Crossbow situation

[Skipper]

I suppose we'll need our hip waders Saturday for the coming discussion of the crossbow situation. I know I've heard both sides of it today and haven't even left for Paducah.

Guys, we need to get this problem solved. I know that some groups are calling their respective state representatives and tempers are flaired on both sides. I can think of a lot of bad things that could come from turning over wildlife regulation to the whim of the Kentucky Legislature as opposed to keeping it with the commission. We do not need the legislature managing wildlife affairs, paticularly considering the surplus funds the agency is sitting on and knowing that there are other interests in the state who would desire to have a seat on the commission. I think it would be best to keep things as they are.

While I'm pretty neutral on the use of crossbows, I know that the commission kicked a sleeping dog that should have been left asleep when they passed the regulation to start with. However, they did pass it, and since that time, people have made plans to comply with it. Some of these plans have included rather large investments. There are a lot of retailers sitting on large inventories of crossbows now that are frankly not happy with the prospect of being stuck with thousands of dollars of merchandise they may not be able to sell. There are also sportsmen who have purchased the bows in preparation for the season, and I'm sure they want the opportunity to use them.

The fact is, we use the tag system in this state to regulate the harvest. With 4 tags, I can see little difference in what weapon is used to fill those tags. If we find that crossbows are taking too many deer, it's simple, set the tag number back to 2 or 3 like it was before.

Having a lot of experience runing discussion boards for hunters, there are 4 topics that are always contoversial. Crossbows, deer dogs, baiting, and inline muzzleloaders. The commission has opened up one of these topics and the wrath that could be expected has followed it.

Skip

[turk2di]

It was a turf war and had little to do with harvest concerns.

[grouseguy]

Hopefully someday everyone will realize that this crossbow fire storm had absolutely NOTHING to do with crossbows, resources, hunter opportunity, etc. It was used for a specific purpose and it has worked masterfully.


The reasons behind Tom Bennett's "retirement" were never discussed because of this smokescreen.
The Commission has effectively divided the sportsmen before they could unify further, as had been occurring.
This controversial issue has given them the perfect opportunity to discredit, by association, the most qualified applicant to fill TB's vacated position.
While the sportsmen are still fighting over this non-issue, the Commissioners are getting a free pass to hire their own hand-picked YES man (or woman) for the job, and we're not even watching because we've got our heads up our collective asses over crossbows.
AND THE CORRUPTION AND MISMANAGEMENT OF OUR KDFWR WILL CONTINUE, because we shot ourselves in the foot.
Thanks guys...your greed, jealousy and tunnel-vision has screwed us all and most of you don't even realize that you've beed USED.

[gwhilikerz]

Hopefully someday everyone will realize that this crossbow fire storm had absolutely NOTHING to do with crossbows, resources, hunter opportunity, etc. It was used for a specific purpose and it has worked masterfully.

The reasons behind Tom Bennett's "retirement" were never discussed because of this smokescreen.
The Commission has effectively divided the sportsmen before they could unify further, as had been occurring.
This controversial issue has given them the perfect opportunity to discredit, by association, the most qualified applicant to fill TB's vacated position.
While the sportsmen are still fighting over this non-issue, the Commissioners are getting a free pass to hire their own hand-picked YES man (or woman) for the job, and we're not even watching because we've got our heads up our collective asses over crossbows.
AND THE CORRUPTION AND MISMANAGEMENT OF OUR KDFWR WILL CONTINUE, because we shot ourselves in the foot.
Thanks guys...your greed, jealousy and tunnel-vision has screwed us all and most of you don't even realize that you've beed USED.

And I thought I was paranoid. The Commission made a decision based on the impact it would or would not have on the resource. That is their job and they did it. Some of you started crying like babies, threatening to tell Mama (legislature). The screaming, kicking, crying worked and you got what you wanted. I hope you really enjoy your victory cause a big price will be paid for it.

