Pope and Young Overstepping

[Willie]

This sounds like a bunch of anti-hunters to me. They not only don’t want any crossbow legalized in any more states, but they also want the crossbowers kicked out of any archery season that they are in now.

The first two paragrahs I agree with. They can do whatever they want with their club. The last two they are stepping on a lot of toes that could step right back.

Sounds like another group trying to tell the DNRs how to run their business.


POPE AND YOUNG CROSSBOW POLICY STATEMENT

The Pope and Young was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept an trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of the crossbow during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting season. Also, the club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons and the use of the crossbows for hunting be restricted to firearms seasons.

[Multidigits]

It's obviously a antiquated policy for sure. With Game Dept. all over the south looking for new ways to manage their game populations, plus improve the bottom line of hunting in general, looks as if the P & Y club is missing the boat. For a Club that had such a time with a weapon that was universely accepted for many years before they recognized, it's not a surprise.

[buckfever]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but, in all fairness, what P&Y does will have no bearing on the crossbow issue here or elsewhere. So why get up in arm and worry about it? I mean, after all, P&Y is a bow organization and doesn't recognize trophies harvested by many weapons - e.g. ML or gun kills. I think everyone agrees that a crossbow is not a bow, so what difference does it make if P&Y opts not to recognize crossbow kills? There are plenty of organizations (e.g. B&C and KY's own BBBC) that do, and I'm sure there will soon be a comparable crossbow organization to record those trophies. If there isn't, I think that there are crossbow proponents (yes, you guys, Gwhillie, Multi, and Willie) that are motivated enough to see that such an organization comes to pass.

And, yes, while I am aware that compound bows are different and easier to master than recurves and longbows, P&Y simply decided to draw their line at a weapon that is largely limited by the inherent strength of the person using it (up to 80% let-off restriction). As a private group, they certainly have the right to pass any rule they want (and as I'm sure you're aware, the 80% let-off hunters all have the dreaded asterisk by their names).

Under Kentucky's definition of a crossbow, however, there is no max or min limit for crossbows. The only limitation on the weapon is technology. Thus, even the smallest hunter could obstensibly shoot a 500 lb crossbow at deer at incredibly long distances. It's really a distinction by one group that will have no bearing on crossbows over the long haul.

Just my thoughts.

[buckfever]

As for the last paragraph or two, that also doesn't make any difference. They simply don't want crossbows to be included in "archery seasons". This certainly doesn't mean that there can't be a "crossbow season" that is exactly the same as an archery season.

[Multidigits]

....................................I'm not trying to start an argument, but, in all fairness, what P&Y does will have no bearing on the crossbow issue here or elsewhere. So why get up in arm and worry about it? I mean, after all, P&Y is a bow organization and doesn't recognize trophies harvested by many weapons - e.g. ML or gun kills. I think everyone agrees that a crossbow is not a bow Not true, not everyone agreees with that, including some in the Dept. Hdq. building, and one in the State Attorn. office that I know of, there's probably others too., so what difference does it make if P&Y opts not to recognize crossbow kills? There are plenty of organizations (e.g. B&C and KY's own BBBC) that do, and I'm sure there will soon be a comparable crossbow organization to record those trophies. If there isn't, I think that there are crossbow proponents (yes, you guys, Gwhillie, Multi, and Willie) that are motivated enough to see that such an organization comes to pass.

And, yes, while I am aware that compound bows are different and easier to master than recurves and longbows, P&Y simply decided to draw their line at a weapon that is largely limited by the inherent strength of the person using it (up to 80% let-off restriction). As a private group, they certainly have the right to pass any rule they want (and as I'm sure you're aware, the 80% let-off hunters all have the dreaded asterisk by their names).

Under Kentucky's definition of a crossbow, however, there is no max or min limit for crossbows. The only limitation on the weapon is technology. Thus, even the smallest hunter could obstensibly shoot a 500 lb crossbow at deer at incredibly long distances yet another attempt to mislead, if there was a 500 lb crossbow, what would the range potential be?????. It's really a distinction by one group that will have no bearing on crossbows over the long haul.

Just my thoughts.

[Multidigits]

As for the last paragraph or two, that also doesn't make any difference. They simply don't want crossbows to be included in "archery seasons". This certainly doesn't mean that there can't be a "crossbow season" that is exactly the same as an archery season.

