9th District Federation LKS [Archive] - Kentucky Hunting Forums

Taxi Mike

10-05-2005, 05:22 PM

I too would be interested in knowing what the petition specifically states. There are law suits and initiatives over this debacle going on in various states.

They pit farmers against hunters give credence to animal rights rhetoric and everyone looses.

Consider these facts:

Lack of respect for private property and property rights is a pitfall conservationist need to be very wary of.

Animals are more easily tame by food than by enclosures.

There are high fences around many management areas, and govt facilities that allow hunting.

A high fence for rabbits is 3 foot and beagle field trials are a form of hunting.

Would the same reasoning and initiative by anti's follow and similarly outlaw 4H pig or sheep catching events (If you've ever seen it "It's the ultimate fair chase!")

Or what about those big mean cowboys on big fast horses chasing that poor little cow around an arena for fun and prizes

On the Flip side you have Montana finally reopening their buffalo "hunt" that the commission canceled after the governor expressed concern about potential damage to Montana's reputation. Concerns from who. Animal Rightists that oppose all animal use. Kentuckian hunters legislating the shooting of bison on KY farms or "managing private deer herds" by the same legitimate means the we use to "harvest" them in parks, woodlots and food plots, sounds like an open door invite to come here and mess with us while we are busy picking on each other!

LoweBow

10-05-2005, 08:13 PM

At a time when we all see what is happening and the fight that is looming on the Legislative horizon between KDFWR and KALA ...... some of the Commission members have taken it upon themselves to pick on a few of the sportsmans organizations. It was no coincidence the Legue was asked at the last Commission meeting to submit their stance on High Fenced Hunting and also Cervid Ranching.

At a time when ALL sporting organizations need to be as united as they could possibly be ..........I fear they are as divided as they have ever been.

Oh yeah....BTW ....More details please.

Multidigits

10-05-2005, 08:21 PM

...... some of the Commission members have taken it upon themselves to pick on a few of the sportsmans organizations.........More details please.

Send more details on who got picked on??? I must have slept through that one :confused:

I'm fairly sure the questions asked of the LKS were in response to one persons comments on this forum, not the LKS itself?

WBBP

10-05-2005, 10:05 PM

The questions were generated during an initial discussion about the BBBC. The League was asked to give a position on Ky's QDM program for deer, Ky's Elk restoration Program, and later asked to give a position on High Fence Hunting or canned hunts.

Not sure what is divisive about asking a group to take a stand. If you aren't going to take a position on issues that involve KY sportsmen, then why even exist.

schuyler olt

10-06-2005, 08:18 AM

We, as ethical hunters, must always be vigilant that unethical hunting does not enter our sport. High fence hunting can be ethical if it truly amounts to fair chase. I've hunted turkeys on high fence operations in Texas where somebody could hunt for a week and never get a shot.

But what we saw occur in Indiana on that evidence tape is deplorable. Our Commission must take steps to safeguard against these practices, because these types of activities hold all of us up to ridicule and contempt by the general public. And ultimately, that general public has the power to end hunting altogether if it gets motivated.

If the Commission won't act, then I think we need to seriously ponder taking it to the legislature. Don't forget, last year we worked to form a Sportsmen's Caucus for the specific purpose of creating a strong legislative voice, one that will help us let the public know who we are and what our heritage is all about.

Make no mistake--I am not speaking out against cervid ranching or high fence hunting. I am saying very simply that fair chase must be the absolute rule, regardless of where it occurs.

9th Fair Chase Hunter

10-06-2005, 08:34 AM

You are all correct we need to be united, but we go after fellow fairchase hunters over what type of achery equipment we chose. we argue in-line verses side hammer, riffle over shotgun ect.
A highfence hunt on a turkey is a non-issue unless the turkey has had his wings clipped so he is unable to fly over the fence.
We are talking about putting Deer and Elk in a 3 to 6 acre inclosure that is designed so they can not get away and selling someone a garanteed kill on that animal and calling it hunting. We as hunters must try to safegaurd the public image of our sport because 75% of the population of our state do not hunt 50% are neither hunter nor anti-hunter but if they think that all hunters support and practise this type of unethical killing we could lose them to the anti's.
We do not wish to stop deer farmers from raising deer selling sheds meet hides ect. we do want to stop the 20 or 30 that sell canned hunts.

Taxi Mike

10-06-2005, 09:34 AM

High fence and Fair chase is a slippery slope brought to us by the AR community. It muddies the water and causes us to freely consider their premis that: "Some animal use is unacceptable!"

Now here is the rub! We all agree that "they are correct"! "Some animal use is not "all" right.

But we should be very careful to take that statement and run with it willy nilly through our house "cleaning up our act" so that others won't come in and do it for us! Lest we invite others to do the same to us!

