9th District Meeting

[Bowhunter10]

First I want to say I am proud to be affiliated with LKS and a LKS member. I applaud the LKS for attacking the corruption in Frankfort, in an effort to get the concerns of the sportsmen heard. I want to thank Mark Rogers, Ronnie Wells and all the leadership in the LKS for listening to the concerns of the cervid farmers. Regardless of the decision made in reference to cervid farming by LKS. I will support the league and its effort to make the sportsmen’s voice be heard. But I am appalled at the meeting held in London the 9th district. I found out about the meeting from a local farmer and fellow sportsmen that went in to London to get a hair cut. He was told there, that the LKS was having a meeting that night to put Deer Farmers out of business, and that they had invited several politicians. He found out at the meeting that it was to ban canned hunting. Of course the Bellar Tape was played, by whom I don’t know. The playing of this tape and telling my fellow sportsmen that myself and my family are criminals just like Bellar, I think is criminal. If that is not defamation of character I don’t know what is. Before the meeting started Jim Lane ask the director to ask the farmers not to attend the meeting, which he did. After some discussion the farmers and fellow sportsmen were aloud to attended the meeting. The farmers had a very calm exchange of facts pertaining to cervid farming.

In the meeting Jim Lane admitted that the Elk imported from now CWD infected states, was a mistake.

The farmers were ask to leave the LKS meeting so it’s members could discuss and vote on the issue in private. To ask a fellow sportsmen not to attend then ask them to leave so they could discuss in private issues that would affect them and their families I think is unacceptable. This request by the KDFWR employee Jim Lane proves that corruption is flourishing in the department. The KDFWR is telling the sportsmen that passing a canned hunt resolution will have no affect on cervid farming THIS IS A LIE. All I ask of the LKS is to play fair. Do not let the KDFWR, RMEF, or the NWF make false statements at LKS meetings. Make them show proof of each fact stated, and the cervid farmers will do the same.

If there are by laws of the LKS that does not allow sportsmen, who are not LKS members to attend a LKS meeting, than I request a moderator to send me a copy of such bylaws and delete this post. If not than I suggest that someone needs to be educated in the proper procedure in holding a LKS meeting and the discrimination of allowing some sportsmen to attend while requesting others to leave. I also suggest that the LKS take a look at its affiliation with the RMEF and the NWF. Both of these organizations openly admit that there goal is to take my private property rights and defame my character.



You cannot pick and choose when it comes to private property rights.

You can take mine now and they will take yours later.

PS. As an LKS member, I would like a copy of the resolution and the minutes of this meeting.

[Multidigits]

My comment at this point is that you need to learn the difference between action taken by a "Federation" and the "LKS". There is a big difference.

[Bowhunter10]

Don't the 9 district federations make up the League?

[elkguy]

This is the only response I will give to this post by Bowhunter10, so don't bother asking questions.

I was at the meeting in London, and it was a very civil exchange. Besides that, all of your other statements and "facts" are wrong. Jim Lane did not say bringing in the elk was "a mistake". The RMEF has never said that we want to take your property or defame your character. This issue is not on our radar screen right now. Our big issue is habitat. I was invited to the meeting about 2 days before it happened and just decided to attend at the last minute just as an observer. I provided an update of RMEF position statements and actions pertaining to game farming, and real facts about elk in KY, CWD, etc. Almost all of the information that the Deer farmers had about those issues was wrong and, as usual, based on conspiracy theories.

Corruption at KDFWR? Give me a break.

[Birdman]

Don't the 9 district federations make up the League?

The 9 district federation is one of 9 districts that make up the LKS. So no the 9th doesn't make up the league.


He was told there, that the LKS was having a meeting that night to put Deer Farmers out of business

The 9th district had a meeting not the LKS. The next LKS meeting is Oct. 7&8 in Lexington.

If I was a cervid farmer, I would show this tape anytime and anywhere I could get someone to watch. While at the same time, let them know that cirvid farming doesn't tolerate this type of active.

[Bowhunter10]

In reference to KDFWR corruption. Please tell us where Tom Bennett is presently employed.



This Post was sent to me in response to Elk Guy
My name is Brook Ping, I am a cervid farm and active sportsman. I was in
attendance at the 9th district meeting. I would like to comment on the prior
statements made of this meeting.
When I arrived I was met by Mr. Taylor Orr in the parking lot and was told
that Jim Lane did not want to get into a discussion about cervid farming
with myself or any other farmer at this meeting. I assured Mr. Orr that any
discussion would be civil and respectful to all in attendance. I told him it
was important for me to attend due to the fact, that the decisions being
made could affect my farming operation. He told me I could attend but would
be asked to leave after I spoke.
The meeting was very civil and many issues were raised. Mr. Jim Lane and the
RMEF representative both agreed that when they found out of the potential
CWD risk to Ky by importing elk it was stopped. I suppose it was not obvious
that CWD has been present out west for over 40 year! It is coincidental that
the stocking process was completed before they realized the potential
affects it might have. It was very obvious that the KDFWR & the RMEF is
using LKS to attack the cervid farmers due to the political power LKS holds.

I am very upset with the fact that KDFWR state employees are being used to
spread propaganda with a terrible video of someone in Indiana who broke the
LAW. I don’t appreciate being associated with this type of action. This is
equivalent of a poaching video being representative of hunters.
In closing I would like to say that I was allowed to speak and most in
attendance seemed very responsive to my farming operation as most people
are. Then I was asked to leave the meeting. According to one of the members
who was there after I left the KDFWR & RMEF convinced them this would not
affect me or other cervid farmers (what a lie!). The issue of using a
negative term like canned hunting and applying it to cervid farming is very
inappropriate.
I did learn something from this meeting. The representative from the Rocky
Mountain Elk Foundation told me that he did not believe that God created all
animals and that the Department of Fish and Wildlife Biologist were more
knowledgeable about wildlife diseases like TB, Brucellosis, EHD, and CWD
than was the State Veterinarian Dr. Stout and any other Doctor of Veterinary
Medicine. (Im just an old country boy, but that is really hard for me to
swallow). I would like to know if this is the official position of the Rocky
Mountain Elk Foundation or just their leadership?

[elkguy]

Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

[JPARKER]

Hey Elkguy looks like you have made some more new friends. LUCKY YOU.

[elkguy]

Hey Elkguy looks like you have made some more new friends. LUCKY YOU.

Yep, I am quite the charmer.

[WBBP]

Hey Mr. Charm, I thought that was your last post...... :D

Tell Taylor I said he was off to a good start. :D

K

[elkguy]

Hey Mr. Charm, I thought that was your last post...... :D

Tell Taylor I said he was off to a good start. :D

K

I know. I know. I just can't stay away from you guys, especially Multidigits. And I am a compulsive talker.

How do you insert those little symbols into a sentence? I click on them and they go to the title line.

Mr. Charm........? Kinda has a nice ring to it.

[grouseguy]

Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

elkguy,

That is a disappointing response. Until this afternoon, I had never heard the name, Brook Ping, so you have the advantage since you apparently have met him, but by his written words, he appears well spoken and respectful.

This would have been a good opportunity for you to either professionally address his concerns/issues directly or stay away from the discussion as you stated in your first post on this thread. Continued belittling and/or insulting responses, such as yours, only increase the division and mistrust already present.

It is also unfortunate that anyone, who was not being disruptive, was asked to leave a public meeting. If you, or others, have the answers to the concerns/issues being raised, by all means, provide the information to support your position. If your information/position is sound, it will withstand the scrutiny of the opposition. Our fellow sportsmen deserve better from those of us in a leadership position.

[elkguy]

This issue is not even on my radar screen. I am working on habitat issues. I am busy enough without going to war with deer farmers. I attended the meeting because I was invited and out of curiosity.

It was funny to learn that I am an infidel and do not believe that God created animals, and that I am using the LKS. That is just goofy.

I am also sure that this will not be the last I disappoint you Mark.

[grouseguy]

I am also sure that this will not be the last I disappoint you Mark.

Based on the attitude being displayed on this thread, I'd say that's a safe bet.

[elkguy]

I just can't shut up. If you want to know what the RMEF is up to, ask Schuyler Olt. Schuyler attended our conservation planning meeting in Frankfort this past Wednesday on behalf of the LKS. Schuyler heard a lot, or just about all, of the nitty gritty details about what the RMEF is doing and is going to do for the next several years in KY. We never once mentioned deer farms. We discussed high leverage strategies to protect and improve habitat and to provide more hunting opportunities, and to work on economic development opportunites in SE KY.

[grouseguy]

That's exactly what I'm talking about...you have a lot of positives to emphasize. Why get drawn into a pissing match over an issue that's not even "on your radar screen". Play to your strengths...emphasize the habitat and land acquisition work you're doing. Those are uniting issues that basically all sportsmen can support.

The recent crossbow firestorm has deeply divided those organizations that are the most active in wildlife politics in KY. That's why I personally have stayed away from that topic unless I have something to actually contribute to the debate.

As for CWD and Cervid Ranching...I'm convinced there is common ground that will accomodate/protect both sides of the debate, but we have to get past all of the misinformation and mistrust that has been created and fostered, and actually open up a productive dialogue.

Regardless of our politics, beliefs, and preferences...we are all sportsmen, which means to me that we all likely have more commonalities than differences.

I'm getting out of here now...you have a good weekend.

[WBBP]

Bowhunter 10:

You have made several accusations about the 9th District Federation. You really ought to know the facts before you start getting on here posting a bunch of junk.

The Federation meeting you attended in the 9th District was for Federation members only. If you or your other Cervid farmer friends are not a Federation member in the 9th district, then you shouldn't have been there unless you were invited. You were not invited as far as I know. If you want to attend the meetings in the 9th Federation, call Taylor Orr (Director) and find out how to join the Federation-then you can express your views openly as a member.

In contrast, the Cervid hunters "were" invited to attend the last LKS meeting in Frankfort where all 9 Federation Directors were present including me, the Director for the 2nd District. I listened to your presentation and asked more questions than anyone I think. Your group was well spoken, even though you talked pretty harsh about the Department, which doesn't go over very well with me or in my part of the State. You asked the LKS Board to support your cause in writing and it will be taken up at the next LKS Board of Director's meeting in October. You did this meeting the right way.

IMO, what you and your Cervid farmer friends did by comming to the 9th District Federation meeting was try to force your views on a group of sportsmen that you are not affilated with. They had every right to ask you to leave. Honestly, you just can't go around the state forcing you views on other sportsmen when you aren't invited.

Finally, if a Federation decided that it wants to show its members a tape of Bellar's operation in IN, it is their business. I think where I would personally draw the line is trying to compare any of Kentucky's Cervid farmers to the operation at Bellar's. I have seen the tape BTW, with the majority of the Board of Directors, and not one negative comment was made toward the Cervid farmers after seeing the tape. That would have been like comparing apples and oranges.