Nope, you read it wrong. It says the crossbow shouldn't be used in any bowhunting season. Crossbow hunting is also bowhunting, even if you don't consider the crossbow to be a bow. It's still has a bow as part of the mechanizism and it shoots an arrow. It's part of bowhunting and has it's place. The P & Y theory also discrimantes against handicap hunters, as there is no exception noted in the policy. It's a selfish statement from a selfish elitist organization. No wonder they are having membership problems of late.

[Duster]

Buckfever says..... I think everyone agrees that a crossbow is not a bow.

If they do they have a serious misunderstanding of the english language. Read slowly the second syllable of the word Cross-Bow. Not crossgun as some would like you to believe.

[gwhilikerz]

buckfever,
I wasn't going to post anyhing about the P&Y in this thread, but since you called me by name I suppose I should say something. P&Y is like a lot of national orgs. They draw their lines as to what they allow. Then, as their own members start crossing those lines, they make adjustments to keep their membership up. P&Y did it with compounds, then with % of let-off. They "stand firm" depending on which way the wind is blowing. Now it may be another category but in the future you will see P&Y recognise crossbow kills.
As far as that statement about not worrying about P&Y, here is why it is important for xbowers to not let their guard down.

"The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting season. Also, the club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons and the use of the crossbows for hunting be restricted to firearms seasons."

I'm not really sure but I think you are a lawyer. Here is what you wrote:
"As for the last paragraph or two, that also doesn't make any difference. They simply don't want crossbows to be included in "archery seasons". This certainly doesn't mean that there can't be a "crossbow season" that is exactly the same as an archery season."
These two statements just go to show what lengths some will go to in order to maintain their own selfish "hunting season". Even an old country boy can see that P&Y and you really want to outlaw xbows, or any other weapon, from YOUR season. But at the same time you want to be sure YOU can use your weapon in everyone else's season.

[Willie]

Buckfever,

I really don't care what rules they have for their contest to see who has the biggest.

That is strictly up to them.

Where the proverbial poopy hits the fan with me is when they make statements about taking away hunting from people THAT ARE ALREADY HUNTING in a designated season. They would rather people quit hunting than hunt with or take up a crossbow. They do not make any distinction even for the physically challenged hunters. Sure sounds anti-hunting to me.

Friends like that we don't need any enemies. The ARFs must be laughing out of their ......

Yes, the P & Y retrictions have been followed by some states' DNRs. Washington comes to mind real quick where the DNR eastablished no compound could have more than a 65% let off.

[Bowcrazy]

Most people on this site walk so far back in the shadow of people like Glenn St. Charles that it isn't even funny.

[Multidigits]

Likewise, there's a lot of people outside of those shadows living with prejudice opinions of others and with myths of old that have been dispelled long ago. I'd stay in the shadows too if I was one of those.

[shogan]

Man yall are a philosophical bunch of hunters. Too much time around the campfire and not enough time getting ready for next season.

I have my new Bow coming and I can't wait to use it.

I probably need to buy some more arrows and brodheads to go with my new bow. Until it uses and gun powder it's still a bow to me.

By the way Poop&Young has increased the left off allowed.

Actually if I were them I would have a section for Recurve, Compound, and Crossbow. Just like the fish books have records for different weight lines. But it makes no matter to me. I'll never send them a dime regardless because I don't need a book to tell me my buck is plenty big.

[Willie]

By the way Poop&Young has increased the left off allowed.



No.

They ELIMINATED the rule altogether.

Even the Concept99 with 99% let off is P & Y eligible - with an asterisk *....

Which at one time the P & Y said anything 90% and over was "akin to a vertical crossbow".

So they allow a vertcial bow that is "akin to a vertical crossbow" for their record l keeping but they are raising a stink about crossbows already being in archery season. Ain't that a hoot?

[Multidigits]

One thing for sure, this isn't about creating elitist legends. It's about more oppurtunity for the average hunter. When St. Charles founded the P & Y Club, we were in a restoration phase of deer management. We're way past that now in all the states that have WT deer. It's now the maintance phase,and crossbow has it's days coming, much to the displeasure of the elitist.

[buckfever]

Nope, you read it wrong. It says the crossbow shouldn't be used in any bowhunting season. Crossbow hunting is also bowhunting, even if you don't consider the crossbow to be a bow. It's still has a bow as part of the mechanizism and it shoots an arrow. It's part of bowhunting and has it's place. The P & Y theory also discrimantes against handicap hunters, as there is no exception noted in the policy. It's a selfish statement from a selfish elitist organization. No wonder they are having membership problems of late.