We as "hunters" should define what we are and what we do and leave it at that. Webster's describes us and "those that pursue wild game" and describe game as; "wild animals hunted for sport or food." So "canned hunting" is a not a plausible tem any more than "equating hunters and poachers". If it's canned it's not hunting!

Now before we open the "moral issue" box, which is what the anti's love to see happen, we should consider that if it is immoral and or by hunters decree illegal to shoot a penned up animal, We should consider the fact that everyday all across America and throughout the commonwealth it is common practice. It's called meat production and is a common agricultural practice.

As hunters declaring that a 6 acre pen is too small for the slaughter of an animal is immoral and should be illegal siding with the anti's on the cruelty of putting a farm raised deer, buffalo or big brown eyed cow into a squeeze chute and shooting it?

Consider the big gray area we cast a shadow over with this as well! This press release came out a couple weeks back:

Montana Reinstates Bison Hunt
The Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Commission has approved two new bison hunting seasons; running from Nov. 15-Jan. 15, and another from Jan. 16-Feb. 15. Due to the controversial nature of this hunt, hunters will be required to undergo a training course to prepare them for killing one of the animals and possible encounters with protesters and the media

The hunt as planned would allow up to 25 bison to be taken during each of the two sessions. Of the 50 total either-sex licenses, 24 will still be up for grabs; 16 licenses will be allocated to tribes in the state and 10 were issued previously for an abbreviated hunt that the commission canceled after the governor expressed concern about potential damage to Montana's reputation. (Source: Helena Independent Record)

Guess who created the concern? And concern over what? The moral issues of shooting noble beasts or the moral issues of shooting docile creatures? Take your pick?

Thank goodness the Montana Governor finally "cowboyed up" and brought his constituency to the reality that it is acceptable to exercise animal control and animal slaughter. The training the "hunters" received was how to not overreact and speak to the real subject less they ineptly feed the press what the anti's want the general public to hear a hunter say!

Multidigits

10-06-2005, 10:53 AM

I'll go on record as saying thatI'm against any effort to by-pass the Commission and take soemthing like this to the Legislature and hope that the non-hunting law makers can get it right. I'd have seriuos doubts that it would end up being a pro-hunting move to do so.

schuyler olt

10-06-2005, 01:48 PM

Multi,

I agree that the Commission should be the first place to address the issue. If they don't act, I don't think we should drop it there, however.

And, because of the "dual" regulation between the KDFWR and Ag, it's possible that legislative action would be required. I don't know the answer to that, but it's something to keep in mind.

Taxi,

I'm not clear where you're coming from. To me, the concept of fair chase is what seperates "hunting" from "slaughter." Growing up in farming, I certainly know the difference. And "fair chase" is almost purely ethical in nature. What is fair to one person may not be fair to another. Baiting deer is a classic example of that.

What Jimmy Huston did was terrible--his viewers would have been led to believe he was really hunting this nice buck and, the viewers' simply watching his show would have put money in his pocket through ads, promotional fees, etc.

Developing a legal definition of a "canned hunt" is going to be tough. Do you go with minimum acreage? Do you include doping the animal? Do you include put-and-take birds? I'm sure there are many more questions that folks will raise.

The bottom line to me is that if you are teaching a child to kill game and you are not teaching them the ethics of hunting, then you are not teaching them hunting.

Birdman

10-06-2005, 02:02 PM

The dept. does not control these farmers, according to X-chairman Hensley. This summer, the league passed a resolution asking the dept. to create a fair-chase reg. I was told at the July committee meeting to approach the legislature and have this group (cervid farmers) placed back in the hands of FWL.

According to several members of the commission, we only have four shooting preserves. I have heard nothing concerning these operations good or bad. Everthing has been addressed to a group of farmers that according to KDFWL Commission, they have no control over.

As for the league being involved, several years ago, we worked with the commission and agriculture to develop safe guards against CWD entering Ky. The Governor put in place an Executive Order that still stands. Until something changes with the science, the league will continue to back the Governor's Order.

In my opinion, all the discussion on this topic, and energy spent with petitions, etc. would be better spent working to improve the league and bringing other groups closer to the league.

There was a task force formed a few years ago, in which the league had a seat on. At that time I was under the impression the task at hand was to develop regs. in which both the farmer and the dept. could live with. For some reason, this went south.

Now whether these farms cease to exist or there's certain guidelines they must work under, we need to put this one to rest, PERIOD.

Taxi Mike

10-06-2005, 03:25 PM

On the issue of "fair chase", I agree with SKY that we can only address the subject as a philosophical topic and not as a definition of an activity or something that can be reasonable legislated. I have spoken to those that say that it would only be "fair chase" if we gave the deer guns as well".

