Spring turkey Harvest decline, again??

[Valley Station]

Why is Kentucky's Spring Turkey Season Harvest, in its third year in a row decline?? Fewer turkey hunters?? NO. Fewer tom turkeys ???????
Poor recruitment?? Previous Fall & winter harvest?? Poaching??
Previous Harvest
2002 - 28,292
2003 - 27,550
2004 - 26, 405
2005 - as of the end of the last week end of hunting, 5/01/05 - 21,994 birds
not likely to reach 2004 spring harvest

Any predictions for 2006??

[B.G.O. of Kentucky]

Smarter birds, dumber hunters! ;)

I will go with dumber hunters on my part! :)

[lab]

Latest update is 22,323. I don't understand the constant decrease. There are turkeys everywhere (in my area). Are the number of hunters declining?

[boonectyhunter5618]

what about the decline of spring hunters and the messed up spring weather we have in our part of the country. its kinda hard to hunt spring turkeys when it is raining cats and dogs and the next day its 28 and snowing. i blame mother nature on the decline of birds harvested

[Valley Station]

Boonecty,
That's normal spring weather. Weather the excuse, three years in a row??

[boonectyhunter5618]

yea i guess u are right about the previous years but u have to admit this spring weather has been worse than anyother year i can remember

[HappyHunter]

A late spring had flock break and breeding running behind. Alot of birds are still henned up right now. This combined with lousy weather during the season and poor recruitment are to blame. IMHO

[RDL270]

What is poor recruiment?

[B.G.O. of Kentucky]

Yeah, I saw quite a few hens for this late in the season while in LBL. I mean, I have seen more, but not this late. I think weather definitely hurt this year, but I agree, 3 years running. I think only 1 out of the last 3 hatches weren't good, and it wasn't a bad hatch, but I might be mistaken. Seems we have good numbers of birds overall, no decline there. I know in one area where there used to be birds all over the place, you only hear a few gobbles now, so some areas might be seeing some poaching. But I dont' think poaching is the culprit either, cause traditionally Eastern KY has a high poach rate and DBNF had a ton of birds taken.

I really don't know, this is a heck of a question.

State birds getting tougher to hunt? I know compared to public hunting birds, they are much easier to hunt, but maybe they are slowly adapting and becoming more educated each generation where in a few years, you will be hunting tougher birds all round.

Deer back in the day never looked in the trees, now, they seem to almost look for us bowhunters, so who knows?

[Hoosier5]

Latest update is 22,323. I don't understand the constant decrease. There are turkeys everywhere (in my area). Are the number of hunters declining?

I think you're right about the number of Hunters on the decline. Also the weather might have played a large part in the harvest reduction.

[Willie]

http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15472

[Multidigits]

Count the WMA birds in there also. they are listed separate this year. That makes 23,880 as of today. Poor hatch two years ago, and more hens to make things harder. Plus the season hit a week late for prime gobbling. All in all, it made for tuff hunting, but I didn't talk with anyone that saw or thought we had a shortage of birds to hunt. Looks rather normal to me, give or take a thousands birds or so. Still got some time left too.

[turk2di]

Poaching. Frankly, people are killin the piss out of them with no fear of being caught. Year round. Some of these ole boys drive by a turkey and they will shoot it, right out the window. But depsite all this, the birds are hanging in there.
As for this season in particular, the trend all year has been cooler than normal. Still seeing hens out messing around and most should be settin by now or dang close. Heck it frosted yesterday mornin along creeks and the rest of the week is the same until the weekend. A frost advisory for tommorrow here in Wky. In short, birds were behind when the season started and still are. By & large however, it boils down to the previous hatch's and your weather. JMHO!

[KentuckyTracker]

I think there are several factors at play here. Poor weather, decline in spring hunters in some areas, and in other areas oversaturation of hunters. I know that I have found it hard to see one bird in Daviess County since the end of the first week. Breckenridge county is still thriving with plenty, where as the other more populated counties are depleted.

I have also spoken with the warden on several occasions and poaching is on the rise. Only God knows why someone would want to poach turkey! It's almost like a sicko that has an obession with killing things.

[RutNBuck]

could it be that some of the hunters are taking advantage of the tele -chek with each passing year they seem to find that its easier to get by without checking in a bird??????

i will also say that for some unknown reasons many of the hunters that used to call and tell me bout the birds they got no longer hunt them..its like they just gave up on them...each season my phone rings off the hook with
"Got me a BigUn" this year phone never rang..

[turk2di]

could it be that some of the hunters are taking advantage of the tele -chek with each passing year they seem to find that its easier to get by without checking in a bird??????

i will also say that for some unknown reasons many of the hunters that used to call and tell me bout the birds they got no longer hunt them..its like they just gave up on them...each season my phone rings off the hook with
"Got me a BigUn" this year phone never rang..
I don't think it's tele-chek. Afterall, tele-chek is after ya got home. It's the no fear of seeing a warden from the time of kill to the truck. The bird is supposed to be logged onto the back of your license b4 u remove the bird,b4 u even pick it up! If u fill out the log on the back of your license, then it's gonna be called in. It's not tele-chek if there is a problem, it's the killee not writing it on his license when he killed the bird!

[Willie]

Maybe it is getting too easy to kill a turkey?

There are lots more turkeys that there used to be and after awhile some folks just stop hunting since it becomes less and less of a challenge than it used to be.

I know I don't consider it on a par with hunting a mature whitetail.

The first year I turkey hunted in Indiana there were less than 3 dozen killed statewide. Talk about a challenge. No I wasn't one of them. ;)

Now every dedicated turkey hunter I know gets one. A friend of mine turkey hunted a total of two hours and had two turkeys. One in Indiana and one in Illinois.

Last I heard from the NWTF turkey hunter numbers were growing nationwide. In individual states? Who knows??

Like I said - food for thought..

[KentuckyTracker]

Well, it could also be similar to what turk2di had to say with a little different "flavor" to it! I'll be willing to bet that there are several hunters out there that have taken past their allowed limit. After shooting 2 or 3 they decide to write it in on the next one. I will bet my bottom dollar that there are several dishonest hunters that have taken at least 5 birds this season, and have only claimed 2! It is just the nature of the beast. That's what happens when you let people govern themselves. Tele-Check has kept the honest hunter honest, and the dishonest hunter has a better chance of taking more than his limit without any REAL consequences. You have to admit, it is very addictive. And for someone who doesn't have any morals or ethics, that is a haven for them to run amuck and do as they wish. They take the bird home, and get all of the meat, and fan and beard it. Then they are out again the next morning, acting like they haven't gotten a turkey yet! Makes me sick, but it's the honest truth it does happen.

For example, 3 years ago I saw the same deer hunter 4 times with deer on 4 different days. Everytime, he looked like he was hiding something, and up to no good. You know he didn't tag all of those deer legally!

[turk2di]

Any hunter that takes a step with his turkey without fillin in the info on the back has poached! Tele-chek ain't the problem. Lack of spending the money to hire Co's is the main problem. No fear of seeing one. These guy's(co's) r stretched way too thin. Until the KDF&W spends the money to protect the time and investments of thousands over the years, wildlife will lead very tenuious lives!

[Multidigits]

Even if the CO staff was full, it wouldn't be enough to be everywhere at once. Peer pressure is the only way to limit it. If you know it's happening, you have to get involved and do something about it. Personally, I don't know anyone who has gotten over the limit, but do know some very good turkey hunters who haven't scored this year because of the conditions, not the lack of birds.

[skin_dog1]

I think you're right about the number of Hunters on the decline. Also the weather might have played a large part in the harvest reduction.
This should be answered by the number of tags sold. Also, more and more border line hunters may realize how easy it is to get away with not calling them in. Then again, maybe bird numbers are down. We'll probably never know the answer to any of these. I did my part for a record harvest!

[mossyhorns]

You can't harvest a bird in the spring that was killed last fall.

[skin_dog1]

You can't harvest a bird in the spring that was killed last fall.
Good point. I'm not trying to start another crossbow argument, BUT with 4 tags in the fall and crossbows in the woods the fall harvest WILL go up. I'll bet the harvest continues to decline. Next year it may go up some cause we'll have an extra week.

[turk2di]

Good point. I'm not trying to start another crossbow argument, BUT with 4 tags in the fall and crossbows in the woods the fall harvest WILL go up. I'll bet the harvest continues to decline. Next year it may go up some cause we'll have an extra week.
Tagged out hunters calling for others in the spring kill more turkeys than fall hunting;)

[skin_dog1]

Tagged out hunters calling for others in the spring kill more turkeys than fall hunting;)Thats not fair! Without that the spring season could get pretty boring!

[lab]

Tagged out hunters calling for others in the spring kill more turkeys than fall hunting;)

I don't know why you are making such a big deal out of this. Yes I am tagged out. Yes I helped one of my friends (who has never killed a bird) take his first bird this weekend. Would you rather have people wuit hunting all together because of disgust, or would you rather someone like myself, help those who have had some hard luck bag a bird and get the fever even worse? I do not see anything wrong with those of us who were fortunate enough to tag out fairly early help those who are less fortunate. Just my .02.

[Valley Station]

"Feathered rat mentality" being used by poachers to "justify illegal shooting" of turkey during deer season, particularly over corn piles and feeders.
When was the last time you heard of a poacher being caught for poaching a turkey in the fall?? There are way to many turkey being shot during deer gun season. That has to be corrected!

[HUNTERJOE]

i say it was the bad weather this year and because the kentucky department of fish and wildlife raised the falll limits to two birds and the year before last the had a bad hatch

[N2MyWake]

Tagged out hunters calling for others in the spring kill more turkeys than fall hunting;)

Another point that I think lab-lover and skin-dog need to point out is by having an experienced hunter call for new/inexperienced hunters is a great way to educate. I would much rather be hunting in the same woods with someone who uses the call effectively rather than constant yelping.

[Multidigits]

Good point. I'm not trying to start another crossbow argument, BUT with 4 tags in the fall and crossbows in the woods the fall harvest WILL go up. I'll bet the harvest continues to decline. Next year it may go up some cause we'll have an extra week

Thats not fair! Without that the spring season could get pretty boring!

Let's see, we tripled the kill by adding another prime week to teh Fall gun season. It must be popular, because the bird count was up. That's called adding oppurtunity. the hunters wanted it, for the most part. Of those tripled total, archers overall killed less than 900 birds total with those two archery tags. IF, and it won't happen, because crossbows kill at the same rate as archery hunters, the fall kill goes up, it will be modest and it will be extra oppurtunity. Just what the hunters want.

Besides that, we're talking about NOW and the decline NOW. Anyone think that is because of teh crossbow is crazy as a loon.

[Multidigits]

What's really amazing is that people are trying their best to put a negative face on this years turkey season, when after all, it will end up being fairly normal inspite of the KYDFWR saying it would be sub-par because of fewer 2 yr. old gobblers in the flock. Nobody has claimed about to few birds, just that they are harder to work. that alone will continue with the Saturday opener and the longer season. Bottom line, the turkey flock is doing fine, and hunters are getting after them in record numbers.

[mossyhorns]

I don't think archery season will have a big impact on turkeys as the small kill numbers indicate. I fear that two sessions of shotgun hunting in the fall does have an impact.

You have to read between the lines when F&W Departments talk about fall hunting. "Effect on population" is not equal to "quality of hunting." According to studies by KY's Wright and MO's Vangilder, the number of birds that can be taken each year without putting the population in overall decline is greater than the number of birds it takes to noticably affect hunting quality.

They also claim that the population can stand 10% fall harvest without declining, but this speaks nothing to spring hunting quality. Vangilder's research indicates that hunting quality can be maintained as long as fewer than 35% of adult toms are taken each year. Wright's study indicated that over 60% of KY's adult toms were being taken each year.

THe same thing works for deer and for ducks. Many of you have seen your deer hunting quality decrease through efforts to slow the growth of the deer herd. Duck hunters haven't had "quality" in years although wildlife managers claim that the population can sustain current harvest levels.

So the whole debate can be summed up as being quantity (more opportunites = more license sales) v. quality. Perhaps we can kill hens and toms in the fall and expand the spring season without putting the population in decline. If this is want KY's hunters want, then great. But when F&W says fall hunting and expanded seasons will have "no effect", they are talking about overall populations, not overall quality of hunting.

You can have more opportunities or better quality -- but you can seldom have both at the same time.
(Survival of Eastern Wild Turkey Males in Western Kentucky, George Wright and Larry Vangilder, Proceedings of the NWTF Symposium 2001.)
(Wild Turkey Harvest Management Plan: 1998-2002, Larry D. Vangilder, MO. Department of Conservation.)

[Valley Station]

Mossy,
George's report indicating 60% adult tom mortallity was before the extended gun and archery fall/winter hunting seasons were established and the arrival of "feathered rat" mentality of poachers.
Wonder what the current mortality rate ?? This is something we really need to watch and have regulation corrections made were necessary!

[Multidigits]

I agree with Mossy, that the quality hunts will be fewer because of the weekend opener, and the extended season. Birds will continue to be hard to kill, but they still will be killed. It's the price of success maybe. One things for sure, it's not the fault of the crossbow change, which seems to be a common dumping site for every ill effect we see from now on.

[Valley Station]

Yep, I remember how well we had it before the big change in 2004, 1BC.
1BC ( one year before cross bow).

[Multidigits]

659 added since yesterday. Might get there yet?

[CPA Hunter]

5 or 6 years ago I could hunt a bird on Sunday and come back the next Saturday and he would not be buggered -- now you better kill that bird and not mess around and think you can let him rest until another day. The good Ole days are gone in KY for quality of gobbling all season as popularity in turkey hunting increased. Now I can hear calls coming off of our farm about any morning that are not hens.

Turkey hunting has been big down south longer than here and you'll find the hunting there is similar to how it is becoming here --TOUGH! Lots of hens, lots of hunters and birds soon realize gobbling causes as many hunters as hens to show up. Turkeys ain't smart, but again they ain't that dumb either.

[turk2di]

I don't know why you are making such a big deal out of this. Yes I am tagged out. Yes I helped one of my friends (who has never killed a bird) take his first bird this weekend. Would you rather have people wuit hunting all together because of disgust, or would you rather someone like myself, help those who have had some hard luck bag a bird and get the fever even worse? I do not see anything wrong with those of us who were fortunate enough to tag out fairly early help those who are less fortunate. Just my .02.
Im not saying anything is wrong with assisting others. Hell i have done it..This year! But b4 we all go blaming the extended fall gun season as a culprit for lesser number of tom's gobbling, being killed or it's getting tuffer, we must acknowledge that there are many Tom's killed in the spring that otherwise would not have.

[BIG DADDY]

I don't want to start a argument about leasing land. Think about it that way. My hunting club use to lease land. In a short time it went from a $1 to $8 an acer very quick in the last few years. I think that has alot to do with it. We no longer lease that land. Our club has deminished. I still have some private land to hunt. No birds on it but I get to go. THat is all I need is a place to get away. All the birds are next door on another guys land. So when people can no longer afford to lease that leaves PUBLIC LAND. Anybody who has ever hunted it nows how hard that can be. You have more people calling at birds and educating them. Which makes it harder. In my openion this has a little to do with the decline of bird numbers being harvested. My dad talked to a CO a couble years back and he said there was a die out of birds. This also could be affecting the numbers. BUT THERE IS A BIG DECLINE BECAUSE OF THE PRICE OF LEASING. WE HAD 12 MEMBERS WITH AT LEAST 1 KID TO EACH ADULT. THESE GUYS NO LOGER HAVE A PRIVATE LAND TO HUNT SO CHOOSE NOT TO HUNT TURKEY. DO THE MATH. IF THEY ONLY TOOK 1 BIRD each THAT IS 24 BIRDS AND MOST OF THEM TOOK 2. I FIGURE THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO ALOT OF THE OTHER TURKEY HUNTERS. THAT WOULD SHOW A BIG DECLINE IN NUMBERS. I have noticed where i hunt now there seem to be less birds gobbling than 8 or 9 years ago.

[gobbl4me]

I think the weather is the main culprit for this years low numbers. I know for a fact that the toms didn't break out of their groups till the monday before the thursday opener here in my neck of the woods. I've never seen such a cold windy april as we have had this year reminds me of march. I wonder how all this cold weather is going to effect this years hatch we have had a couple of days with well below freezing temps? I have also noticed that the majority of the birds killed have been 3 yr olds there doesnt sem to be a whole lot of two year olds runnin around which could also contribute to the lack of gobblin usally heard.

