into effect in Kentucky that would control people who wish to raise living rifle targets. While no hunter has a qualm with shooting an animal, it is a whole other matter to prop a doped animal up against a tree so that someone pretending to hunt can say "I've killed the biggest deer ever." It's a whole other thing when you place a deer in a fence the size of my back yard and someone shoots it with a bow then goes to tittering and laughing about what a feat he has accomplished. You can say whatever you want to say about it, that Bellar Video is about as convincing of a thing as any film that has ever been produced.

The facts are this. In Kentucky, the things that went on in the Bellar Video are currently legal. The League membership has voted at it's convention to put a stop to those activites. As we have found out in working toward that end, it is not possible to stop these sorts of activities so long as the Cervid people are hiding under the bossom of Maw Agriculture. The first step in this process is to put the cervid farms back under the regulation of the KDFWR, and really I could care less if that's what the cervid people want or not. I don't know of any business that gets to choose which governmental agency regulates it.

In the 9th District, we took a defunct organization that hadn't functioned in several years and are working on putting it back together. Unfortunately, our activities in this cervid matter have managed to take up all of our meeting time and that has slowed us on other business including growing the Federation. That said, I am well satisfied with the public support we are getting with our efforts. We have DU chapter people backing us, NWTF people backing us, RMEF people backing us (don't that just chap your behind), Quail Clubs backing us and many others. Further, we have support from Farm Bureau members, at least 1 KALA member, and many others. Don't think for a minute that this is going away, and certainly don't think for a minute that sportsmen or anyone else with knowledge on the subject is going to stand for these kinds of activities to continue unregulated in the State of Kentucky.

Neither 9th Fair Chase, I, or the other officers in this district are politicians. We don't intend to quit on an objective that the people who look to us as leaders in their district have said they want stopped. We aren't the kind of people who are going to let money and political pandering cause us to change our minds and compromise on what we believe is right. That is what our politicians do in Frankfort, City Hall, and the County Courthouse, and it's pretty obvious that respect for them has followed right along with their failure to keep their word when it comes to doing what is right and what their people asked them to do.

It is your right and Mike's right to belive as you do, but when it comes to the League, the membership was clear on the subject of cervid farming in Kentucky. They want the league to do 2 things, and that is see to it that hunting or whatever they want to call it on these farms is regulated in a manner that demonstrates Fair Chase, and they do not want cervids to be imported into the state of Kentucky in order to protect our wildlife and livestock from disease risks associated with bringing in more animals from out of state. If the league leadership wants to waffle on those requests the membership has made and not work to see to it that those regulations become law in this state, then the League has a serious credibility problem, and can look for the membership to let the Leadership know that they aren't happy with what is going on.

As I said earlier, if the membership in the 9th District doesn't want to support us in this manner and decides to vote us out at the next election, we'll gladly turn it over to them and let them run it as they see fit, but until then, they can count on me to work toward the goal of making the resolutions the League made at it's policy development session the law of the land.

Skip Walden
Corbin, KY

PS: I'm ready the call from Dale Weddle and Ronnie Wells that tells me I need to be more diplomatic or something like that.

[daking]

Ah, where to begin....

The situation in the ninth appears, from an outside observer, to be a case of a group trying to pack the district's membership in order to further their one special agenda. Here in the Third, the UBK has coalesced a group to oppose a crossbow season. They recently held a putsch (called by some a meeting) in which they rewrote the rules and consolidated their power into the hands of the anti-crossbow crowd. They now claim to speak for third district sportsmen when they oppose an expanded crossbow season, when the recently released survey on the issue indicates that 59% of the hunters and landowners in the Third District favor an expanded season. Clearly, the regeim of the Third District that purports to speak for the sportsmen of their district are giving voice to a message that is not what the majority thinks. One wonders if this might be the case with the high fence hunters in the ninth.

The ongoing viability of hunting is predicated on the recruitment and retention of hunters. In the case of both high fence hunting and opposition of the crossbow season, the will of the average Kentucky hunter is being ignored. In the case of high fence hunting, I would venture to say that the average Kentucky hunter feels that it is a contrived situation for catering to people who want to hang a trophy deer on the wall without (as Tred Barta puts it) without doing the work. They also recognize the potential for disease and other problems. In the case of crossbows, they clearly want an expanded season. When you disenfranchise the average hunter by doing things that a sizeable majority see as against their best hunting interest, they will ultimately stop hunting, in favor of an activity in which their interests are respected. When these folks are lost to the sport, they provide no recruitment or mentoring of the next generation. That generation loses its connection to and its respect for hunting. There will be no cadre of people who support the sport, leaving it vunerable to attack on all sides. Don't believe me? Look at Europe. Hunting there is for the priveliged classes. It's also under constant attack by the young Greens who have no connection to the blood sports.

In short, both of these ideas (sanctioned high fence hunting and failure to expand the crossbow season) are ill considered and selfish enterprises. If we continue to behave in this selfish and greedy manner, it will be the demise of our sport..not now, maybe not for my kids, but probably for my grandkids. Now, all of you "keepers of the tradition"...think about what you are doing and how you may be ensuring that your grand or great grandkids are not going to have the opportunity hunt that you have.

Terry Sullivan

[Skipper]

Good post Terry.

