Public Lands

[schuyler olt]

Elsewhere I noticed some discussion about WMA's, their expansion and management, and other public land issues. That's an excellant topic, worthy of discussion, and I hope it won't get morphed into xbows.

As some of you know, in 2001 I served on the Governor's Smart Growth Task Force, and Chaired its Agriculture, Wildlife and Environmental Committee. The KDFWR was the liason agency assigned by the Governor to assist us. The Task Force held 14 public hearings across the state, and our Committee met on a number of occassions. While the Task Force was comprised of 35 persons, the AWE committee I chaired had numerous other members who were not on the Task Force. Among them was Rollie Beers, then the Pres of the LKS. Our report and recommendations were published September 21, 2001. The AWE section of the Report alone was 50 pages.

Among funding options we identified a dedicated portion of sales taxes (the Missouri Model), real estate transfer taxes, higher cigarette taxes, a surcharge on electricity generated in Kentucky and consumed out-of-state, and continued suppert of the Conservation and Reinvestment Act.

We further recommended the development of a strategic plan for land acquisitin from willing sellers, tax credits for public use of private land and for conservation easements (We old dumb hillbillys were four years ahead of the RMEF on this one :-) ), development of a Kentucky Conservation Security Act, and various methodologies to enhance the economic viability of family farms.

The specific land acquisition piece begins on page 36.

The bottom line is that we determined, with a lot of input from inside the Governor's Office, that the cost to bring us just to the norm of eastern states with repect to amounts of public land was one BILLION dollars, and we actually explored the feasibility of a ten year plan of $100,000,000 per year. Had we achieved the bottle bill, the solid waste bill, a dedicated sales tax and the electric surcharge, we probably would have gotten very close, although we ultimately felt that $50,000,000 over 20 years was probably more politically realistic. I should point out, however, that the actual Report does not contain those numbers.

Obviously,the acquisition of public lands and the acquisition of rights to publicly use private are complex legal, social and financial issues. No one single strategy or one single funding source will get the job accomplished. We have dug ourselves a deep hole, and it will take a long time and a huge amount of money to get there. It will absolutely take close teamwork, and we will need to develop many public-private partnerships. One example of that is the RMEF program that David Ledford is involved with. Obviously, it doesn't get near the total we need, but it is a very laudable, solid start which will hopefully serve as a catalyst for other similar programs.

WMA user fees will raise so little money in the overall scheme of things that they have very little financial impact. However, we may want to explore them from the message they send--that we are all in this together, and everyone is making an effort and playing a role. After all, the March of Dimes has raised a substantial sum a dime at a time. So no idea out there is stupid, even if the economic impact is small, because everyone is triggered by different things. The more ways we can bring people into the overall project, the more people we involve, and that's a very good thing.

By the way, the support from the KDFWR on this was absolutely outstanding, particularly Lyn Cunningham.

Anyway, thought you might be interested.

[MD501]

and the posturing begins, good luck in your endeavor. also as ctb used to say the wma user fee is just a small piece of the pie, but the last time i checked if you put all of the small pieces together they will add up. the user fee makes the paying sportsman feel better because they have footed the bill for ever. its about time that everyone who enjoys or uses our wma or wildlife in general help pay the bills

[Multidigits]

If you actually look into what some other states with as many or more hunters than we have, then we have a lot of public lands now. I'm not saying we couldn't use more, sure we could. But what we really need is better overall management of what we have today. What we also need is a plan to encourage farmers to open up private lands through incentive programs such as found in Kansas and much of the west--walk-in public access on quality farmed acres.


As for user fees, they need to apply to all, be a modest fee, and the money used on the WMA it's generated from. Site specific funding, going back into the WMA it came from. Improve the game management for all species, not just elk. Improve the carrying capacity to provide more oppurtunity for those using them.
Then we need to find limited use areas with our problem areas. These can come from mant forms and many shapes. For example, close down public parks and state owned areas for a day or two and have a goose hunt. that's one example. We already hunt deer on some of these areas. Some of these areas could be archery only areas, and could help with the micro-management that we need to improve our deer herds. More and more, we see urban turkeys. We need to let people hunt these turkeys where they can. And there's plenty of places where they can with a little thought.

Since I've been involved with the politics of the Dept. and the LKS and through the Cyberhunter's, I've yet to see anything positive come from the many task forces that we;ve been in on. We have seen a lot of power point demos, but not much action. Why have these idea brainstorming sessions and not do some of the things that come up?

