Who heads small game at KDFWR

[perrymax]

Is there someone who heads a small game division of KDFWR?I know there is a person in place for deer,turkey and migratory birds.

[Darton73]

His title is Grasslands System Program Coordinator (I think thats right) and his name is Brian Smith - super nice guy.



Brian Grossman
Darton73@alltel.net

[Valley Station]

Brian,
"Grasslands" coordinator responsible for wabbits and quail only??
Not many grouse and squirrels in our "grasslands".[:)][:I]

[grouseguy]

Adam,

I know you're new to the forums, and you're probably not aware of some of the struggles that the grouse hunters have had with the KDFWR. I think you will find that Jeff Sole is one of the two most hated men in the grouse woods of eastern KY (the other is still employed by the Dept[;)]). Mr. Sole may have been an expert (in his own mind), but he sure NEVER put any of that knowledge to use for the benefit of the grouse or the grouse hunters. Actually, the KDFWR has been the greatest impediment to better grouse hunting in KY.

Rather than get onto my soap box over the difficulties that the grouse hunters have experienced, if you want to know more, just ask myself or Birdman, and we'll be happy to bring you up to speed.



"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[grouseguy]

Adam;

Most of my info will come from the grouse hunter’s perspective, but in general, it holds true for all small game.

Jeff Sole started causing problems for the small game hunters in KY in the late eighties, when he started championing the idea of closing grouse season on December 31st rather than the traditional end of February date, although the research contradicted his theory. As recently as December, 2002, Deputy Commissioner, Roy Grimes (there’s your answer to your last question) was still trying to do the same thing by shutting down ALL small game seasons on December 31. Both of these attempts failed due to the overwhelming outcry from the small game hunters. Between these two attempts there has been a six year multi-state grouse study performed, known as the Appalachain Cooperative Grouse Research Project, that included one KY site (Yatesville WMA in Lawrence Co.). This study identified the causes of grouse mortality as being 78% predation, 16% hunting and 6% from unknown or natural causes. The KDFWR considered these numbers and concluded that HUNTING was the problem and the season should be shortened. Habitat improvements to reduce predation weren’t even considered, even though their own study indicated that predation was responsible for nearly five times the amount of mortality as hunting.

During this same period of time the KY Grouse Hunters Association through ongoing dialogue with the KDFWR was trying to get the Dept to support habitat improvement projects to help curtail predation through better habitat AND get the KDFWR to stop their ongoing grouse trapping/relocation project whereby they trapped grouse from eastern KY to relocate to western KY. The KDFWR spent in excess of $1 million over 20 years to trap/relocate in excess of 2000 grouse to western KY. Finally, due to the documented FAILURE of this Sole/Grimes project, trapping was reportedly stopped around 2000 although some grouse traps still appear. Also, all habitat work has been stopped on eastern KY WMA’s, by order of DC Grimes, under his belief that “the Dept’s holdings are too small to make an impact”. Throughout the years, Sole/Grimes have also stated such falsehoods as “The Corp of Engineers will not allow timber harvest” and “We don’t have the funds to complete habitat improvements to our WMA’s”. Through the efforts of members of the KY Grouse Hunters Association working with the Corp of Engineers, we got copies of the Corp regs and their leases with the KDFWR. Amazingly, the hunters had been misled for years by Sole/Grimes…in fact, the standard lease between the Corp and KDFWR, REQUIRES the Dept to perform habitat improvement projects on the leases, and the Corp regs identify timber harvest as an “acceptable practice” that even allows the Dept to keep the proceeds from the timber as long as they are returned to the property in the form of “acceptable uses”, one of which is HABITAT IMPROVEMENT. Therefore, the KDFWR was permitted all along to log the WMA’s and turn those proceeds into habitat improvements, which is something that their lease requires, all at a minimal cost to the KDFWR, but Sole/Grimes preferred to lie to the sportsmen, while actively working against us to shorten seasons.

To this day, Mr. Grimes, will attest to the fact that his priorities are big game and he has little interest in small game, which is amazing considering that 25 years ago there were few deer and no turkey or elk, and SMALL GAME Hunters and fishermen were the only groups supporting the KDFWR for the first 50 years of their existence.

