Late Youth Deer Season vs. Small Game Season

[grouseguy]

I have just read the post reporting the recommendations out of the Wildlife Committee, and the one that caught my eye, as primarily a small game hunter, was the 2 day youth deer season scheduled for the last weekend in December. Most of you are aware of my thoughts regarding running dogs during open firearms deer seasons, and the Depts continued efforts to infringe on our season by expanding firearms deer seasons. So, it will come as no suprise that my first response is that I'm opposed to the late youth deer season. How is this season perceived by the rest of you?

Also, this is the first that we've heard of this proposed additional youth season. Does anyone know if there was a push from some group for this season or who originally recommended it and why?

"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[Multidigits]

Mark, it was recieved favorablely except by Southhall but you know how he is.

[Ky Headhunter]

Mark, I don't have any hunting dogs myself but I'm inclined to agree with you on this. Hasn't been much positive happening for small game hunters.

I've got two little boys, so I'm all for getting kids out there. That being said, I think there is plenty of opportunity already, without adding more "youth only" seasons. No law against kids hunting the general archery, muzzleloading or modern gun seasons. I'm guessing this is any easy way for them to put in more firearms deer days, since no one could oppose something done "for the children".

Actually, I still think small game hunting is the best way for youngsters to start & learn, at least for awhile. But that's just my opinion & I've been reminded a thousand times what opinions are like[:)]

Suppose I should be in an uproar since I'm a diehard bowhunter & KBA member, but I wouldn't want to be elitist[;)] Honestly I've been at peace with more gun deer days for some time now, since I really did see it coming. I'll just have to suck it up & put some orange on, or go somewhere firearms can't be used.

[thunderstorm]

Tough call. I am always for more youth opportunity, but I believe smallgame hunters are getting pushed out. How much does a smallgame permit cost compared to a deer or turkey permit??

With the decline in # of hunters, answer this. What is your early memories of hunting? I bet most people over thirty began small game hunting. I would also bet most remember Thanksgiving morning out with extended family who may have only hunted once or twice per year.
During this time it was the more the merrier. That isn't the case anymore with deer and turkey. I believe all the cousins and uncles, etc. who were out there with you, but now never hunt, aren't against hunting because of this. Now that most deer and turkey hunters don't invite the whole family we are losing a big part of the population that supports us. I don't guess that is more important than $$$.

[grouseguy]

Guys, thunderstorm just made an excellent point that I hope everyone considers: Small game hunting has historically been a social activity (and a lot of those hunters only hunted a couple times a year, but they bought a license just the same), while big game is primarily a solo sport, and while the Dept continues to ignore small game hunting, they continue to lose # of hunters and hunting revenue. I personally see a direct correlation here.

"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[Multidigits]

The reasoning behind the sason was that IF a child was given a new DEER gun for Xmas, that they wouldn't have to wait a whole year to use it????

[MrBowhunter]

Grouseguy, I posted under the other thread before reading this one. I still support any time dedicated to youths but I paused for a moment to remember. Before I ever thought about bowhunting I was a small game hunter. You're right, it was a social event. We'd go squirrel and grouse hunting at our camp in Clearfield County PA. We'd gather for the weekend and shoot the s***! Pheasant hunting was by far my favorite. I recall small game starting in early Sept and into Oct. Being that I wasn't a bowhunter I never gave much thought to them and you know what I never remember running across one in the woods either. I appreciate you making me think about the memories but I still have to support the kids. I try to get the kids out as often as possible. My daughter has no interest in hunting but still likes to occassionally go out in the woods. We went on our annual Christmas day walk and we are going on our first elk shed hunt in March. They can't wait.

Kenny

[Xtreme]

GG, I to posted in the members section as well. I'm kind of like Kenny. This is a real sticky tough call. I have worked in a school for 14 years and I have heard many kids excited about their new rifle and could not wait to use it.

I also know small game hunters get crapped on. I'm a small game hunter as well as a bowhunter and I guess I have two reasons for concern available to me but I'm going to stick with the kids on this one.

I will say this though.....again. I'm tired of all these hodge podge season changes and dates. I wish we all could sit down and come up with a plan that appeases the majority with the least amount of pain.

Our hunting season calender looks like some one parked it under a bridge and the pigeons crapped all over it. It is shoe horned to death[xx(] I wish we could formulate a plan and stick with it for at least three years at a time. A plan that is fair for big and small game.

