View Full Version : Indiana bans High Fence “Hunting”
Willie
08-11-2005, 04:55 PM
Deleted.. I didn't see Multi's before I posted..
I'm to slow on the draw for Multi.. ;)
Gobblergetter2.1
08-11-2005, 05:44 PM
Its about time someone wised up!
I didn't see Multis post, but I'm sure glad to hear it.. If other states will follow, and ban "canned" hunts as well the sport will be in much better shape IMO.
I didn't see Multis post, but I'm sure glad to hear it.. If other states will follow, and ban "canned" hunts as well the sport will be in much better shape IMO.
Here it is
http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17727
damon kustes
08-11-2005, 09:05 PM
it's the The first step....next it will be illegal to hunt free ranging animals....
It is the same as gun control.......take away a little at a time till it is all gone....
Fenced hunting isn't my cup of tea but it's not my place to judge someone who does.............This is badddddd for the future of hunting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about hunting over a feeder......when thats outlawed ... the next step will be to ban hunting by a corn field. or a soy bean field...............
Just because someone else doesn't see deer on the level that you do doesn't make what they do wrong.......
Hunting is a personal thing...Everyone has a different reason for doing it.....
they have given the anti's a victory here...................
Lets here it guys what do you say????????!!!!!!
it's the The first step....next it will be illegal to hunt free ranging animals....
It is the same as gun control.......take away a little at a time till it is all gone....
Fenced hunting isn't my cup of tea but it's not my place to judge someone who does.............This is badddddd for the future of hunting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about hunting over a feeder......when thats outlawed ... the next step will be to ban hunting by a corn field. or a soy bean field...............
Just because someone else doesn't see deer on the level that you do doesn't make what they do wrong.......
Hunting is a personal thing...Everyone has a different reason for doing it.....
they have given the anti's a victory here...................
Lets here it guys what do you say????????!!!!!!
You can't hunt, so why do you need a firearm? That's the next line of BS
daking
08-11-2005, 11:54 PM
Before we roundly condemn the ban on high fence hunting, let us consider two more things:
1) The high fence ranches banned in Indiana were perfect potential breeding grounds for CWD. When deer are imported to a non-cwd state, the possibility of bringing the disease in is great. Then, laws or no laws, we're screwed.
2) The image presented by high fence hunting is detrimental to the sport. It will be used against us. Want proof? Look at the dvd produced by the NWF that depicts the evidence that was gathered against the high fence operator/violator who started the movement in Indiana to bar high fence hunting. Then, look at the fund for animals/HSUS video (on their website) regarding high fence hunting. What it amounts to is that our hunting rights may well be the subject of a vote someday. A quick look at the evidence gathered in the Indiana case would make a true hunter be ashamed and willing to legislate against it.
This is a tricky issue. Before adopting a position, each of us should study it. For my money, the disease risks are too great to allow the forced concentration of any game animal. Of course, there are differing opinions.
Terry Sullivan
it's the The first step....next it will be illegal to hunt free ranging animals....
It is the same as gun control.......take away a little at a time till it is all gone....
Fenced hunting isn't my cup of tea but it's not my place to judge someone who does.............This is badddddd for the future of hunting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about hunting over a feeder......when thats outlawed ... the next step will be to ban hunting by a corn field. or a soy bean field...............
Just because someone else doesn't see deer on the level that you do doesn't make what they do wrong.......
Hunting is a personal thing...Everyone has a different reason for doing it.....
they have given the anti's a victory here...................
Lets here it guys what do you say????????!!!!!!
I disagree. High fence hunting and it's various forms are NOT hunting IMO. It's an attempt for big money and commercialization to get its hands on a simple tradition and extort it... It's a lame and easy way for people with money who are either too lazy or just don't want to put in the work it takes to kill a deer to say they are a hunter.. They are only successful purely on the level of being able to say they "killed" a nice deer. It's practically one step away from buying a deer already killed..
If you guys think it's respectful to the animal and to the sport to commercialize hunts by putting them up for bid on Ebay, be my guest.. To me, anyone who relies on money, fences, and caged animals to be successful doesn't have any damn business hunting in the first place and are a disgrace to all of us true hunters... It's made a mockery of our sport and it GIVES anti's ammunition to lump all hunters together as a bunch of blood thirsty, lazy ***** who are only out for the kill and have no respect for anything other than their money bought pride.. I don't care how others see deer, this is not the way hunting is suppost to be. If you want to put a bunch of animals behind a fence all their life and sell them off, raise some damn cattle. There's a reason the words hunting and cattle aren't used together, and thats also why people that work at slaughter houses are not called hunters.
turk2di
08-12-2005, 06:22 AM
I disagree. High fence hunting and it's various forms are NOT hunting IMO. It's an attempt for big money and commercialization to get its hands on a simple tradition and extort it... It's a lame and easy way for people with money who are either too lazy or just don't want to put in the work it takes to kill a deer to say they are a hunter.. They are only successful purely on the level of being able to say they "killed" a nice deer. It's practically one step away from buying a deer already killed..
