Hunting backwater

[BDT]

I wanted to ask this question on this board. People tell me that any backwater that comes directly off a river is public land. Now, I know that it would be unethical to hunt on someone's land in backwater if they were hunting it or if it were unsafe or something. I'm not trying to cause any trouble. The question I was asking is: Is backwater off a river considered public land if you get there by river? Thanks.

[Marcus]

Either way, I would ask whoever owned the property. I would hate to have good river bottom land and take the time to plant food plots and crops to hold the deer there during hunting season just to let someone else come in and reap the harvest. I wish I knew, but I can sure tell you the ethical approach would be to ask. Who knows, more than likely someone might let you if you have good standings with your neighbors. I know I wouldn't try to force myself to hunt an area if they didn't want me there. Just the same I don't know for sure, but I doubt that backwater is public land.

[Marcus]

I forgot to mention I will try to find out as soon as I can for you.

[MQ1ofKy]

If it's not on the map as public WMA I would assume it is PRIVATE ..Most old deeds will refer to the center of the waterway...If the water is not owned by someone the banks are..

[BDT]

What I was talking about is duck hunting in backwater when the river gets up. If you stay in a boat and don't touch the land, I have heard this is legal. Like I said before though, I'm not going to cause any trouble. You're definitely right that asking is the best way. I was just curious as to what the law said about this. Thanks for the replies.

[Duster]

I believe what you would run into is the....High water mark rule.. Most laws on public access on navigable rivers & streams refer to the high water mark of normal pool. Some places the landowner owns the bottom of the river or stream but not the flowing water. Lets just say a flood allows access to a farm pond loaded with fish or a corn field loaded with ducks even tho the water is only 6 inches deep but you can get a jon boat to it. I would think this would constitute tresspassing on private property.



Edited by - Duster on 01/25/2002 5:18:22 PM

[Multidigits]

I don't think this is tresspassing. The water and all navigable streams belong to the Corp of Engineers. As long as your in a boat, and don't touch shore, you have to be alright. All navigable streams are public, but access to them is not.

[Duster]

The KEY word here is NAVIGABLE... Flood waters outside the normal path of a river or stream are not Navigable.

[Multidigits]

If you can get in and out in a boat, you navigated that area. The same rules apply to creeks or streams running through a person property. They are open to fishing, if you don't have to trespass to get to them. The same rules should also apply to hunting uses.

[Duster]

Multidigits... I think your interpretation of the law is a bit off. Let's do a test....I own 500 acres of riverbottoms land that I run a commerical duck hunting operation on. I draw water from a nearby river to flood the corn stubble or bean stubble each year. There is a county road that runs on one end of my property. Some hard rains came an overflowed the river to an extent that it backed up along the county road. Do you feel you have the RIGHT to launch a boat off the county road an hunt floodwaters over my property ? I am afraid we would have to let a county judge decide who was right or wrong. Not trying to start a big argument here, just hope this clears up my feelings on this subject.



Edited by - Duster on 01/27/2002 09:17:53 AM

[GSP]

I believe the law enables use of the stream within the banks at normal pool, not flood stage waters.
I've been trying to find the written law on this without any success.
I agree with Duster. I would stay off someones flooded
river bottom.

[raktrakr]

if theres no fence,does that mean theres no boundry??? what i mean is.just because the waters up,i dont think it would be legal



Edited by - raktrakr on 01/27/2002 2:58:42 PM

[Multidigits]

Yeah, I believe you could do that, but don't know many that would. Same as you could hunt that area during normal water levels, if you have access to get your boat into the water. You can't set your feet on the ground, though. You'd have to stay in the boat. Some restrictions would apply in Ballard Co., I believe, but not sure.

[RutNBuck]

Ok guys heres what i got when i asked a warden the very same question
OLD LAW....if your standing in water from public waters rivers,creeks and such you are legal
NOT ANY MORE
NEW LAW >>if your standing on land your trespassing..(of course if you dont have permission to be doing so)
i do believe that would define being in a boat as a legal practice


"A wise indian once said,the more you move the less you will see,the less you move the more you will see"

[Valley Station]

Trespass rules are a little different on federal property, such as,
national refuge(Ballard) or Ft.Knox.
If your on Salt River or Rolling Fork on Ft. Knox , the MP's will quote you different rules, as they cuff you and haul you away!

[Duster]

After reading RutnBucks reply I contacted the local C.O. here. His reply was if someone put a boat in off that county road in an attempt to hunt my property all I had to do was give him a call an they WOULD be arrested for tresspassing. He said if under the senero RutnBuck stated the water better be pretty deep because if those in the boat touched one blade of grass, one tree, or a motor, paddle or oar hit bottom then they were no longer only on the water. He also said it would be real hard In his opinion to launch a boat an not step at least ONE foot under the water to shove off. Yall can take this anyway you want but like I said if I caught someone out in my operation the judge would make the final determination on legal or not.