[Hoosier5]

I don't want to start a argument about leasing land. Think about it that way. My hunting club use to lease land. In a short time it went from a $1 to $8 an acer very quick in the last few years. I think that has alot to do with it. We no longer lease that land. Our club has deminished. I still have some private land to hunt. No birds on it but I get to go. THat is all I need is a place to get away. All the birds are next door on another guys land. So when people can no longer afford to lease that leaves PUBLIC LAND. Anybody who has ever hunted it nows how hard that can be. You have more people calling at birds and educating them. Which makes it harder. In my openion this has a little to do with the decline of bird numbers being harvested. My dad talked to a CO a couble years back and he said there was a die out of birds. This also could be affecting the numbers. BUT THERE IS A BIG DECLINE BECAUSE OF THE PRICE OF LEASING. WE HAD 12 MEMBERS WITH AT LEAST 1 KID TO EACH ADULT. THESE GUYS NO LOGER HAVE A PRIVATE LAND TO HUNT SO CHOOSE NOT TO HUNT TURKEY. DO THE MATH. IF THEY ONLY TOOK 1 BIRD each THAT IS 24 BIRDS AND MOST OF THEM TOOK 2. I FIGURE THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO ALOT OF THE OTHER TURKEY HUNTERS. THAT WOULD SHOW A BIG DECLINE IN NUMBERS. I have noticed where i hunt now there seem to be less birds gobbling than 8 or 9 years ago.

I agree with you on this price increase of leasing vs number of Hunters staying home. It will only get worse as our economy and the price of gasoline/oil get worse . We Hunters are really facing big challanges in the very near future.

[turk2di]

I think the weather is the main culprit for this years low numbers. I know for a fact that the toms didn't break out of their groups till the monday before the thursday opener here in my neck of the woods. I've never seen such a cold windy april as we have had this year reminds me of march. I wonder how all this cold weather is going to effect this years hatch we have had a couple of days with well below freezing temps? I have also noticed that the majority of the birds killed have been 3 yr olds there doesnt sem to be a whole lot of two year olds runnin around which could also contribute to the lack of gobblin usally heard.
Still time to warm up. Vast majority of birds ain't hatched yet.

[Multidigits]

I agree with you on this price increase of leasing vs number of Hunters staying home. It will only get worse as our economy and the price of gasoline/oil get worse . We Hunters are really facing big challanges in the very near future.

24,000 birds and climbing and folks staying home is a joke. Leases accounted for some of those birds. I know of at least a couple of dozen for sure.

[Turkeyhunter5]

birds are really smart and their are fewer hunters

[Multidigits]

The fact that there are fewer hunters is a myth. Same as the fact that fall hunting has lessened our chances this spring. 2747 Gobblers killed last fall and checked. Not a factor. Look elsewhere. Maybe nothing is wrong? Maybe a tuff year? Maybe, maybe not. One things for certain, the number of turkey hunters in Ky. is at an all time high.

[turk2di]

The fact that there are fewer hunters is a myth. Same as the fact that fall hunting has lessened our chances this spring. 2747 Gobblers killed last fall and checked. Not a factor. Look elsewhere. Maybe nothing is wrong? Maybe a tuff year? Maybe, maybe not. One things for certain, the number of turkey hunters in Ky. is at an all time high.
Purty much sums it up!

[Feedman]

If we want to improve quality of the hunt, why don't we do the following:

1. Fall Season---------- Hens only

2. Spring Season-------- One Gobbler only.

This will increase the number of adult male birds, more gobbling, more sightings, etc.

This will have tagged out hunters out of the woods, birds won't be as spooked, everyone will have a higher quality hunting experience.

[Roost em 1st]

The fact that there are fewer hunters is a myth. Same as the fact that fall hunting has lessened our chances this spring. 2747 Gobblers killed last fall and checked. Not a factor. Look elsewhere. Maybe nothing is wrong? Maybe a tuff year? Maybe, maybe not. One things for certain, the number of turkey hunters in Ky. is at an all time high.

I found many more hunters on public ground this year compared to last. It screwed up 4 days of my hunting. I went weekdays and weekends. I killed my limit there every year for the last 4. This year my best opp was foiled when a boat pulled into the mouth of the cove and fired up a slate. The gobblin bird I had working around the cove hushed up and vanished. More hunters on public ground kept me from taking my limit there.
Finally took a young bird this am on private ground where nobody has been hunting. The bird gobbled well and came in unwary, well as unwary as a Turkey can be. No trophy, 5/8" spurs and 8 " beard. White meat none the less

This was a tough season for me due to the time I did get out. I hit the wrong days on good places and the days that were going right on public ground went sour do to other "henters" screwing with birds. I may go in the morning but probably shouldn't due to work. Thinking about a TN lic for 2006 Spring.

This fall I'll be trying to eliminate hens.

[KentuckyTracker]

I'm supposed to be getting back with the game warden tomorrow. It might be an interesting find. Something about the statistics in Unbreed Hens made my ears perk today, and my heart sink at the same time. I talked to him over coffee, and he said he will be getting back to me. Supposedly they are doing a statistical analysis. I told him that I would be glad to help, all they need to do is call. Doesn't matter to me if I get paid! It's still in my blood and I can't shake it!:)

[Hoosier5]

The fact that there are fewer hunters is a myth. Same as the fact that fall hunting has lessened our chances this spring. 2747 Gobblers killed last fall and checked. Not a factor. Look elsewhere. Maybe nothing is wrong? Maybe a tuff year? Maybe, maybe not. One things for certain, the number of turkey hunters in Ky. is at an all time high.

Multi, I really hate to differ with you on your statement/post, as I really don't want to argue about it. But the fact is, and numbers back it up, the number of Hunters nationwide is on the decline. Personally I believe it is one of the following factors: (1) Lack of interest by youngsters. (2) Computer games. (3) Lack of Hunting areas. (4) Economic reasons ie: The general cost of hunting, as to equipment and licenses fees. When I first started Hunting deer in Kentucky and here in Indiana; opening day sounded like a war as many shots were heard and the many hunters also. The past few years it has been the opposite very few gun shots being heard and very few hunters seen afield.

[turk2di]

Multi, I really hate to differ with you on your statement/post, as I really don't want to argue about it. But the fact is, and numbers back it up, the number of Hunters nationwide is on the decline. Personally I believe it is one of the following factors: (1) Lack of interest by youngsters. (2) Computer games. (3) Lack of Hunting areas. (4) Economic reasons ie: The general cost of hunting, as to equipment and licenses fees. When I first started Hunting deer in Kentucky and here in Indiana; opening day sounded like a war as many shots were heard and the many hunters also. The past few years it has been the opposite very few gun shots being heard and very few hunters seen afield.
Not to argue here either. The overall trend may well be in a downward slope, but i believe Multi was refering to turkey hunting numbers, which show an increase each year in license sales. I guess in short, were it not for the emergence of the wild turkey, we would be in trouble.. What a paradox of sorts! We sportsmen saved the turkey who in turn may be saving the sportsmen:confused:;)

[Multidigits]

Multi, I really hate to differ with you on your statement/post, as I really don't want to argue about it. But the fact is, and numbers back it up, the number of Hunters nationwide is on the decline. Personally I believe it is one of the following factors: (1) Lack of interest by youngsters. (2) Computer games. (3) Lack of Hunting areas. (4) Economic reasons ie: The general cost of hunting, as to equipment and licenses fees. When I first started Hunting deer in Kentucky and here in Indiana; opening day sounded like a war as many shots were heard and the many hunters also. The past few years it has been the opposite very few gun shots being heard and very few hunters seen afield.

Do all the unscientic analysis that you want. The facts are, and any game agency can back you up on it with real statistical numbers is that turkey hunter numbers are up. Ky went from from 70,000 last year to nearly 90,000 this year. And Indiana has an expanding flock and expanding numbers with lots of new hunters entering the fields each new year. as for deer hunters, those numbers for both states have remained solid for several years, at about the same for both states--270,000 hunters or so.

The drop is in small game hunters, not big game hunting.

[Valley Station]

So-o-o-o , we have a lot more spring turkey hunters in the field , currently harvesting fewer turkey. What's wrong with that scenario??

[turk2di]

So-o-o-o , we have a lot more spring turkey hunters in the field , currently harvesting fewer turkey. What's wrong with that scenario??
I'd say the state is reaping alot of money without losing much in assets;) Just jokin:D Once again, with the age class of gobbling birds, the weather which u have to admit has trended cool thru-out with some rain, and i think Ky's birds are getting wise since they r hunted for nearly 1/2 a year. It's not any one thing but a combo.

[HappyHunter]

I think I missed the section in the hunting guide that says we will have a record harvest every year. ;)

[sirgiovanni]

I have more turkeys in my hunting area, every year. But we are experiencing the same harvest decline on our ground as the state records show. I don't believe in any way it is due to over hunting. I think it's the opposite. There are so many damn hens on our ground that it has been next to impossible to get interest from a tom. Our group hunted the ground just as hard as we do every year, and even had more people than normal. But we only took 2 birds out of the whole group. The first bird was snatched away from 2 hens he was following and they almost blew the harvest. Too many hens, I think.

[Hoosier5]

Do all the unscientic analysis that you want. The facts are, and any game agency can back you up on it with real statistical numbers is that turkey hunter numbers are up. Ky went from from 70,000 last year to nearly 90,000 this year. And Indiana has an expanding flock and expanding numbers with lots of new hunters entering the fields each new year. as for deer hunters, those numbers for both states have remained solid for several years, at about the same for both states--270,000 hunters or so.

The drop is in small game hunters, not big game hunting.

I read an article in my local paper confirming that the number of hunters is on the decline nation wide, which I find shocking. I didn't just make it up as you might suggest. As for small game hunters, yes, you're right about a decline here too but deer and turkey hunters are way down also. The States are never going to admit in the fact that the number of hunters are down (bad for business), but from my own experience in both Indiana and Kentucky I've see fewer Hunters afield in the past several years. There quite possibly be a few areas where hunter participation numbers are stable or increased a little but that doesn't mean there is a growing number of hunters.

[Multidigits]

So-o-o-o , we have a lot more spring turkey hunters in the field , currently harvesting fewer turkey. What's wrong with that scenario??

A lot of them don't know how to turkey hunt, making it hard for those who do know how. Plus, there's a large majority of them that only hunt a day or two and quit. Most experienced turkey hunters continue to kill their two birds each year, this year was no exception.

[CPA Hunter]

Multi hit the nail on the head. Year after year the same guys tag out and this year was no different and year after year a few start and quit but some hang on and make turkey hunters.

Folks, turkey hunting takes some time to get good at it. I don't know squat, but I know I get a little better each year and tags get filled a little easier.

[Multidigits]

25,141 total with one more big day to go!

[skin_dog1]

25,141 total with one more big day to go!Sounds like thay might make it! What do you think multi? Seems like alot of birds in the last couple of days. Conspiracy? I've heard you say it before!!!

[Willie]

I read an article in my local paper confirming that the number of hunters is on the decline nation wide, which I find shocking. I didn't just make it up as you might suggest. As for small game hunters, yes, you're right about a decline here too but deer and turkey hunters are way down also. The States are never going to admit in the fact that the number of hunters are down (bad for business), but from my own experience in both Indiana and Kentucky I've see fewer Hunters afield in the past several years. There quite possibly be a few areas where hunter participation numbers are stable or increased a little but that doesn't mean there is a growing number of hunters.

The Indiana DNR has released information that verifies what you have said about Indiana. We have lost hunters - deer, turkey and small game.

If we don't recruit new hunters hunting will die a slow death. A fact of life...

[Multidigits]

Sounds like thay might make it! What do you think multi? Seems like alot of birds in the last couple of days. Conspiracy? I've heard you say it before!!!

I don't remember saying there was a conspiracy on spring turkey numbers. Maybe you can refresh my aging mind? I predict we'll be near a record, but not setting the record. Always a lot of birds killed in the last few days. some of that may be guys updating their logs to take care of those that they forgot to call in?

[Multidigits]

The Indiana DNR has released information that verifies what you have said about Indiana. We have lost hunters - deer, turkey and small game.

If we don't recruit new hunters hunting will die a slow death. A fact of life...

Post it up. I'd like to see the numbers, especially turkey hunters? You also need to post up the number of deer checked on lifetime and landowner free permits, as this takes away from licenses sold each year.

[turk2di]

The Indiana DNR has released information that verifies what you have said about Indiana. We have lost hunters - deer, turkey and small game.

If we don't recruit new hunters hunting will die a slow death. A fact of life...
No way turkey numbers are down, ANYWHERE! Perhaps the rest of them,small game ect. I know for a fact you don't see anywhere near the fall squirrell hunters you used too. Down in the Uniontown bottoms back in the late 60's thru mid-70's when i began hunting it looked like Peabody on opening day of turkey season there would be so many hunters parked along side the roads. Now you might find two or three,first day! After that, lucky to find one.

[Hoosier5]

Post it up. I'd like to see the numbers, especially turkey hunters? You also need to post up the number of deer checked on lifetime and landowner free permits, as this takes away from licenses sold each year.

Multi, you may be right on the "Lifetime" Licenses, but the number of Hunters are in a decline. I found the following article:


Less deer hunters
---------------------
While the statewide deer herd has remained nearly stable during recent
years, Mitchell says generic deer license sales have declined significantly
and progressively. "Much of the decline represents changes in how many
licenses each hunter buys rather than a decrease in the number of deer
hunters," said Mitchell.

Deer hunters can either buy multiple licenses each year or can buy a single
more expensive lifetime license that covers all future license needs. Before
the last hunting license fee increase in 2001, the DNR sold almost 22,000
lifetime licenses. "The huge increase in lifetime license sales contributed
significantly to the reduction in generic deer hunting license sales," said
Mitchell.
Hunter surveys also indicate the increase in the cost of basic deer hunting
licenses, a lagging economy and a change in deer hunting regulations all
contributed to reduced license purchases.
While the sales of generic deer licenses declined by 45 percent between 1997
and 2002, independent estimates indicate that during the same time interval
the number of deer hunters declined between 22 and 25 percent. A survey
conducted by the DNR estimated that there were 169,000 deer hunters in
Indiana in 2002. Mitchell says some change in hunter numbers is cyclical. "As the deer herd
expanded during the 1980s, the number of deer hunters also expanded. Now
that the deer herd is nearly stable, the number of deer hunters is beginning
to decline. The DNR believes current levels of deer hunters are still
sufficient to keep the statewide deer population stabilized."

Local deer population problems
---------------------------------------
Mitchell notes that the decline in the number of deer hunters since the late
1990s has not prevented the state from being able to currently control the
statewide deer herd, but there are localized areas where hunting is not
permitted or is limited to such an extent that the local deer herd is
expanding.

"As more rural land is developed for suburban housing, marginal deer habitat
is converted into excellent habitat with abundant food and cover, while
hunting which previously controlled the herd is reduced or eliminated," said
Mitchell.

"Even where some hunting continues, most subdivided farms have fewer total
hunting efforts than prior to the change in ownership. If the hunting
pressure on any of the local deer herds across the state significantly
declines during the next decade, then unwanted deer population growth will
occur." I am uncertain about the Turkey Hunters though but I can imagine that How the Numbers of Deer Hunter so go the Number of Turkey Hunters. Turkey Hunting is still quite "young" here in Indiana.

[skin_dog1]

I don't remember saying there was a conspiracy on spring turkey numbers. Maybe you can refresh my aging mind? I predict we'll be near a record, but not setting the record. Always a lot of birds killed in the last few days. some of that may be guys updating their logs to take care of those that they forgot to call in?Is that what puts the deer numbers over the top?

[Valley Station]

Maybe, we need to ask for an investigation in allegations by a 3rd District person, who was known but not named, as having over heard Multi making statements that there was "a conspiracy on spring turkey harvest numbers."

[Multidigits]

VS- That's Cyberhunter stuff and doesn't need to be cut and pasted outside of there. Been there and learned it's not a good thing to do.