If you guys think it's respectful to the animal and to the sport to commercialize hunts by putting them up for bid on Ebay, be my guest.. To me, anyone who relies on money, fences, and caged animals to be successful doesn't have any damn business hunting in the first place and are a disgrace to all of us true hunters... It's made a mockery of our sport and it GIVES anti's ammunition to lump all hunters together as a bunch of blood thirsty, lazy ***** who are only out for the kill and have no respect for anything other than their money bought pride.. I don't care how others see deer, this is not the way hunting is suppost to be. If you want to put a bunch of animals behind a fence all their life and sell them off, raise some damn cattle. There's a reason the words hunting and cattle aren't used together, and thats also why people that work at slaughter houses are not called hunters.
Very well put;)
KYhunter
08-12-2005, 06:32 AM
Some thin ice here. Points to ponder. Ever think that CWD found in enclosed areas is easier discovered just because that area IS enclosed? Ever come across an animal dead in the wild and wonder what caused ITS demise? Of course we test those animals don't we? Also, do some folks chastise others about the size of buck THEY decide to harvest? Seems what is a trophy to one is not a trophy to another. Did not a number of posters here at Kentuckyhunting.net have a wonder time, some with their children, at a pheasant hunt last fall? Nice of those birds to raise themselves in the wild, then show up at the hunt ready for harvest. Finally, how many folks are a little sqweemish about shooting a bull(or cow) elk with an orange collar? Guys, this is not meant to stir up dust, rather a point or two to consider.
Multidigits
08-12-2005, 07:43 AM
Some thin ice here. Points to ponder. Ever think that CWD found in enclosed areas is easier discovered just because that area IS enclosed? No doubt, it's easier to find it in a pen than in the wild, especially when rate of occurance is many times more, and the number of animals in pens is a fraction of those in the wild. The history of the movement of cervids tell us where it started, and where it was spread to and how and by whom.
Ever come across an animal dead in the wild and wonder what caused ITS demise? Happens all the time. Still no known CWD in Indiana or Ky. and if it was here, we'd likely know about it, just like we did with the bluetongue a couple of years ago.
Of course we test those animals don't we? We test, not all but we do test each fall in samples.
Also, do some folks chastise others about the size of buck THEY decide to harvest? Seems what is a trophy to one is not a trophy to another. Sure we do, but we don't sell by the inch or sell drug induced deer, which is what happen in Indiana and led to this emergancy order.
Did not a number of posters here at Kentuckyhunting.net have a wonder time, some with their children, at a pheasant hunt last fall? Nice of those birds to raise themselves in the wild, then show up at the hunt ready for harvest. Not even close to relevant. Many of those birds escaped that day. No deer in a 5 acre shooting pen will escape, and in no way can you call it a sport. The pheasants all had some chance, maybe not like in the wild, but damn close. And that can easily be proved by those that were there, and by the accounts of how many didn't end up in the bag.
Finally, how many folks are a little sqweemish about shooting a bull(or cow) elk with an orange collar? Guys, this is not meant to stir up dust, rather a point or two to consider. Ky. elk hunting is not 100% like in the west. But they are free ranging and wild and do have the ability to escape. At some point, they will get a little bit harder and more like a deer in evading the hunters. Fear of man will be learned, which seems to be lacking a bit now. Still vastly different than hunting behind a fence, especially a shooting pen.
There's no doubt that Beller could have provided nearly fair chase hunts on his 1200 acre fenced enclosure, but decided not too because of greed and money. And some of his clients demanded it. The sportsmen of Indiana demanded that it stop, and that's where we're at today.
grouseguy
08-12-2005, 09:20 AM
it's the The first step....next it will be illegal to hunt free ranging animals....
It is the same as gun control.......take away a little at a time till it is all gone....
Fenced hunting isn't my cup of tea but it's not my place to judge someone who does.............This is badddddd for the future of hunting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about hunting over a feeder......when thats outlawed ... the next step will be to ban hunting by a corn field. or a soy bean field...............
Just because someone else doesn't see deer on the level that you do doesn't make what they do wrong.......
Hunting is a personal thing...Everyone has a different reason for doing it.....
they have given the anti's a victory here...................
Lets here it guys what do you say????????!!!!!!