[Valley Station]

With Frankfort's unbeleivable mishandling, boondoggling of possible land acquisition of Dunaway Tract adjoining Yellowbanks WMA, 2-years ago, I had lost all confidence in future acquisitions. What a loss.
However, with "new management" maybe there is hope for the future.

[elkguy]

Hey gang,

I saw my name posted, so of course I am risking letting myself get sucked into the vortex here.

Niether I nor anybody at RMEF ever claimed to be the creative genius that came up with the original concept of $$ for land acquisition and/or conservation easements. Being from East Tennessee, I always expect "hillbillys" to be ahead of the curve.

I would love to see a copy of that report from 2001. It sounds really interesting.

Our RMEF conservation planning process and specific work will be focused in the 16-county elk restoration zone. That also just happens to be where the open land is. However, the strategies we develop and implement will have the potential to affect lands across the entire state. Over the next few weeks, we are going to line out our efforts to actually achieve success in getting $$ for land acquisition, tax credits for conservation easements, and to help create mechanisms for public hunting on private lands like Multidigits described. The RMEF has been or will be working with Farm Bureau, the forest products industry, the coal industry, the US Forest Service, and other conservation groups to pull together a plan of attack. We are working with the Commerce Secretary to create a state recreation plan, much like his state energy plan. This will help outline needs for habitat conservation.

Specific projects we are working on now:
1. Facilitated the creation of a new 54,000-acre WMA in east KY. It will be open to all hunting, all year long. Landowner is getting only 2 elk tags, as there are no elk on most of this property. This is not a done deal yet, but it is close.
2. Working to implement $1.2 million worth of habitat improvement projects in East KY. With KDFWR, we now have a staff person in place. Our primary projects will be to remove fescue and serecea and plant native grasses, desirbale cool season forages, and trees.
3. Working to purchase an 18,000-acre tract adjacent to the Daniel Boone National Forest. We would then transfer it to the forest for public access.
4. Working to purchase a 1,200-acre tract adjacent to the DBNF.
5. June 23 we will host a Summit in Louisville with the department of Interior and OSM and the coal industry to change reclamation guidelines, provide incentives for good habitat creation, and to provide good technical assistance. Imagine every coal mine being reclaimed in the future to create great wildlife habitat.
6. Working to facilitate several other WMA agreements with industrial landowners. Could bring in tens of thousands of acres over the next 2 years.

In closing, the RMEF is working on high impact, heavy leverage strategies that can affect entire landscapes, not just spots on a map. That is what we do. We welcome new members and any help that any group or anybody wants to give.

David Ledford
RMEF
davidrmef@alltel.net

[elkguy]

I will add one more comment. As soon as we win the war on terror and the stock market hits 12,000, a lot of this stuff will get much easier.

[schuyler olt]

And gasoline goes down to a price that doesn't cause a panic attack. I put $10 in my truck the other day--I've seen longer NASCAR pitstops.

[Birdman]

Hopefully some if not all of these practices will take place after your appointment . ;) At that time the league stands ready to help in anyway possible. We hoped to help David but I haven't heard from him in several months. :rolleyes: David where have you been? And how can we be of assiistance? The clock is ticking.

[elkguy]

Hey Ronnie,

I'm not ignoring you. I've just gotten bogged down for about 3 months with travel, conventions, getting prepared for this June mining summit, the flu, etc. I tried calling you from an airport terminal one day and did not get any answer or an answering machine.

You have not missed anything on the planning process either. I am going to write up a draft of the total plan and then we will bring it to the entire group for comments and input. We hope to convene the entire group within the next 6 to 8 weeks. The biggest challenge has been trying to not miss good opportunities for conservation while I was busy writing a plan. I have found myself getting into the implementation phase before the plan is even finished. As soon as I clone myself I'll be able to get more done.

Call me.

606-330-0179

Dave

[Multidigits]

Well, what can we say about David's comments, other than we need more land and it needs to be all over Ky., not just in the elk zone. WE sure hope that amy and all new lands aren't for the elk, or that we spend huge sums of money for one species again and neglect others. We've done that before with Ballard WMA and see the results now. It's a hard cycle to break when the dynamics change and the game doesn't cooperate any longer. I for one think we'll be a lot better off with a walk-in provate lands program then adding more Dept. owned WMAs. Dollars spent verses the number of use days will be higher and the effect will be better served?

[elkguy]

This is that vortex that I refuse to be sucked into.

[BOBCAT]

ELKGUY, don't get sucked into a vortex here,but isn't is as important to provide a place that " average joe " in any part of the state can use on a daily basis compared to pouring all monies and resources into a plan that only a couple of hundred of sportsmen can utilize for part of the year ? and remember not all of those " couple hundred sportsmen" are Kentuckians. Not that that matters to the KDFWR

[Multidigits]

This is that vortex that I refuse to be sucked into.