[buckfever]

Hopefully someday everyone will realize that this crossbow fire storm had absolutely NOTHING to do with crossbows, resources, hunter opportunity, etc. It was used for a specific purpose and it has worked masterfully.


The reasons behind Tom Bennett's "retirement" were never discussed because of this smokescreen.
The Commission has effectively divided the sportsmen before they could unify further, as had been occurring.
This controversial issue has given them the perfect opportunity to discredit, by association, the most qualified applicant to fill TB's vacated position.
While the sportsmen are still fighting over this non-issue, the Commissioners are getting a free pass to hire their own hand-picked YES man (or woman) for the job, and we're not even watching because we've got our heads up our collective asses over crossbows.
AND THE CORRUPTION AND MISMANAGEMENT OF OUR KDFWR WILL CONTINUE, because we shot ourselves in the foot.
Thanks guys...your greed, jealousy and tunnel-vision has screwed us all and most of you don't even realize that you've beed USED.


GG - Not sure what you really meant or were insinuating by your post. You've camouflaged your points in encrypted code. I might be able to respond, but I need you to be a little more direct in what you really are thinking. Would you clarify what you believe to be the "specific purpose" behind the crossbow proposal, why you thought that the issue was simply a "smokescreen" and how people have been "used"? If I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly, you believe that the Dept intentionally trotted out this crossbow thing to divert attention away from whom they were selecting as the next KDFWR commissioner or to cover up the reasons that TB resigned?

"the Commissioners are getting a free pass to hire their own hand-picked YES man for the job". Mark, the statutes clearly give the district commissioners the authority to pick the KDFWR commissioner, and only they can remove him. This is NOT something that is controlled by the Governor or the legislature. I'm not sure why they sent a list of 4 to the Governor (maybe it's become a traditional approach), but they clearly have the power to seat anyone they choose.

Because he spoke out against the crossbow proposal, Sky was almost certainly blacklisted by Hensley and Gailor. However, I don't think they offered up this season with some sort of prescient knowledge that Sky would speak up against it which would allow them to axe him from the list. Sky acted according to his conscience and took steps that he (and many of us) believed were appropriate and legal.

The way that I see it, an almost complete lack of accountability makes the Dept dangerous. District commissioners can only be removed from office for "inefficiency, neglect of duty, or misconduct". I don't think that any dist commish has ever been removed from office before, and this has apparently fostered an unspoken belief at KDFWR that the dist commishes have a "vested" right to their posts which cannot be challenged by the sportsmen or anyone else.

[Skipper]

Agreed with Grouseguy 100%.

Skip

[buckfever]

And I thought I was paranoid. The Commission made a decision based on the impact it would or would not have on the resource. That is their job and they did it. Some of you started crying like babies, threatening to tell Mama (legislature). The screaming, kicking, crying worked and you got what you wanted. I hope you really enjoy your victory cause a big price will be paid for it.

Please Gwhili, it's over, so give it a rest. You've made that same post at least 200 other times. And yes, you are paranoid.

[grouseguy]

GG - Not sure what you really meant or were insinuating by your post. You've camouflaged your points in encrypted code. I might be able to respond, but I need you to be a little more direct in what you really are thinking. Would you clarify what you believe to be the "specific purpose" behind the crossbow proposal, why you thought that the issue was simply a "smokescreen" and how people have been "used"? If I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly, you believe that the Dept intentionally trotted out this crossbow thing to divert attention away from whom they were selecting as the next KDFWR commissioner? Not exactly, I feel that the "smokescreen" had more to do with covering up the previous commissioner's departure, but since it has exploded into the full scale fire-storm that it has, it will also be used to cover up the methods used to hire the new commissioner. Keep in mind that with this commission, rarely is anything what it appears to be on the surface.