That's an interesting perspective and one that I probably agree with. Personally, and these are just my views, I see more of a threat to our sport from us shooting ourselves in the foot, than from the potential spread of CWD. Based on my understanding of the facts/theories regarding CWD, I see it as basically a non-issue, and certainly not worth the time and resources that have been, and are being, used fighting this futile effort.
For those of you who support the NRA, and admittedly I'm not one of them although I fully support the 2nd amendment, I notice that the NRA constantly fights EVERY perceived attack on gun rights no matter how big or small, with the theory that they can't afford to let the anti-gun crowd "gain an inch or they'll take a mile". If you are a NRA supporter who believes in that tactic, how do you reconcile looking the other way, while someone whittles away at the opportunities available to one group of hunters? Keep in mind that not all high fence operations drug, measure and sell by the inch like the Indiana operation does, but offers packages much closer to fair chase, along with offering an outlet for the use of what I understand are large quantities of over-produced zoo animals (exotics). High fences may not be your cup of tea, (mine either) but if they are banned on moral/ethical grounds, will bowhunting, trapping, etc. be that far behind.
Consider the recent crossbow vs verticle bow fire storm. Many felt that it was one group of hunters being "elitist" in their views and looking down on another form of hunter opportunity as being less challenging, etc. I think you could easily draw a parallel here as "fair chase hunters" are attempting to separate themselves by higher self-proclaimed ethics from "high fence shooters". If you supported the use of crossbows against the claims of the traditional verticle bowhunters, how do you reconcile your beliefs about restricting the opportunities of other outdoorsmen who might want a zebra rug via a high fence operation?
Just consider this from every angle, both pro and con, before jumping on a band wagon. Personally, I hunt for my own enjoyment, period, and I don't think that someone pursuing exotics (or cervids) behind a high fence will have any impact on my own self-satisfaction that I gain from my own experiences.
Willie
08-12-2005, 09:21 AM
If you fellers could see the video that Multi sent me it would change quite few minds on "fenced hunting"..
It is hunting pornography....
Multidigits
08-12-2005, 09:59 AM
[QUOTE=grouseguy]That's an interesting perspective and one that I probably agree with. Personally, and these are just my views, I see more of a threat to our sport from us shooting ourselves in the foot, than from the potential spread of CWD. Based on my understanding of the facts/theories regarding CWD, I see it as basically a non-issue, and certainly not worth the time and resources that have been, and are being, used fighting this futile effort.
It certainly wasn't a "non-issue" for the hunters of Indiana, who mobilized, attended public meetings, and got their voice heard in the process. No body in the whitetail and elk business considers CWD a non-issue. Sure some mistakes have been made in those states that have found positive results from CWD testing. Still it's a separate issue from the canned hunting business that has made the headlines lately. All of that is a negative in the eyes of non-hunters. Overall, to say it's a non-issues isn't very smart, and surely is out of touch with the issue at hand.
For those of you who support the NRA, and admittedly I'm not one of them although I fully support the 2nd amendment, I notice that the NRA constantly fights EVERY perceived attack on gun rights no matter how big or small, with the theory that they can't afford to let the anti-gun crowd "gain an inch or they'll take a mile". If you are a NRA supporter who believes in that tactic, how do you reconcile looking the other way, while someone whittles away at the opportunities available to one group of hunters? Keep in mind that not all high fence operations drug, measure and sell by the inch like the Indiana operation does, but offers packages much closer to fair chase, along with offering an outlet for the use of what I understand are large quantities of over-produced zoo animals (exotics). High fences may not be your cup of tea, (mine either) but if they are banned on moral/ethical grounds, will bowhunting, trapping, etc. be that far behind.
Mark is a democrat and a hard liner at that. They don't support gun owner rights very often, hardly ever really. The NRA always does, and always will. Those of you that enjoy the shooting sports do it today because of the NRA--like it or not. Ask the Clinton's about their gun stance and see if they like the NRA?
But Mark is correct that not all fenced facilities offer canned hunts. It's a matter of choice. What happened in Indiana has nothing to do with what happens in Ky. at those places. But what happened in Indiana shows a need for a look at what is happening in Ky. and some changes to make sure that what happened in Ind. recently, doesn't happen in Ky.
Consider the recent crossbow vs verticle bow fire storm. Many felt that it was one group of hunters being "elitist" in their views and looking down on another form of hunter opportunity as being less challenging, etc. I think you could easily draw a parallel here as "fair chase hunters" are attempting to separate themselves by higher self-proclaimed ethics from "high fence shooters". If you supported the use of crossbows against the claims of the traditional verticle bowhunters, how do you reconcile your beliefs about restricting the opportunities of other outdoorsmen who might want a zebra rug via a high fence operation?
