Ky-nwtf

[String Music]

Looks like the Ky-NWTF have joined the fracas. Got a letter and the DVD today asking for support AGAINST private commercial ownership of wildlife in Ky., including any high fences that impede or restrict natural movement of wildlife or take of "wild" wildlife from public use, also canned hunting of cervids behind a fence, future importation of cervids into Ky., and asking to transfer regulatory control to the KYDFWR. They are going to the
legislature with it. Hope it doesn't restrict other forms of hunting, such as ?????? :cool:

[Taxi Mike]

Coming from a large group that doesn't seem to have a dog in the chase it sounds like a travisty but I'll reserve my opinion until I see it!

I'm sure it would adversly effect many other things, hopefully not the support and tolarance farmers have had for turkey densities and hunters.

[spurs]

Thankyou for proving the case for the 9th federation. We have been saying all along that all sportsmen and for that fact all citizens in this state have a dog in this chase. This is more than a closed issue between cervid ranchers and the KDF&W. I think that all those that see the Beller DVD would agree that this or any practice remotely related to it, is not only highly unethical but down right inmoral. When society replaces their morals and ethics with the all mighty dollar, then this is a symptom that we all have been infected with the sickness of greed!

[Taxi Mike]

Spurs:

I can't begin to count the number of times I have read or heard astoundingly similar rightious remarks from Animal Rights activists when defending a wide variety of animal use issues.

The main difference is AR's put all animals on equal plain as humans, while at this point it seems that some of our folks only wish to give "blessed status" to certain species.

Mike

[schuyler olt]

Part of the NWTF mission statement is "preserving the hunting heritage." Not the turkey hunting heritage, the hunting heritage. NWTF members come from all walks of life, all backgrounds, and they share the common bond of hunting and conservation. Indeed, most of us believe that hunters are the greatest, most effective and best informed of all conservationists.

Practices shown on the Bellar tape are a greater threat to hunting, and hence to conservation, than PETA will ever hope to be. Why? Because the future of hunting lies in neither the hands of the hunters or the anti-hunters, but in the majority that don't hunt but do not oppose it. Most of those people look at the antics and the rhetoric of PETA and don't swallow a bit of it.

But let them look at that tape and let them form the impression that this is the way we pursue our hunting lifestyle, and we are in big trouble. We are the ones who can most effectively turn them into anti-hunters by engaging in conduct that is frankly disgusting to any normal person. We cannot afford to even think about condoning those practices.

I think the hunting preserves should have the first opportunity to police themselves. If they can't or won't, the KDFWR must step in. If it can't or won't, we should have no qualms about going to the legislature.

The hunting heritage is at stake. I am proud of the NWTF for standing up and taking a position to preserve its mission statement.

And besides, most members hunt more species than turkeys, and want every possible voice singing in the choir.

[String Music]

KY-NWTF is against private ownership of wildlife-without defining wildlife or setting the parameters. Will this outlaw urine and deer scent producers such as Jackie's. Yes it will. Has Jackie's ever held a canned hunt on his facility--doubt it.

KY-NWTF is against "High Fences" without defining what a high fence is or why it was erected. Could it outlaw a fence erected for a private landowner who has no intention of holding a canned hunt or even a commercial hunt--yes it could.

KY-NWTF is against canned hunts behind a fence--Are they also against canned hunts outside of a fence????? We don't know, do they?

KY-NWTF is asking to go tothe Legislature. Good move - bad move??? Time will tell.

[Highbow]

Where will the hunts on such areas as Fort KNox and BlueGrass Army DEpot fall within these high fence restrictions?? I just want to protect these areas from any unneeded problems.

[spurs]

Mike:
It seems being called an animal rights activist or peta member or some similar comment is common place among some of the supporters of " pen shoots". If having respect for all living things is being an animal rights activist, then there are probably many of us. I don't think having etics or morals makes one a radical activist of some sort. I don't think AR people are to concerned with an act such has shooting deer in a pen, giving a negative impact to hunting, as a matter of fact they would probably support it to prove their arguments against hunting. I probably should rephrase, shooting deer in a pen and refering to it as hunting they would support. No, what I am is a concerned sportsmen that has promoted ethical hunting my whole life.I have taught ethical hunting to my children as well as others. I am one of these hunters who believes in quick humane kills, this out of respect for the animal, not to brag about my shooting skills. I also am one of these nuts that actually puts my deer in the bed of a truck, so others don't have to look at it if they choose not to. I am also one of these idiots, as we have been called, that believes all Kentuckians have the right to express their views and opinions to the issues at hand. I am also a man of values and ethics, that may explain why I never have stooped to name calling and negative comments while discussing important issues.