[grouseguy]

Thanks for keeping an open mind Kenny, but let me make one more point. Will passage of this proposed youth season affect your ability to spend time with your children on your Christmas walks or March elk shed hunt? Of course not, you spend time with your kids because you want to. Do you really need a "designated" day to spend time with your kids? Obviously not. You also mentioned on the other thread that you agreed that very few youth would participate in this late season. So why would we negatively impact the many (small game and bowhunters) for the benefit of the few (those youth that receive a rifle for Christmas)? If you want to take a child hunting on the last weekend in December, why not rabbit, squirrel, quail, grouse or bowhunting? You can do all of that now with your kids on the last weekend in December, but if this passes, the only outdoor activity that you can effectively do with your child is deer hunting.

Also, as a personal youth oriented counter-point: My son is now 18 years old and a student at UK. Christmas break is the only extended period that he and I will have to hunt together until he graduates. He is not interested in deer hunting. He just doesn't care for being quiet in the cold, but he truly enjoys the setters and grouse hunting. While he was still in high school, the highlight of his year was going with me and his grandfather to Wisconsin for a week of grouse hunting during his fall break. Now if this passes, some other father will have the opportunity to take their child deer hunting on the last weekend in December, but I will be unable to take my son grouse hunting. Just because something is purported to be for youth, doesn't necessarily mean it is for all youth, and could possibly negatively impact some youth.

All I ask is that we don't get caught up in the "emotion" connected to our children when deciding to support or oppose this proposed new season.

"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[Xtreme]

GG, darn good point and it made me think[:0] Honestly though, do you really think there will be much of a chance that a hunting dog will get shot during this small season? I assume we can hunt small game as wellon this weekend..right?

I would and probably will be out with the small hounds that weekend with little or no worry about some kid shooting my dog. There wont be that many kids anyway and I also wear a little orange anytime I small game hunt.

Are there many kids that deer hunt where you Grouse hunt?

[grouseguy]

Rick, more than likely, you're right and there wouldn't be any conflicts, especially with the small numbers expected to be involved. However, it just takes one to cause an UGLY situation, and I've already lost one dog during regular firearms season two years ago, and I had enough contact with the "half-wit slob" segment of gun deer hunters at that time to color my opinion. And believe me the "half-wit slobs" reproduce at a higher rate than we do, so the potential is there for conflict with them AND their children. You have to look no further than this board to see that mentality anytime "dogs and deer" are mentioned in the same thread.

I can see where you would discount the possibility. If this passes, more than likely, I'll spend this weekend in western KY quail hunting. It is my experience that western KY, in general, has better control over access to, and more respect for private land. Therefore, the potential for conflict is probably less in western KY than eastern KY.

Also, I will openly question the wisdom of Mr. Grimes in advancing such a divisive issue WITHOUT a request or input from the sportsmen. My guess is that was his intention...to cause a division, while casting some of his critics (small game hunters) in a negative light. IMHO, a very petty and transparent abuse of power.

"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[GSP]

Here are my few thoughts. I really think this 2 day proposal was thrown into the loop to see how may knots I would tie my stomach into try to decided what I would support. I have thought long and hard on this since I read Multi’s report last night. People that know me well also know that you will find me almost every week working with kids shooting, kids hunting or I’m out working my dogs. This weekend we are taking 32 kids out to shoot quail WITH our dogs!

I love hunting with kids and I love hunting with my dogs. I never want to loose any chance to do either.

Before we rip into each other too hard on this issue we should step back and look at one thing, the ENTIRE proposal. We should not debate line-item issues with this proposal. It will not be voted that way, so why cause hard feelings among ourselves?

If y’all go back and look at this original idea of all the moves you will find that I was against it then and I'm against it now.

[uplandchessies]

This is a topic I have questioned for years! I am for youths hunting, especially in a time where their numbers are declining at an alarming rate. However, the state [Kentucky] needs to consider the thought (and their monies) of the small game hunter -- more importantly, the bird hunter. Since I hunt public land the most, this affects me on a regular basis.

Two years ago I set-up a dove hunt (public shoot) with five of my buddies (three months before season), only to find out the month before the opener that it was a "youth only" hunt. This is my favorite day of the season, since its the first time I can have my dogs out in the field pursuing game. Why would they [Kentucky] have a youth hunt on the opener? The same can be said for woodcock season -- my favorite bird to hunt. Woodcock opens the third Saturday in October and wouldn't you know it -- youth deer season does too. Why the openers? States like Nebraska, North Dakota, ect open their respective youth seasons (except dove, which is Federal) weeks before to weeks after the official opening of their game seasons -- why can't Kentucky do the same? I still hunt the woodcock opener, but when I hear the sound of high powered rifles going off, I am filled with concern knowing that a child is the one pulling the trigger. This scenerio is played out several more times over the course of the season and adding a "youth season" in December is just another day that the bird hunter may have to sacrifice. Wake-up Kentucky, not everyone hunts deer or elk! With the monies I spend on hunting this state (sometimes more than out-of state fees), I don't want to lose another day in field.