[Multidigits]

Is that what puts the deer numbers over the top?

different day, different reasons. Skinner, you can look at the numbers and add them up anyway that makes you happy. Deer and turkeys.

[Willie]

Add another one to the pot..

My son just called me from down in KY and he got a gobbler this morning.

This year he has killed birds in Texas, Indiana and KY. He is taking a young man out on his first turkey hunt tomorrow in Indiana.

Multi,

I can't find the information on small game and turkey hunters (new PC) but it is well publicized that the number fo deer hunters is down in Indiana. Not just license sales, but the number of actual hunters in the woods.

The only thing saving the IDNR's bacon on controlling the herd is that 41% of the deer hunters do NOT buy tags. That would include lifetime license holders (35,000+), landowner/leassees, military and youth. Basically free deer tags and that 41% is killing more deer than the 59%.

[Multidigits]

Multi, you may be right on the "Lifetime" Licenses, but the number of Hunters are in a decline. I found the following article:

"Much of the decline represents changes in how many
licenses each hunter buys rather than a decrease in the number of deer
hunters," said Mitchell.

"or can buy a single more expensive lifetime license that covers all future license needs." "The huge increase in lifetime license sales contributed significantly to the reduction in generic deer hunting license sales," said Mitchell.

While the sales of generic deer licenses declined by 45 percent between 1997
and 2002, independent estimates indicate that during the same time interval
the number of deer hunters declined between 22 and 25 percent. A survey
conducted by the DNR estimated that there were 169,000 deer hunters in
Indiana in 2002.

I am uncertain about the Turkey Hunters though but I can imagine that How the Numbers of Deer Hunter so go the Number of Turkey Hunters. Turkey Hunting is still quite "young" here in Indiana.


You win....now explain why your always bitching about no place to hunt???

[turk2di]

" I am uncertain about the Turkey Hunters though but I can imagine that How the Numbers of Deer Hunter so go the Number of Turkey Hunters. Turkey Hunting is still quite "young" here in Indiana."

__________________
I would suspect that the less than stellar numbers of birds to hunt in Indiana would make it tuff to recruit new hunters there. Not much push by the state to expand opportunities! Indiana is probally not a good state to pour over figures to get a National feel. JMHO!

[Willie]

Our turkey biologist predicted a record year of 12,000+ birds.

This late start might be the undoing of his predcition.

In the next round of public input I'm going to ask for zones. We are a tall vertical state. As KY is a long horizontal state.

The southern areas of Indiana are way ahead of the northern areas. More birds down here too..

[turk2di]

Our turkey biologist predicted a record year of 12,000+ birds.

This late start might be the undoing of his predcition.

In the next round of public input I'm going to ask for zones. We are a tall vertical state. As KY is a long horizontal state.

The southern areas of Indiana are way ahead of the northern areas. More birds down here too..
Best of luck to ya!

[Bee]

tennessee is talking about raising limit to four birds in the spring...many hunters are not comfortable that this proposal is in the best interst of the maintenance of quality hunting... very interesting reading....http://64.226.43.230/tnturkey/ubb_5.47e/NonCGI/Forum21/HTML/004630.html

[gates]

There may be areas of high bird populations but the 2 spots I have to hunt this year I only saw 2 gobblers, one was 23# 1.125"spurs and 9.5" beard. I hope the other one lives because I saw about 15 hens and he was the only male in the area. The neighbors even commented on the lack of birds this year.

James

[Multidigits]

...........25,981

[SUPERDUCK]

25,981 + 20,000 additional hunters= hunter success on the decline,available opportunitys topped out; with additional days on the books. ie. Sat opener and additional days= oversold.

[Hoosier5]

You win....now explain why your always bitching about no place to hunt???

No one really wins, Multi. Also I have ample places to hunt, thank you very much. I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't use words like "Bitching" when replying to my post as I find it immature, if one has to use it or a few other 4-letter words to convey their point. I really can't take them seriously.

[maxcam]

Guys have any of you ever read the Mortality rate of mature gobblers in the state of Kentucky? We have been harvesting about 6 out of 10 mature longbeards for a while now. That along with the fact that the KDFW has changed the harvest rate on turkey for 6 years running and you can see why some sportsmen are so dead set against the crossbow proposal.......Jim Lane stated to me in March that we were very close in losing tags for the spring turkey season. He is concerned about the numbers of mature gobblers being harvested. There was a dramatic increase in the numbers of birds harvested from 2000 to 2001. Why? I personally think it was because the season was extended what 10 days or so. Now with an ever revolving change by the department on tags we are seeing the effects that it is having on the mature turkey population. You cannot make drastic changes on a resource that is as fragile as the wild turkey....It must evolve slowly........The wild turkey population is not a hardy bunch.........Weather in the spring is just a small part of the equation. What about the effects of the poor mast crop we had last fall? I feel that is going to prove equally as devastating to the turkey......How many squirrels did you see during turkey season? Did you know the mortality rate of a Jake is 50 percent from spring to spring?
As far as concerns about hunter numbers being down.....I dont think so. The membership of the state NWTF are healthy ...over 20,000 members......and with the improvements in equipment...i.e. heavy shot, more 3.5 inch shotguns and custom loads the range of todays turkey hunter should be at least 40 yards.............
The bad hatches weve experienced are definately the problem.....but the KDFW should have taken that factor in to account before they started over selling the resource.

[turk2di]

If it comes to pass that the extended fall gun season is a drain on the resource, i would have no problem takin back a week or bird. But it galls me to hear about gobbler mortality figures in the spring, many times from hunters who after tagging out called in 5 or 6 for others who wouldn't otherwise called one in. Makes me a stick in the mudd? I reckon, but we ALL know of tagged out guy's who called in numerous birds for others. Purty good drain there. Just another facet to acknowledge. Perhaps hatching figures should be pondered b4 allowing the second week of fall gun hunting(dec). Now they r goin to allow a 4th week for guns(spring) when we were turned down for an extra week of archery only a year or two ago! MONEY!!!!!!!

[KYhunter]

A couple things to ponder. End each spring hunting day at 1pm. With next years expanded season there should be no excuse for anyone not having an opportunity to hunt. It doesn't take but a day or two of every person with an owl or peacock call doing the "run-and-gun" to give those birds lock-jaw- and that carries over to the next morning. Get out of the woods at 1 and let things settle down. Another item to think about is the turkey numbers themselves. Each fall, in an effort to sell fall turkey tags, the dept makes statements urging hunters to harvest fall turkeys because of 40-50% winter mortality, yet those reported population estimates NEVER reflect that. If 40-50% of the population is lost out of 225,000 birds(fall estimates) then how in the world can one have a spring estimate of 250,000?

[turk2di]

I like the 1pm close!

[jarhedhntr]

My .02. This was my first year turkey hunting and in 2 days, I saw 12 birds, 3 toms and 9 hens. But I heard 10 gobblers on roost and only saw 1 other hunter. Until this year it had been 6 years since I had hunted anything other than Iraqis (haha) and this is the first year I had ever seen a turkey, ever. I feel like the number of birds is good. One thing that seemed to be the common tone of the previous post's is quality of the hunt. I thought that the whole point was what was good for the flock or the heard, not what made hunters happy. Everyone needs to realize that the quality of the hunt has nothing to do with killing a turkey, it is being out there with the hope of killing a turkey and enjoying the outdoors. Look at it from my stand point, I would have been happy with just hearing or seeing a bird this year. That experience would have been plenty, I got lucky and top off the experience. My hunting partner (1st time hunter) witnessed the hunt and he said he didn't care if we saw or killed anything else at all. He now is hooked on the outdoors and turkeys and never killed a bird, just witnessed how damn awesome it is to be near them. Try not to forget that. And I'm spent.

[elkguy]

Jarhed,

Thanks for your service to our country. My son is now in the 2nd Recon Battalion, 2nd Division at Camp Lejuene.

[skin_dog1]

My .02. This was my first year turkey hunting and in 2 days, I saw 12 birds, 3 toms and 9 hens. But I heard 10 gobblers on roost and only saw 1 other hunter. Until this year it had been 6 years since I had hunted anything other than Iraqis (haha) and this is the first year I had ever seen a turkey, ever. I feel like the number of birds is good. One thing that seemed to be the common tone of the previous post's is quality of the hunt. I thought that the whole point was what was good for the flock or the heard, not what made hunters happy. Everyone needs to realize that the quality of the hunt has nothing to do with killing a turkey, it is being out there with the hope of killing a turkey and enjoying the outdoors. Look at it from my stand point, I would have been happy with just hearing or seeing a bird this year. That experience would have been plenty, I got lucky and top off the experience. My hunting partner (1st time hunter) witnessed the hunt and he said he didn't care if we saw or killed anything else at all. He now is hooked on the outdoors and turkeys and never killed a bird, just witnessed how damn awesome it is to be near them. Try not to forget that. And I'm spent.
I agree we should consider whats best for the flock first, but it all comes back to hunter satisfaction. I'll be willing to bet that very few of the state NWTF supporters aren't turkey hunters, and they wouldn't be NWTF supporters if they didn't think that it's eventually gonna improve their hunting. I may be wrong, but personally if I thought I'd never kill another turkey or hear another turkey or work another turkey then I'd give up turkey hunting and take up bird watching. I hunt turkeys cause I like to hear them gobble at me, I like to watch em strut, I like to see them react to each other and I like to kill turkeys. Take away the killing turkeys part and it's no longer turkey hunting. Personally I'd be satisfied with a 3 week only spring season with a 1 bird limit if I thought it was gonna improve my hunting(although I'm not the least bit disapointed in it). What disapoints me is the lack of a nearby place to hunt, not the lack of turkeys. Also I could care less about a fall season, but some think we need it to keep hen numbers in check. I don't think we are to that point yet. I think turkeys are quite different than deer and until we have a significant number of hens not getting breed we don't need to be considering hen reduction. The places I hunted later in the season pretty much showed me that hens had been breed and gobblers were lonely. I know it's differnet in different parts of the state, I don't have an answer for that.
I'm against the 1pm close. The vast majority of hunters are gone by then anyway.

[INKYHUNTER]

It was a strange year even though I got my two tags filled. Few birds gobbling from the roost and what did quit once they hit the ground. Should have been plenty of two year olds as I saw alot of Jakes last spring. What was up where I hunt? First I think the birds broke up later, also their was a total mast failure on my place last fall and it caused birds to reposition somewhat. Toms were still henned up when I took my last bird on the 4th, however they gobbled better that day then any other I had hunted.
What was strange? Couldn't get a bird to work to a call. But it's called turkey hunting not calling. So on the 4th I made a 300 yard stalk the last 75 on my hands and knees and belly. It was fun even though I'm getting a little old for the low crawl stuff.
Based on the owl hooters I didn't notice a shortage of hunters in the area. I think the birds are around but not desperate to find a hen.
It's great fun to call birds in, however you can go birdless if you depend on calling alone in my area.

[lab]

But it galls me to hear about gobbler mortality figures in the spring, many times from hunters who after tagging out called in 5 or 6 for others who wouldn't otherwise called one in. Makes me a stick in the mudd? I reckon, but we ALL know of tagged out guy's who called in numerous birds for others. Purty good drain there. Just another facet to acknowledge.

What makes those of us who have called in birds for others any different that you taking people after you killed your first bird then waiting until the last week to kill your second one? I called in two birds for other people this year. One was my girlfriend and the other was one of my best friend's who had never killed a turkey before in his life. I am trying to show then what I know about the sport so that they can go out on their own and kill one without the aid of anyone else.

Now that is out of the way, I don't really see the extension of the season to be a huge asset. I personally don't see anything wrong with the structure of the season as it is now. The only thing that I might suggest would move the opener back a week. This would still give us three weeks, two birds, and all day hunts. As most of you know this year and years past the opening week has been less than desireable. I have seen more action within the last three or four days that would make me believe that we are missing out on some of the best times to harvest mature birds.

[skin_dog1]

What makes those of us who have called in birds for others any different that you taking people after you killed your first bird then waiting until the last week to kill your second one? I called in two birds for other people this year. One was my girlfriend and the other was one of my best friend's who had never killed a turkey before in his life. I am trying to show then what I know about the sport so that they can go out on their own and kill one without the aid of anyone else.

Now that is out of the way, I don't really see the extension of the season to be a huge asset. I personally don't see anything wrong with the structure of the season as it is now. The only thing that I might suggest would move the opener back a week. This would still give us three weeks, two birds, and all day hunts. As most of you know this year and years past the opening week has been less than desireable. I have seen more action within the last three or four days that would make me believe that we are missing out on some of the best times to harvest mature birds.
I agree 100%.

[B.G.O. of Kentucky]

I see this as two sides, first, I have called up birds for others before, and it was for a person who was just starting out. Now, he didn't kill the bird that time, but it did benefit his skills. I can also see where if he would have killed a bird that I called up, that it would be one bird more killed that wouldn't have been.

But, I don't think the number of birds killed like this would make a "huge" difference. Sure there will be several hundred birds killed that otherwise wouldn't have been, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it drastically effects it that much.

Plus, I liked seeing the excitement of my buddy when that bird closed in. Too bad he didn't get a shot.

[mossyhorns]

Here's what MO's blue ribbon panel (led by Larry Vangilder) reported on "liberal" seasons as they considered the impact of expanding MO's season from 14 to 21 days.

"By contrast, with an extremely liberal season, jakes make up a high proportion of the spring harvest (50%) and a high proportion of the adult gobblers are killed during the spring. . . . After a series of poor hatches, spring harvest will decline because few jakes are being recuited into the population and numbers of adults are already low. In addition, because few dominant adults occur in the population, jakes do more gobbling and breeding, and therefore, because jakes act like adults, they are more vunerable to spring harvest. Under a liberal season framework, hunters have a poorer hunting experience because on any given day the chances of even hearing a bird gobble is low. The chances of working an adult gobbler and killing him is even lower. Hunter success under a liberal season is also lower."

[grouseguy]

Honest question...I don't claim to be a turkey expert, I just enjoy hunting them, but some of these quoted figures don't seem to make sense.

I've heard repeatedly that we're killing 60% of the mature gobblers each year. Now my personal observations don't support this, but I live in a high turkey area (northeastern KY). I just checked the KDFWR website and they report 21,376 mature birds harvested this season (not including jakes or bearded hens) for that to be 60% would mean pre-season there were 35,626 mature gobblers in KY out of a total population of 250,000.

For you turkey experts, is that a normal population breakdown...35,626/250,000 or 14% of the overall turkey population are mature gobblers? That just seems too low of a percentage to me.

[mossyhorns]

According to Wright's radio collared study in W. KY, from 1995 thru 1998, the mean annual survival rate for adult males was only 26.2%. The average havest rate for adult males in the study was 62%.

Legal harvest took 59.9% of the toms killed during the study. 9% of the toms in the study were killed illegally. Nearly 3% disappeared under suspicious circumstances and were thought to be poached. 4.5% of toms killed were not checked in.

From 1995 to 1999, Wright monitored 366 male turkey in parts of Caldwell, Hopkins, and Christian counties. Survival rates for jakes was 55% and 26% for toms. Human caused mortality for jakes was 23% and 62% for toms. Natural mortality rates for jakes was 20% and 25% for toms. Here's a quote from the abstract of the study: "Population modeling suggests that if the spring turkey season in western KY is liberalized further (it is now 3 weeks of all-day hunting), then the quality of spring turkey hunting will decline." Proceeding of the National Wild Turkey Symposium, 8-187-194

[maxcam]

Yeah, I saw quite a few hens for this late in the season while in LBL. I mean, I have seen more, but not this late. I think weather definitely hurt this year, but I agree, 3 years running. I think only 1 out of the last 3 hatches weren't good, and it wasn't a bad hatch, but I might be mistaken. Seems we have good numbers of birds overall, no decline there. I know in one area where there used to be birds all over the place, you only hear a few gobbles now, so some areas might be seeing some poaching. But I dont' think poaching is the culprit either, cause traditionally Eastern KY has a high poach rate and DBNF had a ton of birds taken.

I really don't know, this is a heck of a question.

State birds getting tougher to hunt? I know compared to public hunting birds, they are much easier to hunt, but maybe they are slowly adapting and becoming more educated each generation where in a few years, you will be hunting tougher birds all round.

Deer back in the day never looked in the trees, now, they seem to almost look for us bowhunters, so who knows?