[Taxi Mike]

Mike:
It seems being called an animal rights activist or peta member or some similar comment is common place among some of the supporters of " pen shoots". If having respect for all living things is being an animal rights activist, then there are probably many of us. I don't think having etics or morals makes one a radical activist of some sort. I don't think AR people are to concerned with an act such has shooting deer in a pen, giving a negative impact to hunting, as a matter of fact they would probably support it to prove their arguments against hunting. I probably should rephrase, shooting deer in a pen and refering to it as hunting they would support. No, what I am is a concerned sportsmen that has promoted ethical hunting my whole life.I have taught ethical hunting to my children as well as others. I am one of these hunters who believes in quick humane kills, this out of respect for the animal, not to brag about my shooting skills. I also am one of these nuts that actually puts my deer in the bed of a truck, so others don't have to look at it if they choose not to. I am also one of these idiots, as we have been called, that believes all Kentuckians have the right to express their views and opinions to the issues at hand. I am also a man of values and ethics, that may explain why I never have stooped to name calling and negative comments while discussing important issues.

Spurs:

You sound like my kind of guy! Responsible Father, Responsible Hunter, Caring and Concerned.

I too believe all KYians have a right to express their views and I refrain from calling folks "idiots" and try not to brand folks at all.

Expressing a view parallell to an Anti wouldn't necessarily make one an Anti." But it could give an indication of the delima the average voter faces when asked to decide on an issue without a full fair assessment.

[Skipper]

Mike,

One thing you seem to have a hard time understanding is Who Is and Who Isn't supporting animal welfare.

There are all kinds of wierdo organizations such as Peta who proclaim to be the ones protecting animals, but are they? When is the last time Peta spent half a million dollars building a marsh so ducks would have somewhere to nest? When was the last time Peta spent several million dollars to restore birds like Turkey to places like Eastern Kentucky that hadn't had enough turkey in it to find one since the Civil War. Did Peta spend money jumping through hoops so that there would be a herd of wild elk in Eastern, Kentucky for our children and grand children to see?

Lets take it a step further. If the KDFWR is the agency in Kentucky charged with the responsibility of protecting our wildlife and fisheries, when is the last time Peta invested a dime into the agency? Since the agency is 100% user funded by hunting, fishing, and boating licenses, I would say they have never spent a dime in Kentucky where it counts in seeing to it that we pass down a state abundant with wildlife to our children.

Sure, those people can jump up and down and scream that they are protecting wildlife. I'm sorry, the proof is here to see. It's the Sportsmen in this state who have worked through organizations such as the RMEF, NWTF, DU, BASS, and the LKS that have turned this state into the "Sportsmen's Paradise" that it is.

So, when it comes to something that has the potential to do irreparable harm to the wildlife and fisheries of this state, who exactly did you expect to stand up and be counted? Peta? Maybe, but the ones who are going to stand up to it and do what's required to stop it will be the Sportsmen's organizations. Peta may cry and whine, but the Sportsmen's groups have shown that they are serious about protecting wildlife. Who makes the game laws in this state? Peta? No. It's the sportsmen who actively participate in the commission system of the KDFWR. Over the years, we are the ones who have set our own limits, our own seasons, and our own lists of acceptable methods so that we could manage the game in this state. I would venture a guess that the majority of calls to Law Enforcement for reporting hunting or fishing violations comes from other sportsmen.

When you start calling sportsmen animal rights activists, you may be partially correct in that sportsmen generally work toward doing what is best for the fish and wildlife. It's not all about killing a deer or catching a livewell full of fish. It's about participating in hunting and fishing. I know I hunt with a camera quite a bit, and it is ever bit as exciting for me to come home with a good photograph of a 7x7 bull elk as it would be to have shot one and be hauling it home in my truck. Possibly the most exciting part is seeing that same animal next year with new additions to the herd and a larger rack. I've got one paticular bull that I have pictures of for the last 3 years. In that time, he's gone from being a 4x4 to being a 7x8 and the number in that herd has grown quite a bit.

Skipper

[Taxi Mike]

Mike,

One thing you seem to have a hard time understanding is Who Is and Who Isn't supporting animal welfare.

There are all kinds of wierdo organizations


Great Stump speach Skipper!

Don't waste it on me I venture to say I understand Animal rights and Sportsmens role in concervation better than most!

I have reread these threads a number of times and I don't see where we disagree on the "facts" just the premis!