The small game hunter continues to feel pressure from the KDFWR with expanded firearms deer season eroding the front end of the season, while Mr. Grimes would still love to close small game seasons earlier, thereby taking away opportunities on the back end of the season. The Dept will retort with “Small game seasons are still open during firearms deer seasons”, but in reality since most small game is pursued with the use of dogs, and most hunters will not run their dogs during open firearms deer seasons, the small game season is EFFECTIVELY closed.

It’s one thing for a governmental agency to ignore a group, which is bad enough, but it is something else to actively work against the wishes/needs/desires of the very people who have supported you throughout the years, and that you are supposed to represent.

There is more to the story, but hopefully this will illustrate the plight of the small game hunter against the actions and non-actions of the KDFWR.



"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[perrymax]

I'm with you,grouseguy!!!I'm scared to let my beagles run during deer gun season to.I'm scared at what would happen if somebody shot one of my dogs!!!I don't think KDFWR gets enough input from small game hunters.

[grouseguy]

Adam, can I venture a guess that you have formal education as a wildlife biologist? You use some of the same terminology and already have adopted some of the same excuses that we regularly hear from the KDFWR, so I bet you either work for the Dept or have the same educational background as some Dept employees.

I think we can sum up our differences about wildlife management by referring back to an old saying..."You dance with the one that brung you". I don't care that other groups are anti-hunting or environmental, there will always be pro and con factions of any subject, but if you are a governmental agency such as the KDFWR, whos express purpose is to represent the interests of hunters and wildlife, then by damn, I expect the KDFWR to represent the interests of hunters and wildlife and quit trying to pacify other groups who are diametrically opposed to their stated purpose.

On another subject that you mentioned...I really could care less that Roy and Jeff have had a falling out, I thought they were perfect for each other[:p], but what possible problem could Jeff have with a put & take pheasant shoot?



"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[grouseguy]

You haven't offended me with an honest difference of opinion, but if you keep challenging my eastern KY grammer, you might[;)]. We actually have a pretty good relationship with our local biologists, etc. It's the Dept politicians that make me want to get violent. There's nothing that you mentioned that couldn't be resolved by a little backbone, honest diplomacy and common sense.

BTW, I've done my share of fluffy control and will continue to do so.

I very well may be at the March meeting, it is my plan at this point, but who knows how work will affect that plan.



"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[Multidigits]

So Adam, do you work for the Dept. and who are those 3 that you mentioned???

Secondly, I agree with a lot of what your saying, except the part about logging. I've recently studied(for the shake of this very argument) the logging issue. I didn't see much support for the position that logging a section is particularly harmful to turkeys. What the Ky. Grouse Hunters want the Dept. to do is log sections(80 acres) and establish a rotation of these sections over a set number of years. I've got info from the Dept., from the NWTF, and from a couple of others that say this would even boost the turkey population if done right(not that it needs any help). In fact, every species will benefit from this practice and the Dept. might even make some needed cash from the timber sales. How it not being considered is mind boggling. And that's what we're after. Answers to "why not". Maybe you can help?????


I searched the KYDFW web site and found that 2 of those fellows you mention are PLBs. PLBs have recieved lots of praise from posters on this site. I didn't find Chris Garland or Adam Carter's names.

[Valley Station]

Multi,

Chris Garland is a KDFWR Wildlife Biologist, Upland Game Program .
He recently sent me some information on our grouse restoration effort.
Pleasant talkin' and helpful sort.[:)]

[schuyler olt]

Adam, turkeys LIKE clearcuts. In fact, the grouse and turkey are upland birds which, before market hunting, shared the same ranges and habitats. When we started restoring turkeys, the "science" was that they needed 600 acres of uniterrupted woods to sustain a relocated flock. As we see in almost every pasture today, that isn't the case. Personally, I believe that modern agricultural practices, particularly the modern soybean head that takes them off at the ground, have done much damage to small game habitat and therefore small game. Larger fields mean fewer fencerows and edges. As to grouse habitat, we see more and more every year on our lease in Meade County, and isn't it funny that we see them where we have built ponds and food plots in the wooded areas. What irritates me is that during the ten years I've been on the state board, we have been approached by the department to help fund almost every kind of habitat project under the sun EXCEPT a grouse project. Grouseguy is right on--the grouse is the forgotten species and the grouse hunter is the forgotten sportsman, and that desperately needs to change.