Kalen Watkins
2nd District Federation Director

[Bowhunter10]

WBBP
Kalen,
You first must know that Taylor Orr from the 9th district did invite his
long time friend Randal Bentley. Randal contacted Taylor after he heard the
terrible news that there was a meeting set up by the Federation to discuss
putting cervid farmers out of business. Taylor invited Randal to his office
were the meeting was being held. Randal’s family has suffered greatly,
emotionally and economically because of the Governors executive Order we are trying to change. Verify the information with Taylor.
Your description of our family farms as primarily canned hunt operations is
totally wrong. The objection to canned hunts is that so called hunters hunt
wild deer or elk in fenced facilities. Our animals are privately owned
domesticated deer and elk. I hand feed many of my deer. Our elk and deer are
livestock and are harvested like any other farm-raised animal in a humane
manner.
I would certainly never wish on your family or your business what you are
wishing on my family and my business. We are hard working honest farmers and sportsman facing overwhelming odds. As cervid farmers we harvest and produce velvet antlers for vitamins and medicine, venison meat for restaurants and markets, breeder bucks sell for $50,000 to $1,000,000, skins sold to make clothing, gloves and moccasins, heads are mounted and sold for decorations in offices and restaurants, and antlers are used to make knifes , lamps, and chandeliers. It is our honest hard working family businesses and we plan to keep our farms.
In reference KDFWR, you know and have back-up information that they violated the law. (The Executive Order) You know and have back-up information that the elk imported by KDFWR and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation into Kentucky were imported from now CWD infected States. You know and have the facts that the elk that were imported came from a herd that had sick animals. You know and have the back-up information to know that the elk were imported in violation of a importation moratorium in effect at
the time they imported the elk. It is your option not to believe the
information from the University of Kentucky, which was given to the League.
It is you decision to close your eyes.

As sportsman, farmers and property owners we should work together to protect
our rights as PETA and the tree-huggers are all around us waiting to pick up
the spoils. They are closer than you may think.

As Kentucky farmers and sportsman's we are ready to further discuss this
issue and we know that common ground can be achieved
and cool minds will prevail.

[grouseguy]

The Federation meeting you attended in the 9th District was for Federation members only. If you or your other Cervid farmer friends are not a Federation member in the 9th district, then you shouldn't have been there unless you were invited. You were not invited as far as I know. If you want to attend the meetings in the 9th Federation, call Taylor Orr (Director) and find out how to join the Federation-then you can express your views openly as a member.


Kalen,

I understand your position, but I would respectfully disagree with you on the point of invitations. The LKS is not a "secret society", we are an open membership organization and all are welcome as long as they treat others with respect. The KDFWR Commission has recently, and in the past, come under suspicion for dealings away from the public eye, and are facing much criticism for those actions. This particular LKS board has had an effect on opening up the process for the state's sportsmen, and I personally, am very proud of that progress.

If our message is true and valid, then it will withstand the scrutiny of the sportsmen and non-sporting public. There is no reason to fear differences within our ranks, nearly every opinion/position respresents a segment of sportsmen. Everyone should be heard and a fully informed majority will establish our direction.

Members come from non-members.

IMHO, neither the LKS or the individual Federations should operate by invitation only. They should be, and are, open to all, and strength of the truth within their message will determine their acceptance or rejection by the majority of the membership.

We may have a difference of opinion on this issue, but I personally, didn't get involved in this process to become the "exclusive" voice of the sportsmen, by discrediting other segments of sportsmen that may have different perspectives and priorities.

You have a good weekend.

Mark Rogers
8th District Director

[Bowhunter10]

Fellow sportsman and LKS members,
> I have been reading some of the posts relative to canned hunts and farmers
> of privately owned farm-raised cervids. I have hunted and fished all my
> life throughout the U.S. and Canada. Most of the hunts I have done has
> been with a bow and arrow giving the game I hunt the greatest
> opportunity. I have never hunted in a high fence facility. Hunting the
> wild has given me years of fantastic hunts and the opportunity of
> observing the majestic wild elk in the Rocky's, the cunning and illusive
> wild whitetail deer and the fantastic enjoyment of hunting a wise mature
> wild turkey. I have taught both of my daughters and countless youngsters
> to hunt with a bow and have taught them all the fantastic things about our
> wildlife and fair chase. I would never approve of anyone putting a
> majestic wild animal of any kind, wild turkey, wild quail, wild elk, wild
> whitetail deer, wild pheasant, wild buffalo, wild ducks in a" canned hunt
> " facility to slaughter the animals. With that said gentlemen, you should
> not allow anyone to tell you that the privately owned farm-raised
> livestock that we own are anything like our wild animals. To say anything
> else is insulting our majestic wildlife. To believe it only shows you have
> never experienced "The Hunt". Who can believe that butter ball turkey we
> buy at Wal-Mart is anything like a cunning wild tom? Who can believe that
> the elk that are hand fed every day raised to be slaughtered like any
> other livestock are anything like our majestic elk in the wilds of the
> Rocky's? Anyone that has hunted wild ducks knows its not like shooting
> farm raised ducks for the dinner table. Anyone who has hunted wild quail
> knows the difference when they harvest a farm raised quail at the bird
> preserve. And anyone who has hunted wild rabbits with a pack of beagles
> knows the difference between a wild rabbit and one raised at the farm for
> the dinner table. The issues are clear, unless you are one of these guys
> that feel that harvesting farm raised livestock is the same as harvesting
> one of our majestic wildlife trophy animals. Than if that is the case you
> can go to Disney World and dream on.
>
> All the animals that are privately owned farm raised are raised to be
> slaughtered and used for food product. There is just no other way to do
> it, if you want to have meat in your barbecue or turkey on your dinner
> table you have to humanely slaughter farm raised animals. That's why I
> have asked the LKS to support Kentucky farmers to help us ask the
> Legislature to delineate the difference between our majestic wildlife and
> our privately owned livestock, to rescind or cancel the Executive Order
> that is putting us out of business by not issuing new cervid facility
> permits and to have the experts the U.S. Department of Agriculture and
> our Kentucky State Veterinarian to be the authority and set disease policy
> as he is required to do by Kentucky Law. And to make it clear to all, the
> Kentucky Department of Agriculture and the State Veterinarian policy today
> is no importation of cervids into Kentucky even without the Executive
> Order. Nobody wants importation of any animals into Kentucky unless it is
> totally safe, especially cervid farmers that have years of work, sacrifice
> and thousands of dollars invested in their farms.
>
> The "canned hunt issue" the poacher Ballar film issue" are used as smoke
> screens to stop dialog. Lets keep talking guys we should be able to sort
> things out.
>
>
> Lou Ortega
> KALA member
> LKS member
> Pope and Young club member

[daking]

Lou, while you make some valid points, there is one thing that won't change. Whitetail deer raised in an enclosure are genetically the same as those that occur wild outside the enclosure. The butterball at Wal-Mart doesn't even resemble a wild turkey. Cows aren't native to the wilds of Kentucky. They are livestock. Deer are deer and Fish and Wildlife has a vested interest in maintaining the viability of the herd. They may be livestock on your side of the fence but they're game on the other side and since no one can guarantee that the fence will never be breached, the KDFWR must be allowed to regulate both.


Terry Sullivan

[Bowhunter10]

Lou, while you make some valid points, there is one thing that won't change. Whitetail deer raised in an enclosure are genetically the same as those that occur wild outside the enclosure. The butterball at Wal-Mart doesn't even resemble a wild turkey.

Terry,

I would like to respond to your concerns if I may. Every domesticated animal on the planet, that is raised on a farm, came from wild stock.

Cows aren't native to the wilds of Kentucky. They are livestock.

Bison are native to the wilds of KY and they are livestock.

Deer are deer and Fish and Wildlife has a vested interest in maintaining the viability of the herd. They may be livestock on your side of the fence but they're game on the other side and since no one can guarantee that the fence will never be breached, the KDFWR must be allowed to regulate both.


Terry, I couldn’t agree with you more! It should be and currently is the responsibility of the KDFWR to regulate our fences to insure the viability of our livestock and the wildlife. The KDFWR sends a Captain out to every deer farm in the state, twice a year, to inspect our fence. The Dept. of Ag. Sends an inspector out 4 times a year. Which also visits every deer farm in the state, to check fences, ear tags, takes a head count, and checks the general health and conditions of our animals. On an average I have a visitor every two months knocking on my door. Asking to check my facility. I have no problem with that what so ever. How ever, after following all the regulations for almost 30 years I expect to be allowed to do business.

[grouseguy]

Kudos to Lafe, Lou & Terry for discussing this issue professionally. Just like the crossbow firestorm, neither side on this issue is going to beat the other side into submission. I firmly believe that an open dialogue between both sides will yield a viable solution that will protect the resource and enable the farmers to continue business.

There has been too much polarization, unfortunately from those who were supposed to have led, but that obstacle is largely behind us now. FWIW, this issue was discussed at length at the August 18th, 8th District Federation meeting, with good input from both perspectives. While no vote was taken or sought, the "meat" of the discussion centered around finding a way to protect the wild herd, while still allowing the cervid ranchers to operate. While no definitive position was reached, or expected, the overall tone of the discussion was for the parties to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides and for the KDFWR to move on to other issues that were more important to the sportsmen.

[Multidigits]

I'd like to know why Mark and some others are trying to make this an LKS issue??? seems it goes back to following the rules set forth, no matter who has the task of enforcement. Past history doesn't have anything to do with it, including the elk project?

[spurs]

Bowhunter10: I have one question about these so called pin raised domesticated deer. Where did these cervid ranchers gene pool come from? If we could trace the DNA of these deer, would we not find that these herds began from wild deer that had been picked up and taken to people that had permits to keep wild deer in captivity.

[WBBP]

Bowhunter 10:

Thank's for your response.

I think that you have misunderstood a portion of my post. I will try to clear this up.

I never said that the Cervid Farmers were operating canned hunts. I did say that the majority of the animals raised on Cervid Farms in Kentucky are sold for high fence operations (canned hunts) in Kentucky and other states. I really didn't even get into how the animals were raised on your farms. I don't want you to think I was criticizing your farms, because I wasn't. At the meeting you attended, I was discussing my thoughts weighing your right to operate and make a living as oppoosed to the the ethical and moral considerations of raising deer to be sold to oeprations that had them harvested in an unethical fashion. I am still torn about this. One one hand, it is the American way to work hard and receive the benefits of your work w/o government intrusion. On the other hand, hunting animals in pens and small fenced-in areas is unethical in my opinion. Walking up to a pen and picking out your trophy deer and asking what he will score prior to hunt is horrid. As a sportsman I can't just turn a blind eye to this.

During the LKS Board of Directors Meeting, I asked your group what you were doing with the animals you were raising. Your group answered by telling me that a portion were sold for their velvet, another portion were sold for meat, and another portion were sold to high fence operations. Brian Preston spoke up at that time and stated that approximately 80% of those animals your group raised were sold to high fence hunting operations or what I call "canned hunts". Not one person from you group voiced any concern over his comment. Based on this I have two questions:

1) Have I drawn the wrong conclusions about where your primary sales of cervids are?