The issues as I see them are:
How is it that urban sprawl can encircle herds of deer trapping them into the confines of parks or other small plots. Quickly they become desensitized to daily human activity, smells and noise and hunger induces them to feed in spite of close proximity of humans, cars and etc. As they adapt and multiply or simply eat away their cover and become over bearing pests folks calling themselves "sportsmen" leap at the opportunity to rectify the situation as heroes of conservation. Yet the same individuals might on another day get together and call for a cease and desist of hunting behind any high fence enclosure no mater the size, population density or lack of regular human intervention? We do this totally ignoring the fact that many public lands currently hunted have high fences around them. Not bothering with the details that the anti's will certainly not overlook.

How is it that archers commissioned studies to prove the number of wounded animals that survived and how efficiently and humanely a properly placed broadhead harvested a deer, and called for all hunters to support them against anti attacks as they would only be the beginning of the end, and then those same archers massed to stop others from having reasonable opportunity to use the same broadhead because it might be more efficiently placed by lesser skilled hands if launched by a crossbow?

Should we roll back the times to when birddogs were either born great or did not hunt. When there were no captive birds, launching devices, harnesses etc to "train and develop a would be lifelong hunting companion.

We argue the inline vs. sidelock muzzleloader as a valid tool for our "primitive weapon season" and then get into an SUV with our ATV equipped with a GPS, gortex, scentlock, heat packs, 2 way radios, and head out to our food plots and climb into our tree stands feeling better about our purer more challenging ways.

We proclaim the health values of venison over beef yet stifle the potential for the masses to partake through the ancient human practice of domestication or farming of deer, elk and other so called wild creatures. Does caging or fencing an animal make it less wild? All experienced animal handlers will tell you it will not. Gain an animals confidence through food, if you want to defeat it's instincts. Could this be why baiting has become the most popular hunting device since gun powder? Whoops baiting is probably tens of thousands of years older than gunpowder. Natural?

I'm not pointing any fingers via the above statements,facts or questions. For I proudly admit that I have been a practitioner of most legitimate; hunting, many farming and thousands of other animal use activities. I'm simply pointing to the fact that: It seems that the most consistent and truly natural thing about hunting these days is the natural tendency of humans to seek out a scapegoat or offer up something, (other than ones self) as a sacrifice to appease the gods and cleanse the conscience!

"And that ain't fair!"

Taxi Mike

10-06-2005, 04:01 PM

While I agree what Jimmy Huston allegedly did was terrible.... I must ask:
If the issue is over Jimmy Huston why aren't we calling for a ban on the Outdoor channel.

Hopefully we realize that the AR's were able to put enough pressure on Hollywood that all movies and most TV shows must certify that "no animals were harmed in the production of this movie." (Meanwhile they kill maim and violate humans everyway imaginable!)

Now that off my chest I'd also point out that I can hardly stand to watch more than ten minutes of TV hunting shows at one sitting which usually includes 4 commercials. Yet the outdoor channel has introduced hunting to a whole new population and created a significant increased revenue for wildlife.

"I stated allegedly did" since Huston was not prosecuted and to my knowledge Russ Bellar is in jail so there is legislation in place against what transpired.

However I'd be all about a petition from the league to the outdoor network banning Jimmy Huston and shooting of drugged animals though I have also heard the animal was actually more incapacitated from having been gored by another deer and was being put down, as terminal, so "Huston propped the shot". But anyway I would also sign a league petition to the various sponsors of the show and send a message to these guys that we want real TV hunting or at least honesty in outdoor TV.

Ever wonder how many fish were caught on camera because of some assistance that we as anglers don't have. Or how many of the photos in our favorite magazines are staged or in enclosures? The bottom line is we cannot legislate ethics as effectively as we can apply economic pressure. Patronize and support positive experiences in line with your views and disassociate with those that are not. I doubt there is a real market for shooting drugged deer in 1 acre pens, other than by a few unethical media moguls out for a quick buck! (no pun intended)

9th Fair Chase Hunter

10-07-2005, 08:19 AM

schuyler olt

10-07-2005, 09:11 AM

I think Taxi touches on a valid point, which is the impact of the outdoor industry on the outdoor way of life.

We enjoy the outdoors, and each of us looks for new ways to enjoy it. We like our gadgets, doo-dads and what-nots.

We come at it from different directions, too. Some of us are traditionalists, some of us are into the latest and greatest technology. Some of us hunt for trophies, some of us could care less whether we kill a 150 class deer. That distinction is probably easiest to see when we talk about muzzleloader season. It began when our deer herd was small, and was intended as a hunter opportunity to do things "the old way." Of course, it didn't take the industry long to ramp up frontloading technology, creating a market that before didn't exist. I'm not saying that was wrong, because the sales demonstrate that's what the consumers wanted, and giving consumers what they want is a hallmark of capitalism.