[schuyler olt]

Adam,
I probably get flamed more than anybody I know here, and I've made some good friends in the process. I'm certainly not out to flame you, and I appreciate your input. To answer your question, you'd be surprised what turkeys will roost in, and how far they will travel from a roost site. I called an Osceola in from a roost tree that was a full two miles across the grass range from where I killed him. I've seen Merriam's in South Dakota in the middle of those flat, absolutely open sections, and watched a huge number of them gather in one copse of trees that wasn't two acres. In Texas, the Rios are known to walk over ten miles in a day through mesquite scrub, and I've seen them roosted on telephone poles and feeders. In southwest Colorado, I've seen dozens of birds in those clearcuts they have there. The birds roost on the ridge, fly down to the canyonbottom, and eventually work back up to the open meadows to feed before going to the roost. What we found over the years is that a turkey doesn't need much to roost in, and it will go a long way to get there. If somebody thinks they need a big ole oak, they're mistaken. BUT. What they do need is nesting habitat, and the edges of clearcuts are particularly good, and you would be amazed at how hens will nest in the cut out tops. In short, grouse habitat is excellant habitat for turkeys. Small game habitat of any kind is excellant for turkeys.
I stand by my comments about grouse being forgotten in this state in the sense that once you get out of the eastern part of the state, the number of hunters diminishes significantly, and with diminished numbers comes diminished interest. Yet there are significant areas of quality grouse habitat in the central and western parts of the state, and virtually no VISIBLE effort is being made toward eventually opening those areas to hunting. For most folks, if I can't hunt 'em, I'm not going to manage for them. If the KDFWR would focus on grouse as a potential new resource where they are now closed, interest would increase dramatically. This is exactly what we did with the turkey, and the results speak for themselves.

[OnePostOnly]

Quote "but if you are a governmental agency such as the KDFWR, whos express purpose is to represent the interests of hunters and wildlife..."
---"wildlife" does not expressly refer to game species. The KDFWR is also mandated by the federal government to manage for all "at risk" species...and I can assure YOU that most of those species at risk in Eastern KY are NOT benefited by clearcutting. There is a balance that must be met, you manage for one, you impact another. You cannot manage Eastern KY on the whims (or is it whines) of one user group, when there are multiple user groups interested in the area.

[Multidigits]

No sense even responding since you don't intend to post any more useless information.

[schuyler olt]

The mandate is all wildlife, whether at risk or not. Now, kindly name us those species which would be harmed by clear-cutting small areas in the effected counties. And if it will help, you can go to the GIS portion of the KDFWR website for a complete inventory of all species catalogued, and they are broken down by counties.

[Multidigits]

I had to dig into the archieves to find this post from Ronnie on what a typical plan would or could do if the Dept. would allow it. I've ask "why not" and I'm still waiting on an answer from the higher-ups. In their defense, I know this legislature crap has them scrambling and expect an answer any day now. As you can see by the plan, it's over several lifetimes, but the effects would be shown pretty quickly.

Quote from Birdman---"Multi lets take Pine Mountain WMA (5,018) Letcher CO. location 5mi. SW of Whitesburg off US 119. Mountainous and steep. Game species deer, squirrel, turkey, grouse, fox, and raccoon. No camping allowed. Sight-seeing, hiking.

Take each of these WMA's, get the bottom land cleaned up, put in alternative food sources for game. On our hill sides determine acreage, divide number of acres by 80yrs. and clear cut that section.

This will do several thing. Regenerate a poor forest caused by select cutting, in past years,(taking the number of acres listed above we would cut 62.6 acres per year for 80yrs.) create thickets for grouse and other game for propogation and cover. Plus the money coming in from logging on these properities will pay for forestry biogolists and other projects on these WMA's.