Actually the hatch has been poor 3 out of the last 4 years. Yet we continue to support regulations that sell out the resource to gain more opportunity.....Guys listen to mother nature.......Shes trying to tell you something.............

[grouseguy]

Thanks mossy. When I first heard that 60% figure, it just seemed high to me, but that's what's great about this site...there is a wealth of information out there, and usually one of the regulars here will have it easily accessible.

It appears like the stats came from a scientific survey from a trusted & proven source.

Thanks again.

[CSS archer]

Two things, one, fall hunting is not intended to "keep the hens in check" it is merely a hunting opportunity that will not negatively impact the population. Annual mortality is such that hunting in the fall will not be additive.

Two, Wright's study is in the heart of KY turkey country, more hunting pressure there than anywhere else in the state, and in my opinion the highest mortality rates because of that. Other parts of the state are a different animal, not as much pressure, unfriendly terrain, etc, there the mortality rates have to be much lower on adult gobs.

A poor reproduction year equals a tough hunting season two years later, period.

This has been the toughest season for me since my county has been open. I normally call in 30 or so longbeards and 15 or so jakes a season, and harvest my birds with archery. This year I only called in 5 longbeards only saw 4 jakes, and hunted harder than I ever have. And..... I resorted to killing my birds with a shotgun, just got tired of countless hours of not working a bird.

Did I lose my mojo?( my mind..yes) Did other hunters mess me up? Is it F&W fault for allowing the fall season? NO, I don't even think there was 2 or 3 birds killed in the fall in my county, and only 28 this spring. It was a poor reproductive year spring before last, period. That's why those 3 plus year old birds dont' play fair, they've been in the game before.

[maxcam]

Mossyhorns thanks for those last two posts......I was tooo worn out from huntin my ass off the last three days to dig up that info last nite. I think that Missouri is a model of how turkey should be managed for turkey. I also belive that the money spent my the KDFW on the mortality of mature gobblers in Kentucky fell on deaf ears.

Next year will make 6 years running the increase on opportunity for turkeys .......Maybe the drop in harvest is a glich on the numbers.......But what if its not?

And one other note.........Just because you hear 10 birds gobbling on the roost at daylight ......dont assume they are all mature (2 year old birds and up )
because a jake can and will gobble in his first spring. And according to the numbers there will only be 5 of them come next spring to hunt!

I am suggesting to many of you that alot of the henned up birds that you find not responding to you, after they breed the hens they are with, are in fact jakes that are affraid to cruise around looking for a receptive hen (or smart hunter). Jakes usually do not gobble once they fly down.

I found this to be the case where I hunt. Jakes would gobble 3 or 4 in a group and would be with a harem of hens......Fifteen or twenty minutes after the first gobble they would pitch down and that was it. Jakes will tolerate other jakes but late in the season a mature bird will chase any other male away from his hens till they go to nest.

As far as reports of lots of birds..... I dont argue we have alot of birds in KY. But they dont have that big ol paint brush and limb hangers. Look to the fields this fall when the crops are harvested and tell me how many Longbeards you count.........Ill be surprised if more that a few can tell me more than 20 percent.

[maxcam]

Two things, one, fall hunting is not intended to "keep the hens in check" it is merely a hunting opportunity that will not negatively impact the population. Annual mortality is such that hunting in the fall will not be additive.

Two, Wright's study is in the heart of KY turkey country, more hunting pressure there than anywhere else in the state, and in my opinion the highest mortality rates because of that. Other parts of the state are a different animal, not as much pressure, unfriendly terrain, etc, there the mortality rates have to be much lower on adult gobs.

A poor reproduction year equals a tough hunting season two years later, period.

This has been the toughest season for me since my county has been open. I normally call in 30 or so longbeards and 15 or so jakes a season, and harvest my birds with archery. This year I only called in 5 longbeards only saw 4 jakes, and hunted harder than I ever have. And..... I resorted to killing my birds with a shotgun, just got tired of countless hours of not working a bird.

Did I lose my mojo?( my mind..yes) Did other hunters mess me up? Is it F&W fault for allowing the fall season? NO, I don't even think there was 2 or 3 birds killed in the fall in my county, and only 28 this spring. It was a poor reproductive year spring before last, period. That's why those 3 plus year old birds dont' play fair, they've been in the game before.

Don't ever pretend to know more about George Wright's knowledge on the the wild turkey! Im sure he had a reason for picking central west Kentucky for the study. Unfortunately he isnt here to answer that question. You can however believe he had his reasons and they were solid ones....... NO ONE other than the Lord above has done more for the wild turkey in this state than he has. Further more do you have data that shows there are areas that are more heavily populated with turkey than central western Kentucky? Because if there were only 28 killed in your county then Im suggesting to you to come west young man.......The average harvest in the western counties of the state is 10 fold compared to those numbers.

[kycurhunter]

where i live we could kill 6-8 each and not hurt them. we NEED to smoke some of these damn hens.

i comp hunt sq dogs..these turkeys make it tough on the sq. they eat everything in the woods...i love to hunt em but they need thinned out!

[massive horns]

Move the season up 7 days and stop this silly 15th MAGIC date. Numbers will increase beyond you can imagine.

[grouseguy]

Don't ever pretend to know more about George Wright's knowledge on the the wild turkey! Im sure he had a reason for picking central west Kentucky for the study. Unfortunately he isnt here to answer that question. You can however believe he had his reasons and they were solid ones....... NO ONE other than the Lord above has done more for the wild turkey in this state than he has. Further more do you have data that shows there are areas that are more heavily populated with turkey than central western Kentucky? Because if there were only 28 killed in your county then Im suggesting to you to come west young man.......The average harvest in the western counties of the state is 10 fold compared to those numbers.

Maxcam,

I don't know you from adam, so this is not intended to provoke an argument, just relay my personal experience where I've learned to value the biologic opinion of CSS archer. On a subject that I know much more about than turkey hunting (grouse hunting), CSS archer and I entered a spirited debate a few years ago. I was convinced I was absolutely right, but CSS archer did me one better...he TOOK me and SHOWED me the evidence to prove my theory wrong. From that first meeting, we have become friends, and while we still don't agree on every subject, I've learned (the humbling hard way) not to question his knowledge of wildlife biology.

BTW, FWIW CSS archer is a Private Lands Biologist for the KDFWR that lives in Woodford County, which could explain why his county didn't kill many birds, since its primarily very expensive horse country.

CSS archer,

Are you implying that I may actually be right about my observations, that we may have a higher percentage of mature gobblers in my area due to our topography and lower turkey hunting pressure? If that's so, how do you explain me having to "eat" one of my tags?;) :D :eek:

[CPA Hunter]

Must have been tough, CSS had to go to a scatter gun.

I witnessed 4 longbeards bite the dust and 3 were well over 3 years old. Those older birds just don’t play. I still have an Indiana tag and I’ve had 7 jakes within range – SEVERAL times I’ve had the same group of 4 in on me about every time out there, but you can tell they are wising up to me. I’m about to bust em, cause they ran off the last longbeard coming in.

[maxcam]

Maxcam,

I don't know you from adam, so this is not intended to provoke an argument, just relay my personal experience where I've learned to value the biologic opinion of CSS archer. On a subject that I know much more about than turkey hunting (grouse hunting), CSS archer and I entered a spirited debate a few years ago. I was convinced I was absolutely right, but CSS archer did me one better...he TOOK me and SHOWED me the evidence to prove my theory wrong. From that first meeting, we have become friends, and while we still don't agree on every subject, I've learned (the humbling hard way) not to question his knowledge of wildlife biology.

BTW, FWIW CSS archer is a Private Lands Biologist for the KDFWR that lives in Woodford County, which could explain why his county didn't kill many birds, since its primarily very expensive horse country.
I aint no biologist im just a hunter!

CSS archer,

Are you implying that I may actually be right about my observations, that we may have a higher percentage of mature gobblers in my area due to our topography and lower turkey hunting pressure? If that's so, how do you explain me having to "eat" one of my tags?;) :D :eek:

I am happy for CSS and his employ. But I will stick by my belief that George Wright is was and will always be the leading authority on wild turkeys in Kentucky. Until someone steps to the plate and does more to preserve this particular resource then I will defend any opinion he may have. As far as Woodford County is concerned hey my point was simple, If you only killed 28 birds in the whole county when you personally called some 40-45 male birds in the year previous, tell me what you think the reasons are. But dont make it sound like that the resource is bountiful. There are some of us that are very deligent in the manner in which we hunt and I for one can assure you that there were not nearly the numbers of mature gobblers in the woods this year.........My own observances of strutting areas and birds that were harvested tell me there were very few gobblers over 2 years period.

[Feedman]

I think turkeys are quite different than deer and until we have a significant number of hens not getting breed we don't need to be considering hen reduction. The places I hunted later in the season pretty much showed me that hens had been breed and gobblers were lonely. I know it's differnet in different parts of the state, I don't have an answer for that.
I'm against the 1pm close. The vast majority of hunters are gone by then anyway.

Hen's only need to be bred once during the year to lay a fertile clutch of eggs. They start breeding, weather permitting late february to early march. Hen's will breed numerous times during the year. This is why the gobbler's don't want to leave the hen's. There is a small percentage of hen's that will not nest each year. These are the "witch's" that keep the gobbler's satisfied and not coming in to your calls.

[turk2di]

What makes those of us who have called in birds for others any different that you taking people after you killed your first bird then waiting until the last week to kill your second one? I called in two birds for other people this year. One was my girlfriend and the other was one of my best friend's who had never killed a turkey before in his life. I am trying to show then what I know about the sport so that they can go out on their own and kill one without the aid of anyone else.

Now that is out of the way, I don't really see the extension of the season to be a huge asset. I personally don't see anything wrong with the structure of the season as it is now. The only thing that I might suggest would move the opener back a week. This would still give us three weeks, two birds, and all day hunts. As most of you know this year and years past the opening week has been less than desireable. I have seen more action within the last three or four days that would make me believe that we are missing out on some of the best times to harvest mature birds.
Did i ever say it was wrong? In fact i stated that had done it myself. But i guearentee you it's way more than a few hundred as was mentioned!
Anyway, the 15th is used because George Wrights studies or intuition was that all hens that want to be bred are bred by that timeframe. I Would hate 2c it any earlier. I can remember when it came in April 21st or 22nd. Seems like it went just fine. Anybody know what Jim Lanes thoughts are on this? Whatever he say's should carry as much weight as anyone!

[turk2di]

I am happy for CSS and his employ. But I will stick by my belief that George Wright is was and will always be the leading authority on wild turkeys in Kentucky. Until someone steps to the plate and does more to preserve this particular resource then I will defend any opinion he may have. As far as Woodford County is concerned hey my point was simple, If you only killed 28 birds in the whole county when you personally called some 40-45 male birds in the year previous, tell me what you think the reasons are. But dont make it sound like that the resource is bountiful. There are some of us that are very deligent in the manner in which we hunt and I for one can assure you that there were not nearly the numbers of mature gobblers in the woods this year.........My own observances of strutting areas and birds that were harvested tell me there were very few gobblers over 2 years period.
Here.....here!!!!!;)

[CSS archer]

I have discussed the mortality study with George in regards to eastern KY being different than western. They are not the same.

George will never be exceeded in his passion and expertise in turkey management. Again just my opinion.

Bottom line is there are plenty of longbeards where I hunt, they just weren't 2 year old birds. The older gobblers learn that hens will come to them, the ones that do not, get killed.

I learned to turkey hunt a LBL. That is what much of the state experienced this season (like hunting pressured birds) , fewer 2 year old birds, more tag soup. Many older birds got killed this year simply by being in the right place at the right time.

Grouseguy, we do agree on that. You must have hunted with "Murphy" as I did this season.

[Willie]

Spring is going down and the Fall and total birds is going up

YEAR……………………SPRING……………FALL………TOTAL

2000……………………18,243………………1,593………19,836

2001……………………23,197……………….2,521………25,718

2002……………………28,292……………….2,355………30,647

2003……………………27,550……………….2,805……….30,355

2004……………………26,405……………….6,589…..……32,994

2005 (Incomplete).25,703………………….?…………….?

[creekdawgg]

If you were to move the season to start on around april 7th There would be a record alright, A record low. Push it back to start around the 24th or even may 1, then there would be a tremdous increase in harvest.



Move the season up 7 days and stop this silly 15th MAGIC date. Numbers will increase beyond you can imagine.

[twofeathers]

If we want to improve quality of the hunt, why don't we do the following:

1. Fall Season---------- Hens only

This is the 1 part I agree with.
We have got to start thinking QTM here guys !!

One thing that a very wise man who is no longer with (thought of him often in the woods this spring) told me a couple of years ago was "gonna have to start takeing them hens during the fall season".

I may step on some toes with this, but; This fall I will put nothing but hens in the bead and the pin (crossbow and compound).

[creekdawgg]

One of the main reason's alot of people arent seeig or hearing the birds like they used to. IMO Some of you turkey hunters need to get a lesson in calling them, I'm no expert and could use a few tips but I know I have heard some hens(hunters) doing some yelping of some sort that made me wanna get up and pull out a mega-horn and say WTF are you doing?

[SUPERDUCK]

Any year you have a good hatch,The preceding spring you will have a lot of jakes and jennys. The jenneys normally do not nest[just go around laying eggs everyware] These are the hens you see most of the time in late season. I am one who beleves the chicken comes before the egg;when the egg hatches approx half are potental long beards. I for one do not agree with shooting hens unless the carring capacity has been reached. My two cents!

[maxcam]

Uh superduck we didnt have a good hatch last year! Whats your point?

[Gobblergetter2.1]

Ive heard from many hunting shows and people that hen to gobbler ratio is not important. I'm not too sure about this, but i know that i manage the does. Would hens actually be the same way though???

[skin_dog1]

This is the 1 part I agree with.
We have got to start thinking QTM here guys !!

One thing that a very wise man who is no longer with (thought of him often in the woods this spring) told me a couple of years ago was "gonna have to start takeing them hens during the fall season".

I may step on some toes with this, but; This fall I will put nothing but hens in the bead and the pin (crossbow and compound).
I'm no turkey biologist, but I think this is the wrong attitude to have towards turkeys. Birds are different than deer. I agree that it doesn't hurt to harvest some hens in the fall, but our population is not ready for hen reduction. Thinking that you are gonna improve your spring hunting by eradicating hens is a bad idea. Yeah let us kill 15,000 hens this fall and next spring there will be a record harvest of toms. What do you think the next few seasons are gonna be like? I'll tell you, they will suck!

[skin_dog1]

Uh superduck we didnt have a good hatch last year! Whats your point?
I think his point is he's disagreeing with two feathers. I agree with superduck, although I believe he meant the following year and not the preceeding year.

[SUPERDUCK]

Mex. My point is there will always be some jennys around[hopefully more than less] They make up most of what hens are seen late in the season along with unsucessful nesting hens, I for one am not for shooting hens so gobblers will be less henned up as some have refered to.

[SUPERDUCK]

sorry about peceding year;ment to say following[ITS GETTING LATE]:)

[maxcam]

Mex. My point is there will always be some jennys around[hopefully more than less] They make up most of what hens are seen late in the season along with unsucessful nesting hens, I for one am not for shooting hens so gobblers will be less henned up as some have refered to.

The problem isnt toooo many hens. The problem is not enough Toms. Look at the numbers of birds harvested for the last 6 years. Since the season was expanded in 2001 there has been a steady decline in the number of Toms harvested in the state. The question posed in this thread is why? Its not because we are taking too many hens.

[ril7572]

Uh superduck we didnt have a good hatch last year! Whats your point?

Most areas had a great hatch in 2004, I know I saw more jakes during the season than I have in 30 years of hunting.

State wide harvest for 2005 was 25,703 birds on private ground, plus 1,770 on WMAs. for a total of 27,473. So the harvest for this year was up from 2004.

The internet conspiracy theories never cease to amaze me. Sorry to disappoint some of you, but Kentuckys turkey hunting is alive and well. To suggest otherwise is just silly.

[creekdawgg]

Agreed 1,068 more birds taken this year. I dont see a decline either.