2) What percent of the animals you produce (deer) are sold to fenced hunting operations?

3) Do you or any of your group that go under the name "cervid farmers" raise deer on your property and then let hunters on your property to harvest them?

You made the comment (paraphrase) that I could close my eyes to the mid-deeds and violations of the Department when dealing with you and your group. I did sit at at LKS Board meeting and hear you make accusations against the Department. I am not calling you or your group liars, but I have not seen anything yet to make me conclusively believe that the Department has lied to you or your group. Even if you did give me a file of information, I am not sure if I could sort it out. The reason being is that there is always two sides to every case. That is what the Courts are for and that is where I suggest you send your case.

I am a supporter of the Department on a great majority of issues. The hunting and fishing in the 2nd District is some of the best in the state/nation. That didn't happen by accident. What I want you to know is that you are asking me to support something that is tied to unethical hunting operations IMO and I can't support that since it goes against everything I stand for.

You may get my support if you sponsored legislation or proposed tight restrcitions on high fence hunting operations in KY. I am not talking about 10 deer in 50 acres either. I am talking about operations with high accountability and a large acreage where a deer would have a fair chance. In the meantime, I respectfully cannot support waht you are asking me to.

Once we are done with that, we can then talk about CWD.

Finally, I will have to support my fellow LKS Director Taylor Orr. If he asked anyone from your group to not attend the meeting, but invited others, I can assume he thought he had a good reason. His reasoning probably revolved around the issue that he had already met with your group. Again, if you want a seat at the table, you need to join the 9th District Federation, I am sure they would accept you as a member.

Thank's again.

K

[WBBP]

Mark:

Thanks for your response.

I can agree that the LKS is not a secret society, but when you find out through the grapevine that a sportsman's group is having a meeting and is opposed to your point of view, it would seem to me that the proper way to react would be:

1) Contact the leadership and respectfully ask to get on the agenda so that you can state your opinion. If this fails.....

2) Join the sportsman's club and ask to be put on the agenda. If this fails....

3) Take the 9th District Federation Leadership hostage, tie them up and force them to hear you point of view. :D

Reacting to rumors of what might be going to happen at a meeting through hearsay and then getting upset once you get to the meeting since you are asked to leave, is not the right way to go about getting your point across.

The Cervid Farmers are smart professional people, I am sure they understand proper protocol of how to get on an agenda.

I guess we will have to wait and hear what Taylor's side is.

Finally, the Commission is a public body and operates under different rules than the 9th District Federation when it comes to who can attend the meeting and where the meeting takes place.

Thanks, K


I understand your position, but I would respectfully disagree with you on the point of invitations. The LKS is not a "secret society", we are an open membership organization and all are welcome as long as they treat others with respect. The KDFWR Commission has recently, and in the past, come under suspicion for dealings away from the public eye, and are facing much criticism for those actions. This particular LKS board has had an effect on opening up the process for the state's sportsmen, and I personally, am very proud of that progress.

If our message is true and valid, then it will withstand the scrutiny of the sportsmen and non-sporting public. There is no reason to fear differences within our ranks, nearly every opinion/position respresents a segment of sportsmen. Everyone should be heard and a fully informed majority will establish our direction.

Members come from non-members.

IMHO, neither the LKS or the individual Federations should operate by invitation only. They should be, and are, open to all, and strength of the truth within their message will determine their acceptance or rejection by the majority of the membership.

[spurs]

I too have a lot of mixed feelings about this issue. I feel that a man has a right to make a living. I also know some of these cervid ranchers and know them as honest hard working sportsmen, who themselves would never call a canned hunt a hunt, as most of us refer to hunting. I think one issue that we must be clear on is, when is a deer not a deer? If it was born a deer I feel it is always and will always be viewed as a deer. Therefor the Fish and Wildlife should have jurisdiction over all laws regulating it either wild or captive. I don't think this has to be a bad thing. I also think that the cervid ranchers would benifit from this. I never heard not one person refer to any of these ranchers in any negative way or accusing them of running one of these canned hunts that was viewed. But, who is to say that operations of this type couldn't take place here, if regulations aren't passed to prevent it. If a cervidrancher wants to sell his deer for the rack or meat , what wouldbe wrong with advertising it for what it is, a deer or trophy shoot. Not a hunt. The person taking the animal could in no way pretend to hunt,ie: get in a stand or blind and make believe they are hunting. Instead they would merely walk to a pin, pick out their animal, and humainly kill it or have the rancher kill the animal. The rancher would then document this animal so it could never be entered as any fair chase harvest. The fish and wildlife would monitor these operations and any violations would mean loss of license and animals for ever.With something like this I feel that the antis could in noway use these operations to denounce hunting, and the ranchers could still profit from their ranching operations.

[9th Fair Chase Hunter]

I am President of the 9th District Federation of the League Of Kentucky Sportsmen , Also I was suposedly running the meeting that you all have spent so much time talking about.
The 9th district Federation meets on the Second Tuesday of each month, and if any sportsmen or woman wants to address our group they should contact us in advance and let us know. If possible we will try to give them a fair chance to be hurd. However do to the restriction of time we must limit who and how long.
The meeting in question was a special meeting scheduled to try to meet with KDFWR and Dept of Agriculture and some Legislators who where invited. Mr. Lane From KDFWR was the only one of these who chose to attend. We would like for the others to have been there to give us their view. We did not invite any Cervid Farmers because I did not know any to invite, I am glad that three of them did attend however. I learned alot from them, Mr. Ping was an esspecially Effective advocate for the group.
They were given time to address the meeting and make their point of view known. These gentlemen where polite and respectful, I hope they can say the same of us. After what I think was a fair amount of time we ask them to watch the now infamous Indiana Video ( which most of us were seeing for the first time) and then I gave the Men a chance to respond to what we had seen. They made final comments then as they had agreed before the meeting started , we ask that they withdraw and let the Voting members of the Federation have our meeting. They did so graciously , I shook their hands and thanked them for comming and they left.
We then had our meeting it lasted about 45 minutes. Hardly enough time to start some secret society.

Kevin

[Bowcrazy]

Good comments Kevin, thanks for running a good meeting under the circumstances, looks like everyone has had an opportunity to comment on this but the 9th District folks.

Let me add just a few bit more to what our President had to say. As a past Director, past Secretary and VP of the 9th District, I am very familiar with the bylaws and have a copy close at hand. Those bylaws are very specific as to attendance at meetings. They state that meetings are open to members of member clubs and after that any public attendance is at the discretion of the federation. The federation is a self-standing organization that has authority to limit outside attendance in any way it deems appropriate. That authority has been excercised in the past and I'm sure it will be again in the future.

Having said that, regardless of what Mr. Lane may have requested, which is really irrelevent as it might relate to the federation, the cervid farmers that showed up were allowed to attend the meeting, their comments were sought and welcomed by the member clubs in attendance and the exchange of information remained civil. I agree with Kevin, I personally learned a lot from the meeting and am glad they came. I would also state ( personal opinion here noted David) that I actually gave more weight to what was said by the the cervid farmers, one of whom I have known for a long time, than I did to Mr. Lane whom I had never met and Mr. Ledford who is such an outspoken critic of the League and everything it does, I don't know why he bothers to attend meetings in the first place :)

As to the request for a "copy of the resolution", there was no resolution offered nor was one passed. The only action taken by the federation was to state a position against canned hunts and high fenced hunting of cervids ( deer and elk)......something the cervid farmers said they agreed with during the discussion at the meeting.

Any disagreements as referred to on this thread between the cervid farmers and the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife, the National Wildlife Federation or the Gentleman from Montana are the business of those organizations and individual(s) and are not in any way related to the 9th Fish and Wildlife District Federation or its member clubs.

[Birdman]

Very well said.

[Bowhunter10]

I'd like to know why Mark and some others are trying to make this an LKS issue??? seems it goes back to following the rules set forth, no matter who has the task of enforcement. Past history doesn't have anything to do with it, including the elk project?

Multidigits, the reason it’s a LKS issue is because LKS cares about what happens to wildlife. It is obvious LKS cares about elk being brought into Kentucky from western States and loose in the wild, as they care not to have privately owned farm raised cervids getting loose in the wild. Protection of wildlife in the wild should be an LKS issue. Not to mention LKS support for the Governors Executive Order that is putting cervid farmers out of business and the resolution recently passed by the LKS that limits the rights of property owners to harvest their livestock (privately owned deer and elk) on their own private property.

[Bowhunter10]

Bowhunter10: I have one question about these so called pin raised domesticated deer. Where did these cervid ranchers gene pool come from? If we could trace the DNA of these deer, would we not find that these herds began from wild deer that had been picked up and taken to people that had permits to keep wild deer in captivity.

Spurs, you know that every animal today that is domesticated came from wild stock even your toy poodle or a bird dog. Farmers originally started domesticating cervids hundreds of years ago and over 100 years ago in the U.S. with wild stock. But know one is using wild stock now (legally), since the farmer is producing by genetic selection and artificial insemination. There are privately owned farm raised animals (whitetails) on private property that are scoring over 400 inches, Boone and Crockett scoring system. I agree with you, KDFWR helped to start farms by giving orphan and injured animals to farmers. This happened in many states.

[Bowhunter10]

[QUOTE=WBBP]


During the LKS Board of Directors Meeting, I asked your group what you were doing with the animals you were raising. Your group answered by telling me that a portion were sold for their velvet, another portion were sold for meat, and another portion were sold to high fence operations. Brian Preston spoke up at that time and stated that approximately 80% of those animals your group raised were sold to high fence hunting operations or what I call "canned hunts". Not one person from you group voiced any concern over his comment. Based on this I have two questions:

Kalin, I hope you realize that Bryan Preston told us at the LKS directors meeting that the National Wildlife Federation agenda is to ban all high fence facilities on private property. The reason he gave is because it restricted the movement of migrating animals. MIGRATING ANIMALS!! Who does the National Wildlife Federation think they are telling private property owners the type and size of fence to install on their property!! Furthermore Bryan's statement that CWD in Kentucky would devastate 30 to 40 % of the herd because of Kentucky deer density, is a gross miss statement, Wisconsin’s deer density is greater than Kentucky’s and Wisconsin has found approximately one half of one percent of the animals tested have CWD. This is after Wisconsin tested over 75,000 deer. It was the deer farmers intention to advise you and let you know how the LKS actions are affecting the farmer and not to argue with a guest at the LKS Board of Directors Meeting.


1) Have I drawn the wrong conclusions about where your primary sales of cervids are?

2) What percent of the animals you produce (deer) are sold to fenced hunting operations?

Less than 50% of our livestock goes to harvesting facilities, and are humanely harvested like any other livestock.


3) Do you or any of your group that go under the name "cervid farmers" raise deer on your property and then let hunters on your property to harvest them?

Anyone can come to any of our farms and legally harvest our animals any time of the year.