What's there now is a stand of grade 2 and 3 timber that's benefiting very little.

This year we got some small water holes on this area do to the work the ky. grouse hunters have been doing with KDFWR the last two years.

Muleskinner they've cut about 25 acres on Paintsville Lake in different locations, around three acres on Dewey and Yatesville WMA's. On Yatesville they burned about 40 acres and planeted some fields, on Paintsville there was some burning and about 20 acres was sown. We hope that this will continue on these areas but we need everyones voice and help to get this started on all these WMA's in eastern ky."

I'm asking Adam and OneShot to fill us in on why this plan wouldn't work????[8)][^]

[OnePostOnly]

Letcher GASTROPODS GLYPHYALINIA RHOADSI SCULPTED GLYPH T
Letcher GASTROPODS PATERA PANSELENUS VIRGINIA BLADETOOTH S
Letcher CRUSTACEANS CAMBARUS PARVOCULUS A CRAYFISH E
Letcher INSECTS ERORA LAETA EARLY HAIRSTREAK S
Letcher INSECTS LITOBRANCHA RECURVATA A BURROWING MAYFLY S
Letcher INSECTS STYLURUS NOTATUS ELUSIVE CLUBTAIL H
Letcher FISHES ETHEOSTOMA NIGRUM SUSANAE JOHNNY DARTER E/C
Letcher FISHES PHOXINUS CUMBERLANDENSIS BLACKSIDE DACE T/LT
Letcher AMPHIBIANS PLETHODON WEHRLEI WEHRLE'S SALAMANDER E
Letcher BIRDS ACCIPITER STRIATUS SHARP-SHINNED HAWK S
Letcher BIRDS CORVUS CORAX COMMON RAVEN E
Letcher BIRDS EMPIDONAX MINIMUS LEAST FLYCATCHER E
Letcher BIRDS PHEUCTICUS LUDOVICIANUS ROSE-BREASTED GROSBEAK S
Letcher BIRDS TYTO ALBA BARN OWL S
Letcher MAMMAL CLETHRIONOMYS GAPPERI MAURUS RED-BACKED VOLE S
Letcher MAMMALS CORYNORHINUS RAFINESQUII RAFINESQUE'S BAT S
Letcher MAMMALS MUSTELA NIVALIS LEAST WEASEL S
Letcher MAMMALS MYOTIS LEIBII EASTERN SMALL-FOOTED MYOTIS T
Letcher MAMMALS MYOTIS SODALIS INDIANA BAT E/LE
Letcher MAMMALS SOREX CINEREUS CINEREUS SHREW S
Letcher MAMMALS SOREX DISPAR BLITCHI LONG-TAILED SHREW E
Letcher MAMMALS SPILOGALE PUTORIUS EASTERN SPOTTED SKUNK S
Letcher MAMMALS URSUS AMERICANUS AMERICAN BLACK BEAR S
Letcher COMMUNITIES APPALACHIAN ACID SEEP APPALACHIAN ACID SEEP N

Obviously all of these aren't going to be affected by your proposal, but several would be negatively impacted. Data is from the KY state nature preserves comm. 2001.

I enjoy your guys willingness to fight for your issues, and I see no problem with managing for grouse in eastern ky. I was just pointing out that other factors must be considered by F&W.
O.K. This is my last post for sure!!!![:D]

[schuyler olt]

OnePost, Thanks! By the way--what's an "acid seep" Are they good to eat?[:D]

[Highbow]

You know I thought it was the license buying sportsmen who should have a say on what was done with these areas and how they are managed for huntable game, not speckled newt or orange frog, If we buy the license to hunt we need to worry with the game we hunt and I'm know biologist but I can prove what game come to eat and what it does to improve them.

[Multidigits]

Maybe it was missed, but the Ky. Grouse Hunters plan was to log only 1/80th of the parcel per year. Over 80 years, you would have an improved forest, and an improve ecosystem for all the animals, both game and non game the tree hugger mentioned.