Ignoring the problem and hoping it'll go away is nothing new, it's one of the reasons we're having this discussion.

The problem is that we beg people to come here and hunt, and spend thousands trying to figure ways to keep people hunting, but we want to ignore the needs that prevent all of it from happening.

David you need to realize that your deeply involved in a good project, but only a few of the sportsmen in Ky. will ever benefit from the endevor. You need to look outside the box you've created.

[elkguy]

Bobcat,

Go read post number 5 again. That is my first on this thread. It addresses exactly what you want.

[schuyler olt]

David is correct. The initiative would accomplish all-species use, not just elk hunting. Be careful not to confuse it with the lease the KDFWR was to enter into to gain access to that one property, which has to be elk only because of other pre-existing game leases. As to walk-in private vis a vis WMAs, we probably should think in terms of both, not an either/or.

[Multidigits]

No doubt, the point is that Eastern Kentucky already has enough public land, far more than any other region in the state. It's just not where the elk want to be, so to the Dept. it's basicly useless. We need lands away from Eastern Kentucky as well. In fact, we're losing lands away at about the same rate that we aquire in Eastern Ky. Nobody is saying what David is pushing is a bad thing, it's just not the answer to the overall problem.

[elkguy]

Grass is green and the sky is blue when it is not cloudy and it is day time.

[uplandchessies]

Same rhetoric, same bottom line! WMA management will stay the stagnant course -- unless it benefits elk, turkey or deer -- and small game will continue to be an afterthought.

[Multidigits]

Grass is green and the sky is blue when it is not cloudy and it is day time.

Cute David, typical response, but cute.......that's really what we've learned to expect. Hopefully, that will change and the focus will too.

[turk2di]

Thanks Sky for the informative piece. Obviously land aquisition is paramount, in terms of a place to hunt and the hunter retention it would create. Declining hunter numbers is corelated to declining available area's to hunt. Solving one goes along way in solving the other. Comming about that end however will no doubt be a brain tweazer and lookin at other models across the nation is prudent. Everyone has thier opinions on how this can be done. For me, Peabody is paramount, but my efforts may be to late as the WMA dwindles year after year! I know it's Peabody's ground to do with what they want and we should be estatic that we ever got to hunt it anyway, i just wished we were into discussions with them to obtain first option rights on any land being considered for sale, or lease to individuals!n It's not to late i hope.

[Birdman]

Upland, I have ask you along with several others that post on this site to get involved with the Kentucky Grouse Hunters. It's taken several years, but work is going on, on our WMA's, yes it's slow and it will take years to accomplish what should have happened years ago. What we need at this point is people like yourself getting involved with groups and working to move this process along. What David is doing has very little or nothing to do with our WMA's, or DFWLR. Unless I'm mistaken there's very little department money going into his work (I stand to be corrected). I also understand that the money spent and work being done will help all species. This only gives the remainder of the state more department money to work with on other properties though out the state. When we started this adventure (KY. Grouse Hunters) we were hammered not only from the commission, but from a large group of sportsmen though out the state. We held our ground and groups started realizing what we were asking for helped all species. This started 6 years ago. We now have 7 different WMA's with work going on for "quote" small game. With one long term study and planning going on, on Paintsville Lake in conjunction with the corp of Engineers and the department. Gentlemen, don't blame David because our WMA's doesn't have good small game habitat, which provides good habitat for all species. If you need someone to blame, LOOK IN THE MIRROR. And if you really what our WMA's to improve, join the Kentucky Grouse Hunters. This group started the small game push and will continue to do so. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings but facts are facts. There will be a new COACH in town soon, we need to make sure WE'RE IN THE STARTING LINE UP.

[Multidigits]

We're doing better. The places with elk and grouse are getting attention. Other areas have shrunk in size and have seen no improvement in habitat. We need an overall policy of change, and overall improvement, not just greasing the squeakie wheel reactions.

[mossyhorns]

Several years ago we had all this Westvaco timberland in W. KY that was open to public hunting with the purchase of a Westvaco permit. Westvaco did nothing but cut trees on the properties from time to time and planted pine stands. KDFWR did nothing on these properties. The hunting was great and it was easy to find places that weren't crowded. Even though the properties were open to deer and turkey hunters throughout the statewide seasons, the properties continued to produce good harvest numbers year after year.