Kalin, the plan that we have for the cervid industry is to help the Kentucky Farmer economically. The U.S. imports millions of pounds of venison each year and there is no reason Kentucky farmers should not benefit economically from producing venison for the markets. The expansion of the cervid industry would help the tobacco farmers that have lost their crop and would give them another source of income. Alternative farming is the big thing in Kentucky today.


You made the comment (paraphrase) that I could close my eyes to the mid-deeds and violations of the Department when dealing with you and your group. I did sit at at LKS Board meeting and hear you make accusations against the Department. I am not calling you or your group liars, but I have not seen anything yet to make me conclusively believe that the Department has lied to you or your group. Even if you did give me a file of information, I am not sure if I could sort it out. The reason being is that there is always two sides to every case. That is what the Courts are for and that is where I suggest you send your case.

The information given to you in reference to KDFWR is simple to sort out. If you need to ask us any questions about KDFWR’S actions we will gladly answer the questions in a public forum.


I am a supporter of the Department on a great majority of issues. The hunting and fishing in the 2nd District is some of the best in the state/nation. That didn't happen by accident. What I want you to know is that you are asking me to support something that is tied to unethical hunting operations IMO and I can't support that since it goes against everything I stand for.

We are asking for LKS participation in developing legislation that protects both wildlife and protects our family farms that raise privately own farm raise cervid on private property. Whether you like it our not we have common interest. Our animals are harvested in a humane manner. Your description of canned hunt operations is respected but it is not what we are promoting in Kentucky. Livestock, our deer and elk are humanly harvested and that is the way we want to keep it.


You may get my support if you sponsored legislation or proposed tight restrcitions on high fence hunting operations in KY. I am not talking about 10 deer in 50 acres either. I am talking about operations with high accountability and a large acreage where a deer would have a fair chance. In the meantime, I respectfully cannot support waht you are asking me to.

Even if I agreed with you (but I don’t) there is no private property group in Kentucky that would agree with imposing (laws) limitations to how Kentucky citizens can use their private property to run a livestock operation.


Once we are done with that, we can then talk about CWD.

In reference to CWD that is why KDFWR has imposed the Executive Order. It is important to wildlife and our farms to discuss CWD

[Multidigits]

I know for a fact that the day the enclosure is erected and before the gate is shut that all the animals already inside belong to the state. As soon as the gate is closed, they become privately owned livestock. That's bull crap in anyones book. No compensation for animals entrapped inside=the public getting screwed.

[Papaw]

There are some good Idea's on this forum!!!! Probably one of the best is that the LKS hold a meeting with KDFWR, KDA, KALA(Cervid farmers organization) and Ky Farm Bureau and work out what is best for KY. For our wildlife, Livestock and the over all well being of our economy.

Multi seems to think that this is not work that the LKS should be involved in. I think Commissioner Baker and the KDFWR has asked for a position from LKS on cervid farming. I would hope that LKS would want the true facts from every one before taking a position. although it has not been the method used by KDFWR in the past it should have been as there would not have been as many controversies

SPUR you asked when is a deer not a deer and it is never. However maybe you should have ask when is a deer or any animal not wildlife. Look at your dictionary for the definition of wildlife and you will see that the specie has nothing to do with whether any animal is wildlife or not. The enviroment the animal is in defines whether the animal is wildlife.

I am a born and bred Kentuckian and have hunted and fished for 57 yrs of my life, I assisted Sherrill Miller in writing the Archery Corner in the (OLD)_ Happy Hunting Ground magazine (how many can even remember back then) owned a water fowl hunting farm in Ballard(back when we had water fowl) hunted quail(what are these you ask) all over West Ky, belonged to The Waverly Archery Club in Louisville(no clubs in W. Ky then) and now have a 585 acre beef and Elk farm. I am probably the largest cervid farmer in Ky. but I like other cervid farmers would do nothing to harm our wildlife.

What I am now seeing from our wildlife dept is dangerous to all hunters and fisherman. When our Wildlife Dept appears with PETA to ban animals from Ky as they did at the Legislative Regulatory Commitee a few months ago I ask What is going to happen? We don't need Peta or any outside special interest groups influence to know what is best for Ky.

Hey I can go on forever if any one is really interested in how the cervid farmers have been treated for the last 5 yrs PM me and I will give you my e-mail and phone number.

[Papaw]

Multidigit get your facts correct! Before any cervid facility farm or hunting preserve is permitted by the KDFWR the conservation officiers check to see if there are any wild cervids with in the fence before the gate can be closed. Man there are so many facts that are not facts put out by people that should know what they are talking about that it is crippling the creditablility of our wildlife dept. The conservation officiers assigned the inforcement of regulations do a wonderful job.

[Bowhunter10]

I know for a fact that the day the enclosure is erected and before the gate is shut that all the animals already inside belong to the state. As soon as the gate is closed, they become privately owned livestock. That's bull crap in anyones book. No compensation for animals entrapped inside=the public getting screwed.

Multidigits, With all do respect your whole statement is false absolutly false, this is not how it works. After spending almost 30 years of selective breeding, the last thing I want is a wild deer in my facility. I hope that other sportsmen don't have the opinion that we are illegaly traping deer. When a harvesting facility is constructed a small section of fence is left open. I would then request of the KDFWR to be present to witness the removal of all wild deer. The small fence is immediately stretched up and the gate locked. Then It would be stocked with my privately owned farm raised cervids. If you know anyone that is currently trapping wild deer contact KALA and we will make sure that they are busted.

[WBBP]

Bowhunter 10:

Thanks for your comments:

I asked you 3 specific questions in my last post. I think I need to refine some of my questions and ask a few more. First I will post my question and your answer, then ask again:


2) Original question: What percent of the animals you produce (deer) are sold to fenced hunting operations?

Your answer: Less than 50% of our livestock goes to harvesting facilities, and are humanely harvested like any other livestock.

Summary: You evaded my question and carefully inserted wording of your own. You inserted the word livestock for the word deer and then you inserted the term harvest facility for the term "fenced hunting operations". I am not sure why you won't just answer the question directly and say straight up that your pimary purpose for raising cervids is to sell them to high fence hunting operations. I am not the enemy, I just want to know where your product goes and what is being done with it.

For the record and as a hunter, I don't consider elk and deer to be "livestock". I know that some others and you do, but I am discussing this with you as a hunter. On a related note, I do not consider fenced hunting operations to be "harvesting facilities where the cervids are humanely harvested like any other livestock". I think "some" fenced hunting is inhumane. I was not aware that other real livestock like cows and goats were fed high protein pellets in a confined area, then released to a fenced farm and shot by "so called hunters" for thousands of dollars, then mounted by a taxidermist and put over the fireplace.

3) Original Question: Do you or any of your group that go under the name "cervid farmers" raise deer on your property and then let hunters on your property to harvest them?

Answer: Anyone can come to any of our farms and legally harvest our animals any time of the year

Summary: I assume that you mean "hunters" can come to your fenced farm during a legal deer or elk season and kill deer and elk. Is this true?

I don't mean to display any opposition to what you do,,,,,,,I just want to know exactly what you do. I am opposed to hunters killing deer behind "most" high fences.

Thanks, Kalen

[Multidigits]

Multidigits, With all do respect your whole statement is false absolutly false, this is not how it works. After spending almost 30 years of selective breeding, the last thing I want is a wild deer in my facility. I hope that other sportsmen don't have the opinion that we are illegaly traping deer. When a harvesting facility is constructed a small section of fence is left open. I would then request of the KDFWR to be present to witness the removal of all wild deer. The small fence is immediately stretched up and the gate locked. Then It would be stocked with my privately owned farm raised cervids. If you know anyone that is currently trapping wild deer contact KALA and we will make sure that they are busted.

So, if you fence in 800 acres, how do you purge every single deer out of that area????? You don't, that's how. BTW--I have a brother-in-law that has an 800 acre high fenced area, and have a little bit of experience with it. He's never bought any deer into that facility, and it's loaded down. Where did they come from, the air????

[damon kustes]

The camel has gotten it's nose under the tent...what a shame!!!!

[Skipper]

I can only wish that Lou Ortega had attended the meeting we held so he would have his facts straight before he goes on line and tries to make us out to be a bunch of goons trying to take his farm away.

First of all, I believe I can say that the meeting was mostly my idea. I had no idea that such hunts/killings went on at these fascilities, and honestly, it bothers me that someone is permitted to shoot wildlife in small pens. To my way of thinking, it is wrong, and will always be wrong. It would be not much different from someone putting a machine at home plate that caught a baseball and threw it over the fence. What would be the point in playing baseball?

What the league tried to do at the convention was pass a resolution to bring to the commission to regulate how hunts are conducted on these kinds of facilities. That resolution passed, and frankly, I wondered why Lou Ortega of all people sat silently as it did. I later found out why. In 2002, Lou Ortega managed to "Politic" the regulation of cervid farms from regulation by the KDFWR to the Department of Agriculture and somehow got the definition of captive cervids changed from wildlife to Livestock. In other words, they were going to do whatever it is they chose to do regardless of what anyone else thinks about the issue. You can’t do that on a cattle farm, hog farm or for that matter any other business. In all businesses, there are rules and regulations that must be followed, like it or not.

The primary point of the League's resolution was to limit "hunting" or "harvesting" or "killing" or whatever you want to call it on one of the facilities to one that has a minimum of 200 acres in the enclosure with no internal fences. In other words, a deer couldn't be placed in a smaller 2 or 3 acre pen and shot by someone pretending they are hunting. I frankly don't see how anyone with any hunting ethics at all to them would have a problem with that. If you want to slaughter a deer for it's skin, antlers, meat, head, whatever, there are ways to do that on a farm that do not involve putting the animal in a 2 acre pen, placing a shooter in a treestand and driving the animal in front of the shooter. Cattle and hogs are slaughtered all the time at slaughter houses using appropriate methods. If you are simply wanting to harvest "your" animal, then take it to a slaughter house. Honestly, I don't think that is what you are up to. Your people said at our meeting that, "We don't believe in calling what we do hunting either, but in our advertisements we call it hunting because it markets better." That might be why Elkguy is being a little flippant in his answers to you.

What the League found out when they took the resolution to Frankfort was that of the 86 of these operations in Kentucky, only 4 are shooting preserves and regulated by the KDFWR, the other 82 are regulated by the department of agriculture, and a resolution such as what was asked for would not be effective since it couldn't be enforced on the 82 operations they do not control.

In my opinion, the way to solve that is put the regulation of these operations back into KDFWR jurisdiction like it was before Lou Ortega managed to get it taken out of their jurisdiction. At that point, hopefully we could get the 200 acre minimum in place and put a stop to this business of placing deer or elk in small pens and shooting them.

We set up this meeting to work toward that end and get some advice from professionals such as Mr. Lane.