We have not tried to deny anyone access to the 9th District. In fact, we switched from quarterly meetings to monthly meetings in June so that we could concentrate efforts on bringing in new clubs to the Federation. All of us have made many visits and calls attempting to get other clubs involved. One problem the 9th has is it's geography. The 9th stretches from Bell County to Wayne County. It is over 2 hours from one end of the district to the other. With fuel at $3 per gallon, it's tough to get people to drive a couple hours to a meeting. Unlike some of the districts that are much closer spaced, the distance is a handicap for us.

That said, Voting rights in the Federation are granted to a Club. A club may have 1 or 2 votes depending on the number of members it has. The clubs must be admitted to the federation by a vote of the member clubs and when they apply for admittance they have to bring in their by laws. The cervid farmer group is a group of individuals, not a club. They have not presented a club for membership or submitted a set of by laws. It is my opinion that their sole purpose in coming to our meetings is to fillabuster our time so that we get nothing done. They have not demonstrated that they are interested in any wildlife issues other than the 1 issue we are opposed to that happens to affect them. To that end, I really don't know what the answer is. We have not had any oppositon to our stance on the canned hunting issue from any of the member clubs. The only opposition is the group of cervid farmers. What do you think? Should we turn over the 9th Federation to an opposition group so that they can be successful in stopping a grass roots organization from doing what it is that the organization does? I don't think we are obligated.

One similarity between the crossbow issue and the high fenced hunting issue is Both are hot button issues with sportsmen. One major difference is sportsmen can affect the outcome of the crossbow issue one way or the other through their voices to the KDFWR who is making the regulations on the use of the weapon. With the High Fenced hunting issue, until regulation of them is put back into the KDFWR, sportsmen have no say on the issue.

Skip

[9th Fair Chase Hunter]

How Are we suppose to be a voice for the sportsmen in ky if we are not supose to speak out against something we do not like. :confused:

[grouseguy]

Mark,

With all due respect. We all know that you represent Lou Ortega's district. We all know and have known for some time that You, Taxi Mike aka Mike Ohlman are both supporters of the Cervid industry.



Skip,

Once again, I need to correct your inaccurate statements. Lou Ortega is NOT a resident of the 8th district...he MAY be a member of the Elliott Co. Sportsmens Club, which is in my district, but I simply don't know for sure. It is my understanding that Lou is a resident of the 4th District. Lou, nor any other cervid rancher, are my "buddies"...we have met, we have discussed the issues, both parties were respectful of each other, and that's it. We have NEVER hunted together, shared a meal together, been to each others homes, or in any way met outside of a LKS or Federation meeting, as "buddies" would tend to do. Also, I have never even spoke, in person or by phone, with Taxi Mike.

As far as I know, there are two cervid facilities in my district (but there are probably more that I am unaware of)...Lafe Boggs (Bowhunter10) in Elliott Co., and Jackie's Deer Lures in Lewis County...Lafe is an LKS member through the Elliott Co. Sportsmen's Club, and I am unsure if Jackie Barbour is or not...possibly through the Trinity F&G Club, which is close to his facility. At the 8th District Federation meeting in July, where this was discussed, KDFWR biologist and LE personnel spoke in support of these individuals, especially Lafe Boggs, for his efforts in raising reward money to fight poaching in Elliott County and their success as a result of those efforts. Those are the FACTS.

As for the issue in general, regarding the two remaining parts of the governor's executive order:

Out of an abundance of caution for any potential harm to the resource, although I believe it to be minimal, I have never supported revoking the ban on importation of cervids into KY.
But, I don't see the harm in allowing additional permits, so long as those new facilities are stocked with farm raised KY cervids that are in compliance with the CWD program already established.Furthermore, I am NOT a supporter of the cervid ranchers, and I am NOT an opponent of the cervid ranchers...personally, they simply don't affect me...PERIOD.

YOU need to quit making up baseless allegations about people you have NEVER met. In my previous post, I attempted to be sympathetic to your struggle...I have been there on other issues...but you insisted on responding to me like an ass. I normally don't form a dislike for someone that I've never even met, but you could be the exception to that rule.

Good Day to You!

[Skipper]

I normally don't form a dislike for someone that I've never even met, but you could be the exception to that rule.

I'm going to have to make it a point to go meet Ernie Fletcher sometime.

Skipper

[LoweBow]

Ah, where to begin....

The situation in the ninth appears, from an outside observer, to be a case of a group trying to pack the district's membership in order to further their one special agenda. Here in the Third, the UBK has coalesced a group to oppose a crossbow season. They recently held a putsch (called by some a meeting) in which they rewrote the rules and consolidated their power into the hands of the anti-crossbow crowd. They now claim to speak for third district sportsmen when they oppose an expanded crossbow season, when the recently released survey on the issue indicates that 59% of the hunters and landowners in the Third District favor an expanded season. Clearly, the regeim of the Third District that purports to speak for the sportsmen of their district are giving voice to a message that is not what the majority thinks. One wonders if this might be the case with the high fence hunters in the ninth.