Yeah, upon re-reading, I saw that P&Y did state that xbows should be limited to gun season. I guess that takes us back to square one. When I originally read it, I didn't see that and thought they were just saying that a crossbow is not a bow (which IS true by KDFWR regulatory definition), and that they weren't going to recognize crossbow kills in their record books. I agree that weapons/seasons exceptions should be made for handicapped hunters (and I'd bet that P&Y would acknowledge this even though it's not recognized in this particular policy stmt).

[joekat46]

In 1993 the friend/landowner where I hunt in Meigs County, Ohio took a crossbow buck with a raw score (never went any further) of about 176. He, at first, was disappointed it couldn't be sent to P&Y. After about every other friend and fellow hunter in his area said, "who really cares" he got over it. He didn't know he had to pay for the privilege of getting his kill listed anyway. The older you get the less this "trophy recognition" seems to mean. I would almost bet that after being an active participant in this fight I could accurately guess the age group of many of the other participants, blank bios or not.

If the P&Y does not recognize a crossbow shot deer taken by a disabled hunter could they be sued under the ADA Act? Something for you admitted and undercover attorneys to research.

[Willie]

P&Y to Host 2005 Bowhunting Summit (1/28/2005 10:54:06 AM)

A National Bowhunting Summit will be hosted and faciliated by the Pope and Young Club April 17 and 18 at the University Plaza Hotel in Springfield, Missouri. The event will immediately follow the Club's 24th Biennium Convention, to be held April 14-16 at the same location.

Designed specifically for the state-level and provincial-level bowhunting organizations, the purpose of the Summit is to share information and strategies on bowhunting issues among the representatives of the attending groups.

Although much of the agenda will be set by the organizations themselves, one of the major issues that will be addressed at the Summit is the increased thrust by the anti-hunting movement to ban or sharply curtail bowhunting in the United States. This as the result of the recent merge of the Humane Society of the United States and the Fund For Animals, with their expressed intent of substantially stepping up efforts against bowhunting. The U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance will lead the session on this vitally important subject.

Another major issue that will be an agenda item is that of effectively combating the ever-increasing effort by a segment of the archery industry to put crossbows into bowhunting-only seasons.

Willie - Now is that not a “cut your nose off to spite your face” remark?

Here the P & Y and ALL of bowhunting will be needing ALL the help we can get to stave off this organized effort by the ARFs and the P & Y are saying "we don’t want any crossbowers help".

IMO - That is pretty short sighted. They would rather go down in flames than have any crossbowers any where help out.

That is contrary to the Achery Trade Association backed Bowhunting Preservation Alliance goals. How do they rectify that?

[buckfever]

In 1993 the friend/landowner where I hunt in Meigs County, Ohio took a crossbow buck with a raw score (never went any further) of about 176. He, at first, was disappointed it couldn't be sent to P&Y. After about every other friend and fellow hunter in his area said, "who really cares" he got over it. He didn't know he had to pay for the privilege of getting his kill listed anyway. The older you get the less this "trophy recognition" seems to mean. I would almost bet that after being an active participant in this fight I could accurately guess the age group of many of the other participants, blank bios or not.

If the P&Y does not recognize a crossbow shot deer taken by a disabled hunter could they be sued under the ADA Act? Something for you admitted and undercover attorneys to research.

Absolutely, who cares what P&Y recognizes. Lots of people never enter any deer b/c it's not a competition, and who really cares whether somebody else recognizes YOUR deer. As for your second question, there is no need to research the ADA act, it doesn't apply.

[Willie]

Absolutely, who cares what P&Y recognizes. Lots of people never enter any deer b/c it's not a competition, and who really cares whether somebody else recognizes YOUR deer. As for your second question, there is no need to research the ADA act, it doesn't apply.

But it does apply to states and the way they have their seasons set up for the physically challenged, doesn't it?

There are only about 3 left (and they are being sued ) now that don't allow the physically challenged individuals the right to use a crossbow in archery season.

I do agree that there are a lot more P & Y qualifiers that are NOT in the book than there are ones in the book. Who wants to pay $25 just to see their name in print?

[buckfever]

But it does apply to states and the way they have their seasons set up for the physically challenged, doesn't it?