We've seen that bleed over into every aspect of hunting. A good box or slate call will last generations, but each year we see those basics tinkered with from the premise that it will make killing turkeys easier. New camo patterns emerge every year from the established manufacturers like Realtree, Mossy Oak, etc. Do we really need them? Probably not. Over the years they've discontinued patterns that some think are better than what is marketed today. But we enjoy buying them, so creating new stuff each year isn't a bad thing.

But somewhere along the line we reach a point where the line is about to be crossed. We see a push-button electronic turkey caller hit the market, and we need to stop and think what this means to the resource, the heritage, the future of the artisans who craft calls. Is it a shift in our attitude from wanting first to hunt to putting "harvesting" as the top priority? That's just one example.

We've become a success at all costs society. I see it in the world of hunting, too. I've met many people over the years, and I seem to see more now than ever before, who absolutely stress out over the prospect of eating tag soup. Let's face it--if I want to eat cheaply, hunting is NOT the way to go. It's about the enjoyment derived from the activity. You don't need to be a scratch golfer to enjoy golf. Similarly, you don't need a wall of trophies or a freezer full of meat to enjoy hunting.

Look at your hunting pictures sometime and think--did you enjoy killing the deer in the photo as much as you enjoyed being with the friend who took the photo? To me, that's what it's really all about.

Multidigits

10-07-2005, 10:23 AM

Taxi Mike

10-07-2005, 11:38 AM

Multidgits the whole reason we are at this point is that a proposal by LKS to the commission that would restrict the acreage for these PENS (to 200 acre min) was met with the news that the Legislature at the suggestion of KFB insurance had declare this as alternative farming and put the DEPT Of AG inthe mix calling these animals "Livestock" instead of "wildlife". WE do not think that they got it right and so they are the ones that will have to change it.

9 FCH: The reality is: not all creature of the same species are "Wild" life. We have domestic and "feral" hogs. We have free range Bison and farm raised Bison. Wild quail and domestic meat stock as well as those that are released but not recognized as "wild".

AR's try constantly to have "wild" animals released from their jails we call zoos. We in fact know these animals were held in "captivity" for generations. They are no longer considered as in captivity and Zoos now refer to them as zoo stock and so does much legislation.

Folks talk about not being able to turn back the clock and therefore accepting what we have but putting the brakes on further encroachment/development. That's a tough one. Consider that the whitetails brother Mr. reindeer has been domesticated for eions, Most "wild species of turkeys of today were reintroduced or suplemented from those domesticated by the Native American Tribes. There are far more domestic species of fox and mink than wild. And there would not be wildlife in Africa had it not been for Private preserves, and would not be any wildlife in much of the world were it not for the multifactied ecconomical encentives of public and private use.

Best Regards

BUCKHEAVEN

10-07-2005, 03:45 PM

Multidgits the whole reason we are at this point is that a proposal by LKS to the commission that would restrict the acreage for these PENS (to 200 acre min) was met with the news that the Legislature at the suggestion of KFB insurance had declare this as alternative farming and put the DEPT Of AG inthe mix calling these animals "Livestock" instead of "wildlife". WE do not think that they got it right and so they are the ones that will have to change it.

If you look in the KDFWR regulations there is already a regulation that requires game preserves to have a minimum of 300 acres. I am surprised that you were not advised of that issue by the KDFWR even before the LKS passed the resolution to approve 200 acre minimum for game preserve.

The KDFWR has also passed a regulation that prohibits the restocking of the game preserves with any hoofed animal. This action will basically put the game preserves out of business. Not to mention scaring the private property owners of cattle and other hoofed animal.

If the sportsman (LKS) continues to follow blindly the policies and agendas of the RMF, NWF and the individuals pushing their policies, things will get worse for the sportsman instead of better and the relationships developed with private property owners will gradually disappear.

I see much more to gain by working together with all sportsman groups than fighting constantly and not taking care of the real problems.

9th Fair Chase Hunter

10-07-2005, 03:46 PM

The bottom line is that those who stand to proffit from this practice will never support efforts to stop it.
Not all hunters will agree on it but my reserch shows 95% of hunters agree that you should not be able to hunt deer and elk like that.
Our Petition will not ask the legislature to outlaw deer farms, It will not stop real hunters from hunting a farm with a three strand barbed wire fence on it, it ask that the Dept of fish and wildlife be able to regulate the hunts.
I know this is not what some of you want to hear but the petition is out there and we will be sending it to all the gun stores and sporting goods stores , archery shops , and gun clubs , taxidermist ect, that we can and let the hunters decide if they want to sign it or not.
If we do not get any signatures then I guess the issue will be dropped, however if we do get a significant number of signatures then I think the legislators will have a choice to make as to whether they want to side with the cervid farmer who sells the hunts or the Hunters who spend millions of dollars a year and who vote.

Multidigits

10-07-2005, 04:04 PM

I would hope that before you sent anything out to go to the Legislature as an affiliate of the LKS that you would get board approval on it first??????????