Terry Sullivan

Terry...
I take offense to this as I was the only UBK rep to run for office and there were only 3 UBK voting members at that meeting. The results of the election were 49 to 5 if I was told correctly. The 3rd Federation voted on opposing the crossbow expansion at a meeting I didn't even attend. I feel that you are taking a poke at me and my leadership skills by insinuating that this was anything more than just an election.
Rewrote the rules?
If you are referring to trying to help fix the bylaws in accordance to what the State board asked for......?
I have no qualm w/ Kent or the job he did and actually told him months ago that I'd run for Director if ever nominated. I am just stepping forward to try to help rejuvinate the 3rd. w/ some younger blood. No inside agenda. Had you stayed last night you would have found my personel opinion on the whole crossbow fiasco.
Mike Whelan

[daking]

Take all the offense you want....it's free.

The whole bylaw thing was a put-up job. They were made by a secretive committee, given out without any way to determine what changes were being made and then adopted in a manner that violated the bylaws and THEN the first act after the adoption of the bylaws was to violate them. If that's not fishy, nothing is.

Finally, I left early to get my son to his hockey game in Lexington. Although this issue (as are most hunting and fishing issues) very important to me, my kids trump all. So lest those who read these posts not be misled, I didn't leave out of laziness or because I was in a huff, it was in order to be a good parent. I was also happy to have my son there so he could see how the real world works. He had some rather interesting observations about the whole magilla.

If I seem a little harsh, it is because I believe that being a sportsman is to be fair and generoous. Since I've seen nothing that convinces me that the extended crossbow season would 1) have any deleterious effect on the resource, 2) would not create any additional danger in the woods and 3) Would not impact the traditional bow hunter in any way except having the woods to themselves for an extended season, I think that the opposition to the extended season is both unfair and stingy. So since offense is free, I'm going to take a healthy measure at that.

Terry Sullivan

[schuyler olt]

The 3rd district meeting the other night was difficult. However, I'm proud of everyone involved in the way things were generally handled. I don't know what the motives were or even if there were any motives, and I'm not sure I even want to know. What I can say is that the evening ended with a discussion about how to recruit more CO's, and how to best protect the quality of gobbler hunting in the spring by looking at fall limits.

And I left that night tasked with the job of improving upon the by-laws that got passed that night, because everyone saw as we worked through the process that they still needed work.

The bottom line was that by and large we disagreed agreeably and ended the evening constructively, and that's a good thing.

But I will say, and I'll go to my grave saying it, that what was done in the case of the Director was in error. But the body ruled, and so we move on. Such is the way of doing the right thing ultimately.

[String Music]

Congrats to Mike for being elected. I'm sure he'll doa great job. Sure hope it wasn't a screwing to Kent though. Kent has always done more than his share and should be congratulated.

[LoweBow]

I never set out to "screw" anyone. I would hope by now most see that I can not be "just a member" of anything I do. I have to have my hands dirty in on all that goes on. I won't be known as the guy that "screwed" anyone and will not have my integrity questioned especially by someone that does not know me. I believe that through this whole mess I've shown that this is one trait I do have.
What do we need to do here? Do I resign until the bylaws are fixed then have another election? You guys tell me.
Mike

[String Music]

I'm sure if something wasn't right, it wasn't your doing. I'm just sorry for Kent. But like I said, you'll be a good one. Thanks for serving.

[daking]

Mike, I want to be perfectly clear about something..actually two things.

First, I think that the bylaws change were at best done in an irregular manner. I also feel like Kent was wrongfully cheated out of his second year as LKS director

Second, I didn't say that you were part of a conspiracy to screw Kent, nor do I think you did any shady. You did benefit as a result of what I percieve to be a screwing, but I don't think you participated in the screwing.

We have some strong disagreements and very different ways of approaching things. We could both speak volumes about these disagreements. One thing I am convinced of is that you are a square shooter and you play by the rules. I believe you to be honest. I cannot say that I have the same sentiments towards everyone involved. Ah, well, life is bigger than Third District elections and bylaws. One thing for sure, all of us has to live with the results of their actions.

Now for a little parable...

Once, a young duck decided he didn't want to fly south for the winter...too much trouble. In about mid-October, he got cold and had to start the journey alone. Somewhere over northern Missouri, he succumbed to hypothermia and plummeted to the earth. At the point of the duck freezing to death, a steer wandered across the pasture and as luck would have it, made room for dinner all over the duck. Although his new covering was unpleasant, it was indeed warm. He thawed and got his strength back. He let out a few joyous quacks and then begin to try to free himself from his bovine used food prison. Hearing the quacks, a coyote rushed to the scene, picked through the cow pie, plucked out the duck and ate him.

The moral to this story is "he who craps on you is not necessarily your enemy. He who digs you out is not necessarily your friend"

Ponder that imponderable as it may apply to many situations that are encountered.

Terry Sullivan

[LoweBow]

Well.....sounds like we need to fix this or figure out a way to get through it. I only want to help the 3rd dist. and as I've said at multiple meetings.....I'm tired of being the only 30's something person in the room! (how many times did I say this while discussing BBBC) That's all i want to do is get more younger people out of there LAZY BOYZ and show interest in where we're heading. As this last issue shows.....things are changing at a super fast pace....We've got many more issues ahead! No diff. than what you're asking for w/ the CB. Recruitment!
My brakes don't come on....it's a bad trait in some situations, but I've made out well because of this flaw.
Lastly
there is no UBK conspiracy and no choppers circling around Ancorage....I just want to see the League prosper. If this is a bad start....We'll fix it.