The other part that is puzzleing is that IF these were private lands, that the Dept. PLBs would likely be encouraging the very thing that we want done here. I know, because I've had it suggested to me on my own farm.

Adam-you seem to have a genuine interest in this subject. As you can see it's been on going for years. Those ole boys up there in them mountains are about fed up with it. In fact, the rest of the thread where that post came from showed that the WMAs in Eastern Ky. are quite large compared with the rest of the state. Here's the post that started that thread-

quote Birdman "Within the 7th. district we have 131,648 acres of public land in which to hunt or fish, the 8th district has 30,924 acres, 9th 120,300 acres - this totals 282,872 acres (this does not include the new WMA's that have been added this year), which I think is around 60,000 acres, putting the total over 300,000 acres. The Daniel Boone is 670,000 acres by it's self, granted some of these WMA's are within the Daniel Boone (about 100,000 acres) with all areas together we have about 800,000 acres of public land in these three districts that are huntable. What we get from the dept. is that these areas are to small to make a difference. What do you think?"

On top of that, the answer from the Dept. was to increase funding for habitat improvement by $50,000--spread that over 800,000 acres and see what you get.

In summery, the Eastern Ky. area needs help. There is little tillable land to manage like happens on othe WMAs in the state. These guys are only asking that something different gets done, something that will work and something that will improve the grouse habitat sometime this century. As you say, WE are willing to work with anybody to get it done. I waiting to find out "why not".

[Multidigits]

Believe it or not a good burn might happen. Thnaks for listening, at least thats more than we got from the Dept.

[uplandchessies]

All of this goes to show how stupid KY is. Although bobwhite quail and woodcock are not on the "Threatened" or "Endangered" list, with management practices such as those in KY -- classification may not be that far off. Proper management is the key to "all" wildlife --QU has proven this with the quail, Pheasants Forever with pheasant and a person only has to travel to MI to see the net results with woodcock!

Selectively cutting trees is not a major undertaking and will have no ill-effects on the species that OnePostOnly referred to. Who knows, it may even benefit them.

[Xtreme]

One post and Adam, thanks for at least talking to us on this subject. Any time Grouse and timber harvest are brought up in the same sentence in the presence of F&W officials, well.....you get a very cold response. I did not understand what these fellows were up against until I went there and hunted with them.

Granted my education is experience , not scholastic when it comes to hunting and fishing. I do know however that a little bit of good logging helps nearly every species I've ever dealt with. These guys are not asking for Eastern Ky. to be laid low. They just want some logging done and in a responsible manner. The really sad part of this as I understand F&W would get the money!!

It was hard for me to comprehend till I went to several places on two different WMA's with these guys. I have few complaints with the dept. I have far more praises than gripes but these guys have a legitimate complaint and I'm backing them a hundred percent.

As for turkeys, no logging operation ever cuts down all of the trees, there are plenty left that a turkey can roost in. It's not like these guys are asking for the whole woods to be laid low. Any "endangered" weird species can just move over to the woods not cut.

The only good deer sign I saw were in the brushy areas of these WMA's and Auxier Flats which was by far the best area and the politicians are trying to steal that from us as well.

Hang in there boys, maybe with the help of some flatlanders as well we can get enough support for this[;)] If not, well......wouldn't surprise me if there was not a "wild fire" in those parts. Knowing these fellows I'm amazed it has not already happened.

[Xtreme]

Damn son, don't you get to far away!!! Hell....your the best thing I've seen since Birdman's Kookin show[^] I sure hope you continue to try to be a F&W employee. By God, don't be a stranger either!!!....we may give you the title of "Multi junior"[^][:0][;)]

[Highbow]

Adam, just for extra information the brain worm was already present in most of the eastern Ky deer herd before the Elk arrived, several have already died from the brain worm. According to Charlie Logsdon , Elk Biologist, there will always be a few lost to the brain worm just as you will lose a few deer to some health problems from time to time. I , like Extreme, receive much of my education from experience too. You seem to have a solid foundation under you young man now build on it, I'm still learning how to make it through from one season to the next without a DIVORCE.For God sakes don't end up like Multi! Just Kiddin!