Easy, it has to be done right. what happened in Indiana wasn't right. No one, not even the game farmers would admit to condoning what Bellers's Place did. Other facilities can and do do things a lot differently. We need to insure that they all do.
Just consider this from every angle, both pro and con, before jumping on a band wagon. Personally, I hunt for my own enjoyment, period, and I don't think that someone pursuing exotics (or cervids) behind a high fence will have any impact on my own self-satisfaction that I gain from my own experiences
If high fence operations are to exist and allowed to operate, they need to police themselves, by making sure the things that happened in Indiana at Beller's Place do not ever happen in Ky.
lymanl3
08-12-2005, 10:44 AM
Multi, you said it right "The sportsmen of Indiana demanded that it stop, and that's where we're at today".
Lyman
KYhunter
08-12-2005, 05:34 PM
Thanks for setting me straight on my opinions.
grouseguy
08-12-2005, 06:19 PM
Thanks for setting me straight on my opinions.
Priceless!!!;)
kycowboy
08-12-2005, 06:29 PM
Get'em Art and Multi very well said
LBL HUNTER
08-12-2005, 06:58 PM
If they were to ban "high fence" (or as i like to call it...sissy...i don't know how to hunt) hunting in Texas, you would read about a mass suicide of Texas deer hunters!!!
(man i bet the texas hunters will love me for that one...but i couldn't resist)
Multidigits
08-12-2005, 07:02 PM
I think there would be a big difference to hunting on 10,000 acres high fenced verse a 5 acre or smaller killing pen. Size of the facility makes a difference, as does how the hunting is conducted.
aceoky
08-12-2005, 07:35 PM
MUCH of Africa is fenced(though it's thousands of acres); I would imagine(since I've never been there, but love to read about it):D it would be hard to see much(if any) of the fence(s), and that would I think change THAT particular hunting situation???
BTW , Africa uses the fences to accomplish many things; for example; at one time a certain part was fenced to protect livestock from hoof and mouth from the wild population(now it's the "other way around") :) Other parts are to allow the population to reproduce without as many losses from "big cats"(though lions aren't that big of a problem, according to what I've seen written)...there are MANY big cats, that make daily kills it seems over there....
I think most of us can agree ; that there IS a big differernce in a small versus a large fenced operation? IF the operation IS large enough, and you don't see the fences are they REALLY there?(attempt at humor based on the tree falling in the woods):D
JDMiller
08-12-2005, 11:55 PM
Some close friends of mine went to South Africa bowhunting this year . They found out just what aceoky just stated . Lots of high fence ....surrounding thousands of acres . They went with a outfitter located about 3 hours south of Johannasburg(sp.) and the areas they hunted were mostly waterholes with groundblinds . The thought of the fence bothered them a little at first until they realized the opperation had about 50,000 acres fenced . They told me they hunted different locations daily and never seen the fence except at the entrance of the lodge . Lions were the primary reason along with disease spread from animals in neighboring villages . I know the disease thing sounds kinda reversed... I think of the animals being diseased inside the fence but apparently it was common practice to keep the domesticated animals away from the wild animals .
They were all successful taking 4 animals a piece . Impala , Blessed Buck , Gemsbuck ,Oryx , Wildabeast and Zebra were all on their trophy list. Including their mounts , hunt-food-lodging , air fare the trip cost them real close to $10,000 a piece . It was a trip of a lifetime but it was a little too costly for me .
That being said .... Africa...Texas ....the size of the operation definitely plays a factor . Normaly fenced operations dont appeal to me . Free ranging animals would be a determining factor for me to hunt anywhere ... but in these circumstances with fenced areas expressed in miles or kilometers ... I would make a exception.
chadwimc
08-16-2005, 04:46 PM
Can somebody post a link to these "canned hunt" videos? I tried the 'net. All I get is PETA propaganda. I'd really like to see the famous fisherman who gets deer driven by his stand. One of my deer hunting videos(I can't remember which one) has a scene where a deer is hit by an arrow. Just as the deer jumps, you can see an ear tag. Just like the ones cattle have. I remarked to my wife just the other day, while watching Knight and Hale,that I've got several nice deer over the years, and I got 'em by fair chase.
6.5x55swedish
08-17-2005, 05:26 AM
Okay guy's. Slippery slope is not an acceptable argument. Show us an instance where a ban on one item in an issue led to an all out ban on the issue. If you can't make at least a good argument for what you believe will happen then don't waste our reading time by posting poorly constructed arguments. IMOit's the The first step....next it will be illegal to hunt free ranging animals....