"the Commissioners are getting a free pass to hire their own hand-picked YES man for the job". Mark, the statutes clearly give the district commissioners the authority to pick the KDFWR commissioner, and only they can remove him. This is NOT something that is controlled by the Governor or the legislature. I'm not sure why they sent a list of 4 to the Governor (maybe it's become a traditional approach), but they clearly have the power to seat anyone they choose. True, but it sure makes their jobs easier if all of the sportsman are completely distracted by this non-issue.

Because he spoke out against the crossbow proposal, Sky was almost certainly blacklisted by Hensley and Gailor. However, I don't think they offered up this season with some sort of prescient knowledge that Sky would speak up against it which would allow them to axe him from the list. Sky acted according to his conscience and took steps that he (and many of us) believed was appropriate and legal. True again, but this is not a new development and I do believe Sky acted his conscience even though I personally disagreed with his premise of crossbows having an impact on the turkey resource. Sky and Hensley have had an ongoing disagreement from prior issues. This just gave Hensley an opportunity to rally other commissioners against Sky.

The way that I see it, an almost complete lack of accountability makes the Dept dangerous. District commissioners can only be removed from office for "inefficiency, neglect of duty, or misconduct". I don't think that any dist commish has ever been removed from office before, and this has apparently fostered an unspoken belief at KDFWR that the dist commishes have a "vested" right to their posts which cannot be challenged by the sportsmen or anyone else. EXACTLY, and as a sportsman, this level of arrogance from my "alleged" representatives offends me.

Sorry for the Multi-style response, but it seemed easier given the variety of issues that have been raised. Granted, the issues being raised aren't visible to the average sportsmen, you have to look "under the covers" to see who's in bed together. Then ask yourself, where (or from whom) did the crossbow issue originate, WHY, and WHY NOW??? If you will put on your "polarized" glasses so that you can see beneath the surface, I think many will come to the same conclusions. You may not agree, but this is the way I've "connected the dots" for myself.

[daking]

Folks, conspiracy theories are for those who will not do the rigor of discovering the whys and wherefores of the situation. To date, I've heard a lot of accusations about misfeasance, malfeasance and all sorts of skullduggery at KDWFR. Bring on the charges! Bring on the proof! It would see that a select few have developed an animus towards the upper management of the KDFWR and the Commission. Air your beefs, show us the evidence or dislike them in silence so as not to make us suffer.

Terry Sullivan

[buckfever]

Sorry for the Multi-style response, but it seemed easier given the variety of issues that have been raised. Granted, the issues being raised aren't visible to the average sportsmen, you have to look "under the covers" to see who's in bed together. Then ask yourself, where (or from whom) did the crossbow issue originate, WHY, and WHY NOW??? If you will put on your "polarized" glasses so that you can see beneath the surface, I think many will come to the same conclusions. You may not agree, but this is the way I've "connected the dots" for myself.

Mark - I think I'm on the exact same page as you, but I'm not entirely convinced about your underlying primary motivations for the timing of the proposal. To the extent that it was a subterfuge for a completely ulterior purpose, it might come back to bite some people in the butt in a way that was completely unexpected.

Several district commissioners are probably going to be called to the mat to explain why they were employing a vendetta campaign against dissenters who disagreed with their decision on this one particular issue. It is bad for business, it as an abuse of authority, and it is an abuse of the public trust. I doubt that Mr. Hensley's justification - "we won't support anyone who doesn't support us" - is any way defensible, because, IMHO, it is blatantly improper to use public power as a weapon to dissuade constituents from voicing their opinions and engaging in the recognized, legitimate process. The Dept is a public agency. It is not the commissioners' private playground, and they have no power to use their public office to extract retribution for perceived insults. After all, they too can be removed for inefficiency, neglect of duty or misconduct.

[Highbow]

Buck, as you seen from of the above post, it hasn't been done. Therefore until a Gov comes along who will hold them accountable and the sportsmen stay together on huge issues(and quit going behind backs for personel favors)
it won't change. It's politics, plain & simple, you either suck up& kiss up to them or they don't want to hear you. Everyone knew when they opposed any Saturday public meetings it was over and done. The rest isn't that hard to watch and figure out, BUT it ain't over yet. Just sit back and watch for a little bit.