[CreekerDude]

I can no longer remain silent on this issue. I attended the 3rd District Annual Meeting and was severely disappointed in the entire process of the Bylaws discussion. Two months ago, I received a copy of the initially revised Bylaws being told that we would be contacted for our opinions, suggestions and comments regarding this draft. I read through the bylaws very thoroughly and was amazed at how out of date and poorly written they were. It was obvious that a lawyer had NOT reviewed these. I won’t mention all the misspellings, examples of poor grammar, confusing language and purely confusing sentence structure of the document. This draft was probably close to needing life-support applied to it. This is our guiding document and should be treated with respect.

The 2+ hour discussion, as I had feared for days prior, turned into a deluge of discontentment, at times disbelief and general and total disarray. At various times in the discussions it was suggested that we simply ignore the bylaws, go ahead and change the bylaws, however we want, right there on the fly, without due consideration. Lastly, it was suggested that we follow the “letter of the law” as the bylaws were written (which was the wisest comment by the way).

What should have been done? That is very simple. First, the “Bylaws Committee” should have been formed within two weeks of the initial distribution of the revised draft. With that revised draft showing clearly the specific changes that had been made. This had not been done. The Bylaws Committee should have been comprised of one member from each 3rd District club, or at least an offer should have been made to each club to directly participate with a representative. Then all comments, suggestions and recommendations should have been compiled into a single draft for final consideration before the body of the 3rd District membership at the Annual Meeting.

The perception was that the Bylaws, as presented, were drafted in a vacuum, without the opportunity for full participation by all the member clubs. Now a lot of folks may dismiss all this “paperwork” and “fancy talk” as unnecessary, but if anyone had sat through those 2+ hours they would have a great appreciation as to why having the “proper” language in our Bylaws is important…we wasted 2+ hours of time that should have been dedicated to much more important issues such as CWD or bringing the 40 and under crowd into our fold!

So, perhaps we have learned, for the future, the importance of making sure that all have had a fair and equal opportunity to participate in any such process that is of such importance to the continuity and future vitality of our District. It is important to remember that, not unlike the state and federal governments, those that are governed “grant” the “right” to be govern.

[String Music]

Sounds like a mess......not sure what happened, but it looks like more crap from the leader of the 3rd, not the Directer, but the President.

Hate to bring up the word crossbow, but since someone from the 3rd started the distrust by deliberately lying to Gailor prior to the March 4th Commission meeting, it's highly likely that this crap is from the same person??? Don't know, and don't care. But I do know that until this crap is fixed, the 3rd has lost a lot of credibility, and it's likely all due to one person. What's bad is that someone like Kent and now Mike have to suffer the consequences of one person actions. Shame! :mad:

[daking]

Pretty perceptive, String. What's worse, the new by-laws give the officers the ability to serve forever. If indeed, people wake up and see what has happened, their only recourse will be at the ballot box or to move to recall the offending parties. I think Creekerdude and I will gladly tell them "we told you so."

"The tree of freedom occasionally has to be watered with blood"

Thomas Jefferson


Terry Sullivan

[String Music]

Forever is a looong time....but the fact is, there is not any big long line forming to run for these positions. Which is a complement for folks like Mike and Kent who are willing to serve. It's also the reason why these things need to be done in the correct and fair as way as posible.

[daking]

String, as you may or may not know, the 3rd's bylaws were revised by the present administration. Their proposed revisions were given to the member clubs with no copy of the original bylaws or the changes noted so that one could determine the changes. As Creekerdude noted, they were weak before and even more poorly written in their latest iteration. The big bones of contention was that the new bylaws allow the officers of the federation to serve without term limits...which as close to forever as I can imagine. They also changed the annual meeting to February from October so that the terms of the KWFFand League directors would expire in the same month as all of the other districts. Finally, two sections of the bylaws were in conflict. One says the directors serve for two years, the other says that the directors are elected in odd years. The sitting League director was elected in 2002. Invoking the odd year clause, he was made to stand for election again....even though he had a year left on the term that he won fair and square. All of this was railroaded into place at the last meeting. No meaningful opportunity for input on the bylaws was given to the member clubs except at this meeting. When asked at the meeting why he didn't seek the advice and consent of the member clubs who elected him before revising these bylaws, the president is on record as having said "I don't have to".

Now, there is speculation about why things were done this way. There is a school of thought that believes that the president knew he was serving a term beyond the three allowed by the original bylaws and the new bylaws would allow him to not onlyto avoid being removed from office as an improperly elected officer but would allow him to serve in perpetuity. The decision to allow the odd-year election clause to trump the duly elected two year term was in some people's mind an attemt for the president to remove the League director with whom he was at odds. Since the revisions of the bylaws was done in a vacuum and without the advice and consent of the member clubs the president served, it would be reasonable for a member club to be suspicious of the motives behind the revisions.

At this point, there are those who believe that the president's actions have earned their mistrust. It is completely understandable that people have reservations about actions that were not taken in a transparent manner. Whether or not the president will be able to lead the district with this cloud of mistrust hanging over his head is a good question. He would be wise to reach out to those who are offended by this mess and try to reestablish a rapport. He needs the good graces of the entire district to lead it forward. He needs the help of a lot of folks to ensure that the convention goes off well. It was an unwise time to alienate anyone. One can only speculate what motivated him to do what was done or who influenced him to do what was done. One thing's for sure, if he doesn't make amends and daggone quick and with absolute sincerity, he's liable to be in for a tough year.