Contrast this with the state owned properties that are intensely managed, expensive, and provide very little opportunity to the hunting public who must also jump through hoops for the privilege of hunting these tracts.

Yeah, I know timber company lands are going the way of the dinosaur, but I find it hard to argue for more state-owned land in light of the quality of our current state-owned lands.

[gwhilikerz]

Several years ago we had all this Westvaco timberland in W. KY that was open to public hunting with the purchase of a Westvaco permit. Westvaco did nothing but cut trees on the properties from time to time and planted pine stands. KDFWR did nothing on these properties. The hunting was great and it was easy to find places that weren't crowded. Even though the properties were open to deer and turkey hunters throughout the statewide seasons, the properties continued to produce good harvest numbers year after year.

Contrast this with the state owned properties that are intensely managed, expensive, and provide very little opportunity to the hunting public who must also jump through hoops for the privilege of hunting these tracts.

Yeah, I know timber company lands are going the way of the dinosaur, but I find it hard to argue for more state-owned land in light of the quality of our current state-owned lands.
Where are the Westvaco lands today? Are those lands still open to hunting? The answers to these questions may well show you why we need "more state-owned land" .

[turk2di]

Where are the Westvaco lands today? Are those lands still open to hunting? The answers to these questions may well show you why we need "more state-owned land" .
Exactly;) It goes on in other states as well. Timber Co's & coal propertys are unloading land they no longer need. Who is scooping it up. Hunt clubs, individuald with deep pockets pooling thier money and leasing out ground formerly available to the public. Westvaco is now gone. Peabody is shrinking. If u thought Peabody has been crowded the past few years, just wait until we all cram in there 2gether due to a smaller map! Don't know why, but it looks like Gilbraltar is off this springs list:mad:

[mossyhorns]

You are correct about Westvaco. KY could have bought or leased a wad of that with that 29 to 32 million they have sitting around.

My point is that hunting was better and opportunities were greater on land that the Dept. didn't manage.

[Birdman]

Why Did We Lose Westvaco? I thought the trade on Peabody gave us additional property.

[grinder]

central ky could definately use some more public hunting land. its an hour and a half drive to anything where i live. i guess it will take some old codger to die donating a huge tract of land to get one started though.

[Birdman]

Where do you live?

[Multidigits]

The state has purchased 900 acres on clear creek. It runs from hwy 109 toward hwy 502.boat ramp coming soon.

they have also purchased 1200 acres along the pond river in mulenberg and hopkins county. It is between white city and the west ky parkway.the 1200 acres will be uder the peabody wma . so you will need the $12.50 perment.

[turk2di]

Still no word on why Gilbraltar ain't showing up. Can we hunt it or not?

[Valley Station]

No, you can no longer hunt the Gibralter tract. No longer part of the Peabody WMA. See new map. NO...no....Not.

[uplandchessies]

Upland, I have ask you along with several others that post on this site to get involved with the Kentucky Grouse Hunters. It's taken several years, but work is going on, on our WMA's, yes it's slow and it will take years to accomplish what should have happened years ago. What we need at this point is people like yourself getting involved with groups and working to move this process along. What David is doing has very little or nothing to do with our WMA's, or DFWLR. Unless I'm mistaken there's very little department money going into his work (I stand to be corrected). I also understand that the money spent and work being done will help all species. This only gives the remainder of the state more department money to work with on other properties though out the state. When we started this adventure (KY. Grouse Hunters) we were hammered not only from the commission, but from a large group of sportsmen though out the state. We held our ground and groups started realizing what we were asking for helped all species. This started 6 years ago. We now have 7 different WMA's with work going on for "quote" small game. With one long term study and planning going on, on Paintsville Lake in conjunction with the corp of Engineers and the department. Gentlemen, don't blame David because our WMA's doesn't have good small game habitat, which provides good habitat for all species. If you need someone to blame, LOOK IN THE MIRROR. And if you really what our WMA's to improve, join the Kentucky Grouse Hunters. This group started the small game push and will continue to do so. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings but facts are facts. There will be a new COACH in town soon, we need to make sure WE'RE IN THE STARTING LINE UP.

Birdman,

Great to hear you are accomplishing some work on the WMA's, but are there plans for doing the same in Northern/Central Kentucky? Even though KGH's main focus is grouse and woodcock, is there work being done to enhance habitat for quail?

Considering I live in Northern Kentucky, what role do you see me playing? I'd be willing to join the Org and do what I can, but need to know a lot more. As for looking in the mirror for someone to blame; no, I won't put that weight on my shoulders. The dogs and I just finished our ninth hunting season together and Kentucky's dismal small game numbers and loss/lack of quality habitat was the rule before I even got into this arena.