And hopefully, the board will see this for what it is--trouble, and head it off at the pass. I guess it's too late for that, but I'd like the LKS Directors to look into it.

I know I'll not support it, and urge the Director from the 4th to do the same. As I explained from the start when contacted privately by Skip, that this is a dangerous bit of business to embark on. In my opinion, not much planning has gone into this and it's consequences.

Taxi Mike

10-07-2005, 04:26 PM

9FCH

If your research show 95% of all hunters support it why not put out a petition with 2 columns 1 for and 1 against and give "fair chase to the issue"? It seems like a single option petition is sort of a "canned" way to get what you are pursuing.

Of course even then you could bait the field simply by the way you word the issues which are actually way more than for or against?

Against what? If I read it correctly you are saying that no deer or elk should be shot behind any high fence? Presumably this yould include the big one with the barbed wire on top at Blue Grass Army Depot or Ballard County WMA.

What about the elk, deer and bison at the game farm? When they take the excess of them to slaughter should they be required to strangle them?

BUCKHEAVEN

10-08-2005, 08:13 PM

RMF, NWF, PETA, GREEN PEACE, the use of imminante domain laws by companies againts individuals, anti- gun groups all threaten private property rights and individuals rights.

Now their is a group counting how many dogs you have in a kennel and checking how big your yard is to see if you are allowed to keep the dogs!!

Has anyone come to your house yet?

OH it wont be long the 9th district fair chase hunter will be by your house next with a petition to take farmers rights away BY DECLARING THAT THE FARMERS PRIVATE LIVESTOCK, PUBLIC PROPERTY AND IMPOSING ADDITIONAL REGULATIONS. THE REST OF THE PETITION IS SOME TYPE OF SECRET.

YOU BETTER HIDE YOUR GOLD FISH BECAUSE HE WILL PROBABLY COUNT THEM TOO!!

LoweBow

10-10-2005, 11:14 AM

Make sure you send that petition to Pape's Archery. Pape's is the largest distributer of archery hunting equip in the state. (Nation? can't remember?)
Anyways. I'm sure the ol' Fred Pape would be really interested after spending mint$$$$ on his enclosure fencing for his private hunting preserve down in Meade County.

9th Fair Chase Hunter

10-10-2005, 01:56 PM

We the Sportsmen and women of Kentucky having become aware of the practice of some cervid (whitetail deer and elk) famers of selling so called hunts for their animals in SMALL High Fence Pens, Would like to express our outrage at this practice and the fact that it is allowed to go on in Kentucky.
It is our understanding that this is only possible because these Whitetail deer and elk are classified as Livestock by the Kentucky State Legislature and as Voters we would ask that our Senators and Representatives take action to Amend this classificationand make it illegal to hunt deer or elk inside a high fence , It is our belief that all hunting in Ky should be fair chase and should be controlled by the KDFWR.

Name address date

1.________________________________________________ ____
2.________________________________________________ ____
3.________________________________________________ ____
4.________________________________________________ ____
5.________________________________________________ ____
6.________________________________________________ ____
7.________________________________________________ ____
8.________________________________________________ ____
9.________________________________________________ ____
10._______________________________________________ ____
11._______________________________________________ ____
12._______________________________________________ ____
13._______________________________________________ ____
14._______________________________________________ ____
15._______________________________________________ ____
16._______________________________________________ ____
17._______________________________________________ ____
18________________________________________________ ____
19._______________________________________________ ____
20._______________________________________________ ____
21._______________________________________________ ____
22._______________________________________________ ____
23._______________________________________________ ____
24._______________________________________________ ____
25._______________________________________________ ____
26._______________________________________________ ____
27._______________________________________________ ____
28._______________________________________________ ____
29._______________________________________________ ____
30._______________________________________________ ____

Please feel free to run copies and get as many signatures as possible then mail to : P.O. Box 1443 London Ky 40743

damon kustes

10-10-2005, 07:07 PM

You should be ashamed of yourself .You are going down the wrong road here. These farmers are just trying to make a living. . they have invested a lot of money to raise deer/elk for a market spawned by the hunting community itself ...

Your elitist fair chase attitude will not serve you when your time comes to defend your actions against the Animal Rightest.

You will then have to stand alone against them .

BUCKHEAVEN

10-10-2005, 09:04 PM

If You Look Like Peta And Smell Like Peta You Should Join Peta And Go Hug A Tree. Make Sure Its On YOUR Property Because Anyone With Private Property Would Be A Fool To Let You Hug A Tree On Their Private Property.

I Guess Your Next Step Is To Ban Hunting On High Fence Public Property. Are You Following Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation Policy Statement AGAINTS HIGH Fences? SMALL PENS NOW BIG ONES LATER.