There are only about 3 left (and they are being sued ) now that don't allow the physically challenged individuals the right to use a crossbow in archery season.

I do agree that there are a lot more P & Y qualifiers that are NOT in the book than there are ones in the book. Who wants to pay $25 just to see their name in print?

I'm not sure if the ADA was designed or promulgated for this purpose, but it wouldn't surprise me either way. In my opinion, even if the ADA is not applicable, it is entirely appropriate state policy to give handicapped and disabled people the same access as non-handicapped individuals.

[Willie]

I'm not sure if the ADA was designed or promulgated for this purpose, but it wouldn't surprise me either way. In my opinion, even if the ADA is not applicable, it is entirely appropriate state policy to give handicapped and disabled people the same access as non-handicapped individuals.


The Alliance for Disabled Sportsmen Rights

Using the Americans with Disabilities Act to end discrimination in the woods.

http://www.disabledrights.org/

[buckfever]

The Alliance for Disabled Sportsmen Rights

Using the Americans with Disabilities Act to end discrimination in the woods.

http://www.disabledrights.org/

Well, that's great that the ADSR is trying to even the playing field for disabled sportsmen, but just because this "grass-roots organization" says the ADA applies on their website doesn't necessarily make it true. I don't know whether it does or doesn't apply, and this website actually leads me to believe that they are simply using ADA complaints as a tool to draw attention to the inequities facing disabled hunters. From what I read, it appears that one state changed its regs to accomodate handicapped hunters after a disabled hunter filed a complaint under the ADA. Nowhere does that website say that a court found that the ADA applied to general hunting regulations which apply to every hunting situation on public and private land. It's a little more complex than that, but I applaud their efforts.

And please don't misquote this to say I have no compassion for disabled people. My mother has MS and has been deteriorating in a wheelchair since I was 8 yrs old.

[Willie]

I think the ADA has been overplayed in some instances and this could be one of them.

Maybe just the threat of filing a complaint is/was enough.

BTW- My wife also has MS. She has had it for about 28 years. Fortunately she has not gotten any worse from it. She walks with a limp, uses a cane and tires easily. Even with the MS I can’t keep up with her.

When she was diagnosed I took her to the Texas Medical Center in Houston Texas to see a Doctor Rivera that specialized in MS. She had 4 treatments over the course of three years and we 'think' that is what stopped the MS from getting worse.

Of course with MS being such a strange disease and affecting different people in different ways it could that or who knows.

Prayers for your mom..

[buckfever]

I think the ADA has been overplayed in some instances and this could be one of them.

Maybe just the threat of filing a complaint is/was enough.

BTW- My wife also has MS. She has had it for about 28 years. Fortunately she has not gotten any worse from it. She walks with a limp, uses a cane and tires easily. Even with the MS I can’t keep up with her.

When she was diagnosed I took her to the Texas Medical Center in Houston Texas to see a Doctor Rivera that specialized in MS. She had 4 treatments over the course of three years and we 'think' that is what stopped the MS from getting worse.

Of course with MS being such a strange disease and affecting different people in different ways it could that or who knows.

Prayers for your mom..


Thank you. Same for your wife. It is a truly dreadful, dehabilitating disease that affects every person uniquely. The progresses in treatment have certainly helped many MS victims stave off the disease's "progressive bouts", and I think they're getting much closer to identifying the cause, but it probably won't be in time to save my Mother. I wish you well in the battle. Stay strong.

[arshooter]

i will not hunt with a crossbow but nor i disagree with it pick your own apple doesnt matter to me but if im wrong wont b @ c recognize those deer i have no problem with the x bow but i think there is a lil difference in the the harvest method everyones got to admit a compound or recurve is more difficult to shoot maybe pope and young should consider a new category ???i ve stayed away for awhile cause i was tired of hearing all the x bow talk anyways its here and i think the number of hunters wont increase that much not many people can deal with them skeeters in sept. lmao but anyways goodhuntin to all compound recurve long bow x bow .......

[gwhilikerz]

Thank you arshooter, and may your next buck be a P&Y biggun.