Never at any time did Jin Lane say that he wanted us to run off the cervid farmers. Understand, they were not invited to this meeting although we did have some advance warning that they were coming. Randal Bentley called Taylor to ask about the meeting and tell Taylor that he might be coming to it. Taylor did not call him and invite him nor did we tell anyone that they weren't welcome at the meeting. What was told to them was that we did not want a pissing match at the meeting. We wanted a productive meeting, and expected it to be civil. They were told up front that we would allow them to have their say and once they had their say, they would be asked to leave so that we could conduct our meeting as originally planned. Frankly, I felt as if they ambushed our meeting and changed the purpose of it. In all honesty, we did accomplish a lot by learning from them about their operations and what they were about. Still, their presence did change the tone of our meeting. I know of very few meetings called for to discuss a specific topic that would tolerate such an invasion, and I believe we were more than fair with them.

I am the one that brought the video, and I am not ashamed of that nor shy about it. True, it may not represent every deer farmer's operation, but I believe it is an accurate conception of what goes on with the wildlife on these facilities. The story that Mr. Ping told about the Ford executive in Louisville who flew down to kill a 200+ score buck because he only had 1 day of vacation time and didn't have time to hunt a deer but wanted a deer head for his office and some meat and purchased the right to shoot the deer for something like $15,000 told us exactly what we watched on the video where Jimmy Houston sat in a treestand with fences in every direction waiting for one of the nice bucks running under him to stop so he could kill it.

We were told by the deer farmers that they were poor out of work tobacco farmers that had been forced out of the tobacco business. Bull Hooey. I don’t know any tobacco farmer that operates a 1300 acre tobacco farm or who has 2 million dollars to invest in a deer operation. Most of the large tobacco farmers are still in business to a certain extent, and while the price is not what it was last year, there are no quota lease payments to be taken out of the sale price. I fully believe that the tobacco thing is being used as a political tool to obtain phase I and phase II funds and support from the state and Farm Bureau for these operations not as a replacement for their supposed lost tobacco income. Nobody with 1300 acres and 2 million dollars to invest is in any real danger of going broke nor are they just simple poor deer farmers.

The primary point of contention between the hunters and the deer farmers is the label of the deer and elk. Are they Wildlife or are they Livestock. If they are livestock, then the deer farmers have total jurisdiction over what goes on behind closed fences and whatever the rest of us think about Fair Chase and ethics makes little difference. If Deer and Elk are Wildlife, then I’m sorry for the deer farmers, but there are rules and regulations for hunting wildlife, and you’ll have to follow them. Personally, I find it hard to label any deer or elk as Livestock. The deer and elk in these facilities were all at one time wild and all at one time belonged to the public. They only became private property once they were fenced in and once Lou Ortega and his KALA organization got the laws amended to say as much. Prior to that they were wildlife and they belonged to the public. I’m sure Lou will disagree with that and claim that he bought and paid for his deer. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but there is no way that you can fence in large acreages and not in the process impound deer that belong to the public, nor is there any way to convince me that the deer on their places weren’t originally public property.

There is a lot at stake in this issue for the future of hunting. The fact is, less than 20% of the public hunts. That is not enough to win any referendum on any ballot. If the methods used on these places to “harvest” deer and elk were portrayed to the public as “This is what hunting is about” hunting in this country would end in a hurry. A blind person can see that this is not hunting, and certainly not ethical. If hunting ended in Kentucky, in less than 5 years we would have well over 2.5 million deer in this state. If we have a problem with road collisions and crop damage now with a 900,000 population, imagine what we’d have at that point? The “farmers” would certainly be screaming over crop damage. Hunters in this state take out approximately 200,000 deer per year. There is no natural control (wolves, coyotes, contraceptives) that is anywhere near as effective nor a viable an option.

Skip Walden
9th District KWFF Director

[grouseguy]

Skip,

You've done an excellent job of framing this issue. I may come to a few different conclusions, but you are absolutely correct in stating that the central issue in this debate is the definition of a captive cervid...are they wildlife or livestock, and frankly, both sides make good arguments on this issue. However, the fact remains that currently Kentucky law defines a captive cervid as "livestock", so before anyone can change anything, that definition will need to be successfully challenged.

Also, I think that we as sportsmen have to look in the mirror to recognize part of this problem. As a businessman, it is obvious that the cervid ranching and canned hunting industries are direct results of economic pressures of "supply and demand" within a capitalistic society. When sportsmen decided to start measuring antlers and turned deer hunting into the competitive sport of "trophy hunting", we had to realize that the end result would be a demand for larger antlers, which would be corrupted by those with the means to take short-cuts to traditional forms of deer hunting. In our quest for larger and larger racks, we created the circumstances for this "monster" to evolve. Now we are forced to deal with the consequences of those demands. So long as there is a demand for 200+" deer, there will be those that will supply that demand for a profit.

In effect, this is not unlike the mostly failed "War on Drugs". We can throw money at the symptoms, and attack the supply side of the issue, but as long as there is a demand, there will be those who will supply that demand for enough profit.

Therefore, will it really do any good to pass laws regulating the supply side of "cervid ranching" without recognizing the "demand"?

Just like most of us, I have many more questions and observations than answers, but I really don't believe that either side will be able to unilaterally impose their will on the other...it will take a good faith compromise from both sides to reach a workable solution that protects the wild resources, while recognizing and accomodating the realities facing the farmers that we, the sportsmen, helped create.

Bottomline: Just like the ongoing crossbow issue, I don't see cervid ranching as being the end of our sport. I personally feel that the in-fighting between groups of sportsmen as being more detrimental to our sport than the effects of either issue itself, and would much prefer to see both issues solved through both sides working out acceptable compromises that would address the most important issues of both sides of the debates, while being able to look past those secondary issues that simply aren't that important.

[Bowhunter10]

Original Message-----
From: Gilligan, Chris (Justice)
Sent: Monday, August 29, 200510:23 AM
Subject:





cid:image001.gif@01C5AD43.F50D22A0



Commonwealth of Kentucky

Commerce Cabinet Communications Office





For Immediate Release Contact: Chris Gilligan

August 29, 2005 (502) 564-4270 (office)

(502) 330-4967 (cell)





Cabinet Discovers Disturbing Practices at The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife



Four day work weeks; disregarding governor's order may have been norm



(Frankfort, KY) - An independent review of certain practices at The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife by the Office of Policy and Audit within the Finance and Administration Cabinet uncovered questionable business practices that may have allowed many department employees to regularly enjoy three day week-ends.



A timekeeping method known as "best 37.5", allowed employees to work their hours in just a few days instead of the customary five day work week.



"The utilization of the 'best 37.5' represented gross mismanagement by the previous agency leadership." says Commerce Cabinet Secretary Jim Host. "Further, it allowed for an exorbitant accumulation of sick time which could potentially cost the Kentucky retirement system nearly $2 million."



Employees could also take advantage of accruing sick leave and annual vacation time this way. One 27 year department employee was discovered to have more then two years of sick leave. The Kentucky Retirement System says the average amount of sick time for 27 year employees is about five months.



The report also found that the department issued 19 captive cervid permits AFTER an executive order was issued banning new permits. The executive order was issued amidst a growing concern involving Chronic Wasting Disease. The permits were in blatant disregard of the governor's 2002 executive order.



"It confounds me to see that the former management of the Department of Fish and Wildlife would issue captive cervid permits in violation of a very clear executive order," said Host.



"Although some of the issues surrounding may seem to explain away the violations," continued Secretary Host, "you can't get around the fact that an executive order was in place that said no further permits were to be issued."



A copy of the report has been sent to the nine member Fish & Wildlife Commission with a suggestion by Secretary Host that it "should be utilized as a roadmap to improve management issues and to clarify certain procedures employed by the Department of Fish & Wildlife"



The report has also been turned over to the Attorney General's Office for further review with a request that the Attorney General make a determination as to whether additional action needs to be taken.



The complete audit is attached to this e-mail.



###



Chris Gilligan
Executive Director for Communications
Kentucky Commerce Cabinet
500 Mero Street (24th floor)
Frankfort, KY. 40601
(O) 502-564-4270 ext. 168
(C) 502-330-4967
(E) Chris.Gilligan@ky.gov (Chris.Gilligan@ky.gov)
cid:image002.gif@01C5AD43.F50D22A0

[Papaw]

So, if you fence in 800 acres, how do you purge every single deer out of that area????? You don't, that's how. BTW--I have a brother-in-law that has an 800 acre high fenced area, and have a little bit of experience with it. He's never bought any deer into that facility, and it's loaded down. Where did they come from, the air????

Multidigits does your brother-in-law have a facility permit from the KDFWR. We cervid farmers facilities are checked by KDFWR for public owned deer and elk before we get a permit. I can't speak for facilities that do not have permits.

[Multidigits]

I don't have a clue. I do know he has F & W on his facility several times a year for events of some sort or the other. He is not a cervid farmer, and those deer inside are not live stock. They are wild deer that are hunted as wild deer when they are hunted at all.

[Bowhunter10]

Skipper, I have not mentioned anything on any of my posts about the 9th district. I really don’t want anyone to feel like a bunch of goons as you say in your post, so please read my only post before this one, post #20 and you will clearly find out that we are pretty close in what we believe. On the matter of the leagues resolution relative to canned hunts, I had nothing to do with the passing of that resolution and I did not create it. I thank you for letting the deer farmers in your meeting at the 9th district.

Lou Ortega
KALA member
LKS member
Pope and Young club member

[LoweBow]

Lou,
Any way you could forward that whole email to me at mwhelanjr@yahoo.com
I'd like to read the complete audit.
Mike

[Skipper]

I am appalled at the meeting held in London the 9th district.

The playing of this tape and telling my fellow sportsmen that myself and my family are criminals just like Bellar, I think is criminal. If that is not defamation of character I don’t know what is.

To ask a fellow sportsmen not to attend then ask them to leave so they could discuss in private issues that would affect them and their families I think is unacceptable. This request by the KDFWR employee Jim Lane proves that corruption is flourishing in the department.

Yes, I very much believe you were accusing us of being thugs who were meeting in secret trying to take away your farm. I believe somewhere in those posts you or your buddy Mark went on to say something about us being part of the “Great KDFWR Conspiracy” to be aired next week on the Discovery Channel or was it 60 Minutes. To a certain extent you were correct. I’m a fairly blunt speaking person and am not near as good at manipulating words as you all are. I tend to call things as I see them. If I had the power to wave my arm and say that your method of “harvesting” as you prefer to call it wildlife (as I prefer to call them) is no longer allowed, I’d do so. It is similar to the unborn child killing otherwise known as abortion argument. I’d stop that too if I could.

First of all, nobody that is spending the kind of money you all are on these small deer operations is depending on the income from these operations for their livelihood. Brook Ping stated his investment in his cervid farm was over 2 million dollars. Now, I’m pretty good with math, and I have enough sense to know that if he really and truly spent that kind of money, borrowed or from his pocket, he would have to sell a lot of deer killings to pay the interest or make a profit or whatever. A half dozen $15,000 bucks will not pay the interest on that kind of money much less pay for the operation. Secondly, I don’t know many farmers who can spend 90% of their time traveling here, yonder and the other to meetings like you do if their primary income is the farm.