I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

Terry Sullivan

[LoweBow]

Forever is a looong time....but the fact is, there is not any big long line forming to run for these positions. Which is a complement for folks like Mike and Kent who are willing to serve. It's also the reason why these things need to be done in the correct and fair as way as posible.

well said, but I think for now some of this needs to be settled and handled out of the non-league public eye. No need airing our dirty laundry. IMO
Mike

[daking]

No, Mike, I think the thing to do is expose it to the public eye. Had these issues been discussed in a manner that included the member clubs who elected these folks, we wouldn't be at this pass. Secrecy is a bad thing. Since EVERY club (with the exception of the chosen few who were invited to participate in the bylaw revisions) there is no expectation that this administration will ever do anything in a transparent manner unless forced to. Since there are those among us that cannot do the right thing when no one is watching, maybe it's a good thing to have everyone watching.

Terry Sullivan

[Taxi Mike]

Originally Posted by Skipper
Mark,

With all due respect. We all know that you represent Lou Ortega's district. We all know and have known for some time that You, Taxi Mike aka Mike Ohlman are both supporters of the Cervid industry.



Skippy:

A few pieces of friendly advice:

1st
Read gouseguys post below and assume I said that to you myself:

grouseguy (http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/member.php?u=9) http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_191837", true);
10 Pointer

YOU need to quit making up baseless allegations about people you have NEVER met. In my previous post, I attempted to be sympathetic to your struggle...I have been there on other issues...but you insisted on responding to me like an ass. I normally don't form a dislike for someone that I've never even met, but you could be the exception to that rule.


2nd:
I have held numerous hunting and fishing licenses every year for more than 40 years now and have been an active advocate of hunting for more than 30 years. If you think naming me or labeling me as a Cevid industry supporter will help your cause I would hope you go to the effort to tell every sportsman and legislator in KY.

3rd:
I've spoken in support of, recommended caution and prudence on and outwardly opposed hunting and wildlife issues all along the way. Most that have had opposing views on one issue stood beside me on others. Very few sportsmen can not consider me a friend. If you truly are interested in working with sportsmen for our sport you might want to go back and reread the portion of Grouseguys post that I bolded.

And finally:
As far as your noting the crossbow and cervid issues as "Hot issues" I would share with you that I was in New Jersey last month and all the press related to the Red Socks and Yankees playoffs as the "Hottest contended pinnate race of the century" Now a month later all the "facts are in" and low and behold out in the Windy City the White Socks are the only ones still standing!

Skippy writes..."One similarity between the crossbow issue and the high fenced hunting issue is Both are hot button issues with sportsmen."....

So maybe getting the facts and staying in the game would serve you better than going around pushing buttons hoping to see something happen!

[LoweBow]

No, Mike, I think the thing to do is expose it to the public eye. Had these issues been discussed in a manner that included the member clubs who elected these folks, we wouldn't be at this pass. Secrecy is a bad thing. Since EVERY club (with the exception of the chosen few who were invited to participate in the bylaw revisions) there is no expectation that this administration will ever do anything in a transparent manner unless forced to. Since there are those among us that cannot do the right thing when no one is watching, maybe it's a good thing to have everyone watching.

Terry Sullivan

I can certainly agree to that, but don't want to push away any non members or clubs in the process.

[Skipper]

Mike,

The only thing I know to say about your reply is, you must be one of those Harvard Intellectuals, because if you understand the meaning of that, you are was smarter than most of us.

The last pro baseball game I went to was in 1986 or so. It was a church trip, and I probably went because the other boys did. The best I can remember is we had more fun trying to sneak down into the good seats than we did watching the Reds loose 1 to 0 in 12 innings. Truthfully, I could care less about White Sox, Red Sox, Braves or whatever. The newspaper probably has an article about Britany Speer's latest romance too. I didn't read that section either.

Skipper

[bigkybuck]

Ah, where to begin....


The situation in the ninth appears, from an outside observer, to be a case of a group trying to pack the district's membership in order to further their one special agenda. Here in the Third, the UBK has coalesced a group to oppose a crossbow season. They recently held a putsch (called by some a meeting) in which they rewrote the rules and consolidated their power into the hands of the anti-crossbow crowd. Terry Sullivan
Terry do us a favor and be quite. Stop bringing up the UBK in every other post as "they" had nothing to do with what happened the other night. I know who had something to do with what happened and "they" would be the 3rd district they spoke and did not favor anything you had to say. So be mad at your peers in the 3rd district if you feel the need to get mad but leave the UBK out of it. Your story about how the UBK is or isnt is getting a bit tiresome and out of line.Nobody wants to here it anymore except maybe the few members you have coalesced so that you can push your views on everyone else. Also so that you know if you read your booklet again you will see deer hunters OPPOSED a crossbow expansion but ALL other hunters favored it. If deer season is split down the middle and bow hunters get half and crossbow hunters get half then all partys win and life will go on. Your attitude was uncalled for and not appreciated by many at the meeting. It seems every year there was a vote for the director position and then this year someone found the bylaws that states it is a 2 year position and now you are crying because your buddy is not in office anymore. What happens if no one noticed the 2yr part like in the 18 years prior to last wed and there was another yearly directors vote and your friend loses Is that still the UBK's fault.?? Doesnt make since and you cant have it both ways. The 3rd district voted and that was that. IMO you should either come on board and help the LKS grow and become a stronger Org. or sit at home on the PC and cry because every idea/motion you tried failed terribly.Ponder this...It is better to sit silent and thought stupid,than to speak and remove all doubt.