Under RutnBucks senero the water I pump in from the nearby river to flood the fields with would be public water since it came from a navigatible stream. So I guess I better not pump enough to flood near that county road..:-)



Edited by - Duster on 01/28/2002 08:05:37 AM

[Multidigits]

I don't see how putting a boat in off a flooded county road could be construed as trespassing. I also doubt you'd be able to prove that anyone touched something under the surface of the water while they were in their boat. If they get out and walk around in waders, then maybe so. Some areas have a 200 yard set up buffer, that may apply to your operation.

[FW OFFICER]

State law states that public waters are " all waters flowing in a NATURAL stream channel." The main word here is "natural" . If the waterway has flooded, into a field, out of the stream banks, it's not in it's natural stream channel. So, being in a flooded field would constitute trespassing and hunting w/ out permission and the subject could be cited.

[Valley Station]

FW OFFICER ,

Fishermen and duck hunters have always fished/hunted
"Back water by boat" up and down the Ohio River.Didn't realize we are all a bunch of outlaws. Never heard that before.
What is K.R.S. on that one?? Please advise.

[Multidigits]

The surface area of the water would seem to be all connected. I'd have to take my chances with a judge on that one and hoped I didn't get one that owned river bottom land.

[FW OFFICER]

Valley Station,
No where in my post did I say that hunting / fishing the backwaters was illegal and those that did were outlaws. What I said was if the waters were out of their natural channel and flooded a field, then persons going into that field could be cited for trespassing and hunting w/out permission. The waters are out of their natural channel/ banks. If it was a private field before the flood waters got to it, then its still private land, even though its flooded. Check out this question: If the water floods your house, does that give a person the right to ride his boat thru your living room as long as he doesn't get out? Kind of drastic, but same scenerio. As to the KRS: check out the definition of" public waters" in Chapter 150: Fish & Wildlife Regulations.
Some backwaters along the Ohio run into the city limits of the towns along it banks. Some of those cities have ordinances against firing weapons inside the city limits. Check with the cities around the areas you hunt to see what their regs are.

[Valley Station]

FW OFFICER ,

In K.R.S. Chapter 150 definitions.
"Public Water" means all waters..... impounded on a natural stream."
Do you think that includes "backwater in a flooded field"??
Navigatable by a boat?

[Multidigits]

Concerning the Ohio River, where does the landowners property stop, say in periods of low water. Seems like I've always heard something to the effect of "high water mark"?????

[FW OFFICER]

Gentlemen
I thought I explained pretty clearly what the regs say. If you have different convictions or beliefs, try them and see what the land owners and officers that respond say. Guy's, thats all I can say.

[Strutter]

Not to stir things up but it seems to me that the part In K.R.S. Chapter 150 definitions that says:
"Public Water" means all waters..... impounded on a natural stream."

This would NOT in my opinion include flooded backwaters due to the fact that it says "NATURAL" stream. Therefore, if the river or stream is out of it's normal banks, then it is no longer natural.

Just My Opinion,
Strutter

[Valley Station]

Strutter ,

Just for discussions sake, Webster's dictionary defines impound-To hold water, as in a reservoir.
When you hold water back , in a natural stream ( not man-made , such as a canal), the water can overflow the bank creating "back water".

[CSS archer]

You are not allowed to get out of the top bank of the stream or river. FW Officer is telling you right. If it is a WMA you'd be ok 200 yards from other hunters.

[FW OFFICER]

Valley,
With all due respect, we're not talking Webster here, we're talking Ky state law. Bring a copy of Webster and a copy of the KRS to court and see which one the judge rules from. They'll go by the KRS.

[Multidigits]

OK, so the line is the top of the bank. I guess that means you can set up anywhere below that point and be legal? In other words, the landowner doesn't control the land from the top of the bank to the waters edge in normal pool times?

[Duster]

Well Multidigits..Since the land owner owns the bottom of the stream but not the flowing water which is stated above by Rutnbuck the top of the bank is not the property line. I believe what he is trying to say is you can float the stream but not wade without permission. So getting out an setting up on the bank would be a no no.



Edited by - Duster on 01/31/2002 05:06:32 AM

[RutNBuck]

UPDATE::
Guys after re-reading my post i have left out a key piece
I was told the law (used) to read if your wading say Elkhorn creek you was fine as long as you didnt get out on the bank...

BUT i am now being told that again if i am wading Elkhorn creek and my feet are touching bottom even if i am in the middle of the stream in waters up to my neck i am trespassing...this can be a grey area i guess it would be up to each officers to determine how he views this...
the officer i spoke with is a Lieutant (sp)
and i quote
"IF YOUR FEET IS TOUCHING THE BOTTOM YOUR TRESPASSING"

"A wise indian once said,the more you move the less you will see,the less you move the more you will see"

[Flintlock54]

RutnBuck:

The Captain over in Clark County feels the same way. "If your feet hit the bottom you are trespassing."

[Valley Station]

RutNBuck ,

I don't think , anybody really questioned if your feet touched the bottom-i.e.- Wading in a creek without landowners permission could constitute tresppass. Regulation is quite clear.
What was questioned , was the F & W interpretation of Kentucky laws, definition of "public water" and if "flood water / back water" constituted legally boat accessable "Public water".
F&W responded to the question and I appreciate it.