[grinder]

guys, if you don't like pope and young rules, you don't have to play by them, start a crossbow trophy club if you are looking for recognition. you can't force you're will on them. its like forceing a boy scout troop to accept a girl in the club, IT JUST AIN"T RIGHT ! i know in todays politically correct society we are supposed to bow to those that cry foul, but jeeze, if i didn't feel welcome, i would not play

[grinder]

One thing for sure, this isn't about creating elitist legends. It's about more oppurtunity for the average hunter. When St. Charles founded the P & Y Club, we were in a restoration phase of deer management. We're way past that now in all the states that have WT deer. It's now the maintance phase,and crossbow has it's days coming, much to the displeasure of the elitist.
multi, how do you say we need the x-bow for maintenance, when you have earlier posted it will not affect the harvest? have you forgotten you're earlier posts? it seems to be which ever is handiest for you at the moment.

[gwhilikerz]

guys, if you don't like pope and young rules, you don't have to play by them, start a crossbow trophy club if you are looking for recognition. you can't force you're will on them. its like forceing a boy scout troop to accept a girl in the club, IT JUST AIN"T RIGHT ! i know in todays politically correct society we are supposed to bow to those that cry foul, but jeeze, if i didn't feel welcome, i would not play
grinder are you trying to change the focus away from the real question. We are not trying to change P&Y. I for one don't give a hang about that elitist group. The problem is that several groups are trying to shoot down our ability to hunt with crossbows. P&Y is on record as beingg one of those. Tell me, are you pro or con on xbows?:)

[Willie]

guys, if you don't like pope and young rules, you don't have to play by them, start a crossbow trophy club if you are looking for recognition................

Grinder,

I don't think anyone on here said that the P & Y club should do this or that about their CLUB'S rules. It is their little contest and they can run it any which way they want. Even make it a longbow/recurve/selfbow only if that is their desire.

Where the poop hits the fan with us is when they try to impose their will on states decisions on what hunting tool they will allow to be used when for hunting and management of deer.

Even up to and including the part about banning crossbows from season that they have enjoyed for as a long as 29 years in one state. They make no distinction about the physically challenged individuals that have to use a crossbow to even participate in the archery season.

I know that the word "elitist" has been brandished around a lot on here but this is a PRIME example of the "elitism" we have discussed.

I cannot help but call ANY group that wants to get rid of an already legal hunting tool as ANTI-HUNTING. It fits....

[aceoky]

Willie good points!

Yet once again; they show NO data or facts to support their "reasons"????? I couldn't care less about their "rules" or their book! Nor being "PC" all too often we get caught up in the "PC" when it's not "fitting" to "go along" with it' and I for one can't agree with any reason(s) to do so!

BTW B&C still takes crossbow entries anyway(don't they?)

Again their "self-serving" attitude, and eliminating disabled hunters from the x-bow, will only hurt them in the "long run", and I'll bet soon there will be a "double **" entry for 'em soon enough! :D

How many of "us" hunt to be in any "book"??? I can think of many much better reasons!

[Willie]

B & C , SCI and Buckmasters all take crossbow entries.

The American Crossbow Federation is in the process of working on a book of their own.

Speaking of B & C , SCI and Buckmasters - NONE of them try and impose any of their rules on the state DNRS and F & W. They don't attempt to tell the state DNRS and F & W what hunting tool should or should not be allowed in ANY season. They think that is best left up to the state DNRS and F & W to decide how to manage their game and hunter opportunities..

What gives the P & Y the authority to try and impose their will on us at our state levels??

Elitist snobs...

[grinder]

i could really care less about pope and young myself, i figure i'll never have one in the books, and don't really care.to me pope and young was always a contest between hunters. i hunt for me and me only. if the x-bow law makes it my hunting will not be changed. am i for it? no. just because what is in use is working, and i don't really see a reason to change it. "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is my motto. its funny that some posted earlier that the x-bow will not change the harvest, then post that its needed as a management tool? sounds like double talk. pick one or the other, don't straddle the fence one foot on each side and raise the appropriate foot according to who's looking. lets keep it honest, instead of name calling and rhetoric.

[Willie]

Grinder ,

I said - "They think that is best left up to the state DNRS and F & W to decide how to manage their game and hunter opportunities..

BTW- Every dead deer is counted in game management no matter what killed it.

Every hunting tool that is legal gives the biologists just one more tool to use in managing deer.

[DJH]

Gentlemen - It would appear that the fine folks of the Pope and Young Club have taken what they deem to be the "high ground" on the the crossbow issue. I can't say that I am surprised, but I am very disappointed by their anti-hunting attitude. If they are the best our sport has to offer, then our hunting future and we as hunters are truly in deep "poop and dung".