[daking]

1) It takes real 'nads to post to the world from the shadows with no name, doesn't it? Your post might take on a bit more meaning if you had enough courage to sign it.

2) The new bylaws may state "directors are elected in odd years", but the old director was elected under the old bylaws. Those bylaws stated (as do the new ones) "directors are elected for two years". Whether or not an election was held for the director everyyear is immaterial. If the president himself was not clever enough to read the bylaws and hold the elections when they call for, it's not the body's fault. The past director was elected in 2004 for a two year term, pure, plain and simple. This was a cheap trick to oust him because he fell into disfavor with someone. I have been able to find the "I don't like you" clause in any set of bylaws, and that seems to be the one used to oust the last director.

3) The president was illegally elected to his last term. By rights, every official act he took for the past year was invalid. We'll give him a pass on that, because we were not sharp enough to catch that detail, but no club has been given a set of the bylaws, so maybe he's got some fault too. He did not want to give up his position, so he convened a small group to re-write the bylaws to give him the ability to be president for presumably the coming of the next ice age.

4) The new bylaws were prepared without the advice and consent of the member clubs fo the third district. It's a hell of a note that a few people draft a new document without even notifying the member clubs that there was an interest in doing so. It's at best a poor practice (and at worst sleazy) to ask people to consider bylaw changes in which the changes are not even identified nor are the original bylaws distributed so that the new and old can be prepared. On top of it all, it is the height of arrogance for the president, when asked about why he didn't allow input from each club in the preparation of the bylaws answered "I don't have to". Don't take my word for it. It's on the tape and in the minutes. Most people would be appalled if the mayor, the governor, the president said that they excluded the public from a decision "because they could". It would appear that the 3rd district president does not have to be as responsive to his constituentcy as does say the president of the United States.

4) With regards to bowhunters and the crossbow season, suffice it to say that the survey is in. The bowhunters had the opportunity to compromise, to bring a reasonable proposal to the table, to share a bit. They were rock-ribbed in their opposition and offered no meaningful compromise. Well, now the survey is in. The biological data is in. The experience of other states is in. The strong indication is that the proposed crossbow season will be enacted. You might go to the legislature for relief, but when you do, remember the success that the houndsmen had over changing the trespass and spotlightlaws. If you don't remember, they failed miserably, because the legislature had a clear message that sportsmen wanted the trespass and spotlight bills. The boat has left the dock, and you're standing on it.

Finally, I'll write what I damn well please on here. At least I sign my name, unlike you. As for keeping silent and letting people wonder if i'm stupid instead of opening my mouth and removing all doubt (the correct quote, by the way), one only has to go back and read some of the arguments that the more rock-ribbed bowhunters have given for not allowing the crossbow season and you'll really plumb the depths of stupidity. Once again, we live in America. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm sure you'd like for me to shut up. Facts are stubborn things. You can yell at them until you're blue in the face and they won't go away.

Terry Sullivan

[daking]

Oh, and while we're at it, "do you a favor and be quite" ? Why should I do you any favors? What have you done that would earn the slightest bit of my generosity? Be quite? Be quite what? I believe that the common word for which you are looking is quiet.

Terry Sullivan

[daking]

I just opened my Courier-Journal. In Gary Garth's column he quotes third district president JR Radcliff as saying that he'd like to see the commission table the crossbow issue until March. He said "there's no way this panel to make a decision with that much paperwork to digest".

Hell, JR, it's only a 40 page report and many of the pages are tables that are referenced in the body of the report. How many pages are there in the instruction manual for a flintlock? Does it take five months to digest that information?

The article goes on to say that his (JR's) constituency might support a crossbow season that begins with the modern gun season and runs to theend of bow season.

JR, let me point something out to you. Your constituency is the hunters and anglers of the third district. Some time in, say December, when you've read into the survey report a few pages, you'll find out that almost 58% of the hunters in the third district favor the full extension of the crossbow season. THAT'S A MAJORITY. YOU HAVE YOUR INSTRUCTIONS FROM YOUR CONSTITUENCY. DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD.

I posited earlier that the Tuesday Night Putsch was the efforts of those who opposed an extended crossbow season to cleanse the ranks of the Third District leadership of people who are not of a like mind and to speak as one voice, albeit the minority opinion, on the crossbow issue. This gives more credence to my assertion. that the force that now drives the leadership of the third district is dashing a crossbow season. It's being done to the exclusion of just about everything else and against the wishes of the majority of sportsmen and women in the Third.