I don’t know what either of you do for a living, but would be willing to bet there is money, real money, coming from somewhere else, and this deer farming business is one of 2 things, either a tax write off or a hobby that has become overgrown for it’s britches.

There are a lot of things people try to sell to the public as a cure all money making opportunity. I remember several years ago, the lottery was going to cure all of Kentucky’s school problems. That hasn’t happened, and isn’t likely to. When the powers that be proposed making Corbin wet. That was supposed to cure all the town’s financial problems. Evidently, it didn’t since we just gained a brand new occupational tax. I’ve heard people propose raising marijuana because it would be a profitable cash crop if legalized. I’m about sure that would not be a good thing.

The fact is, there are 86 people involved in cervid farming in Kentucky and there are over 300,000 sportsmen in Kentucky. The 86 people involved have managed to change laws so that the captive deer and elk are nolonger legally wildlife, and I believe that stinks to vast majority of the 300,000 sportsmen. Somewhere along the way, I was told what the exact legislative bill was that changed deer and elk in your fence to livestock, but I can say that it wasn’t a bill titled “Changing Deer and Elk from Wildlife to Livestock”. It was more like a bill having to do with changing light bulbs in light poles in Lexington. You in fact, had to hide your language change in a totally unrelated bill so that nobody would notice it as it went through the legislature, and you call us a secret society full of conspiracies.

Lou, all I can say is this. I am against what you are promoting, and I will work to inform sportsmen about what is going on in facilities like yours so that the sportsmen can make their own mind up as to the ethics of shooting, killing, harvesting or hunting a deer trapped by a fence. And no, Lou and Brook, we are not close at all in what we believe. I don’t want anyone getting the false impression that I think what you are doing is somehow ok.

Skip Walden
9th District KWFF Director

[Skipper]

Mark,

You are correct. Mr. Ortega and KALA did a fine job of slipping a bill through the legislature in 2002 to change the definition of deer behind a high fence from Wildlife to Livestock. My aim is to work toward fixing that problem.

I personally feel that the in-fighting between groups of sportsmen as being more detrimental to our sport than the effects of either issue itself

I thought Cervid ranchers were farmers not sportsmen. Now I’m getting confused. I don’t see how sportsmen fighting against non-sportsmen is a divisive issue.

Skipper

[grouseguy]

I believe somewhere in those posts you or your buddy Mark went on to say something about us being part of the “Great KDFWR Conspiracy” to be aired next week on the Discovery Channel or was it 60 Minutes.

Skip,

Let's get a couple of things straight. Lou and I are not "buddies"...I first met Lou Ortega less than six months ago, and I have never personally met with Lou in any other capacity than as the 8th District LKS Director during a regular club or LKS meeting. Lafe Boggs (Bowhunter10) and I have known each other for a few years now through a (non-cervid farming) business contact. We are all friendly and cordial, but I don't think either party considers the other as a "friend" or "buddy". Don't confuse my listening to their claims and reaching a different conclusion about their business than you have, for anything else. I have simply looked at their info/claims with an open mind and reconciled it against what I was being told by the former KDFWR administration and found them (KALA) to have more credibility "to me" concerning this issue.

If you want to discuss this issue rationally, then we can accomplish something. However, if you choose to close your mind and prejudge the issue like you expressed in the two previous posts, then I have little interest in simply arguing.

My goal in even getting involved in this issue (because I have no personal interest either way) is to simply try to get the two sides talking rationally in order to reach a fair compromise that will be acceptable to both parties and to quit wasting KDFWR time and resources on what I truly believe to be a minor issue for the future of hunting in KY.

[spurs]

Bowhunter10:

I fail to see how the 37.5 hour work week can be viewed as a big secret or corruption on behalf of the KDF&W. As any officer would tell you, if asked about this. This is a practice that has been inplace for longer than I have worked here.This also to a extent cost officers money every pay check. And one of the discussions on the table now is going to a 40.0 hour work week. Actually this will increase officers salaries and cut down on comp time. Also, as far as Law Enforcement is concearned, policy is to work at least 7.5 per shift, unless one has supervisors permission or approval for something different, this gives you 37.5 a week. This is what the salary is based on. Most officers usally work 8 hrs a day or 40.0 a week, which gives us 2.5 hrs comp time a week. We also must manage our time as to save time for call out complaints each week, especially during deer season, as overtime is not allowed without approval or involvement in a life threatening situation.I really don't see how this is considered as corruption!
Now would be a good time for me to say that views on this forum are mine and not to be represented as the Departments, as I speak for myself and not the Fish&Wildlife.My personal opinion will never influence my enforcement of a statute,but when given the opportunity, I will express my views and opioions. As this is my right as a U.S. citizen, Ky. Citizen and a concerned sportsman. I hope this clearifies things before someone trys to represent me as something I'm not.
I will not comment on the issue of permits in violation of the order, as I have no first hand knowledge of this.
As sportsmen,although we may not always agree with everything the KDF&W does, we need to support it, as long as they are working for the good of the resource. And this is their duty, to support, protect, and nourish the resource.

[Skipper]

In the meeting Jim Lane admitted that the Elk imported from now CWD infected states, was a mistake.

When did he do that? I must have been asleep.

Before the meeting started Jim Lane ask the director to ask the farmers not to attend the meeting, which he did.

Somehow you must have heard Jim say something I didn’t hear him say. I saw Jim pull into the parking lot and walked out to greet him and show him to the meeting room. We, Taylor and I, told Jim that we were aware that some deer farmers might show up. Jim said only that he did not want to get in the middle of a squabble between 2 sides. Jim was there to present facts to us not to take sides or referee a fight. He said so.

I can not testify to what Taylor told you in the parking lot as I was upstairs talking to Jim at the time. However, I’m fairly sure he did not order you to leave, but rather explained that we did not want a shouting match at the meeting but rather a civil discussion.

I also suggest that the LKS take a look at its affiliation with the RMEF and the NWF. Both of these organizations openly admit that there goal is to take my private property rights and defame my character.

Elkguy was there. Evidently, you weren’t listening when he said the issue wasn’t on his radar or the RMEF.

It was very obvious that the KDFWR & the RMEF is
using LKS to attack the cervid farmers due to the political power LKS holds.

The KDFWR did not contact us about this meeting, we contacted them. The idea was ours after we learned the LKS resolution had been turned down by the commission due to the fact that deer and elk are now classified as livestock on cervid farms and are not regulated by the KDFWR.

Elk Guy was also invited to the meeting by us as we know he is a professional wildlife manager and his opinion would be valuable to the meeting.

I am very upset with the fact that KDFWR state employees are being used to
spread propaganda with a terrible video of someone in Indiana who broke the
LAW.

The video was brought to the meeting by me not the KDFWR.

The representative from the Rocky
Mountain Elk Foundation told me that he did not believe that God created all
animals

I must have been asleep again. I never heard David say that.

It is also unfortunate that anyone, who was not being disruptive, was asked to leave a public meeting.

At no time was this meeting ever advertised as “Public”. The 9th Federation board knew about it and planned it. It was by invitation of which none of the deer farmers had. However, everyone that came to the meeting was allowed in and given time to speak. I suspect the deer farmers had a private meeting both before and after the meeting, probably in the parking lot afterwards.

You first must know that Taylor Orr from the 9th district did invite his
long time friend Randal Bentley. Randal contacted Taylor after he heard the
terrible news that there was a meeting set up by the Federation to discuss
putting cervid farmers out of business. Taylor invited Randal to his office
were the meeting was being held.

Did not happen. They invited themselves.

We are hard working honest farmers and sportsman facing overwhelming odds.

Hard working farmers with 2 million bucks to invest and 1300 acres. I have a hard time believing people with that kind of money, political influence, and relative lack of return on their investment are simple poor hard working farmers.

The LKS is not a "secret society", we are an open membership organization and all are welcome as long as they treat others with respect.

Secret society? Nah, I don’t think so. I usually put a piece in the paper in the weekly sportsman’s column about the goings on at the Federation meetings. I suppose we need to have some investigative reporter look into things to see if we are involved in the JFK or Princess Diana conspiracies.

The "canned hunt issue" the poacher Ballar film issue" are used as smoke
screens to stop dialog.

Ballar is not a poacher, he is a deer farmer harvesting his livestock in a way that is most profitable for his operation.

There are privately owned farm raised animals (whitetails) on private property that are scoring over 400 inches, Boone and Crockett scoring system.

I don’t see why you would bother scoring with Boone and Crockett since the organization stipulates “Fair Chase” in their rules.

Before any cervid facility farm or hunting preserve is permitted by the KDFWR the conservation officiers check to see if there are any wild cervids with in the fence before the gate can be closed.

I’d like to meet the officer who can say he checked 100 acres for deer and that it is clear of all deer. You could drive the deer out with a pack of hounds and miss several. A few men aren’t going to find or run out all the deer in that much land.

I had nothing to do with the passing of that resolution and I did not create it.

I’m aware of that it was signed by Dan Fister. I assume that the Bluegrass Sportsman’s League is where it originated. I thought Bowhunter10 was you.


Skipper

[smartybud]

well kdfwr isnt the only state agency to use the 37.5 work week, lots of other agencies use it as well, they weren't the ones who "invented" it, ask your self this, when you work under this 37.5 work week, you lose 10 hours pay every month how would you like to lose 10 hours pay every month?

"The utilization of the 'best 37.5' represented gross mismanagement by the previous agency leadership." guess all ky agencies that use the 37.5 hour work week is mismanaged? so by the employees giving up 10 hours pay every month, they recieve comp. time in return. Sounds like a Agency using a "money saving Method" to me.

As for the 4 day work week, ....SO WHAT? ALOT OF GOV. AGENCIES DO THAT! not just ky....geees....sounds like Host is a pure bonafide desk jockey.

[WBBP]

I used to be part of that pay system. Once my boss said no more comp time and that I have to work when it is only a benefit to the state-not a benefit to myself.

My response was for him not to ask me to work anything beyond 8-5 everyday-no more late inspections and no more responding to complaints when it benefitted the state, when it would benefit the state. I used to cover 25 counties and would try to cluster my inspections together and get up early drive 150 miles, inspect all day until the close of the business(s) I was inspecting, and then return home late after business hours. Yes, I got some comp time, but in the process saved resources, time, and money. When you cover a large area like some in the Department do, an 8-5 schedule just doesn't get it.

It can be abused, but offers a lot of flexibility.

[Papaw]

Skipper and others that accuse the cervid farmers of slipping a bill thru the Ky legislature that made Private owned, Farm raised cervids that are raised for food fiber and other products livestock is incorrect. Then Commissioner Tom Bennett and commissioner John Gassett agreed to that bill and did not oppose it. The facts are that Tom and John had the wording put into the bill that they would approve. I have a letter signed by Commissioner Tom Bennett that states that if the Cervid farmers would agree to items discussed in our meeting (the proposed bill) that KDFWR would not require any instate transportation permits and KDFWR would issue elk farming permits east of I-65 which they had not done since 1999 even tho there was no regulation or law against issuing cervid farming permits for elk, Just a decision by KDFWR in which they denied several request.