[grinder]

i agree, also the american crossbow federation from mn would be overstepping its bounds if it became involved in KDFW . true?

[grinder]

Grinder ,

I said - "They think that is best left up to the state DNRS and F & W to decide how to manage their game and hunter opportunities..

BTW- Every dead deer is counted in game management no matter what killed it.

Every hunting tool that is legal gives the biologists just one more tool to use in managing deer.
if the herd needs managing ,yes they should, but it was clearly stated that the herd was in check, and this was purely a social issue. to me that means all lic deer and turkey hunters should have a say

[Multidigits]

multi, how do you say we need the x-bow for maintenance, when you have earlier posted it will not affect the harvest? have you forgotten you're earlier posts? it seems to be which ever is handiest for you at the moment.

The deer herd is still growing, hunter numbers aren't. This will increase hunter numbers, and those hunters will kill deer and turkeys at the same rate as archery hunters. It's not a lot, but it's some. It won't destory any game populations, but will help in problem archery only areas, and overall maintenance of the herd. The statement is accurate, and I'm well aware of what
I've posted in the past.

[grinder]

at the FW meeting mar 4 it was stated this was strictly a social issue, not herd management. if the herd was getting out of hand i would be in favor, but its just not so.

[Multidigits]

Herd management...it's on going. Hunters barely met the goal last year. Next year crossbow hunters will help make sure it happens again.

[DJH]

Grinder - What don't you understand about the "AMERICAN" Crossbow Federation? Let's see, we have North America, South America and Central America. Is Kentucky in one of those Americas? I believe it is North America. Therefore you have asked a very silly question, haven't you? What a kidder!

[grinder]

Grinder - What don't you understand about the "AMERICAN" Crossbow Federation? Let's see, we have North America, South America and Central America. Is Kentucky in one of those Americas? I believe it is North America. Therefore you have asked a very silly question, haven't you? What a kidder!
what continent is pope and young in?

[DJH]

Grinder - You have got me! I'm not even sure what PLANET they are from based on their anti-hunting attitudes and arogant philosphies.

[shogan]

I would not waste my energy on them

[grinder]

Grinder - You have got me! I'm not even sure what PLANET they are from based on their anti-hunting attitudes and arogant philosphies.
ha good one! i do agree that ky wildlife policies should be decided only by ky sportsmen and ky wildlife com. not out of state organizations, out of state sportsman, equipment maufacturers, and especially out of state manufacturers, as one did at the mar 4 meeting. several othr folks did not get to speak while we sat and listened to him, one that clearly had monetary gains in mind. it was really intresting listening to him tell about how he did not have time to teach his boy to shoot a bow, so he was in favor of x-bows. it came off sounding like he could turn his boy loose with a crossbow. not good.

[Multidigits]

ha good one! i do agree that ky wildlife policies should be decided only by ky sportsmen and ky wildlife com. not out of state organizations, out of state sportsman, equipment maufacturers, and especially out of state manufacturers, as one did at the mar 4 meeting. several othr folks did not get to speak while we sat and listened to him, one that clearly had monetary gains in mind. it was really intresting listening to him tell about how he did not have time to teach his boy to shoot a bow, so he was in favor of x-bows. it came off sounding like he could turn his boy loose with a crossbow. not good.

The guy your referring to was a sales rep., and he offered insight into what the change might do for the economy as well as what other states were doing. And out of state comments are welcome, same as residents. In Ky., you can't "turn your boy loose" with anything, bow or not, so that's not a factor.

[grinder]

and why should out of staters have any say?

[Multidigits]

Because Kentucky sells out of state hunting licenses. The state owns the deer and the turkeys, and they choose to sell some of them to NR hunters. That's life in the big city. And some folks from Ky. travel to other states and hunt as well.

[gwhilikerz]

I don't have any problem with NR's having their say in Ky wildlife issues. Often those guys are in a better position or more qualified to see the variables of a problem and offer solutions that the resident may not be aware of. Besieds that, most NR's are nice guys who take hunting very seriously and want what is best for the game and the hunters in the states they visit. And regardless of those "tales" we've all heard and spread about those " out of state hunters on the next farm killing everything in sight" I haven't found that to be the case. Usually those on the next farm are Resident hunters more interested in shooting their guns and partying than hunting. Ok, I'll stop here:)