Just my thoughts!

[Birdman]

I'll have to think about this for a minute. That's long enough. I had the opportunity to attend the committee meeting yesterday. With everything that was going on, and believe me there was a lot. This one slipped by. I know Multi has given you a run down and I'm sure a good one, but I haven't seen those either. With funs being short and numbers of licenses being down a nother youth season is the last thing we need. For three years now we've (KY. GROUSE HUNTERS) tried to convince the dept. to improve habitat on our WMAs to benefit small game and provide more areas for hunters. Last year 126,000 people bought hunting licenses, that didn't have a place to hunt. While at the same time we're (the dept.) doing everything BUT improveing habitat and increase places to hunt. Our license sells were down 8% last year and with those 126,000 not having a place to hunt, sells will be down more this year. When will our dept. address the real problems, HABITAT, AND HUNTABLE AREAS. They all know that these are the issues, not length of seasons or times of seasons, but habitat, and a place to hunt. For some reason we start our youth off as deer hunters, is this a good thing, or is this because of the great numbers of deer, that run our fields and forest. We all have talked about this before and some of us have different opinions about this, but the facts are in the puddin'. Before the deer and yes the turkey, everyone that hunted had plenty of places to hunt and when these species came along we got greedy, and started posting land. While at the same time our dept. started growing and the money started rolling in. But very little was spent on public lands. Now we are caught between a rock and a hard place. No I don't think a nother youth season is the answer. What may help is take a KID hunting that week-end and any other time you can get one to go.

[MrBowhunter]

Okay, I see the point the dept. is trying to make with offering thois to the kids. How about at the end of bowseason in January. The first weekend following, will this effect anyone? Just a thought and as far as temps go they're pretty much the same from end december to end of january.

[grouseguy]

uplandchessies, would you consider joining Cyber-Hunters? I believe you would be an asset to the group. You appear to be passionate, you write well, and you travel quite a bit hunting, and are therefore able to judge the efforts of the KDFWR with other states. We could also use some more small game representation in the group. Think about it and if you want to discuss it more, feel free to contact me.

Mark Rogers (grouseguy)
(606) 475-5190 office
(606) 474-0403 home
mrogers@fnbgrayson.com


"If I went hunting and discovered I'd forgot my dog, I'd go back home. If I'd forgot my gun, I'd go hunting."

[Xtreme]

Loose horns or no horns possible at that time Kenny. Also small game goes to the end of Jan. and grouse to Feb. I'll second GG's invite as well there upland.

[MrBowhunter]

Well, I guess that's what I get for not small game hunting anymore. I have no idea when the seasons end.

[Birdman]

Upland let me extend that invite also.

[shogan]

I like the idea take a kid hunting week end!

[perrymax]

Deer tags bring in the big bucks!!!I understand that KDFWR has to pay the bills.When I was a kid almost every man and his sons hunted whenever they got the time to,and we didn't hunt deer or turkey!!!Kids couldn't wait until Saturday to go with there dads or uncles or papaws and follow bird dogs or beagles.We never got bored and we got some good exercise.

I try to take a youngster with me whenever I can.From my experiance,they prefer following a good pack of beagle hounds around more then sitting in a tree stand all day.They don't get bored and they learn to appreciate hunting more.

KDFWR does spend some money on small game.(HIP-habitat improvement program)and they push native warm season grass.It just keeps getting harder to find places to hunt small game.A lot of land owners have had bad experiances with some irresponcable deer hunters.

I believe the future of hunting has to be focused on small game,not deer and turkey!!!

[settermollieb]

i'm from mo. brother lives in mcclean co. here in mo., the youth deer season was always the last weekend in oct. this year (2002) they had it on nov 2-3. our quail and pheasent season alwaqys open nov 1, needless to say what few of us bird hunters left raised a lot of xxll with them about it.
this year it looks like it is back to last weekend in oct. bottom line our dept likes monnnney, deer tags sales = a lot of dollars, bird sales "0" DOLLARS that is why here in mo there is less and less bird hunters each year. probably the same in ky.