[Skipper]

If they told you that they approved of a bill turning regulation of deer and elk farms over to the dept of agriculture and changing the label of deer and elk behind fences from wildlife to livestock, then they outright lied to me. I don't really enjoy being lied to by politicians who I consider to be working for me since I am a tax payer. I would like to see a copy of that letter.

Skip

[schuyler olt]

I believe Papaw is pretty much correct on how it went down. Every regulation, and even the emergency order, involved compromise between Ag and the KDFWR.

Frankly, I think the KDFWR should have jurisdiction, but the regs need to be fair as well. I'll consider deer and elk to be "livestock" when I can saddle one or hook a milker up to it!

[Skipper]

Sky,

I'm talking about the 2002 bill that gave jurisdiction over cervid farms to the department of ag that started this deal not susequent house keeping issued that divided up the regulation where agreement had to be reached.

Skip

[schuyler olt]

Skipper,

I know that you're talking about the 2002 bill. There's an MOA floating around about it if I'm not mistaken.

I'm saying that various compromises were struck beginning well before 2002. As to the concerns regarding a violation of the emergency order, I'm certain Patton's office was in the loop.

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Skip,



I logged inn so maybe you will stop getting confused and misstating my prior post. I believe that dialog has brought some agreement our issues.




Wildlife (wild elk and deer) should not be allowed to be hunted in 10 x 10 enclosures.
KDFWR should have jurisdiction of high fenced facilities that hold wildlife (wild deer and elk).


Maybe some day you will understand that many years ago the Legislature in agreement with KDFWR and Dep. of Agriculture defined farm-raised cervid as livestock. This domesticated livestock, farm raised deer and elk are farmed on private property and the animals are private property.



My goal is to discuss these issued with the sportsman for the protection of our wildlife and our livestock. No one needs CWD in Kentucky. No one needs our wildlife to be slaughtered in a 10 x10 pen or our livestock to slaughtered inhumanely. We (sportsman & livestock producer) have the opportunity to work together to reach a consensus to protect our interest, (our wildlife and our private property).

We are on the same boat, shooting it full of holes by both sides will only hurt our wildlife and our livestock. Lets be smart and work together not against each other.



Lou Ortega:)

[BUCKHEAVEN]

:confused: Ronnie Wells,:confused:



Can you clarify what is the proper procedure for attending LKS meetings by members and none-members? Frankly, I have been telling all LKS members and non-members they are welcomed to attend any LKS/Federation meetings and participate in issues that concern the sportsman.
I am a member of the LKS a member of the 8th district federation do I have to be invited to attend my fourth istrict federation meeting in the area I live or any other distric federation meeting?

[WBBP]

You are welcome to come to the next meeting in the 2nd District Federation meeting. Just PM me and ask to get on the agenda and tell me what the prupose is, and how long you want to talk.

[Bowhunter10]

I believe Papaw is pretty much correct on how it went down. Every regulation, and even the emergency order, involved compromise between Ag and the KDFWR.

Frankly, I think the KDFWR should have jurisdiction, but the regs need to be fair as well. I'll consider deer and elk to be "livestock" when I can saddle one or hook a milker up to it!

Mr. Olt, I am considering your offer. Would you prefer one of the whitetail bucks or the herford bull, they are all livestock.

I included a picture of my son feeding livestock and livestock watching tv.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/kayboggs/Picture004sm.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/kayboggs/rodeosm.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/kayboggs/ap11-001sm.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/kayboggs/my07-001sm.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/kayboggs/Picture005sm.jpg

[schuyler olt]

Well done, Bowhunter10! That's a fine looking son, by the way.

Answer me one thing about which I am curious, in all honesty. Why raise a buck like that other than to shoot it and put it on a wall some place, aside from obviously creating sons that will go on a wall?

How many cervid operations in Kentucky primarily raise them for slaughter and consumption similar to the bison guys?

[Skipper]

Very few bucks Sky. If they sell for $15,000 like these guys claim they do, that'd be about $75 per pound on a 200 pound dressed carcas. That'd be some expensive burger. :rolleyes:

Skipper

[9th Fair Chase Hunter]

Mr. Wells In the 9th district we only allow clubs that are members of the Federation to Vote in our meetings, We also try to reach out to Sportsmen and Clubs that are Non-Members to come visit and see what we are about. However if someone wants to come address the meeting or delay the meeting, Then yes we reserve the right to limit such opportunities. I do not want to sit around for a filibuster, and not get anything done. As I stated we invited a wide variety of people to that meeting and Mr. Lane was the only one who saw fit to attend. If you could get Ritchie Farmer or someone from the legislature to come to our meeting the second Tuesday night in Sept. Please have them contact us and we will be glad to hear them out. If you would like to attend let us know , you will not be allowed to vote unless you join the 9th District but we will try to make room for you.

[Papaw]

Skipper I will be happy to show you the letter if you would like to come to my farm. Perhaps it would be good for you to come for a visit and see what you are working so hard against. I have invited the Wildlife commissioners both past and present to come and see my farming operation. Nobody is even interested to look and this has gone on for 5 yrs.

Schuyler I want to invite you to my farm also as I can partially fill you requirements to calling my cervids livestock. You can ride one and milk one by hand and I guess to fully meet your requirements 2 people could be classified as milkers. HA! HA! I do have females that can be milked. Thank you for keeping your self well informed on KDFWR situations and especially for not just taking some ones word for things but seeking the true facts.

I sell cervid meat daily and could be suppling Robert Orr/Sysco systems food Systems if I had a large enough supply. Colorada and Missouri now supplies their venison. I have turned down contracts to supply the meat from as far away as Hawaii.

[BUCKHEAVEN]

From; Lou Ortega

To; Ronnie Wells

I have been reading on the posts that your next LKS meeting will be Oct. 6 & 7 in Lexington, I would like to suggest (since both sides have suggestted) that we (LKS & KALA) set up an open forum meeting to discuss the farm cervid issues and wildlife issues before you vote on them. I would suggest that we invite to this meeting the Kentucky State Veterinarian, Kentucky Farm Bureau Representative, Secretary of Commerce Jim Host, and Commissioner Gasset. The moderator could be someone like Jim Strader (maybe) with you and me making sure we keep the folks focused on the agenda and specific issues. All sportsman and individual that are interested would be invited to attend and given an opportunity to ask questions or make comments. I believe that we have more in common than not in common. I hear a lot of people say we don’t care about what you do with your livestock as long as you harvest them humanely just leave our wildlife alone, we don’t want our wildlife behind fences and we want to protect our wildlife from your livestock. I say ditto to that. It is something we should be able to work out. We can expect many other ligitimate concerns from both sides. We need to hear them so we can deal with them.
We have an opportunity to get some consensus on some issues, protect our wildlife and give the Kentucky farmers a chance to make a living.
If you agree in general give me a call to set this up. What do we have to loose? Constant fighting and division between sportsmen? Let the bureaucrats and the politicians set policy instead of us?

[Multidigits]

Lou, just what is your agenda? Why not clear that up here to start the dialog for any meeting Ronnie might want to set up. I think most sportsman, outside of those of you directly involved with the farming industry believe that rules in place are needed and that most agree with them. If you could be specific and point out the problem, and why it matters to you who regulates those rules, then I think it would help???

[schuyler olt]

Lou,

I met you at the League convention, and enjoyed our brief conversation, which didn't focus on cervids.

Obviously, the sportsman's primary hot button right now is CWD and their position is understandable. They clearly want the KDFWR to oversee regulation of the industry.

Conversely, I can see the side of the cervid producers, particularly wanting to be free from unreasonable restrictions. You folks seem to want to be entirely under the Ag Department, a position that raises great suspicion in the mind of the sportsman.

The KDFWR has, among other things, a statutory responsibility to essentially safeguard the wildlife population. Clearly, the KDFWR has the right to regulate against any practice that is detrimental or poses a threat to the resource. But the Ag department has no such responsibility. Captive cervids don't pose much of a threat to domesticated livestock and, aside from CWD, those threats can be discovered through live testing. While Ag may quake in fear of mad cow disease, they will not see CWD as the potential threat that the KDFWR sees it to the deer and elk hunting industry.

So that's why I firmly believe that the KDFWR is the appropriate agency to oversee regulation of the cervid industry. But that leaves the $24,000 question.

Will the KDFWR REASONABLY regulate the industry, balancing the critical need to protect the wild herd from CWD against allowing enough latitude that you guys can make a fair profit?

I guess my question is this--what is it that really gives you heartburn about the manner that the KDFWR has regulated your business in the past?

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Lou,

While Ag may quake in fear of mad cow disease, they will not see CWD as the potential threat that the KDFWR sees it to the deer and elk hunting industry.



I have personally seen The Commissioner of Agriculture Richie Farmer attended meetings, visited farms, implement plans to make sure our farms are complying with our CWD programs, create a Task force, attend meetings after meetings for almost a year to see how to protect Kentucky from CWD. While at the same time KDFWR was telling the TSE task force that they could not issue cervid facility permits because of the Governors Executive Order. We now know that what they advised the TSE task force was not true. The Ag. Department does not have a dog in the fight, but they sure are not going to let CWD come inn to Kentucky on their watch.



Will the KDFWR REASONABLY regulate the industry, balancing the critical need to protect the wild herd from CWD against allowing enough latitude that you guys can make a fair profit?

Can an agency regulate an industry it does not want to exist? Obviously not!









I guess my question is this--what is it that really gives you heartburn about the manner that the KDFWR has regulated your business in the past?

:(
Schuyler the KDFWR does not want us to exist as an industry. They don’t let us operate our businesses. We have been under one moratorium or another since the fall of 2001. KDFWR agreed with the Legislature to define our industry as livestock, the (deer and elk farmers) producers agreed with KDFWR to enter a CWD health-monitoring program under the Dept. of Ag. which would allow us to work and protect Kentucky wildlife and our livestock from CWD. We invested thousand of dollars to implement the CWD program. Everyone agreed I gave (LKS) a copy of the agreement . KDFWR broke the agreement and almost 3 years later we are still under the Gov. Executive Order. The importation of Elk from western states during an importation moratorium declared by KDFWR due to a CWD scare and the 19 Violations of the Governors Executive Order clearly indicate that the KDFWR could care less about CWD. CWD is being use as a tool by KDFWR to get what they want from the sportsman’s and attempt to take what they want from the farmer. For almost a year I asked at the TSE task force meetings , why don’t they (KDFWR) approve issuing any cervid facility permits? Is there any clinical evidence that indicates that there is a disease risk by opening a new facility and stocking the facility with Kentucky cervids? No we cant issue any cervid facility permits they (KDFWR) said to the TSE task force, the Governors Executive Order will not allow us to do that. Now we find out that yes indeed they issued illegally 19 cervid facility permits. Plain Lawbreakers to me. So you tell me, who sincerely cares about our wildlife or spreading CWD in Kentucky? Not KDFWR, not to protect wildlife and for sure not to protect our livestock. We deserve better and we should demand better.