And when it's all said and done I'd prefer not to see knee jerk reactions put any sportmen's groups on that list you site!

[Skipper]

So you are lumping in the NWTF with the Wierdos like Peta since they came out against canned huntiing?

Skipper

[schuyler olt]

Mike,

Your initial post on here was basically to chastise the Ky-NWTF for taking a position on high-fence hunting operations, based on your claim that "they don't have a dog in the chase." Hopefully, you can now see how the NWTF does have a stakeholder interest in this issue.

Next to the RMEF, the Ky-NWTF gave the most money of any group to the elk restoration. Aside from what I posted earlier, I think any responsible organization should strive to protect its investment, which is obviously threatened by the potential of CWD should it be found here.

Since I no longer serve on the State board of directors, my opinions are solely my own. Personally, I am not concerned by ethical fair-chase hunting within high fences. Personally, I do not believe that an animal taken within a high fence should be scored against one taken in the wild. There's way too much management of the animals (i.e. vaccinations, supplements, antibiotics, adequate food and water) to compare them to their brethren who don't have those advantages. Similarly, an impala taken in Texas should not be officially compared to one taken in South Africa. I don't have a problem with an organization like SCI which does that, but then scoring to me doesn't mean much.

I don't have a problem with folks raising cervids ASIDE FROM the potential of CWD. The Lou Ortega's are not the problem. The problems are the divorcee who turns her ex's herd loose for spite, or the guy who can't afford to manage them and turns them loose, or the guy who gets way too aggressive and has an animal density way beyond what anybody would consider reasonable.

But the CWD issue is completely different from the Bellar issue. The first issue is about trying to find a middle ground that reasonably protects both interests while we learn more about the disease. The second is about people acting in a manner that is threatening to all blood sports, and the reputable guys like Lou should be locking arms with us on this one, and helping make danged sure that stuff does not go on here.

And I hope they will.

[Taxi Mike]

Skipper__________________
Skip's Outdoors Magazine (http://www.skipsoutdoors.com/) :

Skipper: That head must not be doing too well, you might go have it looked at. I haven't lumped anyone and have ask you on numberous occasions not to put words in my mouth!

[LoneRanger]

As a member of the NWTF in Ky., I feel it's my part to weigh in here. The State Board, nor anyone else has asked my opinion on this matter, or if they sould lobby the Legislature to get their way. I'm not for or against high fence areas, but I'm surely against going to the Legislature for satisfaction that will most likely end up as a diasaster. Taking a broad and vague problem to a bunch of non-hunters to sort out is asking for trouble. When it happens, the clowns running the NWTF will be responsible, not the game farmers.

[Taxi Mike]

Schuyler:Re
Mike,

Your initial post on here was basically to chastise the Ky-NWTF for taking a position on high-fence hunting operations, based on your claim that "they don't have a dog in the chase." Hopefully, you can now see how the NWTF does have a stakeholder interest in this issue.

Next to the RMEF, the Ky-NWTF gave the most money of any group to the elk restoration. Aside from what I posted earlier, I think any responsible organization should strive to protect its investment, which is obviously threatened by the potential of CWD should it be found here.

My initial post was in response to a "general" announcment with a significant slant,Looks like the Ky-NWTF have joined the fracas. Got a letter and the DVD today asking for support AGAINST private commercial ownership of wildlife in Ky., including any high fences that impede or restrict natural movement of wildlife or take of "wild" wildlife from public use, also canned hunting of cervids behind a fence, future importation of cervids into Ky., and asking to transfer regulatory control to the KYDFWR. They are going to the
legislature with it. Hope it doesn't restrict other forms of hunting, such as ??????
to it I responded :Taxi Mike (http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/member.php?u=3657) http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/images/statusicon/user_invisible.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_187894", true);
Spike
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Jefferson County
Posts: 58


http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Having not seen it ....
Coming from a large group that doesn't seem to have a dog in the chase it sounds like a travisty but I'll reserve my opinion until I see it!

You know that I chastise way better than that!!! And that I try to be very fair and not prejudge issues, groups or people.

Both of your responses seem like reasonable positions. I certainly hope those that now speak for NWTF are like minded.

(As an aside and in light of your pointing out that many of us belonging to multiple conservation orgs I think it would be fair to note that:
Next to the General Sportsmen of KY and then the RMEF, the Ky-NWTF gave the most money of any group to the elk restoration!)

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Mike,

Next to the RMEF, the Ky-NWTF gave the most money of any group to the elk restoration. Aside from what I posted earlier, I think any responsible organization should strive to protect its investment, which is obviously threatened by the potential of CWD should it be found here.