[gwhilikerz]

Please Gwhili, it's over, so give it a rest. You've made that same post at least 200 other times. And yes, you are paranoid.

No bucky, I won't give it a rest. I'm going to be reminding you guys for a long time just what you have done. I know you want me to shut up and let what you and others did just fade from memory. But when things start falling apart for hunters. I want everyone to remember what selfishness can do. And you guys are the epitomy of selfishness.

[gwhilikerz]

Mark - I think I'm on the exact same page as you, but I'm not entirely convinced about your underlying primary motivations for the timing of the proposal. To the extent that it was a subterfuge for a completely ulterior purpose, it might come back to bite some people in the butt in a way that was completely unexpected.

Several district commissioners are probably going to be called to the mat to explain why they were employing a vendetta campaign against dissenters who disagreed with their decision on this one particular issue. It is bad for business, it as an abuse of authority, and it is an abuse of the public trust. I doubt that Mr. Hensley's justification - "we won't support anyone who doesn't support us" - is any way defensible, because, IMHO, it is blatantly improper to use public power as a weapon to dissuade constituents from voicing their opinions and engaging in the recognized, legitimate process. The Dept is a public agency. It is not the commissioners' private playground, and they have no power to use their public office to extract retribution for perceived insults. After all, they too can be removed for inefficiency, neglect of duty or misconduct.
Might as well accept the fact that some anti-xbow people went over the Commission's head. It may have been legal, but it was dirty. Now You want desperately to change commissioners so they won't remember the lack of respect and confidence you showed them. You did it! You live with it!

[Feedman]

Sorry for the Multi-style response, but it seemed easier given the variety of issues that have been raised. Granted, the issues being raised aren't visible to the average sportsmen, you have to look "under the covers" to see who's in bed together. Then ask yourself, where (or from whom) did the crossbow issue originate, WHY, and WHY NOW??? If you will put on your "polarized" glasses so that you can see beneath the surface, I think many will come to the same conclusions. You may not agree, but this is the way I've "connected the dots" for myself.

Wonder why Tennessee voted on this issue this year. Must be a conspiracy going on down there too.

[turk2di]

X-bows will be allowed! Just not this year.There is no good reason to deny them. It simply happened to fast this year. May as well move on;)

[Multidigits]

Inefficiency, neglect of duty, misconduct, vendetta's, witch hunting, black helicopters, cry baby democrats, etc. All bull shit. Remember that two of the sitting Commission members were appointed by Fletcher.....are they also guilty as charged above, or did they roll over and let all those alleged things happen and decided to join the party????

And Joe Bland was an anti-crossbow person, How does he get on the short list?

Look out....here comes another black helicopter

[mossyhorns]

Wasn't this what killed Vince Foster?:rolleyes:

[skybuster]

Have not been following this deal real well and don't know where any answer is, my opion they, the xbows should hunt with the muzzleloaders.

[gwhilikerz]

Have not been following this deal real well and don't know where any answer is, my opion they, the xbows should hunt with the muzzleloaders.
We know your opinion skybuster. You've said the same thing in four different threads.

[spurs]

I have not heard a real reason as to why crossbows should not be legal archery equipment. They are as much archery equipment as a my knight rifle is muzzleloader equipment. They shoot an arrow,called a bolt, they have limbs, a string. Now i'll admit the skill level is not as high as shooting a bow, but neither is shooting a compound as high as a long bow, or loading a sabot, pyrodex pellets and using a 209 primer, is not quit the same as loading a round ball patch and priming the pan. I have heard that well xbows willbe a poachers dream. I think that if one chooses to violate the law, using a prohibited piece of equipment won't make a difference. The tag limit will stay the same, so killing to many deer won't fly. Deer would still have to be within a 30-35 yard range. Most deer I have harvested with my bow were well inside this. If a person who is not a real hardcore bow hunter is going to hunt with archery equipment, and not really spend quality practice time before season, I feel that the crossbow might be the way for them to go. They could, I think become proficent quicker with the xbow.I do not ever wish to own a xbow.I enjoy the challenge of the hunt and practice required with my compound, I do however feel that hunters need to support any ethical, legal, and humane hunting opportunities for all to enjoy.