[schuyler olt]

Like most of you, I never thought of hunting deer and turkeys as a kid. We hunted rabbits and quail primarily, along with squirrels and pheasants, and a couple of tries on ducks. Hunting was a social event--three to ten guys lined up across fields, the Thanksgiving morning, etc. To this day, my favorite day afield is taking my dad's Model 11 and rabbit hunting all by myself, but not alone. I don't give a tinker's damn if I kill one or not because it is a day to be with memories. Kids want to do what dad and grandpa do, and if all dad and grandpa do is deer hunt, then deer hunt it will be. But I am firmly convinced that the deer woods is not the best place to break in a kid to hunting. Kids like to move and make noise, and small game is constant action for them. Every fundamental can be taught better, because you can reinforce it more. I know I'm preaching to the choir.
There are many grown men who only deer hunt or turkey hunt, and their numbers are growing. If we don't get them small game hunting, we will lose more and more kids to hunting in general. That's why I like the concept someone raised here about a family week between Christmas and New Years. Let's get moms and dads out in the field to try something they may have left awhile back, or never came to know, along with their kids. Aside from the impact of a deer season on small game, I'm concerned about kids with rifles they have not used, or that are not sighted in properly. How many kids will come back to any kind of hunting if their first deer is one that dies ugly?

[perrymax]

Well said Schuyler!!!Like you,I love turkey hunting as much as anything I've ever done.I also hunt deer,but not with the same passion.If youngsters would rather play vidio games than go hunting,in 20 years,anti hunting forces will have won!!!The majority of hunters I know only hunt deer.I've never seen a child that didn't injoy a rabbit or sqirrel hunt,but I've seen plenty that wanted to get out of that deer stand and go to the house!!

[Multidigits]

Lots of valid points and good comments have been made. BUT, to be really realistic, I haven't seen any great alternatives offered thats going to increase participation by adults or kids. A lot of you have brought into play the way things used to be. Well they ain't like that no more. Used to be, you went rabbit or quail hunting first because that was what was available. Wasn't many deer and you never saw a turkey unless you were at LBL or Bernhiem or Ft. Knox. Now, all you hear is deer and turkeys, Kids hear it too. Last weekend they had a show in Louisville and one in Nashville. Did they have a Big Rabbit Contest or a Quail Calling Contest??? Nope. Sad as it may be, with the changes in habitat in the last 30 years, rabbits are now mostly nocturnal or in dense, heavy cover that makes hunting without dogs almost futile. Quail numbers are down nationwide, not just in Kentucky. Very few people keep bird dogs. A few more keep beagles, but it's not near the number that hunt deer and turkeys. Look at the survey numbers and see who pays the bills. The two day Late Youth Season is in lieu of the small game already in. You could have a choice. I know some won't take their dogs out with deer hunting going on, but that's their choice. Ask 10 kids if they want to deer hunt on that weekend or rabbit/bid/squirrel hunt and see what the majority want to do. I've learned that the easiest way to ruin a kid from hunting is to force him to go when he don't want to go. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. This short season gives them that choice, like it of not. And maybe, it'll make a hunter or two. I won't vote against the kids on this, even though both mine are now grown. They hunt everything, like I do, but deer is their favorite game animal to hunt.

[perrymax]

If my son had to pick one or the other,deer or rabbits,he would probobly pick deer also.He watches the hunting shows and he looks at my magazines.He wants to get in the deer stand,sit 15 minutes and try to decide witch one of the 3 or 4 huge bucks he's going to shoot!!!He wants to shoot at one of the 3 big longbeards that just ran to his mouth calls!!The problem is,this rarely happens in the real world.After an hour or 2 he's ready to go.He's not much differant than the average 10 year old.Luckily he gets to hunt rabbits,with good dogs,squirrels,and deer and turkey.I just wonder if kids without this opportunity won't loose interest after a while when it's not like on tv.

1960's=lots of quail,lots of rabbits,lots of hunters,lots of farmland.
2000's=lots of turkey,to many deer(does),not near as many rabbits,
no quail,alot fewer hunters,alot less farmland.

[The Beagler]

Personally, my father and I don't start hunting our beagle hounds until after the modern gun deer season. Now, this year we have a extended deer season (3 weekends) for antlered deer. This is definitely going to put more deer hunters in the woods longer. With the extended season and the snowy weather we didn't get to run our dogs all that much this year. However, Kentucky has a major problem with deer and they need to be thinned out. I don't mind the youth weekend if it will kill out more of the deer. However, the small game hunter has been neglected in Kentucky and the rest of the U.S. for that matter. I suggests all the small game hunters wear blaze orange vests and keep bells on their dog's collars. We don't have much of a problem with competing with deer hunters after modern gun season and we hunt in heavily hunted areas. However, I wouldn't dare run my dogs while rifle season is going on. We are all hunters and we need to be respectful of each other. There are too many people trying to keep us from hunting. We need to stick together to keep from losing our hunting rights.