I don't have a problem with folks raising cervids ASIDE FROM the potential of CWD. The Lou Ortega's are not the problem. The problems are the divorcee who turns her ex's herd loose for spite, or the guy who can't afford to manage them and turns them loose, or the guy who gets way too aggressive and has an animal density way beyond what anybody would consider reasonable.

But the CWD issue is completely different from the Bellar issue. The first issue is about trying to find a middle ground that reasonably protects both interests while we learn more about the disease. The second is about people acting in a manner that is threatening to all blood sports, and the reputable guys like Lou should be locking arms with us on this one, and helping make danged sure that stuff does not go on here.

And I hope they will.

Schuyler,

I have written sufficiently about what my position as it relates to privately owned farm raised cervid. Our facilities are all enrolled in a CWD program that follows the recommendations of the USDA. All our animals when they die for any reason or are harvested are tested for CWD. Our animals are tested for TB and Brucelosis before we transport any animal anywhere. Like I have said before our Kentucky cervid farms are tested for disease and we are clean. By stating that your concern is CWD in Kentucky farms only shows that you do not know anything about Kentucky CWD program instituted back in 2002. Your obvious lack of concern in the importation of 1550 elk from now CWD infected States only shows your prejudice towards our industry. Look at the CWD program that the KALA help create and had to fight KDFWR to implement. Look at today’s KDA CWD program regulations. Then you will realize what the cervid farmer has done to protect their livestock and Kentucky from CWD. KALA was the only organization that attempted to stop the importation into Kentucky of 800 elk that were held in New Mexico in a captive facility. Our concern was because of a warning from the USDA not to transport cervids from western USA to the eastern USA because of CWD. KDFWR transported the elk anyways and days latter they found CWD in New Mexico. The elk were brought in because of the money; it obviously trumped any concern for CWD. The restoration project must go on at any costs. You can tell a bunch num nuts your CWD story but please enough is enough our farms are regulated for health concerns and we are now 3 year CWD certified.

As far as the Bellar tape is concern you can put it back in the record files of peta or were ever you pulled it out off. Anyone can get tapes like that from the peta files and discredit the livestock industry and discredit the hunting industry. If it is something you must use to discredit the farm industry in Kentucky that’s your call but don’t be surprised when another tape floats around the legislature about the “abuses of hunting” only to prove that your tape is not a fair representation of Kentucky cervid farms or the moral values of Kentucky farmers.

KALA’s position is clear on the humane harvesting of animals as it applies to all livestock.

At the next KALA directors meeting I will present for discussion to the board a harvesting facility policy statement that mirrors the SCI policy on harvesting facilities.

[Skipper]

As far as the Bellar tape is concern you can put it back in the record files of peta or were ever you pulled it out off. Anyone can get tapes like that from the peta files and discredit the livestock industry and discredit the hunting industry. If it is something you must use to discredit the farm industry in Kentucky that’s your call but don’t be surprised when another tape floats around the legislature about the “abuses of hunting” only to prove that your tape is not a fair representation of Kentucky cervid farms or the moral values of Kentucky farmers.

That sounds like a threat toward the sportsmen in this state.

Skipper

[daking]

What everyone seems to forget is the Bellar DVD is a compilation of the EVIDENCE SUBMITTED AT TRIAL against Bellar. 2 weeks before he was charged, Bellar Place was touted as a model for "hunting preserves". Bam! He's indicted on 39 felony counts. The evidence (including what you see on the dvd) mounts, and some days into the trial Bellar cops a plea to 35 of the 39 felonies and is now the guest of the Terra Haute Federal Bed and Breakfast. A PeTA production? Not hardly!

If the industry was holding Bellar out as a good example some two weeks before the bust and the industry rigorously fights any further government intervention, what does that say about the industry? THAT'S the argument that needs to be framed and answered. The deer farming/hunting preserve industry has let itself fall into this disrepute. Rather than try to squelch the DVD, one would think that the industry would try a little restraint, decorum and be willing to take the lumps it earned itself. No, they're going to blame ethical hunters who point this out as a severe problem for the hunting community for being anti-hunting. It's a nice red herring, but it won't fly.

Terry Sullivan

[String Music]

Hard to argue with Terry on his post. It's pretty much spot on. But it pretains to what happened in Indiana, not what might happen in Ky., not that it hasn't. But the point is that the Farming Industry needs to clean it's own house before asking others, like the LKS to go to bat for them. Take note that the outcry that came from the Bellar incident will have the same momentum in Ky. if and when those thing happen here.