[SUPERDUCK]

The problem isnt toooo many hens. The problem is not enough Toms. Look at the numbers of birds harvested for the last 6 years. Since the season was expanded in 2001 there has been a steady decline in the number of Toms harvested in the state. The question posed in this thread is why? Its not because we are taking too many hens.Mex I agree! My point was we cant get the gobblers back with out hens. If you will look at a previus post to this thread I have already stated we have oversold our gobblers!

[SUPERDUCK]

Most areas had a great hatch in 2004, I know I saw more jakes during the season than I have in 30 years of hunting.

State wide harvest for 2005 was 25,703 birds on private ground, plus 1,770 on WMAs. for a total of 27,473. So the harvest for this year was up from 2004.

The internet conspiracy theories never cease to amaze me. Sorry to disappoint some of you, but Kentuckys turkey hunting is alive and well. To suggest otherwise is just silly.Harvest was up slightly; 70,000 turkey hunters in 2004;90,000 in 2005. 27,473 spring harvest 2005. Hunter success down[you do the math so we can get rid of the conspiracy theories]=oversold.

[maxcam]

Ok this is an attempt to clearify the numbers as posted by the KDFW.

Total turkeys harvested STATEWIDE:

2002 28,120
2003 27,381
2004 26,224
2005 25,517

The average number harvested for the years listed above is 26,810.
Over the same period the number of birds harvested in the spring has decreased by 10%. There was a decrease of 2.7 percent from 2004 results to this year 2005.
If you want to argue the numbers for wma birds then you have to be consistent and argue they were either in this total for all years or none. Since these numbers are posted on the web site by the KDFW I will assume they are an indication of total birds harvested in all counties, as that is how they are listed on their website. Either way it doesnt matter. You can find a caluculator in your programs list under the accessories in your program files to help you with the math.

Now explain your conspiracy to me please!

[maxcam]

http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/harvest/turkeyharvest.asp


NOW TELL ME HOW YOU COME UP WITH OVER 27000 birds harvested this spring!

[maxcam]

If you factor in the fact that there were approximately 20,000 more hunters added into the equation you could argue that the success rate sagged even more than the 2.7% from 2004 to 2005. In 2004 70,000 hunters took .37 birds each while in 2005 each hunter took only .28 birds each. The great thing about numbers is they dont lie.

In summary an increase of 23 percent more opportunity resulted in a net loss of about 1 in 10 hunters not killing a bird.

[creekdawgg]

First if you look at the top of the page you posted you would see a TOTAL tab now look at the bottom and you will see 25,703 in the total

http://fw.ky.gov/turkeypubliclandresults.aspx?lid=1074&NavPath=C151C161C380
Now go here and look at the WMA birds as there totals are posted sperate, you will see 1,770
If you add the 2 numbers together you will get 27,473 So what part dont you get?

[SUPERDUCK]

First if you look at the top of the page you posted you would see a TOTAL tab now look at the bottom and you will see 25,703 in the total

http://fw.ky.gov/turkeypubliclandresults.aspx?lid=1074&NavPath=C151C161C380
Now go here and look at the WMA birds as there totals are posted sperate, you will see 1,770
If you add the 2 numbers together you will get 27,473 So what part dont you get?Are they added or alredy in the county totals. You still have to give a county code on teli-check? Or are the pulling them out of the total to let people see the numbers killed on the WMA's?

[maxcam]

First if you look at the top of the page you posted you would see a TOTAL tab now look at the bottom and you will see 25,703 in the total

http://fw.ky.gov/turkeypubliclandresults.aspx?lid=1074&NavPath=C151C161C380
Now go here and look at the WMA birds as there totals are posted sperate, you will see 1,770
If you add the 2 numbers together you will get 27,473 So what part dont you get?


I get all aspects of it actually. Where does it say the total number statewide exclude wma birds? If you assume there are 1770 more birds added to the 2005 total as listed at http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/harvest/turkeyharvest.asp then you also have to assume they were excluded from the totals I listed for 2002 through 2005. As I stated in my earlier post you cant claim wma totals this year and exclude them from the previous years totals. If you want to say that the averages on wma's is consistent with the state harvest numbers based on percentage Ill concede that arguement. All things being equal it wont matter to the percentages I pointed out.

That makes people think you are conspiring to mislead them.

[creekdawgg]

It Doesnt offically say that the WMA birds are in this total or are out of this total. If you look at the wma public land page and look at the muzzeloader harvest's from daniel boone nat forest it says 8 killed

Then go look at all counties in the harvest results you wont find any county that has 8 muzzeloader kills, so either the data is flawed or it is listed seprate because it is.

Im hear what you are saying though. Im not sure if the prior to 2004 wma birds are in the totals as well but one would think that they are. Not sure why they are spreated this year, maybe to give everyone an idea on how public land is being affected by the harvest. I dont think they would exclude the wma birds from all those years.

[skin_dog1]

It Doesnt offically say that the WMA birds are in this total or are out of this total. If you look at the wma public land page and look at the muzzeloader harvest's from daniel boone nat forest it says 8 killed

Then go look at all counties in the harvest results you wont find any county that has 8 muzzeloader kills, so either the data is flawed or it is listed seprate because it is.I can't imagine the data would be flawed;) !

[maxcam]

With a 23 percent increase in the number of hunters you would have to think you would see an increase of about 5000 birds if you went strictly by the numbers.....Even I cannot state the success rate would be that high due to first time hunters and then added pressures on land resources bringing the statewide bird to hunter average down. But I think you could safely say we should have seen an increase of say 3000 to 3500 birds. What do you think of that estimate.......If the statewide average is about about 1 in 3 taking a bird
then the added new 20000 hunters should be an addition 1 in 5 and im saying to be safe lets figure about 1 in 6..........

[creekdawgg]

Where's the numbers posted for how many hunters out there? What new 20,000 hunters

[maxcam]

Harvest was up slightly; 70,000 turkey hunters in 2004;90,000 in 2005. 27,473 spring harvest 2005. Hunter success down[you do the math so we can get rid of the conspiracy theories]=oversold.

there have been several other posts with this number

[Mount-N-Man]

So many hens the gobblers won't come to you. There isn't a lack of toms, I saw at least one mature tom every time out this year. TOO MANY HENS.

[turk2di]

The dept told us all that due to a lack of 2 yr olds this spring, it would be tuffer. Turned out that way, so whats the fuss? Your gonna have up years & down years! Fact is Ky has come purty close to settling into the harvest range we will see most years! Condsidering the preseaon prediction, we come dang close;)

[uplandchessies]

Kentucky has no lack of turkeys. Just spend some time in the field during the fall and you'll see we are polluted with the big birds. I've had my flushing dogs point, track and scatter turkeys more times than I care to remember. In fact, I don't even scout for turkeys during the spring, because of this.

It's funny that the first thing hunters do for lack of success is to blame game populations. Give me a break! Just look at the "Ok, who missed" thread. The birds are out there, and harvest records WILL NOT be set every season.

[CSS archer]

And.... the next time there is a record harvest it will only be a result of KDFWR making the numbers what they want.....conspiracy. SOS at the end of deer or turkey season every year.

I had a tough year, bowhunted the first two weeks then killed my bird with a gun the last week. I wish the season was a week later.

I had to adapt because of the circumstances, I'm just so thankful I don't have to drive to LBL to hunt, like I did 15 years ago.

I heard plenty of birds, but more of them worked me than I worked.

A 1 bird limit would put more 2 year olds out there each year, fewer jakes would be killed. Quality is in the eye of the beholder. Most people would not prefer to go back to 1 bird in the spring.

[maxcam]

And.... the next time there is a record harvest it will only be a result of KDFWR making the numbers what they want.....conspiracy. SOS at the end of deer or turkey season every year.

I had a tough year, bowhunted the first two weeks then killed my bird with a gun the last week. I wish the season was a week later.

I had to adapt because of the circumstances, I'm just so thankful I don't have to drive to LBL to hunt, like I did 15 years ago.

I heard plenty of birds, but more of them worked me than I worked.

A 1 bird limit would put more 2 year olds out there each year, fewer jakes would be killed. Quality is in the eye of the beholder. Most people would not prefer to go back to 1 bird in the spring.

CSS

As a biologist what is your opinion on the revolving policy on turkeys by the KDFW? Do you have concerns on how many changes and increases in opportunity have taken place over the last several years? Im curious as to how we can truly know what the effects are going to be. Can you enlighten me on how long you think it will take for us to truly understand the impact a reg change has on the resource?

Holy cow can you imagine what LBL is going to be like next year with the Saturday opener for turkey..........Glad im not going to be there!

[CSS archer]

With the population of birds we have in most counties, the minimal changes to increase opportunity will have little effect on bird numbers. Any time you increase the number of people in the woods it educates birds and makes for a tougher season.

The crossbow issue is not valid in my opinion, fall harvest simply isn't additive mortality. Most people will not be chasing turekys with a crossbow, just an extra while deer hunting. Even though you don't have to draw a crossbow, you still have to aim it, how hard is it to move a gun on a bird? Now in treestand you are where turkeys are accustomed to watching for danger.

If a regulation change did have drastic impact, say 90% of gobblers killed, there is still going to be 50% of the poult crop that are males and in very little time a mistake can be corrected. It's not like starting over with no turkeys.

I truly liked the 15th opener, different days different years, Saturday will definitely decrease the quality of public land hunting, do the turkeys care?

[turk2di]

CSS

As a biologist what is your opinion on the revolving policy on turkeys by the KDFW? Do you have concerns on how many changes and increases in opportunity have taken place over the last several years? Im curious as to how we can truly know what the effects are going to be. Can you enlighten me on how long you think it will take for us to truly understand the impact a reg change has on the resource?

Holy cow can you imagine what LBL is going to be like next year with the Saturday opener for turkey..........Glad im not going to be there!
Probally be a quota hunt anyway. Wuz this year. I typed this in another thread or forum, so i'll type it here and CSS can expound upon it if he chooses.
We were told by state officials that there will be a reduced class of 2 yr olds this spring. By that opinion, one could expect less gobblin and therefore, tuffer hunting. Sound Familiar? Didn't we all live it? I'd say it came to pass. HOWEVER, we STILL came within 2500 birds of the record harvest with a reduced gobblin& responding class birds, toss in supressive weather after the first 7 days and i'd say we done purty darn good! We can look for excuses every year fellas. It was a late spring, with less than conducive for harvest weather for 2/3 's of the season battling older birds. DAH!

[skin_dog1]

CSS, I was only being sarcastic when I mentioned conspiracy theory. I don't believe the dept is screwing with numbers for deer or turkey season(although many on here do). I do think their flock and herd numbers are not very accurate in many parts of the state, but I don't think they are screwing with harvest data. The only ones doing that are the hunters not calling in their harvest.

[WBBP]

Been busy for the last week and haven't been on here any.

1) The gobbler population is fine. The harvest is always going to vary from year to year a few percentage points and may even trend downward a few years in a row before it goes back up. The biggest factor determining how many gobblers we have every spring is mother nature, not hunters. So many variables are in the population formula. I trust the F and W to manage the turkey program........they have done a superb job so far. If they need to shorten the season or reduce the gobblers to one in the spring, I would support them, but IMO, no changes are necessary at this time.

2) As far as tagged out hunters taking other hunters to the woods and calling in birds for them. I say more power to them. Hunting turkeys like that is very is very educational and sure is a heap of fun. The fun factor gets lost in a lot of things we do, but teaming up with our hunting buds is something we cherish for life.

[creekdawgg]

I disagree with you. If we kill more turkeys in the fall that has to affect our spring production. Doesnt it? Sure mother nature plays a part but I think the hunters play an equal part or maybe a slightly larger role or there wouldnt be any regs in place.



Been busy for the last week and haven't been on here any.

1) The gobbler population is fine. The harvest is always going to vary from year to year a few percentage points and may even trend downward a few years in a row before it goes back up. The biggest factor determining how many gobblers we have every spring is mother nature, not hunters. So many variables are in the population formula. I trust the F and W to manage the turkey program........they have done a superb job so far. If they need to shorten the season or reduce the gobblers to one in the spring, I would support them, but IMO, no changes are necessary at this time.

2) As far as tagged out hunters taking other hunters to the woods and calling in birds for them. I say more power to them. Hunting turkeys like that is very is very educational and sure is a heap of fun. The fun factor gets lost in a lot of things we do, but teaming up with out hunting buds is something we cherish for life.

[skin_dog1]

As far as tagged out hunters taking other hunters to the woods and calling in birds for them. I say more power to them. Hunting turkeys like that is very is very educational and sure is a heap of fun. The fun factor gets lost in a lot of things we do, but teaming up with out hunting buds is something we cherish for life.
Awesome statement! Without beng able to do that, turkey hunting would sometimes get boring. When I'm by myself and don't hear any gobbles or see any birds I get bored, if I'm with a buddy and we can BS, joke around, tell stories, or lies then the hunt is always enjoyable.

[WBBP]

Creek: Look at the total population of birds and then look at the mortality rate over the winter, plus add in bad weather during the spring hatch.

BTW, I am interested in the proposal you gave me earlier. I just need to know details. PM me your number please.

K

[creekdawgg]

Where can one find those stats?

I always thought that the KYFW went off harvest numbers to determine the harvest totals for the next year.

I sent you a pm, Might be another month before I get all the details worked out and in the feild for a trail run.


Creek: Look at the total population of birds and then look at the mortality rate over the winter, plus add in bad weather during the spring hatch.

BTW, I am interested in the proposal you gave me earlier. I just need to know details. PM me your number please.

K

[uplandchessies]

Right you are WBBP! And remember, state F&W Departments set limits and regulations based on many factors (predation, mortality, poaching etc.). If it wasn't for these factors, spring turkey limits could very well be 3, 4 or more birds. Same applies for all game across this country. I trust what they implement!

[turk2di]

Awesome statement! Without beng able to do that, turkey hunting would sometimes get boring. When I'm by myself and don't hear any gobbles or see any birds I get bored, if I'm with a buddy and we can BS, joke around, tell stories, or lies then the hunt is always enjoyable.
Oky doky! But to all who called in 3..4..5..6+ birds for others, Don't blame the fall season;)

[skin_dog1]

I'm not blaming the current fall season for anything. I do however believe that the current limit of 4 fall birds has the potential to harm the overall population when the crossbows start getting real popular. 4 1/2 months to happen upon 4 turks is a long time! Hopefully after the next few years with ever rising fall harvest it will be looked at. Like someone else said, the flock will recover quickly, but I'd rather not see it have to recover. This year will not see a great increase in fall birds, but like ohio, slowly xbows will take over archery here. when they do they will be killing alot of turkeys under the current regs.

[Willie]

In Ohio it took 25 years for the crossbowers to edge ahead of vertcial bowhunters.

It is a proven fact that crossbower kill percentages are identical to the vertical bowhunters.

So, let’s use that hypothesis to determine how the crossbows will affect the fall turkey stats.

The KY bowhunters kill about 900 birds in the fall. Since the crossbow and vertical bow kill percentages are the same some would say that the crossbowers would kill 900 too.

Not true.

The kill percentages are the same but the number of hunters would vary greatly.

There has been estimated to be 100,000 bowhunters in KY. That gives the bowhunters a fall turkey kill percentage to be about .9 %

Georgia has approximately the same amount of bowhunters that KY has. In Georgia there were 12,000 new archers added the first year that the crossbow was legalized. 9,000 of them started by using crossbows. 3,000 of them started by using a vertical bow. In most cases a compound bow. That vertical bowhunter increase was the first in many years. Is not recruitment into bowhunting desirable?

IF KY realized 9,000 new crossbowers the first year (a very ambitious number) then the extra turkey kill would be in the neighborhood of 81 more birds killed using the KY vertical bowhunter fall turkey kill percentages.

Factor that some of those new crossbowers would come from the bowhunter ranks where that number would drop you’ve almost got a push in the number of birds harvested.

Much ado about nothing…

[KYhunter]

Willie- I fear you are mistaken. Harvesting a turkey with a crossbow is much easier than with a vertical bow, due to movement needed with the vertical bow. With the crossbow, virtually no movement is needed, so therefore your % are incorrect.

[Willie]

Willie- I fear you are mistaken. Harvesting a turkey with a crossbow is much easier than with a vertical bow, due to movement needed with the vertical bow. With the crossbow, virtually no movement is needed, so therefore your % are incorrect.