Best,
Gary

[Birdman]

Steve Bonney and his group of merry men, cut on Fleming, Clay and Yatesville WMA's for woodcock the last two years. As for the northern counties I,m not sure what the plans are. That's where you could help not only the club(Ky. Gr. Hu.) but all small game hunters. Help identfiy areas in northern and central Ky. for areas to be improved. I know they are working in central and western Ky. on quail habitat and have been for the last four years. I'm not sure what the program is called that they're working under but work is being done. Eastern Ky. has very few areas that quail will flourish, most of which are located on properties that David is working on. Cuttings took place on several WMA's from Fleming to Cumberland last year. With your help and many others we should be able to identfiy areas throughout the state and work as a tight knit group to loby for work to take place on these designated areas. Scott Freidhoff is working with the corp on a pilot program, if this works as we hope it will WMA management will change dramatically. All game will benefit from his work, as it should be.

We are real close to forming a Lexington Chapter of the Ky. Grouse Hunters and there's nothing to say there can't be one in your area. I want to thank everyone across the state that has helped us on habitat improvement. The sad thing, we're just getting started, we need help and now is the time to take a huge step. Gentlemen, get on board, like GSP said the other night, this train is moving and picking up speed, get on board and help make a difference.

As for the mirror, we all need to check that baby out from time to time.

[uplandchessies]

Birdman,

Here's my e-mail -- uplandchessies@msn.con -- send me info, ask me questions or whatever else is on your mind.

I will say -- for starters -- that Mullins (in Kenton county) could use some work on woodcock habitat. The area was only fair a few years ago, but now the species is non-exsistent.

[Birdman]

I'll see what we can find out about this area. I'll be talking with a biologist today. I'll let you know what happens if anything. Thanks, and hopefully you and many others will join us (Kentucky Grouse Hunters).

[turk2di]

No, you can no longer hunt the Gibralter tract. No longer part of the Peabody WMA. See new map. NO...no....Not.
Welp, there that goes! What's up for removal next season? Commissioners, R U LISTENING:mad:

[Multidigits]

Looks like Lapland is coming up for sale. The Nature Conservancy may buy it. Hopefully, KYDFWR will take notice and make a bid.

[Birdman]

The only district up this summer is the fourth.

[Birdman]

What county is Lapland in? How large is Lapland? Who owns Lapland?

[Valley Station]

Watsyou mean Willis( Birdman),

"The only district up this summer is the fouth"??

[Multidigits]

Watsyou mean Willis( Birdman),

"The only district up this summer is the fouth"??

Birdman is referring to the Commission seats up for renewal this year.

[Birdman]

Multi do you have the answers to Lapland?

[Multidigits]

Yep, but I don't have enough money. I just sent Gassett an email about it. I told Tom about it in early March, so they may already be working on it?

[Birdman]

If you would send me the info, I may be able to help.

[Valley Station]

Multi,
Thanks. Wasn't thinking.Thought maybe it was a reference to some agreed upon order of district land acquisition scheme.
By the way, the "creek bottom behind your house" is open this weekend.

[grinder]

Where do you live?
harrodsburg

[Birdman]

grinder, isn't Cider Creek close to you? How far are you from London or Somerset? Good hunting in both those areas.

[grinder]

grinder, isn't Cider Creek close to you? How far are you from London or Somerset? Good hunting in both those areas.
london and somerset are a pretty good drive. i like the hunting west of here better.cedar creek is about a half hour away. i've asked if hunting is allowed, and got answers both ways. i need to call about it i guess, but i do know that there is very little land surrounding the lake, just a narrow strip around shoreline. whether or not KDFW ever plans on expanding this, i do not know. i think they do have restrictions on building houses along the shores, so maybe it is in the plans. you've got my curiousity piqued, i'll do some checking

[grinder]

oh yeah, cedar creek lake was built as a trophy bass lake, i think they're only intentions.

[Multidigits]

london and somerset are a pretty good drive. i like the hunting west of here better.cedar creek is about a half hour away. i've asked if hunting is allowed, and got answers both ways. i need to call about it i guess, but i do know that there is very little land surrounding the lake, just a narrow strip around shoreline. whether or not KDFW ever plans on expanding this, i do not know. i think they do have restrictions on building houses along the shores, so maybe it is in the plans. you've got my curiousity piqued, i'll do some checking

Hunting is allowed on Cedar Creek. Says so in the magazine article about the lakes in Ky. Afield.