[gwhilikerz]

Very well said Spurs

[schuyler olt]

No, it wasn't well said Spurs. Crossbows are and have been legal equipment in this state for decades.

This is about a 134 day EXPANSION of a season and the way it came about.

[Willie]

No, it wasn't well said Spurs. Crossbows are and have been legal equipment in this state for decades..

.....and had the left over crumbs of deer hunting when other archery equipment had the PRIME TIME.



This is about a 134 day EXPANSION of a season and the way it came about..

But the bigger story ended up being how it was rescinded, wasn't it?

We are still waiting on your proof of how the turkey biologist was "wrong".


.

[aceoky]

No, it wasn't well said Spurs. Crossbows are and have been legal equipment in this state for decades.

This is about a 134 day EXPANSION of a season and the way it came about.

With all due respect Sky; without proof of any harm to the herds/flocks, why oppose it???

"The way it came about", MAY be an issue, but why not fight THAT, instead of the extended season(which could have obtained data useful to both sides of the issue?)

What is not specualtion is: the chance of more hunters= more revenue, IMHO a "good thing"; a choice to use an x-bow or a "draw loc" TM; or NOT to use either, hunter numbers are on the decline, we all know this is a fact; and when given a chance to possibly change this at least somewhat, the new reg is fought and defeated, and the same people are still there(mostly), so I fail to see how anything other than some hunters(and those which bought x-bows thinking it was a "done deal" are at the top of the list) were "cheated" from "their" chance.....

IF change in how the Dept. does some things was/is the goal, I fail to see how anything has changed(other than the x-bow issue), which is very confusing for some of us, that hear THAT was the issue NOT the x-bow(but what DID change)???

And at what long-term cost? Only time will answer that....

[Big58cal]

You guys are confusing the heck out of me! In all honesty, I do value GG opinion on most things, but a lot of what he said on this one is 'way out there'. The truth of the matter is that TB was told to either retire or be fired (due to unexplainable 'expenditures' within the KDFWR). This is a good thing. We all pay our money in good faith that the money will be used for good things. When it's wasted, theres no excuse for it. As far as the crossbow issue being a smokescreen, I think that it may be reaching a little. The way I see it, Gassett did the right thing in cancelling it for the upcoming season. Do I like it? NO. But I can understand the reasoning, that being that the LRC was involved. If he cancelled the season for this year, then that would cause the LRC to back off of the issue, thus relieving some of the future "political influence" over other issues that may be introduced. One other reason is that it made him appear to be concerned about public input on the issue. Whether on not this was the case, only he can answer. However, in a press release issued by the KDFWR (and I quote),

"We have clear data that indicate allowing crossbow hunters to hunt throughout the archery season poses no biological threat to our white-tailed deer or wild turkeys. This is a social issue about shared use."

Those statements are Gassett's. The statements also tell me that he cancelled the season because of a bunch of whining by "bowhunters". Mark my word, there will be 'public input' on this, but next year, it will go through and be allowed. If there's no danger to the resource, and it allows more participation, then it can't be bad. As well, to go along with this, since Gassett was named the new KDFWR Commissioner today. My philosophy goes along with his. I'll quote again from a KDFWR new release (again, these are Gassett's words),

"We're getting aggressive," said Gassett. "We're going to think big on this one. There is a nationwide downward trend in the number of people who hunt and fish, and participation in hunting, fishing and boating is directly linked to opportunity."