How many turkeys have you raised a crossbow to shoot?

I do believe that since most archery turkeys in the fall are taken incidental to bowhunting deer there would not be a whole lot of differential in percentages.

I've had turkeys pick me out in a treestand and I didn't bat an eye, much less raise my crossbow up to shoot.

If I am going to shoot a turkey out of a treestand with ANY archery equipment I am going to wait until his head is behind a tree.

Again - there will not be a huge sudden influx of crossbowers. Georgia had 9,000 the first year.

[maxcam]

Probally be a quota hunt anyway. Wuz this year. I typed this in another thread or forum, so i'll type it here and CSS can expound upon it if he chooses.
We were told by state officials that there will be a reduced class of 2 yr olds this spring. By that opinion, one could expect less gobblin and therefore, tuffer hunting. Sound Familiar? Didn't we all live it? I'd say it came to pass. HOWEVER, we STILL came within 2500 birds of the record harvest with a reduced gobblin& responding class birds, toss in supressive weather after the first 7 days and i'd say we done purty darn good! We can look for excuses every year fellas. It was a late spring, with less than conducive for harvest weather for 2/3 's of the season battling older birds. DAH!


Look at my earlier post turk.......We have dropped 10 percent in harvest over that last 4 years............How can you argue that it is just one bad year....?
You can argue why or what the reason is but you cannot argue the fact that 2002 to 2005 we have lost 10 percent in harvest............And according to the KDFW at least one of those years we did have a good harvest...............

[KYhunter]

Willie- never raised a crossbow, but have never had a bird spot me with a gun. If hunting with a crossbow for birds, I would be on the ground. We will never really know how many crossbowyers Ky will have, as we have no reliable way to count them. Guess we will have to wait and see come fall and keep an eye of the tele-check numbers. If you are correct in only an 81 bird increase, then I will gladly salute you. As they say, "Time will tell."

[turk2di]

Look at my earlier post turk.......We have dropped 10 percent in harvest over that last 4 years............How can you argue that it is just one bad year....?
You can argue why or what the reason is but you cannot argue the fact that 2002 to 2005 we have lost 10 percent in harvest............And according to the KDFW at least one of those years we did have a good harvest...............
I didn't say it was just one bad year. Who says 25,5 is a bad year? When u figure the beloe average hatch of 03, plus the cool and some rain the 2nd half of the season, there ya are! Plus i believe a larger than expected bunch of hunters quit by halfway thru. So what do u want the state to do?

[maxcam]

I didn't say it was just one bad year. Who says 25,5 is a bad year? When u figure the beloe average hatch of 03, plus the cool and some rain the 2nd half of the season, there ya are! Plus i believe a larger than expected bunch of hunters quit by halfway thru. So what do u want the state to do?

I would say a four year decline in the number of long beards during the spring is a trend...........

As far as the state doing anything .....I want them to do what they are there for........Properly manage the resource..........Not increase opportunity year in and year out..........

[turk2di]

I would say a four year decline in the number of long beards during the spring is a trend...........

As far as the state doing anything .....I want them to do what they are there for........Properly manage the resource..........Not increase opportunity year in and year out..........
I believe me and you r suscribe to the same philosphy.....George Wright! Correct me if im wrong. As such, im as protective of the resourse and anyone, including you! With what appears 2b a great hatch 04, im gonna wait for next years numbers and see. Again, with the 04 hatch, should next season show a decline AFTER 3 WEEKS, then im quite sure there will be some jostling of the schedule. Im sure there will be an outcry with some figures to bank on, and i'll be cryin the loudest;)
Im figurin, and again correct me if im wrong, that by your statement that of properly managing the resource, you mean to cull back or cancel out fall firearm season.? If it comes to pass that is a necessary, i'll lay down my weapon;)

[buckfever]

In Ohio it took 25 years for the crossbowers to edge ahead of vertcial bowhunters.

It is a proven fact that crossbower kill percentages are identical to the vertical bowhunters.

So, let’s use that hypothesis to determine how the crossbows will affect the fall turkey stats.

The KY bowhunters kill about 900 birds in the fall. Since the crossbow and vertical bow kill percentages are the same some would say that the crossbowers would kill 900 too.

Not true.

The kill percentages are the same but the number of hunters would vary greatly.

There has been estimated to be 100,000 bowhunters in KY. That gives the bowhunters a fall turkey kill percentage to be about .9 %

Georgia has approximately the same amount of bowhunters that KY has. In Georgia there were 12,000 new archers added the first year that the crossbow was legalized. 9,000 of them started by using crossbows. 3,000 of them started by using a vertical bow. In most cases a compound bow. That vertical bowhunter increase was the first in many years. Is not recruitment into bowhunting desirable?

IF KY realized 9,000 new crossbowers the first year (a very ambitious number) then the extra turkey kill would be in the neighborhood of 81 more birds killed using the KY vertical bowhunter fall turkey kill percentages.

Factor that some of those new crossbowers would come from the bowhunter ranks where that number would drop you’ve almost got a push in the number of birds harvested.

Much ado about nothing…


"It is a proven fact that crossbower kill percentages are identical to the vertical bowhunters."

This is extremely misleading. (1) It fails to record how many hours/days afield spent by each group. If the average vertical archer spends 32 days afield and harvests 1.2 deer and that the average xbowers spends 12 days afield and harvests 1.2 deer, which group shoots a better percentage? Even though the typical hunter using those weapons harvests exactly the same number of deer, which is wielding the more lethal weapon? (2) I'll bet that the "kill percentages" you reference apply only to deer. I haven't seen any studies showing that vertical archery is as effective at harvesting a turkey as a crossbow.

"In Georgia there were 12,000 new archers added the first year that the crossbow was legalized. 9,000 of them started by using crossbows. 3,000 of them started by using a vertical bow. In most cases a compound bow. That vertical bowhunter increase was the first in many years. Is not recruitment into bowhunting desirable?"

It is absolutely nonsensical to argue that an expanded crossbow season will add any new vertical archers into the field.

[GSP]

Ok guys, stop the x-bow BS now. I think I can honestly say that x-bows had little effect on this Spring season.


I think this spring would have been a banner year in my area, but turned south due to the rain. Youth weekend was rain/cold. Opening weekend was rain. The last weekend we had 3.5 inches of rain the Friday night and Saturday morning. Turkey's are pretty safe when the creek you usually jump across is 3/4 mile wide!:eek:

[Willie]

Ok guys, stop the x-bow BS now. I think I can honestly say that x-bows had little effect on this Spring season.



..and they wont in the fall either.

[creekdawgg]

So it's ok for you to say stop the crossbow BS and then throw in your 2 cents. Thats a good way censoring things:rolleyes:



Ok guys, stop the x-bow BS now. I think I can honestly say that x-bows had little effect on this Spring season.


I think this spring would have been a banner year in my area, but turned south due to the rain. Youth weekend was rain/cold. Opening weekend was rain. The last weekend we had 3.5 inches of rain the Friday night and Saturday morning. Turkey's are pretty safe when the creek you usually jump across is 3/4 mile wide!:eek:

[mossyhorns]

Spring is going down and the Fall and total birds is going up

YEAR……………………SPRING……………FALL………TOTAL

2000……………………18,243………………1,593………19,836

2001……………………23,197……………….2,521………25,718

2002……………………28,292……………….2,355………30,647

2003……………………27,550……………….2,805……….30,355

2004……………………26,405……………….6,589…..……32,994

2005 (Incomplete).25,703………………….?…………….?

This table kinda looks like the fall harvest is additive rather than compensatory.

[maxcam]

Originally Posted by Willie
Spring is going down and the Fall and total birds is going up

YEAR……………………SPRING……………FALL………TOTAL

2000……………………18,243………………1,593………19,836

2001……………………23,197……………….2,521………25,718

2002……………………28,292……………….2,355………30,647

2003……………………27,550……………….2,805……….30,355

2004……………………26,405……………….6,589…..……32,994

2005 (Incomplete).25,703………………….?…………….?




Do these numbers include all birds harvested in the fall or just gobblers.......?

Because I thought we were talking about Toms not turkey in general.......SO actually mossyhorn i believe this would be considered SUBJECTIVE and ARGUEMENTATIVE.................

[twofeathers]

I'm not blaming the current fall season for anything. I do however believe that the current limit of 4 fall birds has the potential to harm the overall population when the crossbows start getting real popular. 4 1/2 months to happen upon 4 turks is a long time! Hopefully after the next few years with ever rising fall harvest it will be looked at. Like someone else said, the flock will recover quickly, but I'd rather not see it have to recover. This year will not see a great increase in fall birds, but like ohio, slowly xbows will take over archery here. when they do they will be killing alot of turkeys under the current regs.



>>> I do however believe that the current limit of 4 fall birds has the potential to harm the overall population when the crossbows start getting real popular.<<<

>>>4 1/2 months to happen upon 4 turks is a long time! <<<

Can only take 2 birds in that 4 1/2 month period with archery gear !!


Until the fall turkey hunter / kill total gets out of portin to the total state bird total and the total spring / fall harvest that the F&W wants, then the fall kill is only takeing birds that may not even make it thru the winter,,,, IMO.

How many people actualy go out in the fall just turkey hunting? ME:D

My guess, a few for the weekend of gun season but not many. Seen 2 groups of 2 guys and 1 single turkey hunter all of last fall.

Very few with archery gear.

With most if not almost all the archery kills made by people who are actualy deer hunting and just happen to get a shot at a turkey then they are not just turkey hunting. Never seen anyone that said they where just turkey hunting with a bow last year.

But only being able to take 2 birds with archery (vertical or crossbow) I don't think archers will add to the total that much more just because crossbows can be used.

I only bow hunt for deer in the fall but there are several days I go afield just to turkey hunt with the bow. I will bust the flocks and sit down and start calling them back together. Last year I only got 1 bird with the bow (don't ask how many I missed).

Can ya tell that I love my fall turkey hunting just as much as the spring. If you have never been behind a good trained turkey dog that will bust a fall flock and then come lay quietly beside you as you call them back together, you don't know what your missing !!

If I could only hunt 1 tukey season, IT would be the fall season. But that is what makes us indiviuals.

[skin_dog1]

If you have never been behind a good trained turkey dog that will bust a fall flock and then come lay quietly beside you as you call them back together, you don't know what your missing !!I'm open for an invitation this fall!;) I went out for turkeys 1 day this fall and I killed one. I don't enjoy fall hunting cause there is no gobbling involved, throw in some good dog work and it may be different! I don't want to see an end to the fall season, but I think 4 birds in the fall (including gun) is too liberal. I hope that WHEN xbows gain the attraction that they have in Ohio that something is done so we don't harm the resource. Good luck this fall and let me know if you need someone to tag along. Hell I'd just like get some of that on video.

[turk2di]

>>> I do however believe that the current limit of 4 fall birds has the potential to harm the overall population when the crossbows start getting real popular.<<<

>>>4 1/2 months to happen upon 4 turks is a long time! <<<

Can only take 2 birds in that 4 1/2 month period with archery gear !!


Until the fall turkey hunter / kill total gets out of portin to the total state bird total and the total spring / fall harvest that the F&W wants, then the fall kill is only takeing birds that may not even make it thru the winter,,,, IMO.

How many people actualy go out in the fall just turkey hunting? ME:D

My guess, a few for the weekend of gun season but not many. Seen 2 groups of 2 guys and 1 single turkey hunter all of last fall.

Very few with archery gear.

With most if not almost all the archery kills made by people who are actualy deer hunting and just happen to get a shot at a turkey then they are not just turkey hunting. Never seen anyone that said they where just turkey hunting with a bow last year.

But only being able to take 2 birds with archery (vertical or crossbow) I don't think archers will add to the total that much more just because crossbows can be used.

I only bow hunt for deer in the fall but there are several days I go afield just to turkey hunt with the bow. I will bust the flocks and sit down and start calling them back together. Last year I only got 1 bird with the bow (don't ask how many I missed).

Can ya tell that I love my fall turkey hunting just as much as the spring. If you have never been behind a good trained turkey dog that will bust a fall flock and then come lay quietly beside you as you call them back together, you don't know what your missing !!

If I could only hunt 1 tukey season, IT would be the fall season. But that is what makes us indiviuals.
I like you;) People think im nuts when i tell them
i like fall nearly as much as spring. What's not to like?
1.more birds
2.all r legal.
3. no hunters in prime hunting area's

[lab]

With all of the talking and arguing in this post, has anyone ever posted what the department considers a good harvest year? I have yet to see a number that shows what the department would like to see us (as hunters) take in a year's time. I am sure that they have a magical number that they feel would help keep the flocks healthy.

[Valley Station]

Lab-lover,
Very difficult for the average John Doe turkey hunter to interpret. Way over our head.They list successful season in "tourist dollars generated".

[lab]

Lab-lover,
Very difficult for the average John Doe turkey hunter to interpret. Way over our head.

Why is that? They have such numbers for deer. Why not turkeys?

[buckfever]

I agree with Skin-Dog's post. If anything happens with the Fall season, I'd rather it be that hunters can only harvest 2 birds (regardless of weapon choice) in the fall, with only 1 tom.

[twofeathers]

I like you;) People think im nuts when i tell them
i like fall nearly as much as spring. What's not to like?
1.more birds
2.all r legal.
3. no hunters in prime hunting area's

AGREEDED


>>> skin_dog1 ,
I don't enjoy fall hunting cause there is no gobbling involved, <<<

After being skunked for the first time in 6 years in KY and only haveing 4 gobblers gobble other than at LBL (and that is another issue) at least in the fall you get to hear many different sounds of the wild turkey. I have even had mature toms gobble after a flock break up.

Working a flock back in and hearing the ole hen yelping her head off, whistles, the young keekeeing, young jakes with that broken voice yelp and gobbler yelps sometimes you just want to let the whole flock get back together just so you can do it again. NOT!

If one wants to really hear the sounds of the wild turkey, Fall hunt.

[schuyler olt]

Two feathers, you nailed it dead on. I'm getting to where I enjoy fall as much, if not more, than spring.

I don't mind keeping the 4 bird limit, but it ought to be restricted to only 1 bearded bird of the four.

[WBBP]

I wouldn't have a probelm with restricting the the limit to one gobbler in the fall plus three hens. I think most people that hunt in the fall feel this way.

[skin_dog1]

AGREEDED


>>> skin_dog1 ,
I don't enjoy fall hunting cause there is no gobbling involved, <<<

After being skunked for the first time in 6 years in KY and only haveing 4 gobblers gobble other than at LBL (and that is another issue) at least in the fall you get to hear many different sounds of the wild turkey. I have even had mature toms gobble after a flock break up.

Working a flock back in and hearing the ole hen yelping her head off, whistles, the young keekeeing, young jakes with that broken voice yelp and gobbler yelps sometimes you just want to let the whole flock get back together just so you can do it again. NOT!

If one wants to really hear the sounds of the wild turkey, Fall hunt.I agree that all the turkey talk is exciting and last fall I did have a Tom strutting and gobbling to a little hen talk. I couldn't coax him that last 80 yards through an open wheat field though. I thought he was a real mixed up bird! The gobbling response will always be what gets my rocks off, that and the fancy spurs and beards that acompany those gobbles! I still didn't see an invite!!!!!:rolleyes:

[skin_dog1]

I wouldn't have a probelm with restricting the the limit to one gobbler in the fall plus three hens. I think most people that hunt in the fall feel this way.I agree, but would stil like to see the limit lowered if xbows are here to stay.

[sirgiovanni]

It's now going to cost $100 bucks this fall for archery and gun turkey non-resident permits. This will undoubtedly have an effect on the number of active hunters in the fall. Especially when you consider that the spring is your most likely chance to take nice toms at a price of only $20 / 2 birds.

[Valley Station]

Spring of 2006 , Ky NR spring turkey permit will go to $50.00.

[twofeathers]

I still didn't see an invite!!!!!:rolleyes:

When fall gets here we will have to get together. I would be more than glad for us to get to hunt together. Fall hunting is great and to gun hunt behind a good dog makes it better.

You have to pack your own camera and tripod !!:D

[skin_dog1]

You have to pack your own camera and tripod !!:D;) I promise!:o

[warden310]

180 posts and no one has even talked about the number of hunters that are "rolling" turkeys with 50+ yard shots. This "only takes one pellet" idea is a lot bigger issue than many discussed so far. I personally have talked to over 10 hunters this spring that have shot at turkeys over 50 yards and wounded several of those. You haven't "called" the turkey in if you are shooting that far.