[Skipper]

One thing we need to be clear on. The things Bellar was convicted on in Indiana pertained to violations of the Lacy Act. That is, he was selling "Wildlife" across state lines which has been illegal for a long time. At the time Bellar was caught, deer and elk, even captive ones were considered "Wildlife" in Indiana. Shortly after he was caught, some legislator pals of Bellar presented a bill to the Indiana Legislature to declare captive deer and elk "Livestock". Had that been the case when Bellar was caught, he wouldn't have been convicted of what he was convicted of.

That said, in 2002, KALA, Lou, and the cervid farmers here managed to get the Kentucky Legislature to declare captive deer and elk "Livestock". As such, what Bellar was convicted of IS legal in Kentucky. You can't violate the lacy act with cattle, hogs, chickens or deer and elk in Kentucky because all are labeled as "Livestock". If you take into account that Lou and his friends have managed to change that portion of Kentucky law and are now seeking laxed regulation on the importation of cervids, and more permits for more cervid facilities, I don't believe it takes 3 rocket scientists and a box of slide rules to figure out what they have in mind.

Skipper

[daking]

Skipper, you are correct, but I believe that there are some nuances of the law that the KALA people have not yet considered in attempting to circumvent the Lacy act.

[String Music]

The Lacey Act makes it illegal to partake in the trade of fish, wildlife, or plants taken in violation of any U.S. or Indian tribal law, treaty, or regulation as well as the trade of any of these items acquired through violations of foreign law. In other words, the person must break the law first before it's a Lacey violation. Bellar did this in many different ways. Ky. farmers could still break the laws as well, and likely be charge with a Lacey Act violation, depending on if they can prove the animal is one that was never in the wild? Maybe they could prove that, maybe they can't???

Bellar violated Lacey because he violated state laws. This sealed his fate. Same could happen here easy enough.


Fenced Deer Farm Raided - Federal and state officials took records from a hunting preserve called Bellar's Place
by George McLaren
george.mclaren@indystar.com

Authorities and owners confirmed that federal and state wildlife officials raided Indiana's largest private hunting preserve and confiscated its business records. Assistant U.S. Attorney Donald Schmid of South Bend said the raids involved no arrests, but he would provide no additional details. "As part of the federal investigation, we executed three search warrants at three separate locations in Miami County," Schmid said. He declined to say whether any federal indictments had been issued or would be forthcoming.


Peru developer and deer farmer Russ Bellar said three raids occurred at 6:00 a.m. at his preserve, his home, and his office. "I have no clue what they're looking for. This is all political stuff, that's all it is," said Bellar, who has been operating a fenced hunting preserve known as Bellar's Place for several years and is a board member of the Indiana Deer Farmers Association. "They took everything I had pertaining to deer--pictures, records, everything," he said.

State conservation officers assisted U.S. Fish and Wildlife officials in the raid. A spokesman for the state Department of Natural Resources declined to comment. Brad Thurston, a deer farmer, and another board member of the state deer farming group said the probe may involve the federal Lacey Act, which makes it illegal to buy, sell, transport, or possess wildlife in violation of state law.


"It could only be instigated by the state. The feds wouldn't instigate it. They wouldn't have any reason, unless a state law was violated," said Thurston, an Indianapolis surgeon, who is a board member of the North American Deer Farming Association.


DNR officials have said it's unlawful to sell specific animals to be hunted. Deer preserve operators have maintained they can charge "trespassing" or guiding fees to make such hunts legal. Bellar says he charges "bed and breakfast" fees to hunters. His business is by far the largest deer farming operation in Indiana, boasting on its web site of having more than one deer per acre on the 1,100 acre fenced spread. Bellar's state application to keep a captive deer last year reported he owned 1,267 deer, with some valued up to $20,000.


The company invites hunters to enjoy a four star lodge while using heated deer stands, telling prospective clients they can "see more bucks in one day than most people see in a lifetime."


The issue of fenced hunting preserves has proven controversial in recent years. Backed by large political contributions from deer farmers, some state legislators have sought to expand legal rights of private preserves, which currently can offer deer hunts only under regular state approved rules and seasons.


Wildlife and sportsmen's groups have fought against such proposals, and last year all sides agreed to mediate the issues in a committee. A panel of deer farmers, wildlife experts and sporting representatives, along with DNR and state animal health officials, has been meeting for several months on the issues.
Committee members toured Bellar's Place last Fall. Bellar said the raids followed years of criticism from state officials. "They are against what I do," he said. "They are against anyone who raises white tail deer. They hate us with a passion."