Terry Sullivan

[daking]

And Finally:

Bigkybuck, you must be a newcomer. Get on the board and help the League? Since 1995, I've been the Secretary for the League, The League's NRA director, a contributing editor to the Kentucky Sportsman, Third District Vice President, President of the Harrod's Creek Field and Stream Club, Secretary of the Harrod's Creek Field and Stream Club, on the CWD task force, on the Crossbow committee. I'm now heading up the KWFF's annual giving campaign. I was Kentucky's 1995 and 2001 Conservation Communicator of the Year, the 2004 Sportsman of the year and the chairman of the 2006 Sportsman of the Year Committee. I was invited to testify before the United States Congress on the Migratory Bird Treaty Reform Act of 1997 to ensure proper treatment of dove hunters, a law that with the support of hunters, was passed.

I guess that a greenhorn might not have known all this. I didn't just start wailing away at this. I've been around long enough, done enough work, watched enough stuff and measure my opinions carefully. I believe I've earned the right to express an opinion on the subject, if I needed any right conferred by you.

Again, about that unsigned post.......


Terry Sullivan

[bigkybuck]

Terry this issue isnt about what you have or havent done. You've done your fair share of good things for the wildlife of the state im sure. In doing so it does'nt enable you to say what you want about the UBK? The 3rd district leaders?Im not making this a personal issue you are. I dont understand why you seem to want to start turmoil every time you speak? If you have a problem with the 3rd district president,vp,director,sec,treas,etc.. then take it up with them privately and not on a public message board where your words maybe taking out of context.BTW I also know earlier in the year there was a 3rd district meeting and the voting members voted NOT in favor of a crossbow expansion. So where are you getting the 3rd is in favor? Is it not possible that the third district president wanted to change the bylaws in order to get current with what the LKS wanted ??I didnt see anything in the new bylaws that would allow him to server his term untill the cows come home did you? Please post the information you think to be relevant to the president serving till the Ice Ages?Heres my name NUNYA

[daking]

Touchy, touchy, touchy....

The bylaws that were in effect until the new ones were proposed precluded the sitting president from running again. If you listened carefully to the meeting, you would have heard both past presidents and the sitting president affirm that.

YOU were the one who challenged me to work for the good of the League and persumably the sport. I merely tried to lead you from ignorance to enlightenment about what I've done and what I'm doing.

I don't enjoy controversy. What I enjoy less is a put-up job, which is what that was, so I I wanted to expose what I believe to be a travesty of justice. You may not feel it was a travesty, but I did, so I had my say. The last time I checked, this is a free country, my club's dues are paid to the Third and I was fully qualified to go to the meeting and have my say, like everyone else. Just because you don't like my opinion doesn't mean I can have or say it.

As for airing this on a public forum, that's what public forums are for. What are you afraid of? That you might lose in the arena of ideas?

I guess so, because you still don't have the guts to sign your name. I may have said some unpopular things, but I'm not ashamed to stand behind them. I guess the public will have to judge the validity of your opinions, the content of your character and what you yourself think of your opinions by your willingness to claim them as your own.

Terry Sullivan

[bigkybuck]

You had your say and Ive had mine lets move on. In all of this we have yet to hear from Mr. Cooper and his thoughts. I see him lurking around this post often.Im sure he will share your thoughts as it's probably the only side he has heard.

[String Music]

I'd bet Kent won't comment...too much class to address something as shady as this situation. Kent wouldn't do anything to embrass the League, as this whole mess surely does.

The 3rd District has a lot of work aheads of itself after this feasco, one of many since the new Prez has taken control. From letting non-LKS members vote on important issue such as a position statement on crossbow expansion is a classic example. Most likely, this is one of the nails in Kents coffin, the other was that he didn't take part in the crossbow resistance movement that has taken over the 3rd.

[Taxi Mike]

The only thing I know to say about your reply is, you must be one of those Harvard Intellectuals, because if you understand the meaning of that, you are was smarter than most of us.

Skippy:
Let things play out and wait untill all the facts are in!


and I probably went because the other boys did. The best I can remember is we had more fun trying to sneak down into the good seats
The two character traits you attest to here explain a lot about your posts!

[Bowcrazy]

Mark,

With all due respect. We all know that you represent Lou Ortega's district. We all know and have known for some time that You, Taxi Mike aka Mike Ohlman are both supporters of the Cervid industry.

I think you and your cervid ranching buddies would be making a big mistake to think for a minute that sportsmen throughout this state and for that matter all over the world are not becoming more and more aware of this problem. You would also be mistaken in believing that sportsmen aren't concerned for the future of hunting because of stunts such as this. I am not sure where you were at the convention in Paducah when the rest of us were at the policy development session in which the represented clubs overwhelmingly voted to put regulations into effect in Kentucky that would control people who wish to raise living rifle targets. While no hunter has a qualm with shooting an animal, it is a whole other matter to prop a doped animal up against a tree so that someone pretending to hunt can say "I've killed the biggest deer ever." It's a whole other thing when you place a deer in a fence the size of my back yard and someone shoots it with a bow then goes to tittering and laughing about what a feat he has accomplished. You can say whatever you want to say about it, that Bellar Video is about as convincing of a thing as any film that has ever been produced.

The facts are this. In Kentucky, the things that went on in the Bellar Video are currently legal. The League membership has voted at it's convention to put a stop to those activites. As we have found out in working toward that end, it is not possible to stop these sorts of activities so long as the Cervid people are hiding under the bossom of Maw Agriculture. The first step in this process is to put the cervid farms back under the regulation of the KDFWR, and really I could care less if that's what the cervid people want or not. I don't know of any business that gets to choose which governmental agency regulates it.