Everybody has quoted George Wright's study and no one has talked about his reference to wounded turkeys. He writes about how hunters must manage themselves and not take such careless shots. This issue alone is costing more adult birds than predators, fall seasons, etc.....

Haven't seen any cases of too many hens. No state has ever thought to reduce the hen population. They make more turkeys and that's what I like.

[skin_dog1]

180 posts and no one has even talked about the number of hunters that are "rolling" turkeys with 50+ yard shots. This "only takes one pellet" idea is a lot bigger issue than many discussed so far. I personally have talked to over 10 hunters this spring that have shot at turkeys over 50 yards and wounded several of those. You haven't "called" the turkey in if you are shooting that far.

Everybody has quoted George Wright's study and no one has talked about his reference to wounded turkeys. He writes about how hunters must manage themselves and not take such careless shots. This issue alone is costing more adult birds than predators, fall seasons, etc.....

Haven't seen any cases of too many hens. No state has ever thought to reduce the hen population. They make more turkeys and that's what I like.
Warden, Good point, and point well taken! This will only get worse with so many gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers pumping 3 1/2's and heavy weight sgot. I caught my self in the trap this year and killed one at an embarsing long distance. I knew my gun was effectice to range X, misjudged and killed at well beyond range X. Fortunately my one pellet hit it's mark and done way more damage than Mr. Tom could handle, but I'll admit it was luck. Lots of people think their gun will effectively kill at 60+ yards, maybe maybe not.

[uplandchessies]

180 posts and no one has even talked about the number of hunters that are "rolling" turkeys with 50+ yard shots. This "only takes one pellet" idea is a lot bigger issue than many discussed so far. I personally have talked to over 10 hunters this spring that have shot at turkeys over 50 yards and wounded several of those. You haven't "called" the turkey in if you are shooting that far.

Everybody has quoted George Wright's study and no one has talked about his reference to wounded turkeys. He writes about how hunters must manage themselves and not take such careless shots. This issue alone is costing more adult birds than predators, fall seasons, etc.....

Haven't seen any cases of too many hens. No state has ever thought to reduce the hen population. They make more turkeys and that's what I like.

Warden,

I actually do reference this in post #138 (OK, who missed?). Not only are hunters taking longer shots, they're rushing and using guns that appear not be be properly patterned. These "misses" surely affect the population.

[turk2di]

180 posts and no one has even talked about the number of hunters that are "rolling" turkeys with 50+ yard shots. This "only takes one pellet" idea is a lot bigger issue than many discussed so far. I personally have talked to over 10 hunters this spring that have shot at turkeys over 50 yards and wounded several of those. You haven't "called" the turkey in if you are shooting that far.

Everybody has quoted George Wright's study and no one has talked about his reference to wounded turkeys. He writes about how hunters must manage themselves and not take such careless shots. This issue alone is costing more adult birds than predators, fall seasons, etc.....

Haven't seen any cases of too many hens. No state has ever thought to reduce the hen population. They make more turkeys and that's what I like.
There is a GOD! I have touched on this b4 and other controversial observations. Made me out to be an a stick in the mudd with some! I'll say it again, anyone shooting at a turkey beyond 40 yds ought to have thier license revoked! I don't give a rats what your gun can pattern downrange. I can remember George Wright tellin me that if hunters don't start takin responsibility and quit cripplin so many turkeys, he was gonna take back one of our 2 birds, it was that bad;)

[HappyHunter]

Good point Warden 310...we heard very little gobbling this year and saw and heard fewer toms as the season progressed. I talked to a guy that hunts the same farm the last week of the season. He told me that his brother has had several opportunities, but he shoots too soon. This idiot wounded 3 different toms this season:( Between this, henned up toms, poor hatch 2 years ago, and lousy weather it's no wonder I didn't hear many birds.

I also saw more coyotes this year that appeared to be going to gobbling birds. I called in 2 coyotes that came in looking for the hen they heard. Several times we heard coyotes howling in the distance. In the past birds would gobble at them. This year it shut gobblers down. Maybe coyotes are targeting turkeys more. They may not be killing many gobblers but they may be making them gobble less??

[maxcam]

I agree that every hunter should know the limits of there abilities let alone there equipment...........Amen

Having said that.........Check out www.nitroammunition.com (http://www.nitroammunition.com)

Their product are sold at UNCLE LEE's

And I can report that Ive seen several Bennili's and one bad ass Berretta that will easily kill birds at 50 yards......Dont believe me then cash your check and meet me........Ill take on all who care to try me.......At 40 yards the pellet count in a 10 inch circle is over 290..........and at 50 yards there are dozens of holes in a turkey head and neck area........In a 10 inch cirlcle the pellet count is over 160.

[ril7572]

I agree that every hunter should know the limits of there abilities let alone there equipment...........Amen

Having said that.........Check out www.nitroammunition.com (http://www.nitroammunition.com/)

Their product are sold at UNCLE LEE's

And I can report that Ive seen several Bennili's and one bad ass Berretta that will easily kill birds at 50 yards......Dont believe me then cash your check and meet me........Ill take on all who care to try me.......At 40 yards the pellet count in a 10 inch circle is over 290..........and at 50 yards there are dozens of holes in a turkey head and neck area........In a 10 inch cirlcle the pellet count is over 160.

I've shot Nitros 4x5x7 hevis for 2 years now, it is an awesome load. I still try to hold my shots to 40 yards or less.
Most experianced hunters know there is a big difference shooting at a still paper target and a live bird in a hunting situation. Personally I get tired of hearing about guys shooting at 50 or 60 yard turkeys because their gun patterns well at the range. It will normally lead to a crippled or missed turkey.

[turk2di]

I've shot Nitros 4x5x7 hevis for 2 years now, it is an awesome load. I still try to hold my shots to 40 yards or less.
Most experianced hunters know there is a big difference shooting at a still paper target and a live bird in a hunting situation. Personally I get tired of hearing about guys shooting at 50 or 60 yard turkeys because their gun patterns well at the range. It will normally lead to a crippled or missed turkey.
Nicely put;) Sadly for many, it's get that turkey at any cost! Shooting at a target no bigger than your upper forearm and clinched fist is irresponsible at 50 + yards!

[Ky Headhunter]

"I personally have talked to over 10 hunters this spring that have shot at turkeys over 50 yards and wounded several of those. You haven't "called" the turkey in if you are shooting that far. "

Couldn't agree more. I also know of several really bad shots that were taken this year. They were chalked up as "misses" but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that better'n half of them ended up dead somewhere else due to injury or infection. The thing that gets me is the guys who tell me about these shots are normally very ethical hunters. For some reason they don't seem to take it as seriously with turkeys as with deer. They'd never take that kind of irresponsible shot at a deer. Many just don't place the same value on turkeys as deer, and I'm to the point where I'd just as soon they stopped hunting turkeys altogether, and left them for those who value & respect the resource. I'm not nearly as excited as most about mature bucks, but I don't go taking ill-advised shots at them just because they aren't as big a deal to me as a gobbler.

Just because shotguns are capable of killing a tom at 50 or 60 yards (& some certainly are) doesn't mean it's a good idea. I won't condemn anybody who does, but personally it would kill that special feeling I get when I'm able to work one close. Been hunting turkeys since it was legal in my part of the state, and I can't remember a year in which I wouldn't have tagged out, if I had a gun capable of 60 yard kills (and I took advantage of that capability). I don't hammer people on this, because it's somewhat akin to telling a guy he shouldn't have shot that 100" class 8-pointer 'cause it's "too little", which I detest.

[maxcam]

I've shot Nitros 4x5x7 hevis for 2 years now, it is an awesome load. I still try to hold my shots to 40 yards or less.
Most experianced hunters know there is a big difference shooting at a still paper target and a live bird in a hunting situation. Personally I get tired of hearing about guys shooting at 50 or 60 yard turkeys because their gun patterns well at the range. It will normally lead to a crippled or missed turkey.

I agree that if THE SHOT isnt there dont take it..........But if a hunter and his weapon are capable of making the shot then how is that irresponsible? I haven't lost any of my birds and I don't take a bird at 50 yards everytime. Im just suggesting that the technology is there for hunters that want to match their equipment to their ability............And how many times have you shot that bird at 40 yards and stepped it off to discover that it was more like 45 or 50 yards? Wouldnt it be more ethical to have a gun that is capable of killing a bird 100 percent of the time at 50 yards? This would give you a built in cushion for human error!

Personally I want to see if I can call a bird in so that he kisses the end of my barrel but, there have been a few times when I did thank myself for taking the time to develope a weapon that will reach out and touch one when the situation called for it!!!!!!

If a 40 yard shot is what every hunter should develope his gun to perform to, then why shouldnt we strive for even better results........If that werent the case then why develope a 3.5 inch shotgun that is capable of it?

My post was to inform guys that are frustrated with what they have there is a good alternative......

How many tubes and shells have you purchased and still are not comfortable with the performance of your gun? I know that is the case for alot of hunters. Look at how intimadating the process is for a novice that is just starting......... I know I have spent alot of time and money to get to where I am and wish that I would have known about Nitro from the begining........

For anyone the reads this let me state that you need to shoot shoot shoot so that you are comfortable in your ability...........Then and only then when you are confident in yourself and your weapon should you decide what your effective range is........

[turk2di]

If people have 2b told why it's irresponsible, then why bother! Besides, the yotes gotta eat! Right?

[Multidigits]

2002 - 28,292
2003 - 27,550
2004 - 26,405
2005 - 27,473

You have to add the WMA birds in to the totals, they are called in separately this year for the first time. Making this one of the better years we've had in spite of the bad rap given it.

[kybowhunter1963]

if a person claims the tele-check numbers for deer are wrong/manipulated....how can they hang their hat on the turkey tele-check numbers??

Just asking!

[Multidigits]

Those are "checked numbers". Everyone knows they don't include all the turkeys or deer killed each year, only the ones called in. But it's the same as the other years and the same basic number of turkeys killed as in the other years in the comparison.

Sorry, Glen, I realize your not up to speed on things to good. Next time I'll dumb it down for you at the start. :D

[kybowhunter1963]

Glad to know you are still in fighting form..........!!

xxoo

[buckfever]

2002 - 28,292
2003 - 27,550
2004 - 26,405
2005 - 27,473

You have to add the WMA birds in to the totals, they are called in separately this year for the first time. Making this one of the better years we've had in spite of the bad rap given it.

What makes you think the Dept hasn't already added in the WMA totals into their telecheck numbers?

[turk2di]

What makes you think the Dept hasn't already added in the WMA totals into their telecheck numbers?
Hell, thier ballpark figures! They are no more exact than population estimations. Back in the old days(90's old days?), George Wright had to guess at the final talley due to the fact that not all the mom& pop stores in podunk would send in thier harvest(check-in) cards!

[Multidigits]

Glad to know you are still in fighting form..........!!

xxoo

I'm still alive...for the most part.

[Multidigits]

What makes you think the Dept hasn't already added in the WMA totals into their telecheck numbers?

Because I can read. The WMA numbers are on a separate page. You pull both of them up and add them together. Wasn't that way last year or before.

[Multidigits]

Hell, thier ballpark figures! They are no more exact than population estimations. Back in the old days(90's old days?), George Wright had to guess at the final talley due to the fact that not all the mom& pop stores in podunk would send in thier harvest(check-in) cards!

Probably at least 30% off. That's about what is estimated for deer. That's a lot of turkeys. Still over all a very good harvest number.

[turk2di]

Probably at least 30% off. That's about what is estimated for deer. That's a lot of turkeys. Still over all a very good harvest number.
Right. Im not concerened at all. Next year many will be postin that we should be allowed three;)

[ceohunter]

Because I can read. The WMA numbers are on a separate page. You pull both of them up and add them together. Wasn't that way last year or before.

How do you know that this just isn't a report to track the number of birds harvested on public ground? If someone has spoken to the dept. I would really be interested in knowing for sure. If multi is wrong, muhlenberg had a 16% decrease in harvest this year.

I have not seen it written anywhere that the numbers are seperate and you must add them up to get a total statewide harvest.

[turk2di]

Wasn't that the whole Idea in allowing the option of reporting birds killed on WMA's? To find out the number being taken on public. Perhaps im not following you here:confused:

[schuyler olt]

Somebody might want to check whether the WMA totals are not already included within the overall totals. My understanding is that they are, but were broken out seperately to show impact on public ground. I could be wrong, but it bears verification one way or the other.

As to the 30% variance, I sure hope the 30% isn't an overestimation. If it is, that's not a good thing.

[Multidigits]

How do you know that this just isn't a report to track the number of birds harvested on public ground? If someone has spoken to the dept. I would really be interested in knowing for sure. If multi is wrong, muhlenberg had a 16% decrease in harvest this year.

I have not seen it written anywhere that the numbers are seperate and you must add them up to get a total statewide harvest.

Telechek numbers are tracked each day. You can watch the numbers change. Birds killed last year on DBNF or Peabody were called in on a county harvest. this year they are tracked by the WMA they were takne off of. This started last Fall.

It'll be a good way to track the number of crossbow users on the WMa this year as is one of the concerns with the controversy. The Dept. has the ability to close or restrict any WMa getting too much use or in danger of any over harvest.

As for the though that the birds are double entered, it's not true. There's only one confirmation number given for each entry. That means it separate.

Add the totals together for a true statewide number--except for bonus birds such as Ft. Knox, etc.

[schuyler olt]

Tom, just because one confirmation number is given doesn't mean the public ground numbers couldn't be included in the totals and broken out seperately, just like modern firearms, blackpowder, male/female, adult/jakes, etc. Are you going on what somebody at the department told you? If so, who?

[Multidigits]

Tom, just because one confirmation number is given doesn't mean the public ground numbers couldn't be included in the totals and broken out seperately, just like modern firearms, blackpowder, male/female, adult/jakes, etc. Are you going on what somebody at the department told you? If so, who?

Nope, I'm going on what I know about the system. The hunting guide has the list of codes that are part of the confirmation number. Those codes are part of the info in the comfirm. number. If you call a bird in and use the code for a particular WMA, there's no info available that would allow them to put it in a certain county if that WMA covers more than one county as most of them do.


One number, separate lists--tells me the numbers are separate. I could be wrong, but don't think so. It would be too much trouble to have one bird included on two different lists.

[Multidigits]

Looks like I'm wrong on what I posted. Jim said the first overall page shows the correct harvest.

The WMA page is generated during the call by a question when the caller is asked if he killed the bird on public or private land.

Also, he does not use a % factor in population models related to birds killed and not checked. He thought the number of birds in this catagory would mirror the number of deer in the same catagory, but he hasn't ever figured it in for population purposes.

Sorry for the mistake.

[Valley Station]

Multi,
Sure that you were wrong??
Isn't WMA ID'd by the WMA Code number that is entered by hunter during Telechek.
For example, in the case of Breckinridge county, how will checking public or private land selection, identify harvest from Rough River or Yellowbanks??
Harvested turkey were listed from both.

[Multidigits]

Multi,
Sure that you were wrong??
Isn't WMA ID'd by the WMA Code number that is entered by hunter during Telechek.
For example, in the case of Breckinridge county, how will checking public or private land selection, identify harvest from Rough River or Yellowbanks??
Harvested turkey were listed from both.

Well, that's what I originally thought. Jim Lane said they assign the caller a county during the call when they are asked if they killed the bird on public ground. Seems it would be difficult at best, if there's more than one WMA in a county, or that a WMA takes in more than one county. Some folks may not even know what county they are in when on a WMA? But that's what they said, so until proven otherwise, I'll still say I was wrong.

[buckfever]

It seems that they need to amend telecheck to include the county code first and then ask for the WMA code if applicable.

At the end of the day, it appears we've had declining spring harvests for the last 3 years. Somebody commented that the number of turkey tags sold has increased by 20,000. If true, declining numbers in the face of increased hunting doesn't bode well, although the increase in the fall harvest might explain some of that (although aren't many more hens taken in the fall).

Somebody else said that we've had "poor" hatches the last 3 years (2002-2004). It was my understanding that 2002 and 2004 were "good" hatches and that 2003 was just "fair". Does anybody know how the KDFWR labeled these recent hatches?