I DONT CARE IF YOU HUG A TREE ON YOUR PROPERTY BUT DONT TELL ME WHAT I CAN OR CANT DO ON MY PRIVATE PROPERTY.

OVER 90% OF KENTUCKY IS PRIVATE PROPERTY AND THE REAL GOOD SPOTS HAVE FARMS. SO GO AHEAD SCREW IT UP FOR ALL SPORTSMAN AND INSULT THE FARMER.

Taxi Mike

10-11-2005, 09:46 AM

http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif The petition
We, mind"some" of the most closed minded Sportsmen and women of Kentucky having become aware of the practice of some cervid (whitetail deer and elk) famers of selling their privately owned livestock, according to legislation passed by the people of the Commenwealth in situations that may closely resemble some management practices, that we have fooled the public into believing as "acceptable management practices" in what we chose to call and not specificly identify. lest we in some way restrict what we like to do, as SMALL High Fenced Pens, would like to express our outrage at this practice and the fact that it is allowed to go on in Kentucky.

It is our understanding that this is only possible because these Whitetail deer and elk are classified as Livestock by the Kentucky State Legislature and as a few Voters we would ask that our Senators and Representatives take action to Amend this classification and make it illegal to "hunt or other wise harvest" deer or elk inside a (meaning any and all) high fence. It is our belief that all hunting in Ky should be "fair chase" as the legislature will need to define in order for this to be a sound law so, we ask that you that serve all of your constituents to only ask the under signed below and not to poll our advarsaries lest they go too far and restric what we like to do. We further ask that all of this should be controlled by the KDFWR as they are the only department within the Dept of Commerce that we want to know about our restricting valid ecconomical practices and putting tax paying businesses onto the welfare rolls"

Name address date

1._Mr. I think with my heart not my head________________ ____
2._Ms. I hate all animal use and encourage any fighting in the ranks ____
3._Mrs. I understand the need to kill so long as I'm not ask to choose_
4._Mr. I love to hunt and have been told to "protect" my sport but have not been given anything constructive to do so I'll take this path.
5. Mr. and Mrs. We hunt for fun but also to stroke our ego's and feel deflated to see that someone else bought a deer larger than the one we worked so hard to tame by bait, and outwhit by defeating all of a deers natural defenses, and fear people will not accept our accomplishment for what we see it to be!

Skipper

10-11-2005, 06:53 PM

Tom,

I don't understand you at all.

First of all, the 9th District Federation doesn't have to ask for full league approval in this matter, although we would hope the league would be on our side. The 9th District Federation serves sportsmen in the 9th District and we are a member of the League. I have not talked to a single sportsman in the 9th District that once they understand what we are trying to prevent thinks we are wrong in doing so. Be it that you, and your district may be opposed to us, so be it. That's the way the ball bounces.

Secondly, We have already asked the KDFWR to add the regulation through the League vote and league policy development to force these "Hunts" taking place on these cervid ranches to take place in pens of no less than 200 acres and without the use of any sort of drugs. Plain and simple, as long as captive cervids in Kentucky are legally classified as Livestock and not Wildlife, the KDFWR has no more authority over them than they do cattle. Also, the last I checked, the KDFWR can not make law in the state of Kentucky, the Legislature does that. The Legislature will have to be the one to change the law back to classify deer and elk as wildlife.

We also need to get something perfectly clear that the Deer farmers on here seem to be confused about. We are working on Deer and Elk. We are not attempting to nor are considering any sort of law that affects cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, turkey, buffalo or any other animal. This is stricly a deer and elk issue. John Q public knows the difference between a cow and a deer, and we do as well. John Q public considers Deer to be wildlife and Cattle to be livestock. It's silly IMO to try to convince people that we are after "Livestock". We are after reclaiming the name Wildlife for deer and elk so that they can be treated as such.

Personally, I hope we are successful, but I fear we won't be. The Cervid Farmers in Kentucky are far more politically connected than any group I have ever been aquainted with. I have been around Kentucky long enough to know that the ones with the clout do whatever it is that they want to do, and the rest of us are expected to like it. Well, I'm sorry, guys, but I really don't like the idea of putting a deer in a dog lot and shooting it and calling it hunting. It just isn't right, and I hope to be helpful in making that illegal.

Skipper

Taxi Mike

10-12-2005, 09:44 AM

Skipper:

Generalizing things and coming to a specific conclusion that putting deer in a dog pen, shooting and calling it hunting! Is exactly what most folks don't understand! How can you use such unreal logic and expect it to be valid in LAW.

That type of trash law is what leads to issues going to court and having courts interpret a broad spectrum of issues. Not just moral issues of shooting deer in dog pens but "moral issues of shooting deer(period)!"

It's not about murder or sex when it gets to court. It's about a glove fitting or the definition of "is". Moral responsible people have wised up and know that even the most specific and exact laws can be twisted by the courts. And if you don't think the Anti's have a huge budget set aside for screwing with the system in court you haven't been paying attention.