It is the same as gun control.......take away a little at a time till it is all gone....
Fenced hunting isn't my cup of tea but it's not my place to judge someone who does.............This is badddddd for the future of hunting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about hunting over a feeder......when thats outlawed ... the next step will be to ban hunting by a corn field. or a soy bean field...............
Just because someone else doesn't see deer on the level that you do doesn't make what they do wrong.......
Hunting is a personal thing...Everyone has a different reason for doing it.....
they have given the anti's a victory here...................
Lets here it guys what do you say????????!!!!!!
aceoky
08-19-2005, 03:31 PM
Okay guy's. Slippery slope is not an acceptable argument. Show us an instance where a ban on one item in an issue led to an all out ban on the issue. If you can't make at least a good argument for what you believe will happen then don't waste our reading time by posting poorly constructed arguments. IMO
NOT in the U.S.(but that wasn't the question):D
In England; when the use of the crossbow was going to be allowed some "traditional" hunters argued the x-bow was "inhumane" they studied that ; and guess what? The next thing you know the entire practice of bowhunting was outlawed because "they" decided it all was inhumane!!!!
IF it happened there(as it did) then it CAN happen here as well(our system is based loosley on theirs).......
Any questions?
:D :D :D
damon kustes
08-20-2005, 05:44 PM
has gotten it's nose under the tent......
Xi Bowhunter
08-21-2005, 01:10 PM
High fence hunting is not for me, but money makes this world go round, and you can't blame the high fence companys for trying to get a piece of the pie. I don't like it just as much as most of you all don't, and I would like to see it banned. Because hunting in finces is not hunting at all. We hunters work too hard at our sport to be out-done by some ceo hunting in a pen. Let them try the real thing and see how good their hunting skills really are!
KYhunter
08-21-2005, 04:01 PM
damon, you are soooooo right!
Okay guy's. Slippery slope is not an acceptable argument. Show us an instance where a ban on one item in an issue led to an all out ban on the issue. If you can't make at least a good argument for what you believe will happen then don't waste our reading time by posting poorly constructed arguments. IMO
Try checking out the states that have banned leg-hold traps and see the impact to the fur trade.
Multidigits
08-22-2005, 04:32 PM
Several states already outlaw CANNED HUNTS. Far as I know, it's not opened any doors or caused any camels to get in anyones tents.
Like a big dummy, I wasn't aware that the cervid farmers in Kentucky were "primarily" raising thir deer for sale to high fence operations in Kentucky and other states. Somebody, please correct me if I am wrong here.
In general, I am against high fence pen hunting where animals aren't given a fair chance. A fair chance would not be 10 acres for example, and it still may not be fair if the hunt takes place in a 1,000 acres if the deer walk the fence line and look to humans as food providers. Where is the sport in this? How could any human feel good about harvesting an animal like this?
I would probably support a ban on high fence hunting in KY for deer. I am not sure if it is ok just to look the other way while the rich and famous kill a deer in an enclosure just so they can put the head over the fire place an look cool. There is nothing ethical about the hunt, and after all, aren't we supposed to be stewards of our wildlife.
I think that as sportsmen, we are duty bound to protect the sport of hunting from unethical practices. The lack of hunting ethics involved in high fence deer hunting outweigh the commercial rights of those involved in raising, selling, and hunting high fence deer.
K
Multidigits
08-22-2005, 05:11 PM
There's adifference in hunting behind a fence, and a canned hunt behind a fence. The resolution by the LKS dealt with canned hunting, not legit hunts of any kind behind a fence.
What resolution?
Regardless, I am aware that some hunts behind a fence could be legitimate. Until some regulations are put into effect that controls these type hunts though, I will just assume that most aren't legitimate. I am not talking about Africa either.
K
I assume the resolution you are talking about was the one voted on at the LKS Convention.?
My comments were really directed at this thread and not about the LKS Resolution.
K
Multidigits
08-22-2005, 05:24 PM
Yes, the Indiana deal is different. It bans all hunting behind fences because the installations have been operating under a game bird breeders permit. It doesn't allow hunting outside of teh normal seasons.
aceoky
08-23-2005, 12:31 PM
Try checking out the states that have banned leg-hold traps and see the impact to the fur trade.
Rick; that's a VERY good point!!! Once "they" get their "foot in the door" they are very hard to get rid of!
Some fail to realize that the "PETA" types; KNOW this isn't an easy to win battle, so they take it "one slice at a time" enough "slices" and then "it's all over with" (in their views)..... Every victory(however small) aids them in their "battle plan" , and $$$ isn't a problem for these groups......
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