The only way we will achieve this is working together and knowing what is important to both industries. We have allowed this by not working together. We now have an opportunity to at least try.



What gives me heart-burn you ask?:mad:

[BUCKHEAVEN]

Multi,

Please read post#20 by bowhunter 10 I put my name on it and all the other posts by me. You will get a good idea what my agenda is. You ask what is my agenda? Sincere concern for our wildlife and our domesticated deer and elk that are our private property. After your read my posts I will gladly answer any questions you have privately or in public forumn.:)

Lou

[Multidigits]

Multi,

Please read post#20 by bowhunter 10 I put my name on it and all the other posts by me. You will get a good idea what my agenda is. You ask what is my agenda? Sincere concern for our wildlife and our domesticated deer and elk that are our private property. After your read my posts I will gladly answer any questions you have privately or in public forumn.:)

Lou

Post 20 looks like a bio of yourself. Most of us know who you are. We or at least I want to know your agenda, or what you want the LKS to help get done for you. I don't believe that the sportsmen, that make up the LKS are aware of the issues, but also don't believe that most of those same will approve of canned hunts, or much relaxation of the Exex Order as it now stands.

IF you can list specifics of what you want from us, maybe we can discuss those that might be possible?


Lou, just got the report on the 19 permits, looks like TB was trying to work with deer farmers instead of against them by putting out those 19. Seems like that effort wasn't appreciated by the farmers, even though it cost him his job.

[Multidigits]

and the 19 Violations of the Governors Executive Order ..............illegally 19 cervid facility permits. Plain Lawbreakers to me.




Lou, help me understand which of these 19 permit holders are criminals and should not be allowed to hold those permits. Maybe the LKS could help get those permits revoked somehow, if they are in fact a danger to the health of the wild cervid population????

1 - Was a permitted rehabilitator from 1999-2003. Issued a captive cervid permit for holding non-releasable whitetails.



2 - Prior to executive order, permit holder was working with Fish & Wildlife officers to construct facility. In the summer of 2002, the facility was 90% complete. Upon completion of facility, a permit was issued. Facility was expanded in the summer of 2004



3 - Prior to executive order, permit holder held a lease on land for a facility, which was not going to be renewed. He worked with Fish & Wildlife officers to construct a facility on his own land, where he moved animals from the leased land. However, he did not lose his lease, and still holds cervids at the leased property. He was issued a conditional permit on 7/30/02, a permit for his leased facility on 5/30/03, and a permit for his private facility on 9/26/03.



4 - Self-reported (fall 2003) owner of 5 whitetail deer in captivity. Fish & Wildlife officers worked with this individual to bring his facility into compliance with existing regulations after the executive order. Prior to the final permit which was issued on 10/1/03, owner was issued a conditional permit on 9/15/03.



5 - Individual was issued a conditional permit on 7/30/02. He was then issued a captive cervid permit for his facility.



6 - Educational institution, which was exempt from permit requirements in the past. With adoption of the captive cervid regulations, facility was brought into compliance and issued a captive cervid permit.



7 - Educational institution, which was exempt from permit requirements in the past. With adoption of the captive cervid regulations, facility was brought into compliance and issued a captive cervid permit.



8 - Educational institution, which was exempt from permit requirements in the past. With adoption of the captive cervid regulations, facility was brought into compliance and issued a captive cervid permit.



9 - Individual was a permitted pet and propagation permit holder for whitetails from 12/18/00 through 12/18/03. Fish & Wildlife officers helped to bring his facility into compliance with regulations.



10 - Individual was a permitted pet and propagation permit holder for whitetails from 9/24/96 through 9/24/97. Fish & Wildlife officers helped to bring his facility into compliance with regulations.



11 - Individual transported illegal cervids into Kentucky and offered them for sale to an undercover Fish & Wildlife officer. Animals were confiscated and destroyed on 2/14/03. However, Fish & Wildlife officers helped him bring his facility into compliance to keep one legally acquired reindeer from a breeder in Kentucky.



12 - Individual acquired a whitetail fawn in 2001. Fish & Wildlife officers helped bring facility into compliance with regulations.



13 - Individual held two whitetails as pets since they were fawns. Fish & Wildlife officers helped bring facility into compliance with regulations.



14 - Individual worked with Fish & Wildlife officers since early 2002 on constructing a captive cervid facility. Whitetails were purchased prior to the executive order. Fish & Wildlife officers helped bring facility into compliance with regulations.



15 - Individual purchased a home and permitted captive cervid facility (for one pet whitetail). Fish & Wildlife transferred the permit



16 - Individual held whitetails as pets prior to executive order. Fish & Wildlife officers helped bring facility into compliance with regulations.



17 - Individual owned a fallow deer prior to executive order. After Fish & Wildlife officers discovered the pen, they helped bring the facility into compliance with regulations.



18 - Was a permitted rehabilitator since 2000. Issued a captive cervid permit for holding non-releasable whitetails.



19 - Individual owned a reindeer and muntjac prior to executive order. After Fish & Wildlife officers discovered the facility, they helped bring it into compliance with regulations.

[BUCKHEAVEN]

:rolleyes: Multi,

When the Governor of Kentucky issues and Executive Order it becomes the LAW of the land. KDFWR violated the law 19 times and you are ok with this. The law was passed primarily at the request of KDFWR to protect our wildlife from CWD and KDFWR violated the law 19 times and you are ok with this.
And you really think that TB was doing favors for farmers. Explain, did some of the farmers do favors for TB?
If you had broken a Governors Executive Order 19 times, you would be up the river in a cold jail cell. Don’t take it so lightly.
Dont you care about laws broken that are suppose to protect our wildlife???:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And we wonder why our wildlife department is the way it is.

[Multidigits]

:rolleyes: Multi,

When the Governor of Kentucky issues and Executive Order it becomes the LAW of the land. KDFWR violated the law 19 times and you are ok with this. The law was passed primarily at the request of KDFWR to protect our wildlife from CWD and KDFWR violated the law 19 times and you are ok with this.
And you really think that TB was doing favors for farmers. Explain, did some of the farmers do favors for TB?
If you had broken a Governors Executive Order 19 times, you would be up the river in a cold jail cell. Don’t take it so lightly.
Dont you care about laws broken that are suppose to protect our wildlife???:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And we wonder why our wildlife department is the way it is.



Lou, we're not connecting here. Your trying to tell us that the Dept. has conspired to put you out of business. When in fact, TB wrote 19 permits that ended up putting out of a job, to help you out(meaning the 19 farmers). Now your telling us that they shouldn't have allowed these 19 permitted facilities to operate?

If 17 of these operations are suggested by the auditor that they should have been grandfather in because they had started before the order, then why is it an issue now?

Now, you didn't answer the question. which or how many of these 19 should be shut down? The report says maybe two--are you OK with two of them going down or do you want all them to go down???

As for laws broken meant to protect our wildlife, it's clear that the auditor thinks that the operations were in compliance before the permits were allowed. Still this looks like that TB bent over backwards to help out the game farmers. Explain how that isn't the case with these 19 permits.

Last, do you recommend that the sportsmen of the commonweath demand that these 19 facilities be shut down to protect the wild game populations.

[Papaw]

How can you call people with 1 or 2 pets or institutions farmers? How did this help the farmers when they KDFWR turned down many ligitimate reguest for permits during this time? I don't know the details of the people who were issued the permits in violation of the Exec. order. I can see by the information provided in the audit that many of the people were evidently containing animals with out permits which was against KDFWR regulations. With the exception of 1 or 2 of these permits they had nothing to do with farmers. The people that received the permits did not break the Exec. order they have spent their hard earned dollars to build their facilities. How can you even suggest that the LKS or any one should punish individuals for abiding by KDFWR regulation.
The Exec order is very clear that it is issued to the agency or Dept that controls the issuing of the permits. Punish the innocent to protect the guilty is that the right way? The quilty are the people who issued and signed the permits who ever they are.

[BUCKHEAVEN]

:) Multi,



I will try one more time. It was KDFWR that primarily recommended to the Governor to issue the Executive Order almost 3 years ago because of the alleged threat of CWD. It is KDFWR that still recommends that the Executive Order (the law) stay in effect alleging a fear of CWD. It is the KDFWR that said it would be detrimental to Kentucky (due to CWD) to issue cervid facility permits. If allegedly CWD is so devastating and so detrimental why did they issue permits? Did KDFWR violate the order; yes any donkey can realize that. Are the permits issued illegal? Ask an attorney. Should the permitted facilities be shut down? No. No need to punish hard working people, only the ones that break the law. Did KDFWR discriminate against other Kentucky citizens that requested cervid facilities permits but were denied? Obvious they did. Did KDFWR lie to the TSE Task Force task force (created by Commissioner Farmer to develop disease policy to protect our livestock and our wildlife) by advising the members that they KDFWR could not issue cervid facility permits because of the Executive Order when they in fact did. Yes. Can anyone control this State agency?? We will see.





The question you should be asking your self is the KDFWR using CWD to manipulate you, me, the Legislature, the Governor, the Commerce Cabinet and the Wildlife Commission and if CWD is as devastating as you have been led to believe by KDFWR. I think the answer is crystal clear. We have all been misled and you can determine that by the action taken by KDFWR. You make up your own mind.





P.S. Now tell me Multi was the crossbow issues a smoke screen or not?:)

[Multidigits]

Lou, I'll say again that most sportsmen will support the Exec. Order, and some even want to make it permnant, as you well know. The threat od CWD is real, and you've alluded to it yourself several times. Even trying to scare folks into believing that it may already be here from the elk project. CWD is not alledged by any means.

Judging by the report of the audit, it's obvious to me that none of those permits were issued haphazardly. Looks like grounds for issuing all but two of them could easily be made without much trouble. Even those out to find fault with the permits mentioned that all of the permits except two should remain in effect.


No sense arguing that the permits should or shouldn't have been issued. Why not just tell us if you tried to obtain a permit during that time frame? If that had been issued, would this still be a hot item on your agenda? IF it's such a hot item, why not just shut down all 19 of those permitted facilities asap?
Or why not applaud the agency for trying to work with farmers to help those 10 to stay in business??? Tough questions Lou. I'd still like to know why you think this is an issue for the LKS and just exactly you want the LKS to do for your group?

P.S. Now tell me Multi was the crossbow issues a smoke screen or not?:)

I don't think so, others do. Maybe if I tried to get a cervid permit instead of a crossbow season, I'd have been more successful?

[spurs]

All of this is getting rather long, confussing, and repetative. I thought the whole idea to this meeting was to discuss weather or not to make a recomendation as to should the KDF&W regulate all cervid farms in the state, or just the ones that are shooting preserves. The way I understand, this just one federation, and not the whole league at this time.
It appears to me that we are just running laps. I think, if indeed the LKS is acting as represenatives for the sportsmen of Ky. we need to