It's not a matter of folks not respecting the 9ths concerns it's a matter of being concerned about the "actual outcome of good intentions". My grandmother often sited the "road to hell was paved with them"!

BUCKHEAVEN

10-12-2005, 10:34 AM

Hello Skipper,

I received a call today from an LKS member from the 9th. He told me you had a bunch sportsman at the meeting from your district opposing your petition. I heard you had a good discussion for three hours. That’s good maybe someday we will understand that we all want what is best for the hunter in Kentucky.

I can’t see why you are so upset about domesticated elk and deer farms as privately owned livestock. We have health control of our livestock, we have much better genetics than you can imagine and it’s a business that gives all Kentuckians a chance to make a buck. Not a bad thing around Kentucky.

You are simply going to extremes in demanding what a farmer can do with his or her private property. We are not talking about public property we are talking about raising domesticated animals on private property.

This baloney you keep stating that farmers drug the animals to hunt them. You must get a hold of your self. Why would a farmer want to drug an animal that comes to the trough running anyways? And why would you say that about your neighbors? Are any of your neighbors doing what you are claiming? Do you know anyone in Kentucky that is drugging animals and shooting them for a hunt?

It is not right Skipper to defame your neighbor when you know it is not true! The Kentucky cervid farmer is working hard like any other farmer and you must stop with the allegations that you know are not true.

Find one farmer in Kentucky that is drugging hunting and killing an animal like you are suggesting. Just one please anywhere in Kentucky. Even in the 9th district.

Taxi Mike

10-12-2005, 10:37 AM

The Cervid Farmers in Kentucky are far more politically connected...

We also need to get something perfectly clear that the Deer farmers on here seem to be confused about. We are working on Deer and Elk. We are not attempting to nor are considering any sort of law that affects cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, turkey, buffalo or any other animal. This is stricly a deer and elk issue. John Q public knows the difference between a cow and a deer, and we do as well. John Q public considers Deer to be wildlife and Cattle to be livestock. It's silly IMO to try to convince people that we are after "Livestock". We are after reclaiming the name Wildlife for deer and elk so that they can be treated as such.

Skipper:
The issues, the farmers, and us are all connected!

Wonder why the cervid farmers are politicly connected?

It's because farmers think of them as farmers.

Kentucky is a farm state!

Call KY farm bureau as them to quote you their writen policies:
on the right to farm,
on alternative live stock,
on deer and elk,
on game laws and regulations,
on private property rights.

Farmers have sat down and concluded all of these and other issues!

My friend "we" need to understand that the guys we depend upon to host, feed and tolorate "our deer" are getting fed up with our pompas attitudes. They out number us, they our weigh us in ecconomics, legislature and public sympathy.

And by the way some of them are us! So be very careful about shoving a petition in folks faces. In fact once submitted those petitions become public property and farmers know who their friends are!

Taxi Mike

10-12-2005, 10:45 AM

Deer farmers on here seem to be confused about. We are working on Deer and Elk. We are not attempting to nor are considering any sort of law that affects cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, turkey, buffalo or any other animal. This is stricly a deer and elk issue. John Q public knows the difference between a cow and a deer, and we do as well. John Q public considers Deer to be wildlife and Cattle to be livestock. It's silly IMO to try to convince people that we are after "Livestock". We are after reclaiming the name Wildlife for deer and elk

Skipper:

I'm honestly not picking I posted the issues seperate to clarify points vs generalize.

If we are reclaiming the name wildlife why just for deer and elk?

Bison are wildlife or haven't you seen the posting re: Montana Bison hunt?

We hunt feral hogs in KY and cows are open season on Taylorsville WMA.

Turkeys????????? You'll lose the support of 100,000 NWTF folks if you leave them out!

How is it that a Big horn sheep or Mt. Goat in a dog pen doesn't make the grade?

I wouldn't bring this all of this up if I weren't intersted in coming to a valid conclusion. It is still a matter of thinking with our heads not our hearts!

Skipper

10-12-2005, 11:21 AM

I received a call today from an LKS member from the 9th. He told me you had a bunch sportsman at the meeting from your district opposing your petition. I heard you had a good discussion for three hours. That’s good maybe someday we will understand that we all want what is best for the hunter in Kentucky.

I'm sure that some of our newly aquired 20 or so cervid farmer members gave you a full report, and I'm fairly sure they don't agree with the rest of us.

Farmers have sat down and concluded all of these and other issues!

My friend "we" need to understand that the guys we depend upon to host, feed and tolorate "our deer" are getting fed up with our pompas attitudes. They out number us, they our weigh us in ecconomics, legislature and public sympathy.