He was mainly talking about public land acquisition, but his words hold true as far as expaned opportunity for deer hunters.

In closing, my intention wasn't to tick anyone off, or try to "call anyone out". It's simply meant as informative and to add a different view point. I don't think there's a conspiracy or cover-up. It may be hard to believe for some people, but sometimes, things like this just "happen". No conspiracy or cover-up at all. Sometimes, it's just time for them to happen, and they do.

[grouseguy]

Big58cal,

I too, have learned to value your perception on things, and have considered your personal "take" on the situation. I just see way too many actions, inactions, alliances, etc. that are out of character for the participants to fully accept that it just "happened". Then when you throw in the MOST significant fact that Schuyler, arguably the most qualified candidate, did not even make the short list, then I think its obvious that the whole process wasn't "pure", and that the commission was serious when they stated "we will not support those, who don't support us". This was all about the Commission retaining their unchallenged power.

However, in reviewing the entire fallout, considering that we started with Bennett running the show and wound up with Gassett, then the sportsmen definately "traded up". I just wish there had been more of a follow up on the Bennett "retirement" and that the KDFWR had went outside for a new leader, given the preexisting problems within the KDFWR, but I suppose I'm relatively satisfied with the outcome.

IMHO, the Commission itself came out of this whole cluster with the worst black-eye. They mishandled all aspects of this from the beginning, even though I'm sure they feel quite good about their "coup". Once again they have shown their priorities lie with their own interests, rather than the interests of the sportsmen or the resource.

Overall, the KDFWR has taken a step forward, even though they sustained a few self-inflicted body shots, but we missed a golden opportunity for a GIANT leap on behalf of the sportsmen and resource.

Time will tell...in the next 12 - 13 months, there could be 4 new commissioners appointed in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 8th. Depending on how those appointments go and how Gassett evolves with the demands of his new position, the sportsmen should know by then whether the tide has truly turned or if we've just been "playing with ourselves".

[DUOGLIDE]

I may be wrong but with gassett i believe that the commission has a commissioner who will work with/for them and not fight them to further his own personal agenda. and tb had a agenda and if you crossed him he would make you pay the price if he got the chance. with the new commissioner we will start anew and hopefully we can give him a chance to back up his talk with alot of actions to benefit the sportsmen and women of ky

[KeeKeeRun]

I agree with Duoglide. Give the man a chance. As far as GG, did you read the applications, sit in on the interviews, or was the part about schuyler a personal opinion? Gassett is the man. Lets all support him and the commission and see how they do. BTW, heard Hank Patton will be the next deputy Commissioner.

[kycowboy]

OH MAN you all are giving me a headache I have a question what kills more deer in this or any other state THE AUTOMOBILE

[Mit Sirrom]

If everyone would just take a deep breathe and relax.... anyone can purchase a compound bow at your local dealer or mail order one and have it sent directly to your home. At this time you be able to hunt during all the prime hunting times from start to finish. You will be able to practice until you hearts content. You can spend countless hours studying and scouting deer movement. You can do all the things that those of us bowhunters do. We do not discriminate against race, religion or age, height, sex, or weight. Please feel free to join us bowhunters at anytime, by the campfire. We would love to have you come and visit so that we can bowhunt together. Thank you for your time. Good wishes and good bowhunting.

[Willie]

Tim - "We do not discriminate against race, religion or age, height, sex, or weight."



Willie - Nope, you only discriminate in archery equipment..

After all - "it's a social issue...."


..

[Mit Sirrom]

No No No Oh there Willie Willie Pooh, You can buy a compound bow. I promise. Its OK. Go ahead, go now.

[Mit Sirrom]

I am social as hell, come on over! We will shoot our bows at each other, I mean with each other!!!

[KeeKeeRun]

I think they should ban all seasons except archery. That way the people who have the most will have more. Then we could all order a compound or long bow. I know I am wrong , but some act is if they own the resource/woods.

[DW]

Enuff said!