In the 9th District, we took a defunct organization that hadn't functioned in several years and are working on putting it back together. Unfortunately, our activities in this cervid matter have managed to take up all of our meeting time and that has slowed us on other business including growing the Federation. That said, I am well satisfied with the public support we are getting with our efforts. We have DU chapter people backing us, NWTF people backing us, RMEF people backing us (don't that just chap your behind), Quail Clubs backing us and many others. Further, we have support from Farm Bureau members, at least 1 KALA member, and many others. Don't think for a minute that this is going away, and certainly don't think for a minute that sportsmen or anyone else with knowledge on the subject is going to stand for these kinds of activities to continue unregulated in the State of Kentucky.

Neither 9th Fair Chase, I, or the other officers in this district are politicians. We don't intend to quit on an objective that the people who look to us as leaders in their district have said they want stopped. We aren't the kind of people who are going to let money and political pandering cause us to change our minds and compromise on what we believe is right. That is what our politicians do in Frankfort, City Hall, and the County Courthouse, and it's pretty obvious that respect for them has followed right along with their failure to keep their word when it comes to doing what is right and what their people asked them to do.

It is your right and Mike's right to belive as you do, but when it comes to the League, the membership was clear on the subject of cervid farming in Kentucky. They want the league to do 2 things, and that is see to it that hunting or whatever they want to call it on these farms is regulated in a manner that demonstrates Fair Chase, and they do not want cervids to be imported into the state of Kentucky in order to protect our wildlife and livestock from disease risks associated with bringing in more animals from out of state. If the league leadership wants to waffle on those requests the membership has made and not work to see to it that those regulations become law in this state, then the League has a serious credibility problem, and can look for the membership to let the Leadership know that they aren't happy with what is going on.

As I said earlier, if the membership in the 9th District doesn't want to support us in this manner and decides to vote us out at the next election, we'll gladly turn it over to them and let them run it as they see fit, but until then, they can count on me to work toward the goal of making the resolutions the League made at it's policy development session the law of the land.

Skip Walden
Corbin, KY

PS: I'm ready the call from Dale Weddle and Ronnie Wells that tells me I need to be more diplomatic or something like that.


Skip,

Regarding the first line of this post, I would suggest that you have not shown Mark much due respect at all and maybe need to go back and reread his post before this one. I believe Lou Ortega is from the 4th District and Grouseguy is from the 8th District.

Regarding the last line of this post, I will not be calling you and I doubt seriously that Ronnie will either.

I am going to be in far Western Kentucky next Tuesday and will not be able to attend the 9th District Federation meeting. Let me attempt to clear up some of the misinformation that has been posted on this thread.

Post #21 " Brook and his crew are individual members of the federation" .....there is no such thing as individual members of the 9th District Federation.

Post #31 " As far as I know there was no 9th District Federation 2 years ago"......there was a 9th District federation 2 years ago.

Post #36 " A club may have 1 or 2 votes ".......the 9th District Federation Bylaws has no provision for more than 1 vote per club. I think some of the other districts may but not the 9th.

Post ##21 " Each Federation has a process where clubs must apply for membership status in the federation and be voted in by the voting delegates from the other member clubs."...........someone from another district can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the 9th District is the only District that has this process in their bylaws.

[Skipper]

I believe Lou Ortega is from the 4th District and Grouseguy is from the 8th District.

Since Boyd County is in the 8th District, I'd say it is a safe bet that Lou has connections in both the 8th District and the 4th District.

It appears that Lou has 2 hunting lodges. One in Boyd County and another in Burkesville. The one in Boyd county seems to be for sale for $650,000. Help me remember, but which club did Lou vote for at the convention? I thought it was Elliott County Sportsmans, but I could be mistaken on that.

Dale, I realize that you don't have a lot of respect for Kevin or I, and for whatever reason think that we are subordinate to you, but as I've said before neither one of us are politicians and don't want to be. We agreed to do our part for the sportsmen in this district. The overwhelming opinion of sportsmen is that this canned hunting business is wrong and should be stopped and or prevented from happening in Kentucky. My point to Mark is this, the sportsmen have voted that they want these operations regulated. We want to make that happen. When a league director goes against what the body has voted to do, then that league director had better be prepared for the backlash that comes with it.

Skipper

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Wrong again Skipper I don’t have hunting preserve in Boyd County and never had. I have a property for sale. I also have other properties for sale spread out through Kentucky and other States. I am big on private property.

Your attacks on Mark Rodgers are simply not factual. My meetings with Mark have been like another members of the LKS at LKS directors meetings and I have never attended an 8 th district meeting. My discussion with Mark has been brief and I have much more to speak to him about.

I belong to the 4 th district and have attended meetings and functions at the 4 th and thank God I have never met anyone like you. But we do have Multi, only kidding Multi. See ya at the fish fry.

[String Music]

Lou is a member od the 4th, not that you can't be a member of other districts as well. I don't see where it matters, as long as he's a LKS member of one of them. I also don't believe any district Federation should be able to black ball any person or any club. seems that this should be a matter fro the League board to look into?