Lastly, what's up with this 40-60% winter mortality stat? I saw a group of 33 hens all last season, and they didn't lose a single bird until January.

[ceohunter]

2002 - 28,292
2003 - 27,550
2004 - 26,405
2005 - 27,473

You have to add the WMA birds in to the totals, they are called in separately this year for the first time. Making this one of the better years we've had in spite of the bad rap given it.

Harvest is in fact declining the last three years. In particular Muhlenberg County was down 16%! About 4% decline statewide from last year and 10% from 2002.

2002 - 28,292
2003 - 27,550
2004 - 26,405
2005 - 25,703

[schuyler olt]

2004 was 2.8 poults per clutch, and this was labelled good. Within the last eight years or so, we have had some phenomenal hatches--approaching 5 birds per clutch during a couple of years. Part of the decline is simply attributable to a larger flock, and this is consistent with the experience of more established states such as Missouri and the southern tier states. However, predation and weather have contributed as well.

George Wright always believed we had a habitat carrying capacity of around 500,000 birds. We're about halfway there and whacking 'em like Zone 1 does. Time and time again I've said on here that I wish we would not liberize things for about 5 more years--then we'd hopefully have so many gobblers it would be hand-to-beak combat.

There's a ton of research on hen mortality that you can find in the NWTF's published symposia proceedings, including George's gobbler mortality study. In that instance, George used radios on gobblers over five years. Aside from finding out what killed gobblers, he found out a bunch of other interesting tidbits, such as how far birds would travel to flock up in the fall and break up in the spring.

One such item--the jakes you saw this spring will probably not be the gobblers you see next spring. They will seek new territories, while other birds will filter in. Why? I've got no clue, but it's an interesting way for Mother Nature to bring new genetics to a flock, isn't it?

[Multidigits]

"Time and time again I've said on here that I wish we would not liberize things for about 5 more years--then we'd hopefully have so many gobblers it would be hand-to-beak combat."


I guess you said that AFTER you got the fall season started? which turned out to be two fall seasons instead of one. Not that it matters, but I support the fall season. and I support what Jim Lane is telling us about the turkey flock as well. George is gone, and it's a new era in the turkey flock. The reality is that the turkey flock is doing fine, inspite of the more libeal FALL season. In fact, theres room for more at this point, at least in the fall.

[WBBP]

Buckfever:

You brought up some interesting questions. I personally believe that the turkey population is alive and well, especially in our area. Yes, the spring harvest is down a little over the last few years, but I just don't see any reason for alarm. To many variables to consider such as weather related mortality, predation, hatch numbers, poaching and then the addition of the fall season. When you add in the fall season, the numbers aren't much off or at all. As I said earlier in a post, 50% of our counties either were the same or had a net increase in the spring gobbler harvest over last year. The biggest losses were in the top 10 couties.

I wonder if the top 10 Counties for turkey harvest aren't seeing slightly less pressure than before since the turkey population has really boomed in the the other areas of the state. I know we have more new hunters across the state, but I would guess that alot of those hunters are in areas where the increase in turkey population is more recent.

I too have a lot of questions about mortality. On my farm, I think the mortality for turkeys is low, because our conditions over the winter are optimal, since we still have a lot of standing corn for the turkeys to eat.

Thinking out loud, it would a real plus for the Department to put on a presentation at a few locations around the state to better educate the hunters about the dynamics of the turkey program. The topics could include details on how the Department estimates and tracks population, population models, mortality differentials, predation, affects of poaching and over harvest (which is common), status of the current program, regulations, and future predicitions, and many others. In general, a detailed educational overview as part of an outreach strategy to our sportsman. I think that a better educated hunter would help to prevent the mis-use of turkey harvest data on either side.

I want to learn more and this would be a good way for large groups in different parts of the state to hear the same information at the same time. It would also get the Department out in front of the hunting public which is a good thing. I think I will send this suggestion to Jim Lane and Dr. Gassett. This outreach would need to consist of more than a 30 minute speech, it would need to be a least a day so we can get the details we need.

[Multidigits]

I'm not a turkey expert and don't claim to be. I'll defer that to the biologists. But I've seen poor harvest years in other states and can tell you that a swing of a 1000 or 2000 birds a year is nothing more than a natural fluctuation. Too many things effect those numbers. None of which are a lack of turkeys. I had hunters on one of my clubs under 15 gobblers one day and he killed none of them. Birds gobbled there better than most places but they still kill less than 10 from the property. Everybody had birds on them on all my places each day, they just didn't kill a bird everyday. Most of the guys that kill turkeys each year, killed them again this year. Most of the rookies struggled. But it wasn't from not having birds to hunt. I think it's a hell of a long way from the panic point.

[buckfever]

It seems to me like the turkey (or at least gobbler) populations are tending to stabilize if not trend downward. It's hard to believe that the populations are growing when we have more hunters harvesting fewer birds every spring. Even if the new hunters aren't very astute right now at killing toms, they will eventually overcome this learning curve. Weren't we all beginners at some point?

If the populations have actually declined, I'd like to see more of an emphasis on hens in the fall and less on gobblers. To that end, I wouldn't mind seeing a 1 tom limit in the fall regardless of the weapon used (bow, xbow or gun).

[Multidigits]

It seems to me like the turkey (or at least gobbler) populations are tending to stabilize if not trend downward. It's hard to believe that the populations are growing when we have more hunters harvesting fewer birds every spring. Even if the new hunters aren't very astute right now at killing toms, they will eventually overcome this learning curve. Weren't we all beginners at some point?

If the populations have actually declined, I'd like to see more of an emphasis on hens in the fall and less on gobblers. To that end, I wouldn't mind seeing a 1 tom limit in the fall regardless of the weapon used (bow, xbow or gun).

Jim Lane said we would have a few less two year old birds in the flock this year, not that overall bird or even gobblers were ib short supply.

And with more hunters educating the birds on more days, especially with weekend hunting, more hunters will translate in a poorer harvest average, not an increase.

As for the fall harvest, it's not a factor yet, and hasn't reached the point where anything needs to be cut back. In fact, it has plenty of room to increase(in the fall). That is unless you don't agree with the biologist.

I guess in the end, this ends up being what people precieve verses what our biologists tell us about the flock. I'll belive the biologist at this point. After all, two years ago he was then considered to be an expert by the Ky-NWTF folks wanting the fall season(s).

[buckfever]

And with more hunters educating the birds on more days, especially with weekend hunting, more hunters will translate in a poorer harvest average, not an increase.

This doesn't make sense to me. If we have more hunters, there is simply no way the overall harvest is going to continue to decline (unless we have fewer birds). If "educating the birds" was the product of hunting pressure, the birds in Alabama would be unkillable. Do you think that more deer hunters will lead to fewer deer being killed? If not, why? After all, aren't deer smarter and therefore more capable of being "educated" than turkeys? It might be true that the harvest rate for these new add-on hunters might not be as high as for the existing hunters (b/c they're novices), but the numbers we're talking about aren't harvest average numbers, they are ABSOLUTE numbers - And they are declining.

As for the fall harvest, it's not a factor yet, and hasn't reached the point where anything needs to be cut back. In fact, it has plenty of room to increase(in the fall). That is unless you don't agree with the biologist.

How do you separate the fall and spring harvests? It seems to me that a gobbler in the fall will be a gobbler in the spring and vice versa. I understand that the theory is that some of the fall toms will succumb to winter mortality and thus won't be around to participate in the Spring breeding, but isn't that true of our spring toms as well? Our seasons have been structured, according to "the biologist", so that the spring season comes in AFTER the peak breeding has occurred. Those toms that we chase this Spring are purportedly done with the vast majority of the breeding for this year, so they have to survive the summer, fall and winter before they breed next year. So, no, I guess I don't necessarily understand or agree with this notion that the Fall seasons are entirely separate from the Spring seasons.

I guess in the end, this ends up being what people precieve verses what our biologists tell us about the flock. I'll belive the biologist at this point. After all, two years ago he was then considered to be an expert by the Ky-NWTF folks wanting the fall season(s).

People should always be questioning decisions made by the people responsible for protecting our natural resources. Questions lead to accountability and healthy discourse will always open up new doors of understanding. I don't think it's fair or warranted to make this a "you're either for the Dept or against the Dept" matter. People should be entitled and encouraged to question decisions made at all levels of our Gov't.

[pb]

I've shot Nitros 4x5x7 hevis for 2 years now, it is an awesome load. I still try to hold my shots to 40 yards or less.
Most experianced hunters know there is a big difference shooting at a still paper target and a live bird in a hunting situation. Personally I get tired of hearing about guys shooting at 50 or 60 yard turkeys because their gun patterns well at the range. It will normally lead to a crippled or missed turkey.
Wouldn't that load be illegal in KY?

[pb]

I agree that every hunter should know the limits of there abilities let alone there equipment...........Amen

Having said that.........Check out www.nitroammunition.com (http://www.nitroammunition.com)

Their product are sold at UNCLE LEE's

And I can report that Ive seen several Bennili's and one bad ass Berretta that will easily kill birds at 50 yards......Dont believe me then cash your check and meet me........Ill take on all who care to try me.......At 40 yards the pellet count in a 10 inch circle is over 290..........and at 50 yards there are dozens of holes in a turkey head and neck area........In a 10 inch cirlcle the pellet count is over 160.
Which loads were you using?

[schuyler olt]

Matrix loads (4X6), etc., are NOT legal in Kentucky to the best of my knowledge.

[pb]

I was thinking about the #7s in that 4x5x7!

[schuyler olt]

Turns out matrix loads are legal, SO LONG AS the largest shot is not larger than #4s. Remington has a load out that is 2x4, which would not be legal, but a 4x6 would be. TECHNICALLY, you could use #9s legally, although you should be flogged for doing so.

Years ago I used some 4x6 loads, and wasn't much taken with them because the patterns weren't very uniform no matter what you did. But I haven't tried the Hevi-Shot Nitros, either.

Like everyone else, I suppose, I try to limit myself to 40 yards. I absolutely take no pride in killing a bird at 62 steps--I was hunting an open area out west I had not hunted before and got badly fooled on the distance. I thought that bird was well within range when I took the shot, and was dumbfounded when I paced it off. And it was by no means a lucky pellet kill, either.

[ceohunter]

Wouldn't that load be illegal in KY?

They (4X5X7) are perfectly legal in KY. As long as the shot size isn't larger than a #4. 7s are legal.

The patterns of these particular shells referenced above "nitros" throw a really nice uniform pattern.

[pb]

Thanks, for some reason I was thinking you couldn't use anything smaller than a #6. I will probably try some of the nitros, although I did try the Remington 4x6 and couldn't get them to pattern in anything.

[mossyhorns]

I think it's all a matter of interpreting "biologist-speak." Saying that fall harvest or increased spring harvest will not impact the flock is not the same thing as saying it will not impact hunting. As a flock grows, more and more individuals can be removed without putting the flock in jeapordy. To put it another way, it means that the population will be able to maintain or grow even with increased harvest.

It does not mean that there will still be scads of toms around in the spring to gobble their heads off. It just means that the "flock" or population will survive.

For the past 4 years, I have hunted the final 2 days of the MO season and am always astounded at the number of birds that I hear. (It's private land, but fairly heavily hunted.) There are birds gobbling from every direction, every woods lot and tree line -- even though they were still hanging tight to the hens. I would rather take 1 tom and hear many than to take 3 birds on quiet mornings.

MO is beginning to liberalize their season. Like KY, they appear to be opting for long fall seasons. They still have a 2 bird limit, stop hunting at 1:00 PM, and allow only 1 bird during the first week of season. THey are also going to telechek, if that makes any difference.

[turk2di]

I think it's great that we all care enuf about the turkey to debate like this. So far no name calling or petulance;) I can remember a conversation with George Wright years ago when i asked him if Ky would ever have the birds Missouri has. He said no, that we would top out around 250,000-300,000 and once we hit a high in harvest, it would fluctuate from year to year. We have about reached that folks. Reduce poaching, not bag limits.... stop long range shooting, not shorten the fall. There are things we can do that would be a help.

[Feedman]

How many people have heard of hunters who did not check in their turkey's this year??
I personally have heard of 5 birds that were taken on private land and not checked in.
30% unchecked statewide might be pretty close to accurate. If this is true we are killing a lot more turkey's than we think. Not to mention wounded or crippled birds. I have heard of 3 that were shot and not recovered.
I agree with mossyhorns, I have rather hear more birds and harvest less than to go and hear no birds at all.
I know of lots of area's that have not reached the carrying capacity of the land. Maybe we do need to go to some type of zone system for a few years to let the population grow in certain area's of the state.

[WBBP]

Feedman:

Like you, I have been making the rounds talking to other hunters and the whispers I am hearing about hunters killing 3, 4 and even five birds each is astounding. It is a lot more common than I ever thought. I wonder if 30% will even touch what is going on. Turkeys, just by the nature of their size make it easier to over-harvest and poach them.

It is strange, I really never hear much about over-harvest while the season is going on. The stories seem to pop up later in the days and weeks to follow. Part of it is that I don't tolerate any of this non-sense and therefore don't associate with "people" that do stuff like that, so it takes awhile to get the truth to come out of hiding. I wish I could get some details and I would definately report them to the CO's. The general problem is that these law-breakers are usually part of what I call the LCE (Lower Criminal Element) and it is hard for me to get on the inside where I know details.

Anyone have any solutions to the over-harvest issue?

[turk2di]

Zero on the zones. If turkeys are not in your neck of the woods, there is a reason. POACHING! In one form or another. Out the window, untagged, somehow! Yes, every year i hear of the guy who killed 3..4..5. Braggarts. Criminals!

[Feedman]

Feedman:

Like you, I have been making the rounds talking to other hunters and the whispers I am hearing about hunters killing 3, 4 and even five birds each is astounding. It is a lot more common than I ever thought. I wonder if 30% will even touch what is going on. Turkeys, just by the nature of their size make it easier to over-harvest and poach them.

It is strange, I really never hear much about over-harvest while the season is going on. The stories seem to pop up later in the days and weeks to follow. Part of it is that I don't tolerate any of this non-sense and therefore don't associate with "people" that do stuff like that, so it takes awhile to get the truth to come out of hiding. I wish I could get some details and I would definately report them to the CO's. The general problem is that these law-breakers are usually part of what I call the LCE (Lower Criminal Element) and it is hard for me to get on the inside where I know details.

Anyone have any solutions to the over-harvest issue?

WBBP,
I am finding out my information the same way that you are. Most of these birds were killed on private land by the landowner. they seem to not see the need to check the birds in with F + W. What really grips my $ss was the guy at lunch day before yesterday talking about the 2 birds that he shot and they flew off and he never even tried to go and retrieve them. He said that there werer plenty of turkey's, he would just go and call up another.

On the over harvest issue, One gobbler in the fall, let the jakes walk unless you are a 1st time hunter or a youth.

[maxcam]

Feedman:

Like you, I have been making the rounds talking to other hunters and the whispers I am hearing about hunters killing 3, 4 and even five birds each is astounding. It is a lot more common than I ever thought. I wonder if 30% will even touch what is going on. Turkeys, just by the nature of their size make it easier to over-harvest and poach them.

It is strange, I really never hear much about over-harvest while the season is going on. The stories seem to pop up later in the days and weeks to follow. Part of it is that I don't tolerate any of this non-sense and therefore don't associate with "people" that do stuff like that, so it takes awhile to get the truth to come out of hiding. I wish I could get some details and I would definately report them to the CO's. The general problem is that these law-breakers are usually part of what I call the LCE (Lower Criminal Element) and it is hard for me to get on the inside where I know details.

Anyone have any solutions to the over-harvest issue?

Actually I have heard from a reliable sourse that the KDFW uses a 40% error of margin in determining how many and by whom for their data...........:eek:

[maxcam]

[QUOTE=pb]Which loads were you using?[/QUOTE

they are the recommended load for the Berretta Extrema HB 5013 i belive....They are a matrix of 4x6x7 heavy shot load at about 1200fps........

There is a recommendations chart provided on the website that best suits your gun .......They also recommend a specific Rhino chole tube to go along with your gun and their loads......Its a package to get the best perfomance.....