[Birdman]

Boys I don't know if this boy knows shit from shinola, but I like his attitude. Scott is at it again, if you haven't see the paper check it out. From what I was told we had prime rib and paw paws on the menu this week. You know that boys going to f ck around until I invite him to dinner.

About one visit from people like onepost is all I can stand. But it's always nice to know, that their's people out there that still eat fried shit and paw paws, but I never could get used to cleaning those damn skunks.

[Highbow]

Ronnie, did you let him go through the garbage? Me thinks he needs a lesson!

[Ynothirekybiologists]

adam: where did you graduate from? where are you working now? one word of caution...don't bite the hand that you want to feed you. will you work for KDFWR? nah! let me open the can of worms...is your best friend Jon Gassett? nope? well go back to college and make friends with a Phd student that will some day be running the show at the state level and then ask him for a job...ask and you shall receive. I wish there would be more home grown boys in KDFWR that grew up hunting but with todays trends we are getting alot of people that are not into hunting. Our PLB's are working their butts off and kudos to them, just wish they had more freedom and money to do more of what they know how to do. I really enjoyed reading this thread and see what the hunters of ky are thinking. Boy, if DC Roy Grimes would read this thread I would no longer be the blame for making him mad about the hiring process via the "register". Adam, are you on the register? your hair may turn gray before kdfwr's budget allows more hiring. can anyone look into a statistic of how many of the wildlife students from murray, morehead, and eastern are working in a wildlife career?
take care,
Jimmy Neutron
"kid genius"

[Multidigits]

I want to wish you luck with your career, even if you have to relocate to find work. Don't pay too much attention to Jimmy Neutron, he likes to come around once or twice a year and stir things up. Again, good luck with your career plans.

[Multidigits]

That's fair..all we want is to be told the truth. By that I mean if the Dept. doesn't ever plan on fixing the grouse habitat problem, come on out and say so. If they won't do the logging or other improvemnets, tell us why not. People want answers and have been waiting VERY PATIENTLY for years to get something done.

Adam, at least your on your way to being a professional. You have good common sense along with a good education. You are ahead of a lot of folks just on that account.

[schuyler olt]

Adam,
Good luck with your career, and I'm certain there are several of us here who could probably be persuaded to go to bat for you. Here at UofL, the students are raising h over the police force. It's good to see one raising h for the hunters!

[Ynothirekybiologists]

Multi, who me, show up and stir the pot? nah, one of this forums finest openly addressed the issue of hiring directly to DC and look what happened. Also my stance on other topics such as the mgt of Central Wma is also the stance by every other biologist in the state, but nothing can be done about it due to field trial assoc relationship with Bennett. when Bennett tells Gassett to go ahead with mowing to appease the bird doggers, there is nothing any of us can do about it. jimmy just likes to stop in on occassion and see what is going on in this state. i just like to give my opinion on things. take care, jimmy neutron

[Xtreme]

Adam, I damn sure hope your dreams come true. As far as a "know it all kid"....well....I just wish there were a bunch more kids like you because a lot of us are not getting any younger.

Son you can hunt anything any time any day with me and I'll respect and treat you like a man. Hell, you are a man.[;)]

" To ride, shoot straight and speak the truth"

[Larry Carter]

[:)] I appreciate everyone being nice to the boy. He is passionate about wildlife habitat and doing what's best for multiple species. Might be a touch outspoken and honest to be a state employee though! I might take some credit [or condemnation] for his attitudes about wildlife issues. He can't help it,I raised him that way. I guess for employment all those miles and years tromping the fields actually hunting might put him outside the norm for the "modern" wildlife managers. He might not get the responces hunters need on habitat improvements but I can guarantee it won't be from lack of effort or being two faced. If and when you meet him you'll like him as a hunting type biology man.

[Darton73]

In defense of the "modern" wildlife managers of KY, I can't think of too many that aren't avid sportsmen themselves.



Brian Grossman
Darton73@alltel.net