You must have the false opinion that you are talking to someone without an agriculture background. Someone who doesn't know the difference between production agriculture and hobby farming. Someone who doesn't know that less than 2% of the population in this country farms and 13.3% of Kentuckians are licensed hunters and fishermen. A 20 acre farm with 3 dozen deer on it is not, and never will be anywhere near a significant segment of agriculture production of food and fiber. Further, I would venture a guess that if the majority of non-cervid farmers were educated in the ins and outs of what is going on with these deer and elk, they too would never support it.

This baloney you keep stating that farmers drug the animals to hunt them. You must get a hold of your self. Why would a farmer want to drug an animal that comes to the trough running anyways?

Lou,

According to Brook, who I suspect is the new member who called to tell you what I said at the meeting, The only way your "Livestock" can be slaughtered is shoot them because they are so wild that they can not be brought into handling facilities or squeeze shoots because their natural inbred wildness won't tolerate it. I wish you all would tell the same story twice in a row.

Skipper

BUCKHEAVEN

10-12-2005, 03:20 PM

Lou,

According to Brook, who I suspect is the new member who called to tell you what I said at the meeting, The only way your "Livestock" can be slaughtered is shoot them because they are so wild that they can not be brought into handling facilities or squeeze shoots because their natural inbred wildness won't tolerate it. I wish you all would tell the same story twice in a row.

Skipper[/quote]

Now Skipper,

You must come to my farm so I can show you the handling facility that I use. I have a drop chute, lanes, stalls everything a farmer needs to handle domesticated deer and elk. Brook has been at my facilities several times so I dont understand how he can tell you that. If you really want to learn come and visit my facility.

No weapons allowed!

Taxi Mike

10-12-2005, 03:39 PM

Points well made Skip!

The same small percentages pertain to hunters and archery hunters and to hobby hunters vs professionals.

And yet we are still able to "hunt" because it's reasonable and united we can make a stand that the legislators will listen to. So why would you presume that those same legislators won't listen to farmers?

As you observed "We will probably loose" so my point still stands since there seems to be nothing to gain "for hunters" and a heck of a lot to put at risk I'm still sold on prudence!

Skipper

10-12-2005, 04:00 PM

Lou,

I'm just going by what your people say themselves. If I've learned anything in this deal, it's that the words used by cervid farmers are like the spring weather in Kentucky, if you don't like what they just said, hang around in the conversation 5 more minutes, and they'll say it differently.

At the last meeting we had, the cervid farmers there told us a story about a Ford executive from Louisville who purchased a "hunt" on a buck for $15,000 which was sold to the harvesting facility by one of the people present at the meeting. At this meeting, they didn't seem to be able to recall telling us anything about any Ford executive.

We were told last night multiple times that the cervid farmers didn't want to be told by anyone how they could kill a deer that they owned. They said that slaughter could not be achieved by running the deer into a handling facility or squeeze shoot to kill it because of it's wild nature. They also said, multiple times that their deer were tame and bottle fed, and that they could lead them around like puppy dogs.

They also said multiple times that they could not make a living without selling the deer to harvest facilities. They also said several times that they didn't want the government telling them how that they could kill their own deer for slaughter. It seems odd to me that you would need to kill for slaughter your own deer when you can't make any money on it unless you arrange it so that someone else can kill your deer.

There is something else that just doesn't seem right to me as a person with an agricultural background and occupation. If, what you all say is correct, that you can not sell your deer, move your deer, and the costs to raise them are as expensive as they are. Not to mention that you all have to spend an inordinate amount of time running back and forth to Frankfort and to 9th District Federation meetings to keep the politics such that you can continue in this endeavor. Further, as they have stated, the investment requirement is so high for this kind of farming operation. Why in this world would anyone in their right mind get into this kind of farming?

My agricultural degree is from the University of Tennessee. While there doing my studies, I worked with and was exposed to dairies, tobacco farms, cattle backgrounders, tomato producers, pumpkin producers, chicken farms, hogs, and my other farming operations. Basically, every operation I observed or studied ran like a Swiss watch. Even back then most of the tobacco farms I observed averaged about 3200lbs per acre. When I came back to Kentucky, I found out that at least in this area, 2500 lbs is good and average is probably around 1700. But here nor there, of all the farmers I had contact with in Tennessee I only met 1 who had tried some off the wall enterprise hoping to strike it rich, and from what he told me, he never wanted to see another ostrich again after it had beat the door off of his $30,000 pickup truck. Here, we have all sorts of enterprises. Ostritches, Emus, Llama, and deer and elk. I’m sure there are the same in Tennessee as well, we just never herd much about them. However, the 1 ostrich guy I knew didn’t make his living on 7’ tall birds. The 1500 head of steers he was backgrounding and 400 head of hogs he was doing the same with were the money. I’m fairly sure that if he had to go to Nashville twice a week to raise ostriches, they’d have been somebody else’s ostriches long before they kicked the door in on his truck.

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